From paulds at bu.edu Fri Jul 1 03:54:36 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:54:36 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050701035436.GB7258@prozac.horde.com> > Ah.. but how do you work in the subcomponent differences in the bare "hat"? > Certainly Fedora Legacy would like to use the base logo but be able to > add something to it to denote "legacy" at a glance. The same with Lots of patches? :) -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 05:43:46 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:43:46 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > So on that note... here is my somewhat less humorous attempt at a > draft for a reusable logo. > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/path3079.png > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Fedora-Logos.png this is something drawn about one year ago: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fedora_logo_hat.png I propose a wiki page where anybody can add his logo ideas (drawings) -- nicu From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 03:21:31 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:21:31 +1000 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews In-Reply-To: <1120017906.3700.19.camel@cassini.gathani.org> References: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1120017906.3700.19.camel@cassini.gathani.org> Message-ID: <1120188091.3772.187.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:05 +0800, Ditesh wrote: > To put it bluntly, the author's past articles have been bad (factual > errors, overall quality of review is not too good etc) even though the > OSS series is actually meant to be positive about FOSS software. Its positive, but bad, sadly > We could complain to the Raslan (the editor) but I doubt it'd help. Oh, editors have since changed. I think I'll just call Moreira or someone and see if we can sort kar seng out... -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 03:50:38 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:50:38 +0800 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120189838.3772.202.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more > > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I. > > There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have > ever heard of. Ubuntu (really) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 03:49:44 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:49:44 +0800 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120069162.10448.75.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> <1120068932.3216.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120069162.10448.75.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120189784.3772.200.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:19 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that > distinction > > > becomes moot as well. > > > > I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody > need, > > I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, > but > > that are not so many. > > this is another reason why we need to get moving on the grouping and > classification of packages in extras. We should loook at Popularity Contest (debian's popcon app) for this sort of thing -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 03:54:35 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:54:35 +0800 Subject: My take on the "rapid rise of Ubuntu" In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120190075.3772.207.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Frankly, he didn't do a very good job of this defense. Kind of a tough > defense to mount, actually, since the Ubuntu folks put together a tool > that pulled in Debian patches and inadvertently (one hopes) stripped the > names of the original contributors out of the change logs. That tool, hct, doesn't only pull from Debian. It also gladly reads Fedora/SuSE/gentoo/etc... it can read cvs, as well as from sources/srpms -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 03:52:17 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:52:17 +0800 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120189938.3772.204.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's > no reason to have two packaging standards. > > So best of luck to me. :) Autopackage? *grin* Well, join the freedesktop.org team and start working on packaging guideleines/standards for something unified Expect to see a lot of zealots along the way... -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 04:04:55 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:04:55 +0800 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <1120190695.3772.210.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 09:13 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > So maybe just the pins, awarded for excellence. Wear them on your > > Fedora > > ballcap brim, or your T-shirt, or hanging from your pierced left > > nipple. > > How does that idea feel to people? A bit less ugly-clique-ish? > > Here is an idea. Contributers get red felt Fedoras that are currently > available. Define contributors ? Those fedoras aren't cheap > Red Fedoras are rather noticeable in a crowd, and there is no mistaking > what project you come from, and then the pins have a certain reference > and meaning. True, but they also get airport security to look at you funny, and on occassion it doens't really look smart (okay, it'd be smarter to pack it in checked luggage) > Thoughts? I'm pimpin in the black trenchcoat and red fedora ;-) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 07:58:09 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:58:09 +0800 Subject: Meetings Message-ID: <1120204690.3772.219.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Hey all, I got on a plane, got off, took a day's break from email and saw >120 messages. I was impressed This all suggests to me that this group is alive and kicking and we're reading for a meeting. And people should start stepping up So for our inagural meeting (to which time we ought to decide for), let's discuss: 1. Our goals (greg has suggested "explain, promote and recruit for individual Fedora projects.") 2. A logo competition - have a panel to decide on (non-)goat-like content 3. Swag/goodies - what do we want, after we've achieved (2) 4. How do we reward contributors - who is a contributor? - what levels do we have... - how do we give away (3) conveniently So, when's everyone free for a meeting? I've started travelling again, so err, I'm definitely going to have the last say on a good meeting time/date :) Open for suggestions, so shoot! -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jul 1 04:09:24 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:09:24 +0800 Subject: Fedora Boot for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120190964.3772.212.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Now that FUDCon2 is over, and we've pretty much decided to not have a > FUDCon3 in SF can we put some serious resources into planning the > Fedora > Booth for LWCE:SF? It ain't over till the fat lady sings (okay, Jack's a man and he isn't a fat lady) All that aside, want to keep us updated about your status with regards to talking about FUDCon 3 in San Francisco? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jul 1 12:20:06 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:20:06 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120189838.3772.202.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> <1120189838.3772.202.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1120220406.28906.30.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:50 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more > > > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I. > > > > There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have > > ever heard of. > > Ubuntu > > (really) They haven't released an enterprise-targeted distro yet. -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 13:00:42 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:00:42 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > this is something drawn about one year ago: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fedora_logo_hat.png Sadly, its been deemed that anything with a hat is going to be unacceptable. We need to get a bit more abstract. My suggestion is we have some sort of brainstorming excersize where all we do is come up with a bunch of words or phrases that describe fedora the project, and then go back and try to sketch out an icon to match something in that word/concept association list. Without some sort of new focus, we are going to keep circling around "hats" because its just too damn obvious. -jef From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 13:37:16 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:37:16 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >>this is something drawn about one year ago: >>http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fedora_logo_hat.png > > > Sadly, its been deemed that anything with a hat is going to be unacceptable. > We need to get a bit more abstract. I understand the reasoning for "no hat" (this does not means I agree) but this have not stopped me to try a different hat, a more abstract one: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/simple_hat.png > My suggestion is we have some sort of brainstorming excersize where > all we do is come up with a bunch of words or phrases that describe > fedora the project, and then go back and try to sketch out an icon to > match something in that word/concept association list. Without some > sort of new focus, we are going to keep circling around "hats" because > its just too damn obvious. Well, no hat, no mascot, no fun. I believe a logo should be fun, something people will *want* to put on their wallpaper, t-shirt, cap etc. I expect if the official logo will not be fun enough (like the actual http://fedora.redhat.com/images/header-fedora_logo.png) people will just use some alternative ones, which they will consider fun enough (for example I know of some uses of my alternate hats - the ones published at http://openclipart.org/cgi-bin/navigate/people/clothing/hats ) I am pretty bad at English so I guess I will wait for such a description of the project to be done and see if I find something fun in it. -- nicu From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 13:40:35 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > >>this is something drawn about one year ago: > >>http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fedora_logo_hat.png > > > > > > Sadly, its been deemed that anything with a hat is going to be unacceptable. > > We need to get a bit more abstract. > > I understand the reasoning for "no hat" (this does not means I agree) > but this have not stopped me to try a different hat, a more abstract > one: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/simple_hat.png > > > My suggestion is we have some sort of brainstorming excersize where > > all we do is come up with a bunch of words or phrases that describe > > fedora the project, and then go back and try to sketch out an icon to > > match something in that word/concept association list. Without some > > sort of new focus, we are going to keep circling around "hats" because > > its just too damn obvious. > > Well, no hat, no mascot, no fun. I believe a logo should be fun, > something people will *want* to put on their wallpaper, t-shirt, cap > etc. I expect if the official logo will not be fun enough (like the > actual http://fedora.redhat.com/images/header-fedora_logo.png) people > will just use some alternative ones, which they will consider fun enough > (for example I know of some uses of my alternate hats - the ones > published at > http://openclipart.org/cgi-bin/navigate/people/clothing/hats ) > > I am pretty bad at English so I guess I will wait for such a description > of the project to be done and see if I find something fun in it. > > -- > nicu > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 13:43:46 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:13:46 +0530 Subject: Another FC4 review Message-ID: <42C54892.2080206@redhat.com> Hi http://tuxtops.com/?q=node/231 A fair number of the valid criticisms include perceived slowness of native Eclipse (related to GCJ?) and bugs , system-config-packages , more visibility for NetworkManager, no automount of FAT partitions, up2date applet bug Improvements planned for the next release address nearly all of the above concerns : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future. MP3 and NTFS amoung others isnt included for legal reasons : Check http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems. Incidentally will the Fedora Foundation change the liability for any of these is a question that comes up pretty often. I guess not but we should run this through legal and getting a more official statement for future FF related announcements Things to check up: Synpatics laptop application for tweaking it and try to look at setting it up the right way by default if that isnt already happening. I would appreciate more details on whats the status of this if any of the people in this list is using this. Would also be nice to respond to this review in detail. Interested? regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 13:50:58 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:50:58 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > I understand the reasoning for "no hat" (this does not means I agree) > but this have not stopped me to try a different hat, a more abstract > one: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/simple_hat.png Anyway at all you can make an abstract hat out of stylized versions of the F and C characters, and have it still look like a hat? I've utterly failed in any attempt. I look at your abstract hat sideways and I see an S and a B. If only those letters had significance for the project I think we could fool the powers that be that it really wasn't a hat at all. -jef From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 13:58:45 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:58:45 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <42C54C15.50909@nicubunu.ro> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? That is indeed a cute logo, it would only need a creative person to do a story about the relationship between the pup and the distro. You say to put a hat on him: so what is the final resolution, hats are allowed or forbidden? When defining the rules for the logo we may want or not to impose certain technical restrictions, like low number of colors (to not have something expensive to print), the image to allow a monochrome variant (to be possible to put in on faxes) etc. -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jul 1 14:05:35 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:05:35 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1120226735.31898.0.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:40 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? > you could name the dog fedora. -sv From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 14:14:27 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:14:27 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Anyway at all you can make an abstract hat out of stylized versions > of the F and C characters, and have it still look like a hat? I've > utterly failed in any attempt. I look at your abstract hat sideways > and I see an S and a B. If only those letters had significance for > the project I think we could fool the powers that be that it really > wasn't a hat at all. http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fc.png this look a little too abstract to me, is not very clear neither "FC", nor a hat -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:16:41 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:16:41 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > I understand the reasoning for "no hat" (this does not means I agree) > > but this have not stopped me to try a different hat, a more abstract > > one: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/simple_hat.png > > Anyway at all you can make an abstract hat out of stylized versions > of the F and C characters, and have it still look like a hat? I've > utterly failed in any attempt. Here's one of my attempts at using an F and C to make a "hat" http://jef.is-a-geek.com/F-C-hat.png the F and C are standing upright http://jef.is-a-geek.com/F-C-hat2.png rotated 90 degrees into a "hat" again.. its rough.. but I think i can get an equally rough "hat" using an L for legacy or an E for extras instead of the C. Something like this gives us the abstract hat without it meaning to be a hat at first glance and might be able to pass the "no hat" criteria. -jef From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jul 1 14:24:25 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:24:25 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1120227865.31898.7.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 17:14 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > Anyway at all you can make an abstract hat out of stylized versions > > of the F and C characters, and have it still look like a hat? I've > > utterly failed in any attempt. I look at your abstract hat sideways > > and I see an S and a B. If only those letters had significance for > > the project I think we could fool the powers that be that it really > > wasn't a hat at all. > > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fc.png > this look a little too abstract to me, is not very clear neither "FC", > nor a hat umm - it's not just Fedora Core. so using FC to make it seems a bit silly. -sv From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 14:26:37 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:26:37 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Here's one of my attempts at using an F and C to make a "hat" > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/F-C-hat.png the F and C are standing upright > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/F-C-hat2.png rotated 90 degrees into a "hat" > > again.. its rough.. but I think i can get an equally rough "hat" > using an L for legacy or an E for extras instead of the C. > > Something like this gives us the abstract hat without it meaning to be > a hat at first glance and might be able to pass the "no hat" criteria. Right, it looks very abstract, so it may pass the "no hat" criteria, but it would pass the coolness criteria? Personally, for me the (subjective) coolness criteria is something along the lines of: "I would proudly put this on my t-shirt?" -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:28:49 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:28:49 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa791050701072816035bf@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fc.png > this look a little too abstract to me, is not very clear neither "FC", > nor a hat I actually like that a lot. I think you'd have to try to make the strokes a bit thicker or accentuate the shape of the letters a little more, something to make the F and C view a little better at small scales. but I "see" the hat and i "see" the f and c. I think thats a pretty close to what a best effort to create a hat out of something else is going to give us. I bet.. you could probably mock up similar hats with F F for foundation F E for extras and even F L if you tried real hard. The question remains... is an abstract "hat" out of lettering acceptible or not? -jef From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 14:29:23 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:29:23 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120227865.31898.7.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> <1120227865.31898.7.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42C55343.1090400@nicubunu.ro> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 17:14 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > >>http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fc.png >>this look a little too abstract to me, is not very clear neither "FC", >>nor a hat > > > umm - it's not just Fedora Core. > > so using FC to make it seems a bit silly. The "C" can be easily transformed into an "E" and with a little work into a "L" too, but I don't like it enough to consider worthy pursuing this. -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Fri Jul 1 14:33:12 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:33:12 -0400 Subject: Fedora Boot for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120190964.3772.212.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120190964.3772.212.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1120228393.15274.11.camel@deepfort> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 12:09 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Now that FUDCon2 is over, and we've pretty much decided to not have a > > FUDCon3 in SF can we put some serious resources into planning the > > Fedora > > Booth for LWCE:SF? > > It ain't over till the fat lady sings (okay, Jack's a man and he isn't a > fat lady) > > All that aside, want to keep us updated about your status with regards > to talking about FUDCon 3 in San Francisco? Well I am still very interested in getting it done. However, the main roadblock right now is funding. Since FUDCon II and 3 would be in the same fiscal quarter, money will be tight. One thing I am looking at currently, is to possibly have it held at Google, since Google has lots of extra room, and would be willing to help and even present on some of their open source projects and summer of code. If anyone here knows people at google please do not harass them. I know that when we here google we all get giddy, but we are trying to work the channels that we have, so please, please, please do not try to be proactive and taint them. I am working on it, and we should know soon. Otherwise, there will be a meeting next week about LWCE/Possible FUDCon3. I will let people know as things are decided. Jack From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:37:43 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:37:43 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Personally, for me the (subjective) coolness criteria is something along > the lines of: "I would proudly put this on my t-shirt?" I think there is room for for more than one "logo" a graphics heavy logo like a mascot works in some situations an abstract minimal logo works in others the puppy probably makes a very good t-shirt. a stylized F C or F F or F E or F L or even the single re-usable F is probably going to work in situations where you need a single color or you need to embroider... like a baseball cap. -jef"can you make an abstract hat out of an F and a U for user? I want a cleverly sneaky way to wear FU on a t-shirt"spaleta From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 14:41:38 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:41:38 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050701072816035bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <42C54FC3.9010409@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701072816035bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C55622.3020304@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > I actually like that a lot. I think you'd have to try to make the > strokes a bit thicker or accentuate the shape of the letters a little > more, something to make the F and C view a little better at small > scales. but I "see" the hat and i "see" the f and c. I think thats a > pretty close to what a best effort to create a hat out of something > else is going to give us. if needed, is *very easy* to adjust the shapes as needed (or draw them again from the scratch in the same idea, probably a 5 or 10 minutes job) > I bet.. you could probably mock up similar hats with F F for > foundation F E for extras and even F L if you tried real hard. if it is any use for you, the source is in the same place: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fc.svg > The question remains... is an abstract "hat" out of lettering > acceptible or not? -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 14:42:55 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C54C15.50909@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <42C54C15.50909@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? > > That is indeed a cute logo, it would only need a creative person to do a > story about the relationship between the pup and the distro. > You say to put a hat on him: so what is the final resolution, hats are > allowed or forbidden? A straight hat as a logo is clearly forbidden. A hat that is an element of another logo may be acceptable. It'll certainly be easier to lobby for. > When defining the rules for the logo we may want or not to impose > certain technical restrictions, like low number of colors (to not have > something expensive to print), the image to allow a monochrome variant > (to be possible to put in on faxes) etc. I'll say this for everyone's benefit: the design folks at RH are perfectly happy to spend cycles on this, and they understand these issues deeply. So no worries there. The one big rule, though: this logo needs to be extensible, right? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Jul 1 14:44:46 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:44:46 -0500 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050701094446.120cfcbb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Jeff Spaleta , spake thus: > Something like this gives us the abstract hat without it meaning to be > a hat at first glance and might be able to pass the "no hat" criteria. The distinguishing characteristic that makes a "hat" into a "fedora" is the creased crown and the pinched crease on either side of the front point of the top crease. Could somebody design us a "fedora font" where the letters all have the fedora crease and then just make the logo the "Fedora" word? Any takers? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:47:08 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:47:08 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <20050701094446.120cfcbb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <20050701094446.120cfcbb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050701074770d67700@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > The distinguishing characteristic that makes a "hat" into a "fedora" > is the creased crown and the pinched crease on either side of the > front point of the top crease. > > Could somebody design us a "fedora font" where the letters all have > the fedora crease and then just make the logo the "Fedora" word? clever...... -jef From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 1 14:48:37 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:48:37 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > -jef"can you make an abstract hat out of an F and a U for user? I want > a cleverly sneaky way to wear FU on a t-shirt"spaleta one minute with the same base shape and "FU" is something like this: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fu.png -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:51:59 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:51:59 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? Pup is nice. One caution: I think you would definitely have to recast Pup in a blue theme. While this logo doesn't look like YellowDog's logos at all, I'd have to cause undue confusion by having people talk about Fedora's "yellow dog" One suggestion: Replace the package with a hatbox. Two suggestions: Rework the puppy to be peering into an open hatbox. tagline "Fedora: look inside" -jef From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 14:55:05 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:55:05 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 08:43 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > So on that note... here is my somewhat less humorous attempt at a > > draft for a reusable logo. > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/path3079.png > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Fedora-Logos.png > > this is something drawn about one year ago: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fedora_logo_hat.png > > I propose a wiki page where anybody can add his logo ideas (drawings) http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas The big ones are too big for this page, but I can't do HTML resizing on them. If you want to resize the source URL, go for it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Jul 1 14:56:11 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:56:11 -0500 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050701074770d67700@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <20050701094446.120cfcbb.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> <604aa791050701074770d67700@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050701095611.4e051ba8.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Jeff Spaleta , spake thus: > > Could somebody design us a "fedora font" where the letters all have > > the fedora crease and then just make the logo the "Fedora" word? > clever...... and make the official slogan: "Fedora, it's not about just the hat." Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 15:00:42 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:00:42 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > one minute with the same base shape and "FU" is something like this: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/fu.png I think thats good enough to show the concept meets a certain threshold of extensibility. so assuming the puppy fills the role of a strong graphics logo and assuming something like the abstract hat initials can be used for situations like letterhead or anywhere where simple stencils are prefered... is there any drasticly different ideas bouncing around inside your head? Something that doesn't reference a hat all all? Perhaps an idea for a heavy graphic that isn't a mascot? -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 15:04:20 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:04:20 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910507010804d320be3@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ Other than extensibility is there a specific feature the doc group needs in a re-usable graphic? So far I think a new variant on the puppy would work for your needs. You can have the puppy biting on an exclamation point or peeing on a question mark. -jef From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jul 1 15:12:59 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:12:59 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120230779.31898.12.camel@cutter> > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas > > The big ones are too big for this page, but I can't do HTML > resizing on them. If you want to resize the source URL, go for it. > yes you can. Look at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiSandBox notice the ImageLink mechanism being used on the big picture of the barn. -sv From mattfrye at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 15:25:32 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> > is there any drasticly different ideas bouncing around inside your head? > Something that doesn't reference a hat all all? > Perhaps an idea for a heavy graphic that isn't a mascot? The word "Fedora" comes from the greek Theodoros, literally. "gift of god," from theos "god" + doron "gift." How about a gift box with a blue ribbon and the word Core, Extras, etc on the tag or side of the box, respectively? Something similar? I'm thinking we should leave the god part out, since the "Theo" is reduced to "Fe." MPF From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jul 1 15:30:45 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:30:45 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120231845.31898.15.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:25 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > > is there any drasticly different ideas bouncing around inside your head? > > Something that doesn't reference a hat all all? > > Perhaps an idea for a heavy graphic that isn't a mascot? > > The word "Fedora" comes from the greek Theodoros, literally. "gift of > god," from theos "god" + doron "gift." How about a gift box with a > blue ribbon and the word Core, Extras, etc on the tag or side of the > box, respectively? Something similar? > > I'm thinking we should leave the god part out, since the "Theo" is > reduced to "Fe." > Fe is Iron on the periodic table of elements. a little table of elements box with Fe in it might be cute. -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 15:43:39 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:43:39 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050701084156a7331@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050701084156a7331@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050701084368c16c5f@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Matt Frye wrote: > The word "Fedora" comes from the greek Theodoros, literally. "gift of > god," from theos "god" + doron "gift." How about a gift box with a > blue ribbon and the word Core, Extras, etc on the tag or side of the > box, respectively? Something similar? I'm thinking that works very well with the puppy graphic. And the gift tag idea re-introduced the easy to use press card idea from the hat. The docs people could either pull the gift box out completely or put their iconic symbols into the giftcard on the box. A gifted wrapped hat box even :-> > > I'm thinking we should leave the god part out, since the "Theo" is > reduced to "Fe." If the gift card were big enough, you could pick an obscure but relevant greek god as the "From:" line. -jef"pheme, goddess of gossip seems appropriate"spaleta From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Jul 1 15:48:58 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:48:58 -0500 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050701104858.1df44cde.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Uttered Karsten Wade , spake thus: > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas Here's an idea we kicked around a couple of weeks ago. It's a hat, so that's out ("No hats, no men" == "No Men With Hats" == "Un-Safety Dance") but here it is just for lusting: http://www.megacoder.com/fdsc/logo.jpg http://www.megacoder.com/fdsc/logo.svg Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 15:55:51 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:55:51 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120231845.31898.15.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> <1120231845.31898.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105070108551786c732@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, seth vidal wrote: > Fe is Iron on the periodic table of elements. > > a little table of elements box with Fe in it might be cute. cute... and a similar style is already being used by "element computing" as part of their branding... http://www.elementcomputer.com/mambo/images/stories/outlets_web.jpg I think greg would have to check out the trademark situation around this idea. -jef"Fc: fedoracorium, Fe: iron Fl: fedoralegacium"spaleta From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 16:21:31 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:21:31 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910507010804d320be3@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <1120229705.7188.118.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910507010804d320be3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120234891.7188.134.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:04 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/1/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > > > Other than extensibility is there a specific feature the doc group > needs in a re-usable graphic? Documentation needs match everyone elses -- has to look good very-teeny- tiny and in B&W. > So far I think a new variant on the puppy would work for your needs. > You can have the puppy biting on an exclamation point or peeing on a > question mark. "Fedora, we peese on your questeonne!" Nice. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 16:22:21 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/1/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? > > > Pup is nice. > One caution: I think you would definitely have to recast Pup in a blue > theme. While this logo doesn't look like YellowDog's logos at all, I'd > have to cause undue confusion by having people talk about Fedora's > "yellow dog" > > One suggestion: Replace the package with a hatbox. > > Two suggestions: Rework the puppy to be peering into an open hatbox. > tagline "Fedora: look inside" BRILLIANT! --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mattfrye at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 16:26:03 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:26:03 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> > > > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? Explain something to me: why does it have to be cute? "Look inside" is good, but I don't get the cute puppy bit. To paraphrase David Mamet, "Does it have to be a cute anything?" MPF From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 16:31:32 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > > > > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? > > Explain something to me: why does it have to be cute? "Look inside" > is good, but I don't get the cute puppy bit. To paraphrase David > Mamet, "Does it have to be a cute anything?" Nope. Doesn't have to be a cute anything. Using pup, however, has a few advantages that I can see: 1. Instantly recognizable as a pup; 2. Correlates to a new technology that will be central to Fedora; 3. Is generating some ideas. Of course, there's an obvious downside: 1. Might be a little close to "yellow dog" for comfort. And Mister Frye, now that you've thrown your rock at this idea, you are hereby *obliged* to put a new idea in the hat. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 16:50:46 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:50:46 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105070109502cb885e6@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 1. Might be a little close to "yellow dog" for comfort. I dare you to stick some horns and hooves on it and call it scapegoat. -jef"perhaps a double dog dare would have been more appropriate"spaleta From paulds at bu.edu Fri Jul 1 18:10:57 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:10:57 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20050701181057.GA30682@prozac.horde.com> On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 09:40:35AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > How about we steal the logo for pup and put a little bitty hat on him? Make it a yarmulke. That way, if RH complains about it being a hat, we can tell them they're violating the puppy's freedom of religion. :) I for one like the puppy logo, assuming Paul N doesn't mind him being dognapped. It's extremely eye-catching, it's cute, and (as has been noted) it can fairly easily be adapted for a variety of use scenarios. Paint him blue, give him a collar with a big F on it, voila. - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From mattfrye at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 18:37:51 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:37:51 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> I thought I was replying to the list. Damn Reply-To! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Matt Frye Date: Jul 1, 2005 2:02 PM Subject: Re: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) To: Greg DeKoenigsberg > And Mister Frye, now that you've thrown your rock at this idea, you are > hereby *obliged* to put a new idea in the hat. :) I think I already did with my "iron gift" idea. Nonetheless, how about this Mr. DeKoenigsberg? :-) I was thinking about the "speed" at which Fedora releases. I also think of Fedora as an act in exploration. Picture, if you will, a boat. A fast boat that's unique like a catamaran. There's plenty of room for Core, Extras, etc on a sail, and there's a lot of flexibilty within the imagery. MPF From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 18:44:37 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:44:37 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Matt Frye wrote: > I was thinking about the "speed" at which Fedora releases. I also > think of Fedora as an act in exploration. Picture, if you will, a > boat. A fast boat that's unique like a catamaran. There's plenty of > room for Core, Extras, etc on a sail, and there's a lot of flexibilty > within the imagery. puppy on a boat? puppy on a boat with his head thrust forward into the wind like what a dog does out of a car window. with his jowls pushed back by the wind and a long stream of saliva reaching back along the slipstream. That puppy has a need for speed -jef"of course you'd have to be the jarring jagged rocks just in front of them, for a depicition of a test releases and the development tree"spaleta From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 18:45:41 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:45:41 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120243541.7188.160.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 14:37 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > I thought I was replying to the list. Damn Reply-To! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Matt Frye > Date: Jul 1, 2005 2:02 PM > Subject: Re: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any > constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) > To: Greg DeKoenigsberg > > > > And Mister Frye, now that you've thrown your rock at this idea, you are > > hereby *obliged* to put a new idea in the hat. :) > > I think I already did with my "iron gift" idea. Nonetheless, how > about this Mr. DeKoenigsberg? :-) > > I was thinking about the "speed" at which Fedora releases. I also > think of Fedora as an act in exploration. Picture, if you will, a > boat. A fast boat that's unique like a catamaran. There's plenty of > room for Core, Extras, etc on a sail, and there's a lot of flexibilty > within the imagery. Right, a cat with twl hulls, imagine it leaned slightly in a strong wind and our perspective/camera is tilted. The sail's shadow becomes the slanted bar of the F (normally vertical) with the two hulls forming the horizontal bars. The sail is tilted up to face us, full of wind, and ready for a sub-project letter. Someone who sails better than I needs to figure out the physics of the wind, light, and hulls. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 1 18:50:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:50:52 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 14:44 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > puppy on a boat? puppy on a boat with his head thrust forward into the > wind like what a dog does out of a car window. with his jowls pushed > back by the wind and a long stream of saliva reaching back along the > slipstream. That puppy has a need for speed With the puppy, if you can see the saliva-stream, maybe sometimes he can be chewing on a piece of rawhide. Probably bleeding a little bit at the gums, too. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 19:10:10 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:10:10 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa79105070112107abe934e@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > With the puppy, if you can see the saliva-stream, maybe sometimes he can > be chewing on a piece of rawhide. > > Probably bleeding a little bit at the gums, too. a puppy, with a sailboat graphic on his dog collar, with a puppy on board, with a sailboat graphic on his dog collar, with a puppy on board, with a sailboat graphic..... I'm not really sure you want to try to make the "F" with a shadow or rely on any lighting affects at all. Depending on the context you might need to re-light the boat for some specific reason. And while a shadow might look reasonable okay on a white background of a page.. it might not be such a great thing to rely on in other contexts... like embroidered items or in small metal trinkets or pins if we go that way for the recognition awards. A fast moving boat seems like reasonably appropriate imagery, and i think it can be created in both high detail graphic style as well as conservative abstract form when a stencilish approach is needed while still being recognizable as the same graphic. The puppy is good with mid to high graphics detail, I'm not sure how the puppy would look in a more stencil-like or outline approach. -jef"isn't going to share the image for the development tree of a puppy hanging half out of a manual meat grinder with the tag line 'Fedora Devlopment, dog-food for the soul' "spaleta From lxmaier at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 20:11:53 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 22:11:53 +0200 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070112107abe934e@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105070112107abe934e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270507011311173a4ae6@mail.gmail.com> Did somebody say "abstract logo?" http://www.fedora.info/ As I was reading through this thread, I kept trying to imagine what logo ideas we might produce if the word "Fedora" did not have any meaning at all... What message do we want the logo to communicate to the people looking at it? What is the one, maybe two, most important things about Fedora that we want everybody to know about? What is it that makes Fedora different from everybody else out there? If we are to market the project to the potential contributors and the distro to the users, we need a logo that would make them feel good about being part of the project--by simply using it or by helping build the distro. I would like to suggest an open brainstorming session about what is the one most important thing about Fedora. When (and if) we agree on this one thing, the logo and the rest of the branding palette would be easier to design. We can still throuw a blue puppy in at the end :) So here is what I think Fedora stands for: Balancing stability with innovation a From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 20:45:39 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:45:39 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f617d270507011311173a4ae6@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105070112107abe934e@mail.gmail.com> <7f617d270507011311173a4ae6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910507011345ebf8cb9@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Alex Maier wrote: > So here is what I think Fedora stands for: > > Balancing stability with innovation No crayon and napkin sketch as to how exactly you would represent that? Stick man on a high wire circus tent? Puppy on a high wire circus tent? A rock in one hand for stability....and for innovation...A fusion reactor? -jef"minus 10 points for refering to the .info site"spaleta From shiser at cloud9.net Fri Jul 1 20:58:10 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:58:10 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120220406.28906.30.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> <1120189838.3772.202.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1120220406.28906.30.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120251490.3439.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 08:20 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:50 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more > > > > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I. > > > > > > There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have > > > ever heard of. > > > > Ubuntu > > > > (really) > > They haven't released an enterprise-targeted distro yet. Correct. They are looking at doing so. -Sam > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From lxmaier at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 21:27:05 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:27:05 +0200 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910507011345ebf8cb9@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105070112107abe934e@mail.gmail.com> <7f617d270507011311173a4ae6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910507011345ebf8cb9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d2705070114277fe9ad87@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > A rock in one hand for stability....and for innovation...A fusion reactor? yeah, i was thinking of a lady by the name of fedora, riding a bicycle on a high wire, holding a blue puppy in one hand to symbolize innovation and a brick in the other for stability. and lots of ribbons. i like ribbons. if we can't use the hat, we can't. at least for now. hat or no hat, it is still important to know what your core message should be *before* changing/extending the branding palette--if indeed it is necessary to make these changes. and one way i see to find out what this message should be is to brainstorm about it--that's what this list is for. correct me if i am wrong. a From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 21:59:28 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:59:28 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705070114277fe9ad87@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701110245f79f58@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0507011137ed61f88@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070111441cc37bac@mail.gmail.com> <1120243852.7188.162.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105070112107abe934e@mail.gmail.com> <7f617d270507011311173a4ae6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910507011345ebf8cb9@mail.gmail.com> <7f617d2705070114277fe9ad87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050701145977b5b8ab@mail.gmail.com> On 7/1/05, Alex Maier wrote: > hat or no hat, it is still important to know what your core message > should be *before* changing/extending the branding palette--if indeed > it is necessary to make these changes. and one way i see to find out > what this message should be is to brainstorm about it--that's what > this list is for. > > correct me if i am wrong. no you aren't wrong, in fact I think i've somewhere along this thread to move into brainstorming concepts... or did i accidently reply to someone in private again using that exact set of words. I just wanted to get a clearer idea of what you wanted in mind as to how to take the concept sentence into visual form. I have a tough time with visualizing "innovation." -jef From mattdm at mattdm.org Sat Jul 2 03:54:00 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:54:00 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120231845.31898.15.camel@cutter> References: <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> <1120231845.31898.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20050702035400.GA2860@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 11:30:45AM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > Fe is Iron on the periodic table of elements. > a little table of elements box with Fe in it might be cute. And the box could be held by Dora the Explorer! Now, we just have to get the cross-licensing deal with Viacom worked out.... -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From lxmaier at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 08:13:10 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:13:10 +0200 Subject: Logo Ideas In-Reply-To: <20050702035400.GA2860@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070106503623f091@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105070107164b0375a3@mail.gmail.com> <42C5529D.6090603@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070107373388983a@mail.gmail.com> <42C557C5.9080305@nicubunu.ro> <604aa791050701080078c37b3b@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050701082575f1f24a@mail.gmail.com> <1120231845.31898.15.camel@cutter> <20050702035400.GA2860@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <7f617d2705070201131437fab1@mail.gmail.com> i am sure i am violating at least a thousand copyrights, but what the heck-- http://people.redhat.com/amaier/fedoralogos.html From tp at alternativ.net Sat Jul 2 09:38:35 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:38:35 +0200 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120297115.2789.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Donnerstag, den 30.06.2005, 16:08 -0400 schrieb Matt Frye: > > so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. > > > > /me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin > > might be a bit too subtle :) > > That's what I am thinking. But what sense does it make to have a > project named for a hat, but not be allowed to illustrate said hat. > We might as well call it "The Swim Trunks Project." Well I think many people outside the US (like me) would never had combined the name Fedora wit a hat. In Europe the hat is called trilby. So this is not really a global name. see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora for more meanings. -- Dieser Inhalt ist unter einer Creative Commons-Lizenz lizenziert: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From tp at alternativ.net Sat Jul 2 10:27:31 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 12:27:31 +0200 Subject: the name "fedora" Message-ID: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Hi, I tend to like the idea to interpret the name "Fedora" primarily as a female name. I think it would be nice if Fedora distinguishes itself from other distros to be somehow pro equal rights. A Linux that is not made for men as primary focus. I think this is important. Anybody has seen the speech of Jeff Waugh (GNOME) at the GUADEC 2005 in Stuttgart? (Theora: http://stream.fluendo.com/archive/6uadec/Jeff_Waugh_-_Project_Topaz.ogg ) He had some good points about righting software for girls... ;-) watch this video its nice. I think what counts for GNOME also kinds for any distribution. Also after the creation of DebianWomen there is also GnomeWomen: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWomen . Thilo -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Jul 2 10:42:06 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 13:42:06 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C66F7E.8040501@nicubunu.ro> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > >>Explain something to me: why does it have to be cute? "Look inside" >>is good, but I don't get the cute puppy bit. To paraphrase David >>Mamet, "Does it have to be a cute anything?" > > > Nope. Doesn't have to be a cute anything. > > Using pup, however, has a few advantages that I can see: > > 1. Instantly recognizable as a pup; > 2. Correlates to a new technology that will be central to Fedora; > 3. Is generating some ideas. Is this pup cute enough? http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/pup_in_a_box.png I reused *a lot* from the pup (the application) logo From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Jul 2 10:50:45 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:20:45 +0530 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C66F7E.8040501@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <42C66F7E.8040501@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <42C67185.4000806@redhat.com> Hi > > Is this pup cute enough? http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/pup_in_a_box.png > I reused *a lot* from the pup (the application) logo I like this one. The pup has a interesting expression though it looks almost annoyed. Maybe you should try brushing that up to look a bit more expectant or eager to please regards Rahul From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jul 2 15:09:42 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:09:42 -0400 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 12:27 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > I tend to like the idea to interpret the name "Fedora" primarily as a > female name. I think it would be nice if Fedora distinguishes itself > from other distros to be somehow pro equal rights. A Linux that is not > made for men as primary focus. I think this is important. Anybody has > seen the speech of Jeff Waugh (GNOME) at the GUADEC 2005 in Stuttgart? > (Theora: > http://stream.fluendo.com/archive/6uadec/Jeff_Waugh_-_Project_Topaz.ogg ) > He had some good points about righting software for girls... ;-) watch > this video its nice. I think what counts for GNOME also kinds for any > distribution. > > Also after the creation of DebianWomen there is also GnomeWomen: > http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWomen . In english, which is the language of the majority of the mailing lists and communication about the distribution there is no such thing as gender being applied to words. So how about we keep it that way. Fedora is gender neutral. Neither made for men nor for women. You can't make a distribution more accessible for everyone by "righting software for girls". You make it more accessible to everyone by making involvement and contribution easier for everyone, regardless of gender. I agree that we should be about open involvement. If I hear of anyone treating potential developers with disrespect due to their gender/race/nationality/religion/sexual orientation/age/etc then I've got a large mallet to smack them with. And I'm betting everyone on this list agrees about that. -sv From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sat Jul 2 19:13:01 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:13:01 -0400 Subject: Another FC4 review In-Reply-To: <42C54892.2080206@redhat.com> References: <42C54892.2080206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1120331581.3608.38.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 19:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Things to check up: Synpatics laptop application for tweaking it and try > to look at setting it up the right way by default if that isnt already > happening. I would appreciate more details on whats the status of this > if any of the people in this list is using this. Would also be nice to > respond to this review in detail. Interested? When I set up this machine, FC4 did not configure the synaptics touchpad. I copied and pasted the example from the synaptics documentation into the xorg.conf file to get it working. There are also still some flaws/quirks but I don't know whether the problem is in the software driver, the hardware, or my configuration. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tp at alternativ.net Sat Jul 2 21:38:37 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:38:37 +0200 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Samstag, den 02.07.2005, 11:09 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > In english, which is the language of the majority of the mailing lists > and communication about the distribution there is no such thing as > gender being applied to words. So how about we keep it that way. Ah, but you do have names for women and for men? I did not say that Fedora is feminin in english. I just ment, that from some of the roots of the word one could deduce such thing. And I don't think we should concentrate on the english language. Linux is wide spread. Soon there might be billions of chinese that use english. It might ebven be helpful to be careful that a name does not sound similar to something stupid or offending in another language. I guess Red Hat might have investigated a bit before choosing the name "Fedora"? > You make it more accessible to everyone by making involvement and > contribution easier for everyone, regardless of gender. No, it is important to make involvment and contribution easier, but that does not make a distribution more accessible. Attractiveness comes from good software and good usability. But I aggree that both things are important and can looked at seperated. Thilo -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jul 2 22:40:52 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 18:40:52 -0400 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 23:38 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Am Samstag, den 02.07.2005, 11:09 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > > > > In english, which is the language of the majority of the mailing lists > > and communication about the distribution there is no such thing as > > gender being applied to words. So how about we keep it that way. > > Ah, but you do have names for women and for men? I did not say that > Fedora is feminin in english. I just ment, that from some of the roots > of the word one could deduce such thing. > And I don't think we should concentrate on the english language. We already do focus on the english language. Sure there are translation projects and i18n/l10n efforts but all development is in english. The company that pays for fedora does all their interactions in english. The 'common' language for linux, as said, repeatedly, by Linus Torvalds is english. So yah, we do focus on english, let's not be silly. > Linux is wide spread. Soon there might be billions of chinese that use > english. It might ebven be helpful to be careful that a name does not sound similar to something stupid or > offending in another language. I guess Red Hat might have investigated a > bit before choosing the name "Fedora"? That's a rathole of marketing and silliness that's not worth worrying with anymore. The name of the project is fedora. The name is staying and we make do with what we have. If someone in red hat's hierarchy wants to rename the project and distribution then more power to them, but none of us have that kind of authority. > No, it is important to make involvment and contribution easier, but that > does not make a distribution more accessible. Attractiveness comes from > good software and good usability. But I aggree that both things are > important and can looked at seperated. Then the things necessary to make the distro more accessible aren't to be discussed on this list. Discuss them on fedora-desktop-list and fedora-devel-list. -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 22:53:34 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 18:53:34 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <42C66F7E.8040501@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <42C66F7E.8040501@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa79105070215531ab435dc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/2/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Is this pup cute enough? http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/pup_in_a_box.png > I reused *a lot* from the pup (the application) logo I think thats a pretty good draft for a puppy related logo. Could you re-invent that in the abstract minimal line stroke form? Ah whats the word im looking for.. there is a style of japanese art that encompasses exactly what i mean. What would be really cool if we are going to end up using the puppy.. is to create sort of a set of mix and match puppy faces, puppy bodies and props in svg. So anyone who has a valid need to make a fedora related graphic can put one together without a lot of tweaking. Just drag and around pre-existing pieces to create a new related graphic. One use for this type of thing, docs subgroup can use the mix and match svg components to create emotive puppy graphics that are obviously related to the base logo. example: The docs people want to make a new puppy based alert icon... they use the exlamation point prop and use the puppy's "alert" face with ears perked up and the puppy standing up body. The docs people want to make a puppy based question icon.. they use a question mark prop and use the puppy "confused" face with the sitting down on its hauches body. i think you could get away with faces: "happy" "sad" "scared" "confused" "constipated" "asleep" "alert/excited" "bad dog guilty" "angry" bodies: "begging" "standing" "sitting on haunches" "laying down" "rolled over belly exposed" "standing on back feet" -jef" and of coursing the "biting" face and the "leg up peeing" body"spaleta From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sun Jul 3 07:33:33 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:33:33 +0300 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070215531ab435dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <42C4D812.7080608@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070106006c0c66c4@mail.gmail.com> <42C5470C.7080706@nicubunu.ro> <604aa7910507010751692253e6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05070109269d62c6e@mail.gmail.com> <42C66F7E.8040501@nicubunu.ro> <604aa79105070215531ab435dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C794CD.6060501@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > What would be really cool if we are going to end up using the puppy.. > is to create sort of a set of mix and match puppy faces, puppy bodies > and props in svg. So anyone who has a valid need to make a fedora > related graphic can put one together without a lot of tweaking. Just > drag and around pre-existing pieces to create a new related graphic. I get it, something like the "Potato Head" game: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/2005/05/one-potato-two-potatos.html From tp at alternativ.net Sun Jul 3 07:53:40 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:53:40 +0200 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Samstag, den 02.07.2005, 18:40 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > So yah, we do focus on english, let's not be silly. Well, then I think Fedora will not be the distribution of my choice, because i can not expect things to be translated. A distribution which is not commited to localisation has no future > The name of the project is fedora. The name is staying and we make do > with what we have. That's extremley arrogant and silly. I just hope that this is only your personal opinion. > Then the things necessary to make the distro more accessible aren't to > be discussed on this list. Discuss them on fedora-desktop-list and > fedora-devel-list. Ok, you don't want to dicuss marketing. Marketing is dicussed in fedora-desktop-list? So what is discussed in marketing? The desktop usage? You think involvment is made easy if people like make a lot of taboos not to be discussed. Until today I considered Fedora to be the distribution I would like to stick and promote for many purposes (as basis for Gnome LiveCD for instance). I think I have to reconsider that, if you are not alone with you opinion. -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sun Jul 3 08:15:04 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 04:15:04 -0400 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1120378504.4617.80.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2005-07-03 at 09:53 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Am Samstag, den 02.07.2005, 18:40 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > > > So yah, we do focus on english, let's not be silly. > > Well, then I think Fedora will not be the distribution of my choice, > because i can not expect things to be translated. A distribution which > is not commited to localisation has no future Did you read the rest of my message? Where I said that there are localization and internationalization development work. Where I mention that those would not be in english? All my point was that on the whole the language that all of the interactions are done in is english. And aside from localized efforts I'll wish you good luck to find an exception to that rule among the major linux distributions. > > The name of the project is fedora. The name is staying and we make do > > with what we have. > > That's extremley arrogant and silly. I just hope that this is only your > personal opinion. It's not arrogant at all. In fact it's quite humble. I know I do not have the authority or power to change the name. I know that changing the name at this stage in the game is ridiculous. Therefore, I'm not going to make plans or take actions that rely on the name of the project and distribution changing. > > Then the things necessary to make the distro more accessible aren't to > > be discussed on this list. Discuss them on fedora-desktop-list and > > fedora-devel-list. > > Ok, you don't want to dicuss marketing. Marketing is dicussed in > fedora-desktop-list? So what is discussed in marketing? The desktop > usage? You said that the things necessary to make fedora accessible were applications and ease of use. That's not about marketing. You don't write applications or make it easier to use on the marketing list. > You think involvment is made easy if people like make a lot of taboos > not to be discussed. Until today I considered Fedora to be the > distribution I would like to stick and promote for many purposes (as > basis for Gnome LiveCD for instance). I think I have to reconsider that, > if you are not alone with you opinion. What on earth are you talking about? Did you read my messages at all? I said that discussion of application development and ease of use don't belong on the marketing list. I specifically pointed to where those discussions would be considered on topic. Can you really not see the difference b/t a technical discussion about livecds and a non-technical discussion about the logo of the project? Are you serious? -sv From mattfrye at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 16:12:48 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:12:48 -0400 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120378504.4617.80.camel@cutter> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120378504.4617.80.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0507030912516af714@mail.gmail.com> > > > The name of the project is fedora. The name is staying and we make do > > > with what we have. > > That's extremley arrogant and silly. I just hope that this is only your > > personal opinion. > It's not arrogant at all. In fact it's quite humble. I know I do not > have the authority or power to change the name. It does raise an interesting point. "Fedora" made more sense when it was "part of Red Hat" (as opposed to the "Fedora Foundation"). Even though Red Hat has editorial control over Fedora, we shouldn't assume that they are going to make Fedora stay "Fedora." Why not? Consider the following... 1) Red Hat bosses said "no hat." That's effectively hobbling us as far as logos go. 2) The word "Fedora" is more specific than "Red Hat," but the respective products are functionally opposite that scheme. 3) Editorial control is really about the content, and not the name. Otherwise, Red Hat would be in a legal battle with UVA and Cornell. 4) It's a brave new world, and clearly a lot isn't yet sorted out. MPF From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 16:45:25 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:45:25 -0400 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0507030912516af714@mail.gmail.com> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120378504.4617.80.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd0507030912516af714@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910507030945328058fa@mail.gmail.com> On 7/3/05, Matt Frye wrote: > 4) It's a brave new world, and clearly a lot isn't yet sorted out. I see zero advantage in rehashing the name of the project FOUR releases into the endeavor without there being a legal obsticle that requires it. I choose to move forward and to engage in discussion on issues that have yet to be decided, instead of wring my hands over decisions that have been made previously that I was not a party to. If you choose to do otherwise or encourage others to do otherwise, I fear, you will only accomplish in frustrating yourself and the over process. -jef From romttrom at ybb.ne.jp Mon Jul 4 03:54:39 2005 From: romttrom at ybb.ne.jp (Yoshihiro Totaka) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:54:39 +0900 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <1119928447.32387.18.camel@cutter> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> <1119928447.32387.18.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42C8B2FF.2010107@ybb.ne.jp> I read in Daniel Veillard's blog that his presentation about Xen is at http://veillard.com/Talks/2005LinuxTag/Overview.html Yoshi seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 17:32 +0100, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: > >>On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:27:49PM -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: >> >>>Were there no recordings of the proceedings, then? Or just audio? >> >> >>A few bits will have made it onto the marketing video (hand-held >>roaming camera). >> >>Michael Kleinhenz (responsible for LinuxTag Marketing) recorded an >>excellent 30min Q&A about Fedora & the Fedora Foundation etc. >>Once it's been edited, he says he'll put it onto the LinuxTag website >>and it'll end up on the next LinuxTag DVD. >> >>The slides from my talk are at: >> http://people.redhat.com/agk/talks/linuxtag_2005/ >> >>Does someone on this list have access to update >> http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/ >>with a link to them? > > > done. > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 2005/07/01 From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 4 11:47:27 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Am Samstag, den 02.07.2005, 18:40 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > > > The name of the project is fedora. The name is staying and we make do > > with what we have. > > That's extremley arrogant and silly. I just hope that this is only your > personal opinion. It's not opinion. It's fact. Google fedora plus linux: 5.8 million hits. The name Fedora is staying. It's not really a point of discussion. Don't take it personally. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From tp at alternativ.net Mon Jul 4 12:48:34 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 14:48:34 +0200 Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1120481315.3405.36.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Montag, den 04.07.2005, 07:47 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > The name Fedora is staying. It's not really a point of discussion. Don't > take it personally. :) I think I have misinterpreted something and also was not clear with what I was writing: I do not want to change the name now. What i was trying to say is that I would find it arrogant if one would say: The name is Fedora, english speaking people have no problem with that and if it is offensive in other languages (where we do not have any indication right now) that would not let us rethink. I am very sure if there would be indications that the name would be offensive Red Hat would change the name immediately. I guess nobody wanted to say that Fedora is only ment for native english speakers. Thilo -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 4 13:36:30 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the name "fedora" In-Reply-To: <1120481315.3405.36.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120481315.3405.36.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Am Montag, den 04.07.2005, 07:47 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > > > The name Fedora is staying. It's not really a point of discussion. Don't > > take it personally. :) > > I think I have misinterpreted something and also was not clear with what > I was writing: I do not want to change the name now. What i was trying > to say is that I would find it arrogant if one would say: The name is > Fedora, english speaking people have no problem with that and if it is > offensive in other languages (where we do not have any indication right > now) that would not let us rethink. > > I am very sure if there would be indications that the name would be > offensive Red Hat would change the name immediately. I guess nobody > wanted to say that Fedora is only ment for native english speakers. Fortunately, no one has yet stepped forward in the almost two years of the Fedora project to say, "Fedora actually means prostitute in Zorbo-Ratstralia!" --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mattfrye at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 14:07:11 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:07:11 -0400 Subject: The fedora logo In-Reply-To: References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> > The name Fedora is staying. It's not really a point of discussion. Don't > take it personally. :) Ok, let's move away from that discussion then. So, is it going to be a puppy in a box or what? From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 4 14:12:16 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The fedora logo In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Matt Frye wrote: > > The name Fedora is staying. It's not really a point of discussion. Don't > > take it personally. :) > > Ok, let's move away from that discussion then. So, is it going to be > a puppy in a box or what? I like puppy/box/hat permutations. I like them enough to start shopping them around to the designer-types. There's Diana Fong and there's our own creative folks. More to look at here is better. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From paulds at bu.edu Mon Jul 4 15:24:25 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:24:25 -0400 Subject: The fedora logo In-Reply-To: References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050704152425.GA2260@prozac.horde.com> > I like puppy/box/hat permutations. I like them enough to start shopping > them around to the designer-types. There's Diana Fong and there's our own > creative folks. More to look at here is better. Being profoundly unartistic, I can't offer more to look at, but I can offer some brain-stormed permutations for designer inspiration: puppy wearing a hat, possibly looking into or pulling open a package/box puppy pulling a hat out of a box puppy pondering a wrapped-up box with a thoughtful expression, and a "thought balloon" with a picture of a hat to show what he's thinking about puppy with a hat-shaped spot on his fur, playing in a box puppy wearing a doggy sweater with a big F on it puppy wearing a collar with a big tag with a big F or a picture of a hat on it puppy wearing a hat and a scarf with a big F on it blowing behind him, pointing his nose into the wind puppy trotting proudly away from an open box, with a big F-shaped chew-toy in his mouth naughty puppy shredding a hat, with an obviously torn-open package in the background and yellow puddles everywhere... err, ok, maybe not :) - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jul 4 17:21:06 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:21:06 -0400 Subject: The fedora logo In-Reply-To: <20050704152425.GA2260@prozac.horde.com> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050704152425.GA2260@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <1120497667.18966.22.camel@cutter> > puppy wearing a hat and a scarf with a big F on it blowing behind him, > pointing his nose into the wind > > puppy trotting proudly away from an open box, with a big F-shaped chew-toy > in his mouth > > naughty puppy shredding a hat, with an obviously torn-open package in the > background and yellow puddles everywhere... err, ok, maybe not :) box with the words 'USDA puppy' stamped on the side of it? or maybe '100% genuine angus puppy' /me is a bad person. -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 06:57:30 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:27:30 +0530 Subject: Collecting information Message-ID: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> Hi Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html What do you think is the best way to do this? regards Rahul From tp at alternativ.net Tue Jul 5 10:57:58 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:57:58 +0200 Subject: The fedora logo In-Reply-To: <1120497667.18966.22.camel@cutter> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050704152425.GA2260@prozac.horde.com> <1120497667.18966.22.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120561079.3768.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> yet another puppy linux? http://www.goosee.com/puppy/ -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Jul 5 12:18:33 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:18:33 -0400 Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 12:27:30PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a > opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html > What do you think is the best way to do this? Not sure about how to do it, but it'd be nice if it also included package installation/use info a la the Debian Popularity Contest . -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 76 degrees Fahrenheit. From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 12:27:22 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:57:22 +0530 Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> Matthew Miller wrote: >On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 12:27:30PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a >>opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here >>http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html >>What do you think is the best way to do this? >> >> > >Not sure about how to do it, but it'd be nice if it also included package >installation/use info a la the Debian Popularity Contest >. > > > > Ok so the following tasks then * A tool to collect package stats * A tool to collect hardware information * A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the project with appropriate "incentives" to do it regards Rahul From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Jul 5 13:02:19 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 09:02:19 -0400 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <42C8B2FF.2010107@ybb.ne.jp> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> <1119928447.32387.18.camel@cutter> <42C8B2FF.2010107@ybb.ne.jp> Message-ID: <1120568539.18966.90.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 12:54 +0900, Yoshihiro Totaka wrote: > I read in Daniel Veillard's blog that his presentation about Xen is at > http://veillard.com/Talks/2005LinuxTag/Overview.html > added, thanks. -s From ad+lists at uni-x.org Tue Jul 5 13:41:10 2005 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:41:10 +0200 Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1120570870.20667.541.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Di, den 05.07.2005 schrieb Rahul Sundaram um 14:27: > >>Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a > >>opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here > >>http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html I like the idea to know something about the user base (how much users in the different countries, gender proportion [Fedora attractive for female users?], Gnome | KDE rating). > >>What do you think is the best way to do this? I feel it is a must that the data collection is on a volunteers basis. It must be easy to understand, easy to give away data - to know to whom and how much personalized! - and easy to quit submitting the own data. Clear list of transfered information. Any kind of doubts like with the Microsoft Windows? build-in update process must be strictly avoided. > >Not sure about how to do it, but it'd be nice if it also included package > >installation/use info a la the Debian Popularity Contest > >. Nice too. Could be an indicator what to have in Core and what in Extras. Rating third party repository popularity. > Ok so the following tasks then > > * A tool to collect package stats > * A tool to collect hardware information Remembering back the days of Red Hat Linux up2date did something like that. So some code should be there (please don't ask me how much it qualifies for Fedora purposes). RHN registration was an enforcement back in these days to be able to use up2date. > * A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the > project with appropriate "incentives" to do it Yes, must be attractive for the Fedora user to spent time and to offer data. Fedora project gains data, the individual user feels bound to the OS in some way ("proud to be Fedora") > Rahul Some unsorted quick thoughts: - reliable insurance that data can't be misused and be removed by user on request - menu entry or applet for ease of use - applet showing the current Fedora population - world map with locations of registered users (not naming them, not required form entry) - each registered user gets his personal registration number (like http://counter.li.org/), maybe some kind of "certificate" like the seti at home project generates one for number of processed seti packages; counter for age of Fedora community "membership"? - heartbeat functionality to release old database host entries where user didn't signed off - once done initial data registration user must get explicit note about scheduled recollection and must be able to cancel processing Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | GPG http://pgp.mit.edu 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora Core 2 GNU/Linux on Athlon with kernel 2.6.11-1.35_FC2smp Serendipity 15:37:09 up 9 days, 22:29, load average: 0.07, 0.07, 0.15 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 15:20:25 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:20:25 -0400 Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105070508205fde4f33@mail.gmail.com> On 7/5/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > * A tool to collect package stats > * A tool to collect hardware information > * A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the > project with appropriate "incentives" to do it I'd rather know why we..as fedora..are collecting any of this information before we collect it. I want to see concrete plans on how this information is going to be used before we start collecting. Who is going to datamine that package stats information and for what constructive purpose? Who is going to datamine that hardware information and for what constructive purpose? Who is going to datamine geographic and other userdata and for what constructive purpose? I am very much not inclined to building a treasure trove of data... just to have it around because people are somewhat interested in knowing things about the userbase. If there are no concrete plans to use the data as it comes in, I think having a mountain of data its only going to prove to be a burden. Gnome has a stated goal cleverly named "10x10". Getting an estimate of the number of gnome users is clearly needed to know if they are on track to reach that specific goal. Fedora on the other hand, has no grandiose user adoption targets. I don't see a driving reason to build this mountain of information up. I don't see any credible discussion that people agree that the popcon concept is something Fedora is willing to adopt or any other need for use package stats data. I don't see any credible discussion about user adoption targets that could possible need userdata for feedback. I don't see any credible discussion about doing something worthwhile with hardware data if we had it. All i see are some vague expressions of desire to leisurely mine data to get some trending statistics. I don't think that is a good enough reason to start building up the data. I think there needs to be commitment to actually use and process the data as it rolls in. Sitting on a mountain of userdata without doing anything with it as it comes in, is just going to lead to a grotesque mess as people with specific agendas start mining historic data to try to strong arm discussion. -jef From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Jul 5 17:17:40 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Fedora needs a mechanism to collect user and hardware information with a > opt-in mechanism. Similar lines of discussions here > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00042.html > > What do you think is the best way to do this? The 'install coverage testing' project would have done this. I have a really good idea how it 'should' work. The main challenge is finding someone with time to work on it. Best, -- Elliot You can accomplish anything you want, so long as you don't care who gets credit for it. From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jul 6 10:41:29 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:11:29 +0530 Subject: Technetra:Review: Fedora Core 4 Message-ID: <42CBB559.2060808@redhat.com> Hi http://www.technetra.com/writings/recent/review_fedora_core4_html. This was originally published in Linux for you in India " Every Fedora Core release outshines the previous one, Fedora Core 4 maintains this pattern with an excellent collection of the latest open source packages and improved performance. Two areas that still need some work are out-of-the-box sound mixing and package management. My hope is that future releases of Fedora Core will attract even greater community participation, especially as the Fedora Foundation takes shape." regards Rahul From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Jul 6 22:18:07 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:18:07 -0700 Subject: Fedora Booth for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120157577.1433.38.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120157577.1433.38.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120688287.26255.13.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:52 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LinuxWorldSF2005Planning > We had a meeting today to go over the stuff in the wiki, and I have made updates to the page accordingly. I haven't really marked which items are DONE or not, but a lot was discussed and names were assigned to items. Please discuss here if there are any thoughts or questions. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jul 7 15:31:30 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:01:30 +0530 Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <604aa79105070508205fde4f33@mail.gmail.com> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> <604aa79105070508205fde4f33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42CD4AD2.9010507@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On 7/5/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>* A tool to collect package stats >>* A tool to collect hardware information >>* A form to fill out for users to send in more information to the >>project with appropriate "incentives" to do it >> >> > >I'd rather know why we..as fedora..are collecting any of this >information before we collect it. >I want to see concrete plans on how this information is going to be >used before we start collecting. Who is going to datamine that >package stats information and for what constructive purpose? Who is >going to datamine that hardware information and for what constructive >purpose? Who is going to datamine geographic and other userdata and >for what constructive purpose? > >I am very much not inclined to building a treasure trove of data... >just to have it around because people are somewhat interested in >knowing things about the userbase. If there are no concrete plans to >use the data as it comes in, I think having a mountain of data its >only going to prove to be a burden. > > Marketing: Where do we stand in terms of number of users and what kind of users Fedora is attracting Development : What type of hardware works, Whats packages is being utilised more?. What can be moved into extras? regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 16:18:14 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:18:14 -0400 Subject: Collecting information In-Reply-To: <42CD4AD2.9010507@redhat.com> References: <42CA2F5A.8090002@redhat.com> <20050705121833.GA1079@jadzia.bu.edu> <42CA7CAA.9070102@redhat.com> <604aa79105070508205fde4f33@mail.gmail.com> <42CD4AD2.9010507@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050707091812ce3416@mail.gmail.com> On 7/7/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Marketing: Where do we stand in terms of number of users and what kind > of users Fedora is attracting You need to be very careful here... Are there plans to attract or discourage a specific "kind" of user? I'm not sure knowing precise numbers as to the demographics of users provides any useful information unless there is a stated goal or a commitment to service a specific demographic or a stated goal or commitment to reach certain adoption levels (relative or absolute) among different demographics. I haven't seen any discussion about aims or goals about demographics targets. If Fedora installs seem to be relatively low in Finland compared to Brazil, does it matter? Is there a number of installed systems target we are shooting for? If Fedora is popular with one "kind" of users and not so popular with another "kind" of user... do you work to balance that, even if it means making it less popular with the larger group? Or do you aim efforts at making things more appealing to the "kind" of user already drawn to the project and the distro? I think these larger questions need to be answered before you collect any demographics data. As I said before, Gnome at least has some (wacky) stated adoption goals for which that want data for to use to track progress towards that goal. Fedora doesn't have any adoption goals really, and until we agree on goals with regard to adoption demographics I don't see a reason to collect data about it. > Development : What type of hardware works, Is there a commitment from anyone to actually mine that data as it comes in? And just as importantly... to follow up on reports of brokenness as updated packages come. A usable HCL list is going to take real manpower.. and can't be automated. Creating a big data dump without someone committed to actively maintain it seems counter-productive to me. You run the very real risk of having issues linger as "broken" well after they are fixed. if it takes 6 months for a human being to actual mine data about broken hardware... thats not particularly useful information for this project, thats a pretty long time scale in comparison to how quickly update packages get pushed out that impact hardware. This might be useful raw data for developers, I'd like to see what the kernel and X.org developers think about auto-collecting data about "working" or "broken" hardware and if having a big datadump like that would be useful for them in terms of identifying problem areas. If they don't find it useful to build up databank of "raw" data, its probably not going to be worthwhile for end-users. An end-user oriented HCL is going to require a team of people who are committed to sifting through the reports and following up on broken issues as they get fixed with updates quickly. I want to see people step up and commit to that before data is collected. >Whats packages is being utilised more?. What can be moved into extras? Even if you could measure the utility of a package in an accurate way that reasonable accounted for the skew related to "default installs.".. i've seen NO credible discussion among the release team nor the Core developers that popularity or utility is an important criteria for any decisions with regard to Core. I do not want data to be collected about popularity until there is consensous that relative "popularity", "installed", or "usage" of a package is something that is actually going to impact decision-making by the people who actually make those decisions. Taking this data, without a commitment to use this data.. is just going to create opportunities for people to argue unconstructively. First get agreement from Core release team and maintiainers that "utility" or "popularity" of a package is important to the decision to keep it in Core or not, then take the data if that is the concensous view of the people who make these decisions. -jef From lxmaier at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 11:39:37 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:39:37 +0200 Subject: FUDCon in London? Message-ID: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> Hello guys, I am organizing the booth for Red Hat at LinuxWorld Expo, and my idea was to piggyback a FUDCon on LWE UK. The event is on October 5-6, and takes place in London, Olympia. LWE UK is also eager to cooperate with us and have promised to look into how much support they can give us--a couple of rooms, PA system, projector, etc. Michael Tiemann will very likely be in town at the same time, so we could benefit from that by asking him to give a keynote. On my side, I promise undivided attention and all support I can give, including lobbying Red Hat into giving us some money for this FUDCon, like they did for the FUDCon II. What do you think? Should we go for it? a -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Jul 12 12:48:19 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:48:19 -0700 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 13:39 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > I am organizing the booth for Red Hat at LinuxWorld Expo, and my idea > was to piggyback a FUDCon on LWE UK. The event is on October 5-6, and > takes place in London, Olympia. So we're not for FUDCon III happening in San Francisco in August then? Or is this FUDCon IV? Keeping in mind October is 4Q right, so thats a new clean slate on the budget... > On my side, I promise undivided attention and all support I can give, > including lobbying Red Hat into giving us some money for this FUDCon, > like they did for the FUDCon II. Yes, if we can garner the speakers, and there's definitely an active community in London/UK for Fedora users, I'm sure -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Jul 12 12:54:24 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:54:24 -0700 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Marketing meeting Message-ID: <1121172865.8836.24.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Be there or be square Yes, the times are: THURSDAY JULY 15, 15:00 UTC THURSDAY JULY 14, 11:00 Eastern US THURSDAY JULY 14, 08:00 Western US THURSDAY JULY 15, 17:00 Berlin FRIDAY JULY 15, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) The agenda is from my post on July 1st (pasted here for posterity) Be on irc.freenode.net at #fedora-marketing. This should be expected to last a total of 1 hour. See you there. ==agenda== So for our inagural meeting (to which time we ought to decide for), let's discuss: 1. Our goals (greg has suggested "explain, promote and recruit for individual Fedora projects.") 2. A logo competition - have a panel to decide on (non-)goat-like content 3. Swag/goodies - what do we want, after we've achieved (2) 4. How do we reward contributors - who is a contributor? - what levels do we have... - how do we give away (3) conveniently -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From lxmaier at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 12:59:42 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:59:42 +0200 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <7f617d270507120559778f0055@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/05, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 13:39 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > > > I am organizing the booth for Red Hat at LinuxWorld Expo, and my idea > > was to piggyback a FUDCon on LWE UK. The event is on October 5-6, and > > takes place in London, Olympia. > > So we're not for FUDCon III happening in San Francisco in August then? > Or is this FUDCon IV? I do not know about SF for sure, but in any case October is well after that and in Europe, which means it will be drawing on a completely different audience. > Keeping in mind October is 4Q right, so thats a new clean slate on the > budget... This helps us too. Fresh quarter, fresh money :) > > On my side, I promise undivided attention and all support I can give, > > including lobbying Red Hat into giving us some money for this FUDCon, > > like they did for the FUDCon II. > > Yes, if we can garner the speakers, and there's definitely an active > community in London/UK for Fedora users, I'm sure I can give you at least five names off the top of my head, all of whom are based in Europe and will be cheap to fly in, and I am sure we can round up a few more--we only need ten speakers and one or two keynotes to fill the program. Here is who i think we should ask to speak: Alan Cox Steven Tweedie Mark McLoughlin Caolan McNamara Daniel Veillard I assume Michael Tiemann will be there, so here's a keynote number one. Feel free to add names, including your own :) a From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Jul 12 12:58:28 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:58:28 -0700 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Marketing meeting In-Reply-To: <1121172865.8836.24.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121172865.8836.24.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121173108.8836.25.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 05:54 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > Be on irc.freenode.net at #fedora-marketing. This should be expected > to > last a total of 1 hour. That will be #fedora-mktg btw, sorry for the confusion. Thanks mether -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 12 13:59:05 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: FUDCon III is not happening in SF for two reasons: 1. Budget, since it's still Q2FY2006, the same quarter as FUDCon II; 2. Two months between FUDCons is not enough time. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 13:39 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > > > I am organizing the booth for Red Hat at LinuxWorld Expo, and my idea > > was to piggyback a FUDCon on LWE UK. The event is on October 5-6, and > > takes place in London, Olympia. > > So we're not for FUDCon III happening in San Francisco in August then? > Or is this FUDCon IV? > > Keeping in mind October is 4Q right, so thats a new clean slate on the > budget... > > > On my side, I promise undivided attention and all support I can give, > > including lobbying Red Hat into giving us some money for this FUDCon, > > like they did for the FUDCon II. > > Yes, if we can garner the speakers, and there's definitely an active > community in London/UK for Fedora users, I'm sure > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Jul 12 14:11:45 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:11:45 -0400 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20050712141145.GA17675@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 05:48:19AM -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > I am organizing the booth for Red Hat at LinuxWorld Expo, and my idea > > was to piggyback a FUDCon on LWE UK. The event is on October 5-6, and > > takes place in London, Olympia. > So we're not for FUDCon III happening in San Francisco in August then? > Or is this FUDCon IV? I tell you, this numbering scheme leads to madness. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 75 degrees Fahrenheit. From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 12 14:16:07 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <20050712141145.GA17675@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050712141145.GA17675@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: Tell you what: starting in 2006, we'll call every event "FUDCon City Year." All right? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 05:48:19AM -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > > I am organizing the booth for Red Hat at LinuxWorld Expo, and my idea > > > was to piggyback a FUDCon on LWE UK. The event is on October 5-6, and > > > takes place in London, Olympia. > > So we're not for FUDCon III happening in San Francisco in August then? > > Or is this FUDCon IV? > > I tell you, this numbering scheme leads to madness. > > -- > Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org > Boston University Linux ------> > Current office temperature: 75 degrees Fahrenheit. > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From bobhillegas at houston.rr.com Tue Jul 12 16:23:19 2005 From: bobhillegas at houston.rr.com (Bob Hillegas) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:23:19 -0500 Subject: Logo idea.... In-Reply-To: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> I read that one of the proposed logos was a puppy in a gift box wearing a fedora. My suggestion: Turn the Red Fedora upside down (from orientation of RedHat's Logo) and place the puppy (sans hat) inside. Sorry I'm not an artist. Thanks, BobH ================================================= Bob Hillegas cell: 281.546.9311 bobhillegas at houston.rr.com eFax: 419.828.2726 From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Jul 12 19:42:58 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:42:58 -0400 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050712141145.GA17675@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20050712194258.GA29105@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 10:16:07AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Tell you what: starting in 2006, we'll call every event > "FUDCon City Year." > All right? Yeah, I'm all for that. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 12 20:29:58 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:29:58 -0700 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <20050712194258.GA29105@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050712141145.GA17675@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050712194258.GA29105@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1121200198.26925.44.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 15:42 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 10:16:07AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Tell you what: starting in 2006, we'll call every event > > "FUDCon City Year." > > All right? > > Yeah, I'm all for that. Word. This way, if we have to cancel one for some reason, we don't have to renumber. We can just say, "FUDCon San Jose, Costa Rica 2007 is being canceled this year, and we are adding FUDCon Baja California 2007 instead." - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 20:58:36 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:58:36 -0400 Subject: Logo idea.... In-Reply-To: <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> Here's some I came up with back when the periodic table was suggested as inspiration, I just noticed the files were too big to attach and got caught. Here's the link: www.flabbergastic.com The thumbnails are jaggy, click them to see better image. Don't make fun of my Network Solutions template, just make fun of how lazy I am to not have replaced it. --jeremy On 7/12/05, Bob Hillegas wrote: > I read that one of the proposed logos was a puppy in a gift box wearing > a fedora. > > My suggestion: Turn the Red Fedora upside down (from orientation of > RedHat's Logo) and place the puppy (sans hat) inside. > Sorry I'm not an artist. > Thanks, BobH > > ================================================= > Bob Hillegas cell: 281.546.9311 > bobhillegas at houston.rr.com eFax: 419.828.2726 > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Jul 13 06:00:21 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:00:21 +0300 Subject: Logo idea.... In-Reply-To: <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> Message-ID: <42D4ADF5.6090201@nicubunu.ro> Bob Hillegas wrote: > I read that one of the proposed logos was a puppy in a gift box wearing > a fedora. > > My suggestion: Turn the Red Fedora upside down (from orientation of > RedHat's Logo) and place the puppy (sans hat) inside. In fact, having the pup already in a box make it easy to move the same pup inside a hat, here is a try: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/pup_in_a_hat.png Proposals are collected in the wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas What I really would like to see is a concrete plan of action, maybe a roadmap, which will end with having a logo. We really must get this job done (creating the logo) in order to advance to the next level: website buttons, banners, wallpapers, t-shirts etc. -- nicu From mattfrye at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 11:44:50 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:44:50 -0400 Subject: Logo idea.... In-Reply-To: <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050712160109.92B7B741B6@hormel.redhat.com> <42D3EE77.8050105@houston.rr.com> <556f970a05071213585161301@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05071304443200a9b4@mail.gmail.com> On 7/12/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Here's some I came up with back when the periodic table was suggested > as inspiration, I just noticed the files were too big to attach and > got caught. Here's the link: > > www.flabbergastic.com Much, much cooler than the puppy stuff. Awesome in fact. I like the use of the version as atomic number too. MPF From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jul 13 12:44:11 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:44:11 -0700 Subject: The fedora logo In-Reply-To: <1120561079.3768.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1120300051.2789.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120316983.4617.57.camel@cutter> <1120340317.2789.69.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <1120344052.4617.69.camel@cutter> <1120377220.3107.15.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <7f1eacdd05070407071b5bb0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050704152425.GA2260@prozac.horde.com> <1120497667.18966.22.camel@cutter> <1120561079.3768.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1121258651.8836.161.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 12:57 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > yet another puppy linux? > http://www.goosee.com/puppy/ Thats a scary looking puppy; but that aside, we should discuss this at the meeting tomorrow -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From agk at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 20:33:19 2005 From: agk at redhat.com (Alasdair G Kergon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:33:19 +0100 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <7f617d270507120559778f0055@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <7f617d270507120559778f0055@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050713203319.GA12345@agk.surrey.redhat.com> On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 02:59:42PM +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > Feel free to add names, including your own :) Alasdair -- agk at redhat.com From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 20:48:55 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:48:55 +0200 Subject: FUDCon in London? In-Reply-To: <20050713203319.GA12345@agk.surrey.redhat.com> References: <7f617d27050712043920fac09e@mail.gmail.com> <1121172499.8836.15.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <7f617d270507120559778f0055@mail.gmail.com> <20050713203319.GA12345@agk.surrey.redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270507131348513ed8d3@mail.gmail.com> Great, thanks Alasdair--your talks are always guaranteed to draw a crowd! a On 7/13/05, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2005 at 02:59:42PM +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > > Feel free to add names, including your own :) > > Alasdair > -- > agk at redhat.com > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 13 21:46:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:46:42 -0700 Subject: notes from LWCE planning meeting 13 July 2005 Message-ID: <1121291202.31936.9.camel@erato.phig.org> Rough, but ready: LWCE planning for August 2005 SF 13 July 2005 Attendees: ========== Jack Greg Jesse Karsten Warren Spot ################# Equipment: ========== Table skirt Jack has to get to RDU Vinyl sign Logo treatment? not much can be done Greg still to talk to Marketing, if need to Jack look for local to SF vinyl sign provider Hand-outs Take to Marketing meeting T-shirts Greg to send DVDs Greg has this PITA Live CD Jack waiting to hear from Elliot/Summer of Code Jesse to make sure hardware includes CD burner Gift cert and one-offs Greg has to do Greg must send handful of travel mugs, Red Hat water for special needs (to booth) PPC Spot to bring his MacMini Pogo system Sounds like system is coming Projector rental in SF? Monitors Jack waiting for POC at AMD Karsten back up CRTs to lug KM Spot bring keyboard/Mouse for Mini AP Warren to bring his Power strips Warren has this one Shipping All covered currently Presentations: ============== Call for papers Spot - building good packages Extras - what it is, why it is (Spot) Webbink? Marketing: ========== Advertising our booth Fedoraproject.org mag Greg ongoing Red Hat Magazine Copy due this Friday, 19 July to go in Free passes Going out this coming Friday Handout Description of project, sub-projects, URLs Jack/Greg, Karsten formatting clean-up BOF 9 Aug. 5:30 - 7 pm (Jack arranged) Loc. Unknown BOF room Show prize entry Jack has Greg to confirm no conflicts with Red Hat entries Presentation coordinator tabled until needed Message for the show Tabled community involvement - extras, documentation Logo type fun follow-up later Staffing (aka Manpower): ======================== Exhibitor badges Jack has covered this Warren added Setup/Tear down 8th - booth available by 11 am, 6 pm finish All - put in your availability schedule How to get reliable manpower Solicit fedora-maintainers Greg - get us the list of RH booth people to solicit Karsten - solicit MTV Schedule - 27th set in stone -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tp at alternativ.net Thu Jul 14 07:24:15 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:24:15 +0200 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Marketing meeting In-Reply-To: <1121172865.8836.24.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121172865.8836.24.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1121325855.2996.4.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Dienstag, den 12.07.2005, 05:54 -0700 schrieb Colin Charles: > Be there or be square > > Yes, the times are: > > THURSDAY JULY 15, 15:00 UTC > THURSDAY JULY 14, 11:00 Eastern US > THURSDAY JULY 14, 08:00 Western US > THURSDAY JULY 15, 17:00 Berlin today is THURSDAY JULY 14 in Germany. So what date do you mean? -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci at jabber.org From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 14 07:36:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:36:17 -0700 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Marketing meeting In-Reply-To: <1121325855.2996.4.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1121172865.8836.24.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1121325855.2996.4.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1121326577.31936.74.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 09:24 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 12.07.2005, 05:54 -0700 schrieb Colin Charles: > > Be there or be square > > > > Yes, the times are: > > > > THURSDAY JULY 15, 15:00 UTC > > THURSDAY JULY 14, 11:00 Eastern US > > THURSDAY JULY 14, 08:00 Western US > > THURSDAY JULY 15, 17:00 Berlin > > today is THURSDAY JULY 14 in Germany. So what date do you mean? I think the Thursday is the key. 15 July won't fall on a Thursday until 2010. OTOH, it -will- be Friday 15 July anywhere East of Tokyo and West of the international dateline. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Jul 14 08:06:09 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:06:09 +0800 (WST) Subject: marketing meeting Message-ID: <2628.192.168.0.104.1121328369.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Where does this marketing meeting take place. I'm an onlooker with ideas although very minimal talents :( However I'm in Australia I'm just curious as to how to contribute and also whether there will be a 'report' type thing put somewhere for other people to read who are interested in contributing. BTW hey all my first mail -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jul 14 13:56:31 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:56:31 -0700 Subject: marketing meeting In-Reply-To: <2628.192.168.0.104.1121328369.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <2628.192.168.0.104.1121328369.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1121349391.3299.3.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 16:06 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Where does this marketing meeting take place. I'm an onlooker with ideas > although very minimal talents :( irc.freenode.net, #fedora-mktg > However I'm in Australia Rocking, so am I > I'm just curious as to how to contribute and also whether there will be a > 'report' type thing put somewhere for other people to read who are > interested in contributing. There will be a "report back" feature. Use the list, and if its more prevalent later, use the wiki > BTW hey all my first mail Welcome to fedora land! -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jul 17 14:56:28 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:56:28 -0400 Subject: OSCON 2005 Message-ID: <1121612188.3299.302.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Is anyone in the area? Going? Want to scream about Fedora there? http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Jul 18 19:12:31 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:12:31 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: fedora guide] Message-ID: <1121713951.3299.474.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Didn't we have folk here wanting to talk about user sites? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Max Kanat-Alexander Subject: Re: fedora guide Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:13:13 -0700 Size: 4854 URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Jul 18 19:26:13 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:26:13 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Gtk+ 2.8 for GNOME 2.12] Message-ID: <1121714773.3299.479.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Look at the bits by Luis Villa at the bottom. What can we do about increasing QA of the distro? Jack, you're reading this I know, so how can this tie in with triage? Whom do we/how can we _market_ to possible new QA'ers? Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Luis Villa Subject: Re: Gtk+ 2.8 for GNOME 2.12 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:05:10 -0400 Size: 5604 URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Jul 19 01:15:45 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:15:45 +0800 (WST) Subject: Fedora review Message-ID: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Hi All, I don't know if this has been posted on the list or not but situations like this need to be looked at because it can only hinder the progress of Fedora over time unfortunately. http://distrocenter.linux.com/distrocenter/05/07/11/2327245.shtml?tid=107&tid=127 -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 03:37:27 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:37:27 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1121744248.16844.62.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 09:15 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Hi All, > > I don't know if this has been posted on the list or not but situations > like this need to be looked at because it can only hinder the progress of > Fedora over time unfortunately. > > http://distrocenter.linux.com/distrocenter/05/07/11/2327245.shtml?tid=107&tid=127 I don't think this has been posted, and we definitely appreciate postings to this list of all review of Fedora. Rahul, for one, takes the effort to contact writers and set them straight on the facts. I can see what directions in that article I think need correction. I'm curious what you see? * Worrying about OOo being beta. FC is specifically cutting edge. Mincing words about beta in a release is contrary to the spirit and history of highly advancing open source. Beta and release are subjective terms. "While I've had no problems with it and no crashes, a beta release in what is considered to be a stable operating system feels out of place." * Totally not understanding the story behind patent infringing technologies. "Worse, Fedora Core 4 gets low marks for multimedia. I encountered an overwhelming number of bugs in this area. There is no support for proprietary formats such as Windows Media, DVD, and MP3, though having used past Red Hat/Fedora releases, I would expect nothing more. Previously, enabling these multimedia types was not a hard task, but this time, it's daunting." * Not even attempting to understand the difference between what is in the distro and what is supplied by other repositories: "I tried enabling these proprietary media files the same way I did this in previous Fedora releases, which was to install Apt4RPM, a great package management tool, and use that to install the necessary packages. That worked in previous Fedora releases, but not in Fedora Core 4." All in all, a very annoying read. Thanks for sharing with us. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sankar at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 03:44:37 2005 From: sankar at redhat.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhay) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:14:37 +0530 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I don't know if this has been posted on the list or not but situations > like this need to be looked at because it can only hinder the progress of > Fedora over time unfortunately. > > http://distrocenter.linux.com/distrocenter/05/07/11/2327245.shtml?tid=107&tid=127 If you mean the following: > Worse, Fedora Core 4 gets low marks for multimedia. Most of them would be answered here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems Rgds SM -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC3Hcl+g4kmZ76nyERAgoCAJ0Y73o3Md0H8JtTPBa10d/6pcfQjACcC516 8tiDbCwC6+VAKsr0es1fFOc= =HSnG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From caillon at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 04:08:22 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:08:22 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhay wrote: > Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > >>I don't know if this has been posted on the list or not but situations >>like this need to be looked at because it can only hinder the progress of >>Fedora over time unfortunately. >> >>http://distrocenter.linux.com/distrocenter/05/07/11/2327245.shtml?tid=107&tid=127 > > > If you mean the following: > > > >>Worse, Fedora Core 4 gets low marks for multimedia. > > > > > Most of them would be answered here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems > But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is a problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its not helping our users? From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Jul 19 04:16:14 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:16:14 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050719041614.GA28174@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:08:22AM -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems > But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is a > problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its not > helping our users? Hmmm -- the default firefox bookmarks in uptates/testing/3 seem to still be "Red Hat, Inc.", "Red Hat Network", "Red Hat Linux Documentation", etc. Maybe the Fedora Wiki could be there instead? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 80 degrees Fahrenheit. From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Jul 19 04:21:51 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:21:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <20050719041614.GA28174@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <20050719041614.GA28174@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20050719042151.GA28464@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:16:14AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems > > But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is a > > problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its not > > helping our users? > Hmmm -- the default firefox bookmarks in uptates/testing/3 seem to still be > "Red Hat, Inc.", "Red Hat Network", "Red Hat Linux Documentation", etc. > Maybe the Fedora Wiki could be there instead? PS: serious suggestion, not just being a smartass because you're the maintainer of that package. :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 80 degrees Fahrenheit. From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Jul 19 04:40:50 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:40:50 +0800 (WST) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121744248.16844.62.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1121744248.16844.62.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3560.192.168.0.104.1121748050.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Hi All, Although that was fairly constructive in relation to adding the wiki in the browsers for further clarification and helping out new users to links and the like could we possibly add fedora forum and maybe fedora faq. The only problem that might happen with adding those is that they suggest multimedia support and that might go against the grain of fedora or what fedora stands for. I think Karsten listed all the major ones that I read and I thought that weren't right. I installed FC4 and had no issues in fact I think its a major improvement granted there are bugs but being bleeding edge was the reason for me getting involved with fedora. I wonder whether he filled bug reports? IMO most of the complaints centred around multimedia which I managed to get going very quickly anyway in my install. He's trying apt compared to yum albeit it worked before but the repositories take time to update for apt. Compared to yum which updates rapidly. Also I believe the majority of apt repositories are NOT fedora-extras or the 'genuine' fedora repository correct me if I'm wrong. The problem is this is a linux guy that has spread FUD and I'm not sure how many people believe him so I'm wondering how many people /won't/ try fedora because of this. Its hard enough facing other OS FUD let alone facing it from inside. I'm assuming that its a fine line between honest criticism and actual misinformation. IMO as well is that articles like this need to be dealt with in some way by the 'marketing' group so that as a group we can progress towards people knowing exactly what fedora is and isn't. The long term users understand, but the new users don't understand and they would be reading articles like this and saying well thats a buggy os I'm definately not trying it now. I don't feel that we want Fedora to become an experienced user distro because fresh blood is great for finding bugs as well as putting genuine ideas forward that people maybe have not considered. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra Choice Tyre Wholesalers > On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 09:15 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> Hi All, >> I don't know if this has been posted on the list or not but situations like this need to be looked at because it can only hinder the progress of >> Fedora over time unfortunately. >> http://distrocenter.linux.com/distrocenter/05/07/11/2327245.shtml?tid=107&tid=127 > > I don't think this has been posted, and we definitely appreciate postings to this list of all review of Fedora. Rahul, for one, takes the effort to contact writers and set them straight on the facts. > > I can see what directions in that article I think need correction. I'm curious what you see? > > * Worrying about OOo being beta. FC is specifically cutting edge. Mincing words about beta in a release is contrary to the spirit and history of highly advancing open source. Beta and release are > subjective terms. > > "While I've had no problems with it and no crashes, a beta release in > what is considered to be a stable operating system feels out of place." > > * Totally not understanding the story behind patent infringing > technologies. > > "Worse, Fedora Core 4 gets low marks for multimedia. I encountered an > overwhelming number of bugs in this area. There is no support for proprietary formats such as Windows Media, DVD, and MP3, though having used past Red Hat/Fedora releases, I would expect nothing more. Previously, enabling these multimedia types was not a hard task, but this time, it's daunting." > > * Not even attempting to understand the difference between what is in the distro and what is supplied by other repositories: > > "I tried enabling these proprietary media files the same way I did > this in previous Fedora releases, which was to install Apt4RPM, a great package management tool, and use that to install the necessary packages. That worked in previous Fedora releases, but not in Fedora Core 4." > > All in all, a very annoying read. Thanks for sharing with us. :) > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Jul 19 05:05:09 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:05:09 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <3560.192.168.0.104.1121748050.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1121744248.16844.62.camel@erato.phig.org> <3560.192.168.0.104.1121748050.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <20050719050509.GA29701@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:40:50PM +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > The problem is this is a linux guy that has spread FUD and I'm not sure > how many people believe him so I'm wondering how many people /won't/ try Let's keep our own labels correct. This article doesn't appear to be FUD (which is by definition a malicious underhanded tactic) but rather an honest but somewhat ill-informed review. > fedora because of this. Its hard enough facing other OS FUD let alone > facing it from inside. I'm assuming that its a fine line between honest > criticism and actual misinformation. Sure -- and both of those things are still on this side of the big line marked "FUD". :) > IMO as well is that articles like this need to be dealt with in some way > by the 'marketing' group so that as a group we can progress towards people > knowing exactly what fedora is and isn't. The long term users understand, It's also important that articles like this are "dealt with" not just by "correcting" the reviewer -- it's also important to take a honest look at any *real* problems that are exposed, even if the complaint doesn't feel fair at first to an insider. For example, the gripe about OpenOffice warning that it's a beta version with no obvious explanation..... -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 80 degrees Fahrenheit. From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Jul 19 05:16:06 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:16:06 +0800 (WST) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <20050719050509.GA29701@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1121744248.16844.62.camel@erato.phig.org> <3560.192.168.0.104.1121748050.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <20050719050509.GA29701@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <3585.192.168.0.104.1121750166.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra Choice Tyre Wholesalers > On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:40:50PM +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> The problem is this is a linux guy that has spread FUD and I'm not sure >> how many people believe him so I'm wondering how many people /won't/ try > > Let's keep our own labels correct. This article doesn't appear to be FUD > (which is by definition a malicious underhanded tactic) but rather an > honest > but somewhat ill-informed review. Wrong wording but I'm still very patriotic to fedora if that can be used together. > >> fedora because of this. Its hard enough facing other OS FUD let alone >> facing it from inside. I'm assuming that its a fine line between honest >> criticism and actual misinformation. > > Sure -- and both of those things are still on this side of the big line > marked "FUD". :) > > >> IMO as well is that articles like this need to be dealt with in some way >> by the 'marketing' group so that as a group we can progress towards >> people >> knowing exactly what fedora is and isn't. The long term users >> understand, > > It's also important that articles like this are "dealt with" not just by > "correcting" the reviewer -- it's also important to take a honest look at > any *real* problems that are exposed, even if the complaint doesn't feel > fair at first to an insider. For example, the gripe about OpenOffice > warning > that it's a beta version with no obvious explanation..... > Granted however it seemed really one sided. He/she seemed very much wanting things to be 'closer' to the put in and install straight away type which I personally don't like but everyone to his own. The complaints however seemed like the majority is caused by him however there was no acknowledgement of his perceived ways of doing things. The fact that his choice was apt seemed to be that he was assessing(typo) from a debian perspective which I think is not in the 'spirit' of how to do things. Since Fedora is obviously not a debian fork or debian based distro. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Jul 19 05:55:07 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:55:07 +0300 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Gtk+ 2.8 for GNOME 2.12] In-Reply-To: <1121714773.3299.479.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121714773.3299.479.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42DC95BB.50503@nicubunu.ro> Colin Charles wrote: > Look at the bits by Luis Villa at the bottom. What can we do about > increasing QA of the distro? Jack, you're reading this I know, so how > can this tie in with triage? Whom do we/how can we _market_ to possible > new QA'ers? Ath this point the scheduled date for FC5 release (13 February) is very close to GNOME 2.14 (beginning of March) and this leave two possibilities: - FC5 to use GNOME 2.14 (even if this means a couple of weeks of delay for FC) - FC5 to use late and more tested point release, for example GNOME 2.12.2 or 2.12.3 Any of those two possibilities means *less* incentives for Fedora users to test the 2.12 branch, which looks doomed from the perspective of Fedora releases. One possible soulution I see: target 2.14 for FC5 and promise an official upgrade from 2.10 to 2.12 for FC4, making this way the users to care about GNOME 2.12 -- nicu From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 07:11:31 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:11:31 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <20050719042151.GA28464@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <20050719041614.GA28174@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050719042151.GA28464@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1121757091.5590.10.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 00:21 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:16:14AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems > > > But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is a > > > problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its not > > > helping our users? > > Hmmm -- the default firefox bookmarks in uptates/testing/3 seem to still be > > "Red Hat, Inc.", "Red Hat Network", "Red Hat Linux Documentation", etc. > > Maybe the Fedora Wiki could be there instead? > > PS: serious suggestion, not just being a smartass because you're the > maintainer of that package. :) It's a good suggestion. AFAIK, we are now clear to link to fedorafaq.org and other sites that themselves link to information that is non-free or possibly infringing on patents. We cannot link directly to such possibly-infringing sites. For these bookmarks, here are a few I'd add. Matt, do you want to file the RFE? :) fedorafaq.org fedorausers.org fedoralinks.org fedora.redhat.com/docs fedoraproject.org/wiki fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 13:50:27 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Christopher Aillon wrote: > But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is > a problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its > not helping our users? Um, it's helping our developers? I will agree that we need to do a better of job at answering questions like "why doesn't Fedora do this or that?" and getting the word out. But the wiki is not necessarily the place to do that. === That said: We've been arguing a lot about "what's our mission?" And that mission, in a nutshell, is "to communicate important information about Fedora to users." Here's some pretty important information: * Fedora is cutting-edge, because it's the best way to innovate. * Fedora is patent-free, because it's the RIGHT thing to do. Specifically when it comes to the second message, I think we need to promote the idea AGGRESSIVELY. For instance: "No audio? Funny, there's an ogg player in Fedora, and I play audio just fine with it. Why aren't you using it? Oh, because you're paying lip service to the importance of open standards? Ah, well then. I suppose if you have to have your mp3s, we'll never get anywhere as a community, now will we?" Of course, it's better if we can boil that down to a sentence. How's this for some sloganeering? They'd make good bumperstickers: * FEDORA: PATENT-FREE SINCE 2003. * MAKE OGG, NOT MP3. * IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN SOFTWARE PATENTS, DON'T USE PATENTED SOFTWARE. People won't get it until we hit them over the head with it. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 14:15:21 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:15:21 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I will agree that we need to do a better of job at answering questions > like "why doesn't Fedora do this or that?" and getting the word out. But > the wiki is not necessarily the place to do that. I personally, as a person, think that reviewers would most benefit from a guided tour experience where the nicer or newer things are highlighted and the consistently more contraversial items like the lack of mp3 support are explained. Other very new users would of course benefit from such a guided tour. Think of it as our highlight reel. Provide access to the highlight reel on firstboot and later via a menu item. Being able to do this in a livecd format would make some sense as well as providing the guided tour experience in the standard desktop install. I quick an dirty way to mock up some guided segments is to just come up with a top ten list of tasks that we think 90% of "reviewers" going to want to perform as part of their review process.. and then do a quick video capture segment of starting with a default gnome desktop and performing the task. Using a small text editor or sticky note pad window to type in text notes as you go. We've seen some developers do this in blog entries already.. i think you can do it to theora or svg, I know you can do it with flash but we cant depend on flash since we dont ship flash support...yet. You could of course go further and do semi-professional video editting with audio and translations, but as a first cut the video captures of a desktop in use with simple text notes in the video serves the purpose pretty well. Of course, some reviewers LOVE to base their reviews on the final test release so they can have their review out on the day of the final release. Getting guided segments out soon enough to stick into the face of the first reviewers is going to be tough. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 14:18:39 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I personally, as a person, think that reviewers would most benefit > from a guided tour experience where the nicer or newer things are > highlighted and the consistently more controversial items like the > lack of mp3 support are explained. Other very new users would of > course benefit from such a guided tour. Think of it as our highlight > reel. Provide access to the highlight reel on firstboot and later via > a menu item. Being able to do this in a livecd format would make some > sense as well as providing the guided tour experience in the standard > desktop install. This is a good idea. Potentially resource-intensive, and complicated, to do it right. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 14:35:29 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:35:29 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is a good idea. Potentially resource-intensive, and complicated, to > do it right. Isn't everything? And who says we have to do it perfectly right the first time? Doing audio or text overlay or any editting at all is going to complicate things sure... but maybe we don't "need" that to make a positive impact compared to where we are now. Are rough theora video captures of desktop tasks better than nothing? Are rough video captures "good enough"? Initially just sticking them on the website and having the release notes and the default browser page list the rough.. "community provided" walk-through theora videos for the top 10 tasks could be a benefit. And from there if people with video editting experience in the community can volunteer to do a more polished second generation...fine. -jef"I've always found that magic bullets tend to be expensive"spaleta From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 14:41:13 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is a good idea. Potentially resource-intensive, and complicated, to > > do it right. > > Isn't everything? And who says we have to do it perfectly right the > first time? Doing audio or text overlay or any editting at all is > going to complicate things sure... but maybe we don't "need" that to > make a positive impact compared to where we are now. Are rough theora > video captures of desktop tasks better than nothing? Are rough video > captures "good enough"? In the particular case of *video*, I think the answer is "it depends." Because bad video can, in fact, be worse than no video (cf. "FUDCon1"). Note: I'm not saying that we couldn't or shouldn't try it. Does anyone within the sound of our voices have the chops for this? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 14:54:03 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:54:03 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050719075410d876f2@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > In the particular case of *video*, I think the answer is "it depends." > Because bad video can, in fact, be worse than no video (cf. "FUDCon1"). unlike fudcon.. we arent talking about setting a camera or additional hardware.. all the capture stuff that I'm talking about is done in software.. i think some of the technics essentially act as a vnc client to a vnc session. grrr i can't remember which of the gnome developers had their little videos on their blog.... -jef From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 15:11:04 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050719075410d876f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719075410d876f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If there's precedent for this being done easily and well, then let's steal, steal, steal. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > In the particular case of *video*, I think the answer is "it depends." > > Because bad video can, in fact, be worse than no video (cf. "FUDCon1"). > > unlike fudcon.. we arent talking about setting a camera or additional > hardware.. all the capture stuff that I'm talking about is done in > software.. i think some of the technics essentially act as a vnc > client to a vnc session. > > grrr i can't remember which of the gnome developers had their little > videos on their blog.... > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From caillon at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 15:11:55 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:11:55 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42DD183B.90802@redhat.com> On 07/19/2005 09:50 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Christopher Aillon wrote: > > > >>But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is >>a problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its >>not helping our users? >> >> > >Um, it's helping our developers? > > Yes. My sentence should have read "What good is the wiki for our users if its not helping them?" Expecting Joe User to find these answers on random websites is not really a good option. >Specifically when it comes to the second message, I think we need to >promote the idea AGGRESSIVELY. > > >People won't get it until we hit them over the head with it. > Agreed. Besides, Greg, you know I'm always up for hitting people over the head. :-) From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:20:43 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:20:43 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719075410d876f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105071908205f6706ab@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > If there's precedent for this being done easily and well, then let's > steal, steal, steal. :) bah...crap.. davidz used a flash based capture in his blog http://blog.fubar.dk/?p=56 -jef From caillon at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 15:22:05 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:22:05 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <20050719041614.GA28174@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <20050719041614.GA28174@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <42DD1A9D.8020701@redhat.com> On 07/19/2005 12:16 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:08:22AM -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > > >>>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems >>> >>> >>But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is a >>problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its not >>helping our users? >> >> > >Hmmm -- the default firefox bookmarks in uptates/testing/3 seem to still be >"Red Hat, Inc.", "Red Hat Network", "Red Hat Linux Documentation", etc. > >Maybe the Fedora Wiki could be there instead? > I've actually been considering this for a bit. It's probably too late for FC3 and FC4 (default installs will have the current default, and updates won't fix that.). We can do it for FC5 though, but I'd like to see it done in one shot rather than change a bookmark here, a bookmark there.... I'm not sure I want to get into suggestion war over this, either. I'll probably attempt to come up with a reasonable set of defaults one of these days with a few people and stick it in the rawhide packages. From marketing-list at fedoralinks.org Tue Jul 19 14:55:52 2005 From: marketing-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:55:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121784952.9159.3.camel@cbccws01.cbcchome.cbccgroup.com> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 10:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > In the particular case of *video*, I think the answer is "it depends." > Because bad video can, in fact, be worse than no video (cf. "FUDCon1"). > > Note: I'm not saying that we couldn't or shouldn't try it. Does anyone > within the sound of our voices have the chops for this? > > --g > The latest VMware Workstation has the ability to make a "video capture" of a Virtual Machine. While I have not used this feature yet I will give it a try. I also have not done any Video editing in Linux, There is no time like now to make that happen. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen Linux User Web - http://www.fedoralinks.org/ Web - http://scalug.us/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:43:58 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:43:58 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719075410d876f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050719084340a97301@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > If there's precedent for this being done easily and well, then let's > steal, steal, steal. :) thomasvs to the recue!!!!! instanbul which j5 has packaged.... and is trying to get it into extras now. http://people.redhat.com/johnp/istanbul/ it encodes into theora by default... its a little cpu intensive on the encoding so i hear.. but for this purpose... that does not matter. Its soon to be an in Fedora tool, which means its available to the entire community to use... and by using it to build task videos we provide feedback on performance and additional testing of the theora encoding. As soon as j5 actually gets this into extras is pretty much the "good enough" solution to play with. I think j5 even had a blog entry showing how it works...but i cant find it at the moment. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 15:59:54 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050719084340a97301@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719075410d876f2@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719084340a97301@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm seeing a new HOWTO for the docs team... "HOWTO make a video tutorial for Fedora..." --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > If there's precedent for this being done easily and well, then let's > > steal, steal, steal. :) > > thomasvs to the recue!!!!! > > instanbul which j5 has packaged.... and is trying to get it into extras now. > http://people.redhat.com/johnp/istanbul/ > > it encodes into theora by default... its a little cpu intensive on the > encoding so i hear.. but for this purpose... that does not matter. > Its soon to be an in Fedora tool, which means its available to the > entire community to use... and by using it to build task videos we > provide feedback on performance and additional testing of the theora > encoding. As soon as j5 actually gets this into extras is pretty much > the "good enough" solution to play with. > > I think j5 even had a blog entry showing how it works...but i cant > find it at the moment. > > -jef > From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 18:08:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:08:52 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 10:35 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is a good idea. Potentially resource-intensive, and complicated, to > > do it right. > > -jef"I've always found that magic bullets tend to be expensive"spaleta These screencasts have been added to the list of acceptable documentation formats for Fedora. We've been researching solutions for several weeks. Our basic idea was to supplement our docs with screencasts. However, this idea of having multiple screencasts available during firstboot is awesome. BTW, this is not rocket science, but details need to be resolved in the FOSS side. Tech journalists do this all the time, using proprietary tools, so it's not that difficult. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 18:12:43 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:12:43 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > BTW, this is not rocket science, but details need to be resolved in the > FOSS side. ive got istanbul building and installing on my smp rawhide box now, with minor modifications to j5's current spec file. Can't test it till i get home, but assuming it works I can post some examples of theora videos tomorrow. Name 3 specific tasks you'd like to see mockup theora videos created by istanbul. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 19 18:32:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:32:59 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 14:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > BTW, this is not rocket science, but details need to be resolved in the > > FOSS side. > > ive got istanbul building and installing on my smp rawhide box now, > with minor modifications to j5's current spec file. Can't test it till > i get home, but assuming it works I can post some examples of theora > videos tomorrow. Name 3 specific tasks you'd like to see mockup > theora videos created by istanbul. 1. Making MP3s play in XMMS Just kidding! I'll add this topic to the FDSCo meeting agenda for today (4 pm EDT), to see if anyone has any favorites there, and will post them back here. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 18:37:27 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:37:27 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1121798248.3725.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 11:32 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 14:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 7/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > BTW, this is not rocket science, but details need to be resolved in the > > > FOSS side. > > > > ive got istanbul building and installing on my smp rawhide box now, > > with minor modifications to j5's current spec file. Can't test it till > > i get home, but assuming it works I can post some examples of theora > > videos tomorrow. Name 3 specific tasks you'd like to see mockup > > theora videos created by istanbul. > > 1. Making MP3s play in XMMS > > Just kidding! /me runs away, gibbering and tearing out hair... :-D What about a screencast of (1) navigating to, and (2) putting shortcuts to, good sources for official Fedora info? See previous thread on what's OK to link. This seems ludicrous unless you remember the "general user" category (*cough cough* f-devel-l thread o' doom *cough*). -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Jul 19 18:43:55 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:43:55 +0100 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121798248.3725.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <1121798248.3725.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121798635.31619.238795236@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:37:27 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" said: > On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 11:32 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 14:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On 7/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > BTW, this is not rocket science, but details need to be resolved in the > > > > FOSS side. > > > > > > ive got istanbul building and installing on my smp rawhide box now, > > > with minor modifications to j5's current spec file. Can't test it till > > > i get home, but assuming it works I can post some examples of theora > > > videos tomorrow. Name 3 specific tasks you'd like to see mockup > > > theora videos created by istanbul. Configuring the update applet is fairly common and easy task, since it doesn't have many decision points - you can basically just click "Next" if you don't have a proxy server. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 19:09:38 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:09:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'll add this topic to the FDSCo meeting agenda for today (4 pm EDT), to > see if anyone has any favorites there, and will post them back here. well i got impatient and tried to start it via a vino session remotely... getting tracebacks from the 0.1.1 version i lifted from his directory so there might be some bugs that j5 needs to look at. -jef"istanbul is such a tease"spaleta From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Jul 19 20:56:03 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:56:03 -0400 Subject: redhat scholarships Message-ID: <1121806563.3251.137.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> http://www.in.redhat.com/news/article/53.html Now, can we have Red Hat sponsor "fedora scholarships" ? I.e. get people coding on Fedora, for money[1]. Something like Google's Summer of Code... [1] - and if really successful, move along to what the ubuntu foundation is doing - paying people to keep Legacy alive, etc. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 21:44:41 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:44:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > well i got impatient and tried to start it via a vino session > remotely... getting tracebacks from the 0.1.1 version i lifted from > his directory so there might be some bugs that j5 needs to look at. Yep I just got confirmation about the problem from j5. My little experiment using istanbul or more primatively gst-launch is going to have to wait for a new version of gstreamer-plugins in rawhide that includes the ximagesrc plugin. As soon as j5 has the time( and this by no means is meant to make him feel rushed ) to push the update to gstreamer-plugins anyone running rawhide, including myself, will be able to follow up with some example raw theora videos either using gst-launch from the cmdline or with istanbul. -jef"the real question is.. can I come up with a name better than 'monkey hoot' for my new video production endeavor"spaleta From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Jul 19 22:14:21 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:14:21 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 17:44 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > -jef"the real question is.. can I come up with a name better than > 'monkey hoot' for my new video production endeavor"spaleta > Scapegoat Pictures. "Don't blame us, we didn't make it..." -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 23:25:24 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:25:24 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105071916254b921ac9@mail.gmail.com> On 7/19/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > Scapegoat Pictures. "Don't blame us, we didn't make it..." niiiiiiiiiice. And that names going to come in handy right away. The problem I was having.. has been fixed.. without needing to do any rebuilding of core packages. I ran gst-register as root and ximagesrc is now availalbe. The packages I made for istanbul work. With J5's blessing I'll try to maintain them in Extras for the development tree. Now that the underlying problem is solved i can give you some mockup walk-through videos using gst-launch pipelines or with istanbul. -jef From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jul 20 06:07:45 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:37:45 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Gtk+ 2.8 for GNOME 2.12] In-Reply-To: <42DC95BB.50503@nicubunu.ro> References: <1121714773.3299.479.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DC95BB.50503@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <42DDEA31.3070202@redhat.com> Hi > > One possible soulution I see: target 2.14 for FC5 and promise an > official upgrade from 2.10 to 2.12 for FC4, making this way the users > to care about GNOME 2.12 Upgrading to major releases such as this requires more testing outside of rawhide. I am not sure this is the right approach regards Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Jul 20 06:39:36 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:39:36 +0300 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Gtk+ 2.8 for GNOME 2.12] In-Reply-To: <42DDEA31.3070202@redhat.com> References: <1121714773.3299.479.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DC95BB.50503@nicubunu.ro> <42DDEA31.3070202@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42DDF1A8.4040909@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> >> One possible soulution I see: target 2.14 for FC5 and promise an >> official upgrade from 2.10 to 2.12 for FC4, making this way the users >> to care about GNOME 2.12 > > > Upgrading to major releases such as this requires more testing outside > of rawhide. I am not sure this is the right approach Here is another possible approach: FC5 is scheduled for February, 9 months after FC4, with the test1 release scheduled for November. How about a test0 release in September, just after GNOME 2.12 was released and integrated into RAWHIDE? This could be beneficial if FC5 is going to use GNOME 2.12 but useless if 2.14 will be the version used. (I expect at this point this is not yet decided, but is important). Anyway, with a GNOME release in September and a Fedora containing it 6 months after it, expect Fedora users to use alternate repositories to get a current GNOME (like nrpms.net), thus providing no feed-back to Fedora or to experiment with Ubuntu (again, no feed-back for Fedora). -- nicu From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 20 07:12:10 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:12:10 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa79105071916254b921ac9@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <604aa7910507190715340091c6@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <604aa79105071916254b921ac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121843530.20245.21.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 19:25 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/19/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Scapegoat Pictures. "Don't blame us, we didn't make it..." > > niiiiiiiiiice. > > And that names going to come in handy right away. The problem I was > having.. has been fixed.. without needing to do any rebuilding of core > packages. I ran gst-register as root and ximagesrc is now availalbe. > The packages I made for istanbul work. > With J5's blessing I'll try to maintain them in Extras for the development tree. > > Now that the underlying problem is solved i can give you some mockup > walk-through videos using gst-launch pipelines or with istanbul. Even the mid-resolution one you did today looks good, it can expand to be much larger and was quite legible (considering). If you want to rough out and write up the basic HOWTO for this, how about using the Wiki? We can take that and DocBookify it down the road, but having it be a living document that is not hidden in CVS would be good. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 13:13:06 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:13:06 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Gtk+ 2.8 for GNOME 2.12] In-Reply-To: <42DDF1A8.4040909@nicubunu.ro> References: <1121714773.3299.479.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DC95BB.50503@nicubunu.ro> <42DDEA31.3070202@redhat.com> <42DDF1A8.4040909@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa79105072006135c01c3e8@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Anyway, with a GNOME release in September and a Fedora containing it 6 > months after it, expect Fedora users to use alternate repositories to > get a current GNOME (like nrpms.net), thus providing no feed-back to > Fedora or to experiment with Ubuntu (again, no feed-back for Fedora). I plan to give feedback through fc5 regardless of how this gnome release scheduling issue shakes out. So its probably technically incorrect to say "no feedback." Potentially "less feedback". People use nrpms and ubuntu now for a variety of reasons, I'm not sure much is going to change in that regard. I somewhat doubt the implication that all or most or even a sizable group of users are going to jump off of Core provided binaries because of this. The lack of a gnome 2.12 any any fedora release is a noteworthy concern, but until we hear from the maintainers as to their plans on how to handle it. I'm not sure its worth the effort to engage in protracted back and forth over options from the sidelines and certaintly not worth it with regard to a marketting or informational focus. So i encourage you to talk to the people responsible for getting the fedora desktop stuff out and ask them how they plan to handle gnome 2.12, I'm not sure any of them actually sit on this list. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:27:12 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:27:12 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121843530.20245.21.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <604aa79105071916254b921ac9@mail.gmail.com> <1121843530.20245.21.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa791050720072724e66977@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > If you want to rough out and write up the basic HOWTO for this, how > about using the Wiki? We can take that and DocBookify it down the road, > but having it be a living document that is not hidden in CVS would be > good. yeah i can do that. The big issue right now is dropped frames because the cpu can't keep up with the requested image grabbing rate in some situations. I'm hoping to come up with a standard prescription with regard to desktop resolution, framerate, encoded image size for all videos being produced. This will imply a minimum cpu requirement to ensure no frame-drops using what we have available for gstreamer-plugins right now in rawhide. I need to come up with a simple test for frame-dropping that aspiring video-makers can run quickly to see if their hardware is keeping up for the "standard" video configuration. The ximagesrc gst element should improve over time so some of the issues here with regard to frame dropping should evaporate as part of rawhide churn towards fc5. I think long term you'll want to standardize on a low resolution desktop anyways so that you can encode to a reasonably sized image without loss of detail. 640x480 might be too small.. but 800x600 might be a reasonable desktop resolution to use when making task videos. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:47:03 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:47:03 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050720072724e66977@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <604aa79105071916254b921ac9@mail.gmail.com> <1121843530.20245.21.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050720072724e66977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1121870823.3237.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 10:27 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/20/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > If you want to rough out and write up the basic HOWTO for this, how > > about using the Wiki? We can take that and DocBookify it down the road, > > but having it be a living document that is not hidden in CVS would be > > good. > > yeah i can do that. The big issue right now is dropped frames because > the cpu can't keep up with the requested image grabbing rate in some > situations. I'm hoping to come up with a standard prescription with > regard to desktop resolution, framerate, encoded image size for all > videos being produced. This will imply a minimum cpu requirement to > ensure no frame-drops using what we have available for > gstreamer-plugins right now in rawhide. I need to come up with a > simple test for frame-dropping that aspiring video-makers can run > quickly to see if their hardware is keeping up for the "standard" > video configuration. The ximagesrc gst element should improve over > time so some of the issues here with regard to frame dropping should > evaporate as part of rawhide churn towards fc5. > > I think long term you'll want to standardize on a low resolution > desktop anyways so that you can encode to a reasonably sized image > without loss of detail. 640x480 might be too small.. but 800x600 might > be a reasonable desktop resolution to use when making task videos. That might be as big as you'd want it to get, since the video might be embedded in a web page that has to contain other bracketing information, such as the f.r.c web site, a locally-installed facsimile thereof, or just the user's screen if we have no way of predicting the resolution on the box. Font sizes, etc. may impact on the usability of the screenast, so those may be good things to consider as well. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jul 20 14:39:15 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:39:15 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes Message-ID: <1121870355.3251.237.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Here it is! As a reminder, we're going to try doing *bi-weekly* meetings as opposed to *weekly* meetings. However, hanging out on the IRC channel (which I see some of you do), is great, for us to punt new things See you next week! (where I ought to send a reminder, yes) Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ -------------- next part -------------- --- Log opened Thu Jul 14 13:59:05 2005 15:56 -!- Bob-Laptop [~Bob-Lapto at astound-66-216-233-59.mn.astound.net] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:00 -!- foosball [~foosball at 207.190.71.139] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:01 -!- mattdm [~mattdm at evol.bu.edu] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:02 -!- craigaa_ [~craigaa at nngy-165-174-39.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:03 < craigaa_> greetings all 16:03 < Bob-Laptop> Hey craigaa_ 16:03 < Thijs_H> Hi 16:03 < Bob-Laptop> Hi Thijs_H 16:04 -!- mattfrye [~mattfrye at dargo.trilug.org] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:04 < mattfrye> hello all 16:04 < craigaa_> greeting mattfrye 16:05 < Bob-Laptop> Hello mattfrye 16:05 < mattfrye> agenda? 16:06 < quaid> in email from the other day, iirc 16:06 < mattfrye> ah yes, 1. Our goals 16:06 < mattfrye> 2. A logo competition 16:06 < quaid> *whew* just saved me from flooding the channel :) 16:06 < mattfrye> 3. Swag/goodies 16:07 < mattfrye> 4. How do we reward contributors 16:07 -!- gregdek_mtg [~gregdek at wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:07 < mattfrye> re number 1, perhaps gdk can expand on "explain, promote and recruit for 16:07 < mattfrye> individual Fedora projects." 16:08 * quaid pokes bytee_ in Oaktown 16:08 < gregdek_mtg> Is there a meeting? 16:08 * gregdek_mtg loves meetings! 16:08 -!- w0ndersp00n [~wicky at cable-192-123.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:08 < Thijs_H> Hi w0ndersp00n 16:08 < mattfrye> welcome w0ndersp00n 16:08 < quaid> gregdek: yes, as announced and confirmed on Tuesday last 16:08 < w0ndersp00n> heool 16:08 < w0ndersp00n> i meant hello 16:09 < gregdek_mtg> Okey doke. Who's leading? 16:09 < w0ndersp00n> :$ 16:09 < gregdek_mtg> Is bytee_ present? 16:09 < mattfrye> colin sent the notice (that I saw anyway), but I was just asking if you could expand on "explain, promote and recruit for individual Fedora projects." 16:11 < gregdek_mtg> Looks like no bytee_. Is there an agenda posted? 16:11 < quaid> yes, same email on Tuesday has it and you just missed the posting on channel 16:12 < Bob-Laptop> lol 16:12 < mattfrye> 1. Our goals 16:12 < mattfrye> 2. A logo competition 16:12 < mattfrye> 3. Swag/goodies 16:12 < mattfrye> 4. How do we reward contributors 16:12 < gregdek_mtg> Ha! 16:12 < Thijs_H> Here's the agenda: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-July/msg00096.html 16:12 < mattfrye> Thijs_H++ 16:12 < gregdek_mtg> So since bytee_ isn't here, who wants to take us thru it? 16:12 * gregdek_mtg sits on his hands. 16:12 < mattfrye> that's where my question comes in. 16:13 < mattdm> gregdek_mtg: i vote for _you_, man. :) 16:13 < gregdek_mtg> Sigh. 16:13 < mattfrye> what's our method for "explain" first of all? 16:13 < quaid> let's just roll where mattfrye asked a question, and see if we need facilitation. 16:14 < gregdek_mtg> So. "Explain, promote, recruit." 16:14 < quaid> "How do we 'explain' Fedora?" 16:14 < gregdek_mtg> In the context of individual projects. 16:14 < mattdm> And, *to whom* are we trying to explain? 16:14 < quaid> The World? 16:15 < gregdek_mtg> Primarily to potential users and contributors, IMHO. 16:15 < quaid> or, rather, anyone who is listening. 16:15 < gregdek_mtg> The "promote and recruit" aspect is the key from my perspective. 16:15 * mattdm nods 16:15 < mattfrye> perhaps explain can be taken to mean "name, explain, and demonstrate"? 16:15 < mattfrye> aha 16:16 < quaid> and also means, facilitate explanation 16:16 < quaid> i.e., make it possible for non-marketing people to do explaining through presentations, etc. 16:17 < gregdek_mtg> Y'know what I think we need? One paragraph. 16:17 < mattfrye> quaid++ 16:17 < gregdek_mtg> When someone asks "what is Fedora?" the answer should be one paragraph that everyone knows by heart. 16:17 < quaid> "It is much better than Cats. I install it again and again." 16:17 < gregdek_mtg> Perfect. 16:17 < mattfrye> agreed, something that really grabs you. 16:17 < Thijs_H> Fedora = The distribution, or the name of the project? 16:18 < quaid> contextual 16:18 < quaid> it seems to shift, and everyone is OK with that? 16:18 < mattdm> Again, what audience is this paragraph written for? I'm sorry to be a pain, but I think it's important. 16:19 < gregdek_mtg> "Fedora is a series of projects. The central project is Fedora Core, which is a leading Linux distribution, sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the community." 16:19 < quaid> mattdm: we've discussed audience, and I wonder if we should decide -not- to specify an audience, niche, persona, etc.? 16:19 < gregdek_mtg> General purpose. 16:19 < quaid> or do we have to define a subset of Everyone? how does it help us or hurt us? 16:19 < mattfrye> when someone asks "What is Fedora?" they may or may not know the difference. I think we should talk about the project first, and then the distro as a feature/product of the project. 16:19 < mattdm> A paragraph that appeals to management's "general purpose" isn't going to appeal to, say, *my* general purpose.... 16:19 < quaid> yes, and understand that in common usage, Fedora = FC 16:19 < gregdek_mtg> When you say "Fedora," 90% of the time you'll be talking about Fedora Core, and 90% of the people don't know anything else anyway. 16:20 < quaid> yup 16:20 < mattfrye> gregdek_mtg: yeah, well that can be the problem. 16:20 < foosball> Does the word "Linux" fit in anywhere? 16:20 < gregdek_mtg> But, y'know, this particular issue is one I want to gloss over, because (a) it's not easily solved, and (b) there are lots of other tactical issues that are probably more important. 16:20 < gregdek_mtg> Like: 16:20 < gregdek_mtg> * Who maintains copy about Fedora at Distrowatch? 16:21 < mattfrye> people aren't asking "What is Fedora Core?" Unless they hear that specific phrase. 16:21 < bytee_> hi, sory about that 16:21 < gregdek_mtg> * How do we come up with a name for FC5? 16:21 < bytee_> internet access seems to have become real bad real quickly here 16:21 < bytee_> but Hi all 16:21 < mattfrye> hi bytee_ 16:21 < gregdek_mtg> * How do we incent contributors to less sexy projects like Bug Team? 16:21 < gregdek_mtg> These are the tactical issues that I care about, because the "strategic" questions lead to instant quagmire. My $0.02. 16:22 * mattdm likes that last one, 'cause it's focused. :) 16:22 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: in fact, bug team is something we (marketing) need to get on the ball game. so jack has to work with us 16:22 < gregdek_mtg> (And now our fearless leader is here, so I'll happily stand down.) 16:22 < bytee_> so, did we finish 1) 16:22 * quaid is all right with it 16:22 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: continue dude, continue, i've been walking around random coffee joints because hotel internet seemed to have died last night 16:23 < gregdek_mtg> Nice. 16:23 < bytee_> okay, then lets do 2). who wants to be on a logo making panel ? 16:23 < bytee_> that also gets permission/liases with redhat ? 16:23 < quaid> bytee_: the answers are in the log, perhaps you can do an extract and summary later? that will catch you up with the discussion on 1. 16:23 < mattfrye> what kind of incentives can we support for elements like Bug Team? 16:23 < bytee_> quaid: yes, i've logged the chat, so i will do summary as like what we do for fesco 16:23 < gregdek_mtg> Do we want to stay in the order of the agenda? 16:24 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: yes ? 16:24 < gregdek_mtg> Then it's Logo Time. :) 16:24 < mattfrye> once we know that, we can pseudo-glamorize it with those incentives. the sexy part is in the eye of the beholder. 16:24 < gregdek_mtg> Or was that already discussed and I missed it? 16:24 < mattdm> Nope, logo time it is. I personally liked the periodic-table thing 16:24 < bytee_> does everyone know that alex has created a list of logos? 16:24 < gregdek_mtg> Me too. 16:24 < mattdm> ... given that we can't actually use hats 16:24 < gregdek_mtg> Alex's list is her own list. 16:25 < gregdek_mtg> It doesn't include some of the other stuff. 16:25 < gregdek_mtg> Like Jeremy's cool take on the Periodic table. 16:25 < mattfrye> i like hats and periodic tables. but not puppies 16:25 < Bob-Laptop> When it comes to the Logo, I don't want to wear something that is embarrassing 16:25 < Bob-Laptop> Like the Puppy 16:25 < bytee_> correct. there are a few on the wiki, i think as well. otherwise, who wants to gather all the logos and place them somewhere ? 16:25 < gregdek_mtg> Not it. 16:25 < gregdek_mtg> "Somewhere" = "a page of links on fp.org" 16:25 < bytee_> (job involves searching fedora-marketing-list and placing on the Internet somewhere) - quick action item 16:25 < mattdm> going the periodic table route also allows all sorts of future molecular stuff 16:26 < gregdek_mtg> WHO WANTS THE ACTION ITEM? 16:26 < Bob-Laptop> bytee_: I am willing to do that 16:26 < gregdek_mtg> YES!!! :) 16:26 < bytee_> Bob-Laptop: ok. we have a volunteer! rocking. 16:26 < gregdek_mtg> CAPS LOCK. IT'S, LIKE, THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME. 16:26 < quaid> is the table idea accessible to non-scientists? 16:26 < gregdek_mtg> (sorry.) 16:26 < bytee_> that can be an action item for next week 16:27 < gregdek_mtg> Doesn't need to be accessible if it looks good. 16:27 -!- Sopwith [~sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:27 < mattdm> to non-scientists, it looks like Art. :) 16:27 < gregdek_mtg> It can work visually without people necessarily "getting it", I think. 16:27 < mattfrye> and everyone has taken high school chemistry, but doesn't have to be a scientist 16:27 < gregdek_mtg> OK, so step 1 is getting a page of links. 16:27 < gregdek_mtg> Step 2 is soliciting more ideas. 16:27 -!- bytee_ changed the topic of #fedora-mktg to: people! 16:28 < gregdek_mtg> Step 3 is culling the best ideas and getting them in front of RH creative for review/refinement. 16:28 < bytee_> ok, that was a silly topic change. gah. 16:28 -!- bytee_ changed the topic of #fedora-mktg to: fedora marketing meeting 16:28 < gregdek_mtg> Do folks agree generally with those 3 steps? 16:28 < mattdm> sounds great 16:28 -!- bytee_ changed the topic of #fedora-mktg to: ok 16:28 < mattfrye> yes 16:28 < Bob-Laptop> yes 16:28 < gregdek_mtg> If other folks can get us through step 2, I can take the ball at step 3. Deal? 16:29 < bytee_> Yes, deal, lets move on 16:29 < Bob-Laptop> gregdek_mtg: Deal 16:29 -!- lxmaier [~amaier at h-217.111.50.179.host.de.colt.net] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:29 < gregdek_mtg> 3. Swag/goodies! 16:29 < gregdek_mtg> Alex! 16:29 < bytee_> Who gets swag? What kind of swag? Why? 16:29 * lxmaier read the manual 16:29 < gregdek_mtg> Folks, meet Alex Maier, organizer of FUDCons 2 and 3! Alex, take a bow! 16:30 < lxmaier> and it said -fedora-marketing 16:30 < bytee_> swag is also in the form an @fedora alias or something for email 16:30 * lxmaier bows 16:30 < bytee_> lxmaier: the correction email said #fedora-mktg 16:30 < bytee_> sorry Sopwith, lxmaier 16:30 < gregdek_mtg> OK, so. Who gets swag and why? 16:30 < bytee_> and do we have levels of contributors ? 16:30 < mattfrye> contributors, leaders, advancers of the cause 16:31 < bytee_> what is our budget like gregdek_mtg, and what do we have to give away ? 16:31 < mattdm> It's really important that people making small contributions get recognized. 16:31 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: Our budget is currently fairly miserable -- but fortunately, there's a pretty good supply of shirts and hats in reserve. 16:31 < Bob-Laptop> mattdm: I agree But how?? 16:31 < bytee_> agreed, but how do we make levels of contributors? anyone know other OSS projects that do this ? 16:32 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: I've got about 200 Fedora caps and 500 T-shirts right now. 16:32 < mattdm> I think the "levels" approach tends to discourage this -- Only the Elites get recognition.... 16:32 < mattfrye> agree 16:32 < bytee_> mattdm: so everyone gets a t-shirt if they make a "significant" contribution ? 16:32 < gregdek_mtg> I've also got tons of Red Hat bumper stickers. 16:32 < mattdm> I've got plenty of t-shirts. :) 16:32 < gregdek_mtg> So here are MY issues for getting schwag out the door: 16:32 < bytee_> sending out a bumper sticker for every small contribution also makes it an expensive exercise (wrt postage) 16:33 < gregdek_mtg> 1. Time. 16:33 < mattfrye> "significant" = facilitate other advancements? 16:33 < gregdek_mtg> 2. Time. 16:33 < gregdek_mtg> 3. Time. 16:33 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: send them my way, give me a posting budget, and i'll sort it out. 16:33 < Thijs_H> But what's the definition of a contributor? Someone who contributes directly to the Fedora Project, or also the founder of e.g. fedoraforum.org 16:33 < quaid> electronic widgets that score points on a free stuff site? 16:33 < bytee_> omg, i just volunteered to do something! gah 16:33 < lxmaier> gregdek_mtg: so what about having some one in the mktg project OWN he recognition process 16:33 < Sopwith> I seem to remember putting "schwag process" on byte's todo list :) 16:33 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: I worry that time might be an issue for you too, dude. Honestly. 16:33 -!- chowda [~chowda at mail.lulu.com] has joined #fedora-mktg 16:33 < lxmaier> and use UPS or fedex to print online shipping stickers 16:34 < lxmaier> and ship the stuff en masse once a week 16:34 -!- chowda is now known as jhogan 16:34 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: i have minions, the kind we can talk about over a beer 16:34 < bytee_> ;-) 16:34 < bytee_> hi jhogan 16:34 < quaid> what about using a fulfilment site? 16:34 < jhogan> hola 16:34 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: Sold! 16:34 < mattfrye> bytee_: I volunteer to help. 16:34 < mattfrye> hogan: howdy 16:34 < mattdm> I think swag is one of the *least* useful means of recogition. I think we're better off selling it or giving it away cheap simply for promotion. 16:34 < jhogan> hey matt 16:34 < gregdek_mtg> Is that Joe Hogan, famous ne'er-do-well surfer grandson of golfer Ben Hogan? 16:34 < bytee_> aha, so we have mattfrye stepping up to. postage from within the states might be cheaper ? 16:34 < quaid> manually sending stuff don't scale well. 16:34 < gregdek_mtg> mattdm: +1 16:35 < gregdek_mtg> Some easy things that will kick ass: 16:35 < jhogan> I wish I was cool enough to be a ne'er do well surfer 16:35 < Sopwith> fulfillment is just a hard process, period 16:35 < gregdek_mtg> * Mention in ransom notes for the OS. 16:35 < bytee_> quaid: that is quite true. 16:35 < gregdek_mtg> * Easter eggs in the OS. 16:35 < mattfrye> postage from within the states would be and i have more time now. heh 16:35 < jhogan> sopwith: what kind of fulfillment you talking? swag or CDs? 16:35 < mattdm> gregdek_mtg: yeah. 16:35 < Sopwith> jhogan: either/or 16:36 < Sopwith> in general 16:36 < bytee_> ok, so we have mattfrye as possible postage man too. 16:36 < bytee_> mattdm: if swag isn't as good (though really, people do like it), what other means of pleasing contributors do we have ? 16:36 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: Recognition. 16:36 < gregdek_mtg> Ego. 16:36 < quaid> aye 16:36 < bytee_> @fedoraproject.org aliases? we can arrange that for anyone too 16:36 < quaid> NiL Name in Lights 16:36 < mattfrye> gregdek_mtg: how about recognition in RH magazine? 16:36 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: release notes are a good idea 16:36 < gregdek_mtg> That's a good one. 16:37 < mattdm> All of those things are great. 16:37 < gregdek_mtg> Yes, yes, yes! 16:37 < jhogan> you guys can do CDs/DVDs here: http://www.lulu.com/static/cd_dvd.php or through someone like www.mixonic.com 16:37 < mattdm> Also, simply really making sure that people who try to contribute are listened to. 16:37 < craigaa_> Generally, I think swag should used primarily for shows, conferences etc. else get some fulfiment company to sell them online, make a little profit for fututr marketing use. 16:37 < mattfrye> improve circulation while creating goodwill 16:37 < quaid> we can likely get a special recognition section in RHMag 16:37 < mattfrye> schaweet 16:37 < gregdek_mtg> We're already selling most stuff thru brandfuel. 16:37 < quaid> short bios for two or three ppl per issue 16:37 < gregdek_mtg> Hell yeah. 16:38 < gregdek_mtg> Tammy's always looking for good content, and that would be great, 16:38 < gregdek_mtg> s/,/./ 16:38 < quaid> yep 16:38 < bytee_> quaid: ok, do we have a volunteer for a regular piece like that? 16:38 < bytee_> go karsten! 16:38 < quaid> *thbppt* 16:38 < gregdek_mtg> "He who smelt it dealt it." Sucker. :) 16:38 < quaid> I'll interview people and write it up for deadline, but 16:38 < jhogan> cryou could look at cafepress for some one off swag and still do larger runs through like brand fuel 16:38 < mattfrye> i write for the mag, and pending talk with tammy, it would be easy. would need gdk's backing tho. 16:38 < quaid> we need a process to identify those getting recognition and decide what they get 16:39 < mattfrye> quaid: you go 16:39 < bytee_> mattfrye: i'll back you too. why not you start the discussion, with quaid, cc'ing gdk/me (discussion w/tfox that is) 16:39 < gregdek_mtg> quaid: That's item #1, you're right. 16:39 < quaid> mattfrye: oh, no, man, you who have sudden time, please go for it 16:39 < quaid> mattfrye: rather, wanna team up? 16:39 < bytee_> the process, is really something i wanted to talk about 16:39 < gregdek_mtg> 1. Process for identifying people who deserve recognition. 16:39 < quaid> yep 16:39 < mattfrye> haha, yeah, let's collab 16:39 < quaid> *boggle* what an idea :) 16:39 < gregdek_mtg> 2. Mechanisms for providing recognition: 16:39 < gregdek_mtg> a. Personal letter; 16:40 < gregdek_mtg> b. Mention in RH mag; 16:40 < gregdek_mtg> c. Mention in ransom notes; 16:40 < quaid> 10-pack of Fedora temporary tattoos 16:40 < Thijs_H> d. @fedoraproject.org alias ? 16:40 < gregdek_mtg> e. easter eggs, like... about:my_name_here in Firefox goes to their homepage :) 16:40 * Bob-Laptop has enough non-temp tattoos 16:41 < quaid> Bob-Laptop: no room left? 16:41 < mattfrye> my_name_here in Firefox: awesome 16:41 < gregdek_mtg> Don't know if it's easily doable, but damn would that be cool. 16:41 < Bob-Laptop> quaid: getting close 16:41 < mattdm> How about mention in *RHEL* release notes for Fedora contributions which end up getting used there? (I think that'd do wonders for goodwill...) 16:41 < gregdek_mtg> Bob-Laptop: forehead. 16:41 < quaid> oooh 16:41 < bytee_> hmm, poor caillon is going to be very unhappy with about:foo 16:41 < gregdek_mtg> So we'll ask him, and it it's a no, it's a no. 16:41 < gregdek_mtg> But we should ask. 16:42 < mattdm> I don't think the firefox trademark rules would allow that. 16:42 < bytee_> agreed. it's going to be in the meeting minutes :) 16:42 < gregdek_mtg> SOOoooooo... We've had a lot of action items fall out. Who's taking them? 16:42 < bytee_> mattdm: thats ok, they like us ;-) 16:42 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: i am 16:42 < bytee_> i have logs, and mtg minutes 16:42 < mattfrye> firefox trademark rules - make it a an extension 16:42 * gregdek_mtg notes that RH/Fedora has a special deal in place with Firefox that we may be able to leverage... 16:42 < mattdm> is that special deal documented, or is it a back-room thing? 16:43 < mattfrye> just an extension = removeable 16:43 < mattdm> Extensions violate the firefox rules. 16:43 < gregdek_mtg> mattdm: I don't actually know. To be honest, I'm not even sure it really exists. 16:43 < quaid> mattfrye: as long as we can ship with the extension installed by default ... 16:43 * quaid is sure we could get about:foo for Epiphany ... j/k 16:43 < mattfrye> quaid: aha 16:43 < bytee_> ok, so in terms of 3), we sort of have a disribution mechanicm (mattfrye), and we also want goodies in terms of recognition. that being the key. do we need further discussion, or can we all go think about swag more. like a cool pin, depends on a cool logo. do we want a fedora shop, etc... ? 16:44 < bytee_> oh, wait, that completed 4) too :) 16:44 < lxmaier> any more point on the agenda? 16:44 < Thijs_H> - who is a contributor? 16:44 < gregdek_mtg> mattfrye: If you're willing to step up, you can come over to Centennial at your leisure and pick up a truck full of shirts and hats. 16:44 * lxmaier would like to add something 16:45 < bytee_> lxmaier: fudcon 3? ;-) 16:45 < gregdek_mtg> Thijs_H: That's a process question to be figured out. 16:45 < bytee_> Thijs_H: we have to work on a process. homework for next week 16:45 < lxmaier> bytee_: how'd you guess? 16:45 < mattfrye> gregdek_mtg: yes, no probl. I will be there tonight anyway. 16:45 < Thijs_H> ok :) 16:45 < gregdek_mtg> Psychic! OoooooO! 16:45 < jhogan> I volunteer to help Matt on figuring out CD/DVDs and swag distribution 16:45 < jhogan> If he needs it 16:45 < gregdek_mtg> jhogan: What're you doing tonite? 16:45 < mattfrye> jhogan: yes, thanks. I value your experience 16:45 < bytee_> personally, i like the idea of fudcon 3, alex did a great job at fudcon 2 from what i hear (though i sadly missed), and we should be full steam ahead behind her for it. agreed? 16:45 < bytee_> rocking jhogan 16:45 < mattfrye> trilug 16:46 < bytee_> is jhogan also in rdu ? 16:46 < jhogan> gregdek_mtg: nothing 16:46 < jhogan> yeah 16:46 < jhogan> <-- rdu 16:46 < mattfrye> schaweet 16:46 < gregdek_mtg> jhogan: Surely you mean, "coming to TriLUG!" 16:46 < mattdm> hey, Greg promised me we'd switch to sane fudcon numbering. :) 16:46 < jhogan> is it at HQ? 16:46 < gregdek_mtg> Yep. 16:46 < jhogan> word 16:46 < gregdek_mtg> hogan: Yep. 16:46 < jhogan> what time 16:46 < gregdek_mtg> 7pm. 16:46 < jhogan> I'll be there 16:46 < lxmaier> bytee_, gregdek_mtg: i have commitments form a bunch of people 16:46 < mattfrye> jhogan: rock 16:47 < lxmaier> so we can be sure to fill at least one day at fudcon 3 / lwe uk 16:47 < gregdek_mtg> NAMING SCHEME FOR FUDCON. Does anyone object to changing to FUDCon City Year? 16:47 < lxmaier> not me 16:47 < gregdek_mtg> So FUDCon 3 would become FUDCon London 2005? 16:47 < lxmaier> so be it! 16:47 < bytee_> lxmaier: rocking. also, consider placing it in the weekend, not during lwe itself (i.e. after lwe) 16:47 * mattdm rejoices 16:47 * quaid joins 16:47 < lxmaier> bytee_: bad idea 16:47 < bytee_> because more americans might consider a weekend getaway 16:48 < bytee_> lxmaier: any reason why ? 16:48 < lxmaier> we piggyback it on the event for a reason 16:48 < lxmaier> to draw folks to attend 16:48 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: Budget. :) 16:48 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: aha. 16:48 < lxmaier> and to save money on accommodation 16:48 < bytee_> ok, got it. 16:48 * mattfrye likes FUDCon City Year 16:48 < bytee_> so seth can't go already 16:48 < gregdek_mtg> And also, to draw attention *away* from LW, which tends to be very suit-y. 16:48 < lxmaier> LWE UK agreed to support us with in-kind donations 16:48 < lxmaier> DURING LWE 16:49 < lxmaier> and they will make it part of their conference 16:49 < lxmaier> ergo: they will advertise for us for free 16:49 < gregdek_mtg> Really? 16:49 < gregdek_mtg> Awesome! 16:49 < lxmaier> really 16:49 < bytee_> this is very positive news! congratulations on that lxmaier 16:49 * lxmaier bows once again :) 16:49 < gregdek_mtg> Then I guess it's time to put the FUDCon London 2005 page up on fp.org! 16:49 < lxmaier> i am pressuring LWE UK to give us room and PA system for free 16:49 < lxmaier> for one day 16:50 < lxmaier> actually, two rooms 16:50 < Sopwith> Hey, if you're looking for people to go to FUDCon London 2005... 16:50 < bytee_> yes, can we plan this for next week ? 16:50 < quaid> a con within a con, like a good Mamet movie 16:50 * gregdek_mtg is deliberately taking no action items. :) 16:50 < lxmaier> and they said if we get people with a name in the community to come and talk, they will promote us 16:50 -!- Irssi: Pasting 10 lines to #fedora-mktg. Press Ctrl-K if you wish to do this or Ctrl-C to cancel. 16:50 * lxmaier will gladly coordinate 16:51 < gregdek_mtg> Like Mark Cox? 16:51 < gregdek_mtg> Or Stephen Tweedie? 16:51 * bytee_ wishes he can go to fudcon london 16:51 < lxmaier> let us take this on the list and discuss it there 16:51 < gregdek_mtg> Okey doke. 16:51 < bytee_> lxmaier: agreed. agk agreed to go too 16:51 < lxmaier> gregdek_mtg: yeah, like mjc 16:51 < lxmaier> i am sure he'll come 16:51 < lxmaier> and agk volunteered 16:51 < lxmaier> as did rkirby 16:51 < jhogan> And the other Cox, I forget his name. ;-) 16:51 < bytee_> getting alan there would be very, very cool 16:51 < bytee_> it will be a crowd puller 16:52 < lxmaier> the other cox is hard to get but if we all plead nicely... 16:52 < bytee_> i'll punt this at OLS next week 16:52 < gregdek_mtg> That would be "A. Cox". As in, "America will never see my face again Cox." 16:52 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: its ok, it'll be in London :) 16:52 < bytee_> i'll ask him personally 16:52 < gregdek_mtg> Cool. :) 16:52 < bytee_> what beer does he like? ;-) 16:52 < gregdek_mtg> Dunno, but he loves his rugby. 16:52 < bytee_> this pending he does go to OLS, which i think he is 16:53 < bytee_> otherwise, shooting an email will be fine 16:53 < jhogan> bytee_: invite him in Welsh 16:53 < jhogan> that'll get his attention 16:53 < bytee_> lets get Telsa to say something about how she doesn't break fedora anymore too ;-) 16:53 < lxmaier> okay, so are we in agreement on having the FUDCon London 2005? 16:53 < bytee_> jhogan: heh, rock 16:53 < bytee_> lxmaier: yes. 16:53 < lxmaier> good 16:53 < gregdek_mtg> Get Alan something with "Swansea Rugby" on it and he's in. ;-) 16:53 < bytee_> so, what else for this week, or shall we go on till the next? i think we had a pretty good first meeting 16:53 < quaid> lxmaier has the FUDCon addiction! 16:54 < bytee_> (even though i spent a lot of time running around 3 coffee places before finding working wifi in a wifi city!) 16:54 < quaid> bytee_: if you are Oaktown, don't know if that qualifies as a wifi city ... 16:54 < bytee_> quaid: hey, its good fedora promotion. and lots of people loveeeeeeeee it 16:54 < quaid> hey, not complaining! 16:54 < quaid> I say, feed the addicts 16:54 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: I think this is good. Will action items w/owners be kept on the wiki? 16:54 < bytee_> quaid: oakland, facing the bay ? 16:54 < bytee_> gregdek_mtg: yes, tabular style, ala fesco's version 16:54 < lxmaier> bytee_: do i have wiki access? 16:55 < gregdek_mtg> bytee_: Aces. 16:55 < quaid> bytee_: Yes, Jack London and all that 16:55 < lxmaier> i suspect i don't 16:55 < bytee_> lxmaier: do you? ;-) 16:55 < bytee_> quaid: thats exactly where i am. jack london inn 16:55 < quaid> lxmaier: do you have an account? 16:55 < gregdek_mtg> lxmaier: Just make an account and ask for group access. 16:55 < quaid> AlexMaier? 16:55 < bytee_> lxmaier: create an account, and we'll give you access 16:55 < lxmaier> quaid: yes? 16:55 < lxmaier> bytee_: okay 16:55 < quaid> lxmaier: asking if that is your fp.org wiki acc't name :) 16:55 < bytee_> EditGroup access can be granted to all sane folk here. so if anyone needs it, ask someone within the edit group 16:56 < lxmaier> bytee_: we are talking about wiki on fedora.redhat.com, correct? 16:56 < Bob-Laptop> K 16:56 < quaid> which is the page fp.org/wiki/EditGroup btw 16:56 < quaid> lxmaier: fedoraproject.org 16:56 < bytee_> lxmaier: fedoraproject.org/wiki 16:56 < quaid> no wiki on f.r.c. 16:56 < lxmaier> quaid: don't think so 16:56 < bytee_> f.r.c is an infrastructure issue that Sopwith and us should talk about, but lets save that for later ;-) 16:57 * quaid is training more documenters on how to update f.r.c 16:57 < quaid> glad to do it for anyone in f-marketing, too, very easily done 16:57 < bytee_> for all of you that dont know Sopwith, he's our cool man that does various and all cool things with fedora/rh infrastructure 16:57 < bytee_> ok, anymore pressing topics? 16:58 < gregdek_mtg> We need to turn f.r.c into a paragraph and a pointer. :) 16:58 < quaid> lxmaier: go to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki, set up a new account FirstnameLastname, then let us know here and one of us (who is on the page fp.org/wiki/EditGroup) will add your name to EditGroup, allowing you to edit. 16:58 < quaid> gregdek_mtg: /docs babe 16:58 < bytee_> if not, then 5... 16:58 < lxmaier> quaid: okay, will do 16:58 < bytee_> 4.... 16:58 < bytee_> 3... 16:58 < bytee_> 2.. 16:58 < quaid> 0 lag 16:58 < bytee_> 1. 16:58 < gregdek_mtg> WAIT!!!!!! 16:58 < lxmaier> great timing 16:58 < gregdek_mtg> No, just kidding. :) 16:58 < quaid> heh 16:59 < bytee_> meeting over! 16:59 < mattdm> yay! we win! 16:59 < quaid> well done, mates! 16:59 < bytee_> lxmaier: time for dinner :) 16:59 < gregdek_mtg> ttfn 16:59 < bytee_> yes, good first meeting, we shall endeavour for more soon! 16:59 < bytee_> thank you all. From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jul 20 15:04:03 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:04:03 -0400 Subject: Meeting notes: Meeting 1 (Jul 14 2005) Message-ID: <1121871844.3251.261.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Let's hope all this made sense... --colin Present: Bob-Laptop foosball Matthew Miller Craig Anderson Thijs_H Matt Frye Karsten Wade Gregdk w0ndersp00n Alex Maier Elliot 'sopwith' Lee Jeremy Hogan * how do we explain fedora? I.e. facilitating explanation. Greg suggests: "Fedora is a series of projects. The central project is Fedora Core, which is a leading Linux distribution, sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the community." * Who maintains copy about Fedora at Distrowatch? * How do we come up with a (release) name for Fedora Core 5 * How do we incent contributors to less sexy projects like Bug Team? * Logos - hats, periodic tables, puppy. Bob-Laptop has decided to create a page for Fedora logos (this is step 1). Step 2 - solicit more ideas Step 3 - Cull the best ideas, and get RH creative review/refinement Greg will take us thru Step 3, community marketers to push till Step 2 * Swag/goodies - we want to make sure people making small contributions get recognised. Budget is miserable, but there's a supply of caps (~200), t-shirts (~500) and RH Bumper Stickers (~tonne :P) at RDU. We don't want levels of contributors, as it discourages folk. All contributors are equal. * Swag distribution is a problem. Matt Frye to do this (failing which Colin will do it). Jeremy Hogan talks about a fulfillment site. Both Hogan and MattF to work together * How else can we allow contributors to be rewarded? Mention in release notes, easter eggs in the OS, @fedoraproject.org aliases (action: colin/seth), recognition in RH Magazine (Karsten Wade and Matt Frye are going to try and get 2-3 interviews of Fedora contributors in each issue of RHM - ACTION: write mail to Tammy Fox, cc'ing greg and colin), sending a personal letter of thanks, about:my_name_here in Firefox (ask Chris Aillon about this), possibility of mention in the *RHEL Release Notes* * FUDCon 3 in London - hats off to Alex Maier. Do we want a new naming scheme? Like FUDCon (i.e. FUDCon London 2005). Will coincide with LWE in London (no weekends, save on budget). LWE UK will support FUDCon 3 with in-kind donations (go Alex!); Alex to work on FUDCon London 2005 page on the wiki. We need to get speakers next. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From tp at alternativ.net Wed Jul 20 16:23:40 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:23:40 +0200 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Dienstag, den 19.07.2005, 00:08 -0400 schrieb Christopher Aillon: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems > > > > But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there > is a problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if > its not helping our users? I think what lacks is a solution. It is ok for Fedora to not distribute MP3 stuff. What i would like to see is to have an installer for enabling external yum repositories. So like from up2date one could choose: "add external sources". The list could be updated via web - and then there would be no problem, because only the enabling software is distributed. I do not understand why this opportunity is not provided. I guess this could be very easy. I think in marketing the answer not always should be RTFM but do soemthing about things that are obviously problematic. So some discussion from marketing to development. -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci at jabber.org From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 16:46:02 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:46:02 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/05, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > So like from up2date one could choose: "add > external sources". The list could be updated via web - and then there > would be no problem, because only the enabling software is distributed. I think you are wrong about where the grey line is. My personal understanding is that nothing distributed by default can pull in outside package sources to choose from or it has the potential to run afoul of the definition of "contributory infringement". You can't have up2date or any tool in the distro point to a list of external repos to choose from. Just like fedora.redhat.com can not link directly to a site like fedoratracker. What would work would be a mimetype definition that 3rd party repos could use in a "Setup repository" link to install reponame-release package that contained the yum repo definitions and other items just like fedora-release package does and livna-release package does. But people would still have to google to find those repositories. Fedora can not link to a site explicitly meant to connect users to items Fedora itself can not legally distribute without risking "contributory infringement" claims if those outside repos trafficking in items not legally distributable under US law. You can provide a mechansim to easily point and click install the setup files needed to make an additional repository active once a user finds them.. but you can not point those users directly to additional repos. They must find them by other means. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jul 20 20:48:34 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:48:34 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Re: fedora guide] Message-ID: <1121892515.20245.49.camel@erato.phig.org> In case you are interested in this discussion but aren't on f-docs-l. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Karsten Wade Reply-To: kwade at redhat.com, For participants of the Documentation Project To: For participants of the Documentation Project Subject: Re: fedora guide Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:11:37 -0700 On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 15:12 -0400, Colin Charles wrote: > Ok, dare I ask a) why another fedora site, I don't think we can or should bring all things Fedora under the project umbrella. We rely upon the value these sites bring. One value is that they have been there, in some cases all along, where we have foundered. Not only would it be not-fair to assimilate them, they have name recognition that we didn't earn. Another value is in being able to more freely discuss some topics. For example, in Fedora Documentation, we focus only on software you can get in Core or Extras. However, those aren't the only solutions out there. These sites are free to recommend any software and method that solves the problem. We'd have to expand our scope by a huge amount, and dilute the value of our Fedora-only documentation, to bring these sites under the Fedora Documentation umbrella. We have enough work as-is with the current scope, thankyouverymuch. :) Another example is the typical one, all of the non-free/potentially patent-infringing discussions. > c) can we work together as there are others > trying to do this with the existing resources (read archives of f-m-l) This is the vision I have and have been trying to build: * Third-party (3-p) Fedora sites are part of the f-marketing-l and f- docs-l, to help coordinate and keep informed on what is going on with similar efforts within Fedora. * 3-p sites coordinate together through a mechanism of their choice, some of which are in the works. These mechanisms are made freely available to Fedora Project members who want to monitor or contribute. * We run parallel collaboration, so the 3-p sites fill in the gaps we cannot, in a manner we will not. - Karsten -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list at redhat.com To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Jul 21 05:36:20 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:36:20 +0300 Subject: Meeting notes: Meeting 1 (Jul 14 2005) In-Reply-To: <1121871844.3251.261.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1121871844.3251.261.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42DF3454.4040307@nicubunu.ro> Colin Charles wrote: > > * Logos - hats, periodic tables, puppy. Bob-Laptop has decided to create > a page for Fedora logos (this is step 1). I think that page was already created a couple of weeks ago: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 10:52:03 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 03:52:03 -0700 Subject: Meeting notes: Meeting 1 (Jul 14 2005) In-Reply-To: <42DF3454.4040307@nicubunu.ro> References: <1121871844.3251.261.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DF3454.4040307@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05072103521d81a722@mail.gmail.com> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas Where are Jeremy' Hogan's Periodic Table designs? From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Jul 21 11:38:19 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:38:19 +0300 Subject: Meeting notes: Meeting 1 (Jul 14 2005) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05072103521d81a722@mail.gmail.com> References: <1121871844.3251.261.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DF3454.4040307@nicubunu.ro> <7f1eacdd05072103521d81a722@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42DF892B.8090704@nicubunu.ro> Matt Frye wrote: >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/LogoIdeas > > > Where are Jeremy' Hogan's Periodic Table designs? This is a Wiki, anybody can add content to it, fell free to add those (and any other) designs yourself. If you don't have the URL, I think Jeremy mentioned them here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-July/msg00105.html -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 12:36:20 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 05:36:20 -0700 Subject: Meeting notes: Meeting 1 (Jul 14 2005) In-Reply-To: <42DF892B.8090704@nicubunu.ro> References: <1121871844.3251.261.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42DF3454.4040307@nicubunu.ro> <7f1eacdd05072103521d81a722@mail.gmail.com> <42DF892B.8090704@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05072105361f00f9f0@mail.gmail.com> > > Where are Jeremy' Hogan's Periodic Table designs? > > This is a Wiki, anybody can add content to it, fell free to add those > (and any other) designs yourself. Done. From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 21 20:28:25 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:28:25 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] Message-ID: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> I'm punting this over to the marketing side. The consensus on #fedora- docs is this: a) Fedora has not done a very good job of loudly advertising why we don't distribute certain codecs, although we do spend a lot of time addressing the topic in other ways. b) The complaint about multimedia is in every poorly researched review. c) This is the latest stick to beat Fedora with. d) An official rebuttal/comment on the situation might help. Any ideas on this? I appreciate Greg's approach of pushing the situation back on other people. Our only failing is probably in not being loud and present enough with our comments/rebuttals. Maybe the desktop background by default should be an explanation of "why no MP3 support". I don't mind including something useful in the release notes, and in fact had intended to with an update. This bug report approaches making a few good points, buried as it is in so much bile. I'll likely ignore updating this bug except to CLOSE it when the time comes. I've used up the ounce of civility I brewed for this situation on this wannabe-customer. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: bugzilla at redhat.com To: kwade at redhat.com Subject: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:33:48 -0400 Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. Summary: mpeg situation not explained in documentation https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=163675 ------- Additional Comments From redhat at chaos.demon.nl 2005-07-21 14:33 EST ------- What a cop out. First of all: just because your customers aren't paying you doesn't mean you can treat them however you like. Secondly: it would have been no trouble at all to include one tiny paragraph in the release notes explaining all this. You make it sound like it would have cost a team of writers months to do this. Thirdly: this is not some obscure little "non-free, closed-source, illegal and patent-infringing" piece of software. Missing MPEg audio playback functionality is a sizable drawback for many people. Even Windows plays back MP3 files by default. So do almost all other Linux distributions. It is something people rightly expect, and at the very least it should be explained to them (by the creators of the product, not by having them perform Google queries) that it is missing, and why. Lastly: don't blame me for this for not filing a bug about it during the test process. As if nobody could have figured this out otherwise. And as if the situation hasn't been the same for many previous versions. What un unworthy response... Pity... -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Jul 22 00:46:38 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:46:38 +0800 (WST) Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3370.192.168.0.104.1121993198.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Is this suggestions to be done straight away as in announcing it or are we planning on making it big enough to hit people over the head with in FC5? The only thing I can suggest is adding it to the front page of Firefox when you start it up after the install. It can say it there. Or maybe when you find links to download the .iso's. Put a what fedora does and doesn't do section. What type of os it is regarding the fact that its imo semi-bleeding edge. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > I'm punting this over to the marketing side. The consensus on #fedora- > docs is this: > > a) Fedora has not done a very good job of loudly advertising why we > don't distribute certain codecs, although we do spend a lot of time > addressing the topic in other ways. > > b) The complaint about multimedia is in every poorly researched review. > > c) This is the latest stick to beat Fedora with. > > d) An official rebuttal/comment on the situation might help. > > Any ideas on this? > > I appreciate Greg's approach of pushing the situation back on other > people. Our only failing is probably in not being loud and present > enough with our comments/rebuttals. Maybe the desktop background by > default should be an explanation of "why no MP3 support". > > I don't mind including something useful in the release notes, and in > fact had intended to with an update. This bug report approaches making > a few good points, buried as it is in so much bile. > > I'll likely ignore updating this bug except to CLOSE it when the time > comes. I've used up the ounce of civility I brewed for this situation > on this wannabe-customer. > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: bugzilla at redhat.com > To: kwade at redhat.com > Subject: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:33:48 -0400 > Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional > comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. > > Summary: mpeg situation not explained in documentation > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=163675 > > > > > > ------- Additional Comments From redhat at chaos.demon.nl 2005-07-21 14:33 > EST ------- > What a cop out. > > First of all: just because your customers aren't paying you doesn't mean > you can > treat them however you like. > > Secondly: it would have been no trouble at all to include one tiny > paragraph in > the release notes explaining all this. You make it sound like it would > have cost > a team of writers months to do this. > > Thirdly: this is not some obscure little "non-free, closed-source, illegal > and > patent-infringing" piece of software. Missing MPEg audio playback > functionality > is a sizable drawback for many people. Even Windows plays back MP3 files > by > default. So do almost all other Linux distributions. It is something > people > rightly expect, and at the very least it should be explained to them (by > the > creators of the product, not by having them perform Google queries) that > it is > missing, and why. > > Lastly: don't blame me for this for not filing a bug about it during the > test > process. As if nobody could have figured this out otherwise. And as if the > situation hasn't been the same for many previous versions. > > What un unworthy response... Pity... > > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 22 04:40:47 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:40:47 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <3370.192.168.0.104.1121993198.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <3370.192.168.0.104.1121993198.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1122007247.20245.114.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 08:46 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Is this suggestions to be done straight away as in announcing it or are we > planning on making it big enough to hit people over the head with in FC5? Both? > The only thing I can suggest is adding it to the front page of Firefox > when you start it up after the install. It can say it there. Or maybe > when you find links to download the .iso's. Put a what fedora does and > doesn't do section. What type of os it is regarding the fact that its imo > semi-bleeding edge. Then that would be a "Note" that appears at the top of the release notes. I agree with the concept of what you suggest, it certainly makes it fairly obvious. However, I don't know about the idea of making the first, biggest, and most regular information that readers see be a message about MP3 patents. We reorganized the release notes to be more friendly for a default Firefox page. Not all the changes are in FC4, but the basic idea was to add a "what's new" section and make the table of contents more visible to show what information is in the release notes. The "what's new" contains links to useful information, and would be a natural place to put such a note. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Jul 22 06:19:17 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:19:17 +0300 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42E08FE5.7090504@nicubunu.ro> Karsten Wade wrote: > I'm punting this over to the marketing side. The consensus on #fedora- > docs is this: > > a) Fedora has not done a very good job of loudly advertising why we > don't distribute certain codecs, although we do spend a lot of time > addressing the topic in other ways. > > b) The complaint about multimedia is in every poorly researched review. > > c) This is the latest stick to beat Fedora with. > > d) An official rebuttal/comment on the situation might help. > > Any ideas on this? I believe the best thing to do is what the original poster suggested in Bugzilla: "It would also be good (although I realise that this is the wrong place for that) if stubs were installed for the missing components which explain the situation. This has been done for xmms, but I think that's the only place. The other affected programs just display very generic and uninformative error messages, or they are just mysteriously missing." I expect if such a stub is made as a gstreamer plugin, the majority of multimedia apps in Fedora will be covered. If the situation is clarified at the application level then I find enough for release notes to mention it in a secondary, non-prominent place. BTW, as this is a marketing list, when we will have and advertise some mind-blowing multimedia applications based on free codecs to fill this void? -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Jul 22 06:44:51 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:44:51 +0800 (WST) Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in ... Message-ID: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I first used linux which was RH9 I think. What I did was the web browser which was Navigator if I'm not wrong. I then search through all the links to try and find out what I could and couldn't do and how I was supposed to do things. I suppose the 'best' example would have to be the http://ubuntuguide.org I think thats the link. It basically explains everything including the propietary stuff. The equivalent I've used at times has been fedorafaq which was great but didn't imo go far enough. I suppose a happy medium between the two as a link possibly. Or maybe the standard home should have a help section then from there to a docs section explaning. I know a lot of people who still don't know about SElinux because they don't know where to look. Granted fedoraforum for example has helped with that however solving it in the first place by creating that link from the front webpage. Another great doc section I suppose could be the gentoo docs which although its a 'hard' way of going for a newbie who has very little idea of compiling it steps you through everything which really was helpful for me for example when I first tried it. Stupid me forgot to enable the swap space :( Should we look at all examples of put all examples down and start creating a 'template' of how to lay it out or has that already been done. If so can someone point me in the right direction please. Just putting suggestions forward and I suppose I'm trying to 'picture' how it would look. Possibly start on a table of contents or has that been progressed on. > On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 08:46 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> Is this suggestions to be done straight away as in announcing it or are >> we >> planning on making it big enough to hit people over the head with in >> FC5? > - Ignored: > Both? > >> The only thing I can suggest is adding it to the front page of Firefox >> when you start it up after the install. It can say it there. Or maybe >> when you find links to download the .iso's. Put a what fedora does and >> doesn't do section. What type of os it is regarding the fact that its >> imo >> semi-bleeding edge. > > Then that would be a "Note" that appears at the top of the release notes. I agree with the concept of what you suggest, it certainly makes > it fairly obvious. However, I don't know about the idea of making the > first, biggest, and most regular information that readers see be a message about MP3 patents. > > We reorganized the release notes to be more friendly for a default Firefox page. Not all the changes are in FC4, but the basic idea was to > add a "what's new" section and make the table of contents more visible > to show what information is in the release notes. The "what's new" contains links to useful information, and would be a natural place to > put such a note. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 22 09:03:51 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:03:51 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in ... In-Reply-To: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 14:44 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I suppose the 'best' example would have to be the http://ubuntuguide.org I > think thats the link. It basically explains everything including the > propietary stuff. The equivalent I've used at times has been fedorafaq > which was great but didn't imo go far enough. ubuntuguide.org goes down the same road that fedorafaq.org and all others do, a road we cannot walk. However, in the last few months, we have received permission to link to sites that themselves may link to any amount of unknown information. However, we _cannot_ tell people how to circumnavigate, install, or otherwise use this software. We cannot link to a site that tells how to do that. If we link to a site, such as google.com, and it is possible to find such information off that site _and_ it is a link away, then it is out of our hands. AIUI. > I suppose a happy medium between the two as a link possibly. Or maybe the > standard home should have a help section then from there to a docs section > explaning. We can just add a section to the release notes that mirrors the information on the Wiki. > Should we look at all examples of put all examples down and start creating > a 'template' of how to lay it out or has that already been done. If > so can someone point me in the right direction please. Sorry, I don't understand what 'it' is that we would lay out. > Just putting suggestions forward and I suppose I'm trying to 'picture' > how it would look. Possibly start on a table of contents or has that been > progressed on. Sorry, a ToC for what exactly? thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 22 09:12:00 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:12:00 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <1122007247.20245.114.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <3370.192.168.0.104.1121993198.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122007247.20245.114.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122023520.20245.128.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 21:40 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > We reorganized the release notes to be more friendly for a default > Firefox page. Not all the changes are in FC4, but the basic idea was to > add a "what's new" section and make the table of contents more visible > to show what information is in the release notes. The "what's new" > contains links to useful information, and would be a natural place to > put such a note. I probably would have done this straight away, it was hard to feel motivated with such a bug report in front of me. ;-) http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/index.html#sn-why-no-mp3 (link should be live within the hour) If anyone out there who is not @redhat.com has an opinion to share on this bug report, I wouldn't mind if the user was better made to understand the meaning of community. In all its lovely senses. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 13:08:45 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:08:45 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa79105072206086da4e4c3@mail.gmail.com> On 7/21/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > a) Fedora has not done a very good job of loudly advertising why we > don't distribute certain codecs, although we do spend a lot of time > addressing the topic in other ways. Scapegoat sez, "Patent royalties are the pressure sensitive landmines of software development. Field mice don't have to worry about it. But a herd of sheep do." Getting the message out about the dangers of patent royalties succinctly in a way that encourages people to get informed about the larger issues where foss and patents intersect is a pretty tough nut. Any explanation inevitably has to touch on the project's commitment to make sure 3rd parties can use and re-distribute all the provided software without getting additional permission from individual patent holders. I don't know how you say that in a way that make a compelling read... I fell asleep while trying to write this paragraph and again when reading over it for mistakes. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 13:34:07 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:34:07 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <1122023520.20245.128.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> <3370.192.168.0.104.1121993198.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122007247.20245.114.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122023520.20245.128.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122039247.8669.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 02:12 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 21:40 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > We reorganized the release notes to be more friendly for a default > > Firefox page. Not all the changes are in FC4, but the basic idea was to > > add a "what's new" section and make the table of contents more visible > > to show what information is in the release notes. The "what's new" > > contains links to useful information, and would be a natural place to > > put such a note. > > I probably would have done this straight away, it was hard to feel > motivated with such a bug report in front of me. ;-) > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/index.html#sn-why-no-mp3 > > (link should be live within the hour) > > If anyone out there who is not @redhat.com has an opinion to share on > this bug report, I wouldn't mind if the user was better made to > understand the meaning of community. In all its lovely senses. :) I'm happy to pitch in here; I didn't post to the bug report because I felt I couldn't have been as generous as you were. :-) Now that I have a hold on my temper, would you like a comment in the bug or just here in the forum? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:04:34 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:04:34 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in ... In-Reply-To: <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <556f970a05072209045df9f51@mail.gmail.com> One thing that would be handy in these situations would be a "review" that accomanied the release notes. You highlight the product, the way you wish a journalist would, and send it out. If you answer the recurring mistakes (e.g. they evaluate it as a production distro, they assume mulimedia issues are shallower than they are, etc). You write the spotlights from with the position you want Fedora to maintain (i.e. from and for the point of view of the appopriate user.) We can tell people why DVD and MP3 support is gone, point out alternative technologies, or anit-patent petitions, and even link to sites that have workaround instructions. Even safer, we can advise they "Google it". It's not fair to say all journalists are lazy, but enough of them are lazy and/or sloppy (or have editors/fact checkers less familiar with the material than they are) to make this worthwhile, since they will cut paste and paraphrase this into a "story" the way they do with press releases on slow news days. For those that don't, it's very easy for us to post a link to this "release review" and the tertiary, release notes and FAQs in the comments of any article that takes the wrong approach. --jeremy From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:11:57 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:11:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/20/05, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > > So like from up2date one could choose: "add > > external sources". The list could be updated via web - and then there > > would be no problem, because only the enabling software is distributed. > > I think you are wrong about where the grey line is. My personal > understanding is that nothing distributed by default can pull in > outside package sources to choose from or it has the potential to run > afoul of the definition of "contributory infringement". You can't have > up2date or any tool in the distro point to a list of external repos to > choose from. Just like fedora.redhat.com can not link directly to a > site like fedoratracker. Couldn't the user add the repo names themselves? Adding third party repositories is a legit feature in and of itself, so we could have a list of repos of official Fedora mirrors and channels like Extras and Alternatives (and stable/test/release etc), that was autopolulated, and a field for a user to add other URLs. Then we're just talking about a GUI for repo management. --jeremy From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:35:12 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:35:12 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> On 7/22/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Couldn't the user add the repo names themselves? Adding third party > repositories is a legit feature in and of itself, so we could have a > list of repos of official Fedora mirrors and channels like Extras and > Alternatives (and stable/test/release etc), that was autopolulated, > and a field for a user to add other URLs. Then we're just talking > about a GUI for repo management. Its not simply one field. You'd have to add the name, the baseurl or mirrorlist url, whether or not you wanted gpgsig checking on, and then the gpgkey url and so on. The repo definition files have multiple settings that can be applied. Sure.. you could expose the full guts of creating a repo definition file via a gui and then require the users who create repo definitions that way to manually update those definitions by hand during upgrades to the next core release, but you might as well just give them instructions on how to use gedit at that point. But that doesnt solve the problem of finding those repos. We can't tell users about those 3rd party repos anywhere inside Core or the official website. And for repos that offer reponame-release packages, it is far better to encourage people install that package to create the predefined repo configs which can be updated by the repo maintainer than it is to have users botching the writing of repo definitions by hand because they don't use things like the $releasever variables as appropriate to ease upgrade path to the next release. The only users you really are going to help by exposing a full gui for creating a repo definition file are those users who are already know enough about which repos they want to actually edit a repo config by hand anyways. A mechanism to make it easy for users to click on a link on the 3rd party repo website to download and install the provided reponame-release.. serves all users. Users of a repo should be encouraged to use a repo config provided and updatable by the repo maintainer instead of making one by hand. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 22 16:45:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:45:37 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in ... In-Reply-To: <556f970a05072209045df9f51@mail.gmail.com> References: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> <556f970a05072209045df9f51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122050737.20245.151.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 12:04 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > One thing that would be handy in these situations would be a "review" > that accomanied the release notes. You highlight the product, the way > you wish a journalist would, and send it out. If you answer the > recurring mistakes (e.g. they evaluate it as a production distro, they > assume mulimedia issues are shallower than they are, etc). Thanks to Rahul, that is largely what we have this release notes. Although it wasn't created as a canned review, it is certainly a starting point, and appears at the top of the release notes. In the latest version of the relnotes, the legalnotice has been moved from the top to a new section, so the ToC is available and shows: 1. Welcome to Fedora Core 4 1.1. New in Fedora Core 4 1.2. MP3 Codecs and Other Patented or Closed Source Software 2. Legalnotice 3. Introduction and Technical Release Notes 4. Hardware Requirements ... http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/index.html I think this What's New section needs a little more of what you suggest, and then, yeah, we need to distribute it in advance of the release. We came really, really close to having this right for this release. The relnotes were such a throw-together that we are proud to have just done them, so the next time is going to ROCK! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 22 16:51:52 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:51:52 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 12:35 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > The only users you really are going to help by exposing a full gui for > creating a repo definition file are those users who are already know > enough about which repos they want to actually edit a repo config by > hand anyways. A mechanism to make it easy for users to click on a > link on the 3rd party repo website to download and install the > provided reponame-release.. serves all users. Users of a repo should > be encouraged to use a repo config provided and updatable by the repo > maintainer instead of making one by hand. Instead of a package, could repos make their details available via RSS feeds? You would past an RSS URL into the GUI tool and it would pull down the latest details. If the repo maintainer needed to update something, they wouldn't have to roll and release a new package. The GUI could check for repo updates daily, weekly, whatever. Yeah, I know, time to take this part of the conversation to f-devel-l. If anyone likes my idea, feel free to take it and champion it. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 17:51:39 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:51:39 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910507221051745de1d8@mail.gmail.com> On 7/22/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > Instead of a package, could repos make their details available via RSS > feeds? You would past an RSS URL into the GUI tool and it would pull > down the latest details. Ugh.. horrid. You are asking a gui that has to be run by root to scrape configs out of an rss feed. Can you even provide a signed payload that way? Seems to me you are just re-inventing the wheel here. Just pull down a package and install it. Advertising "package links" via rss feeds is a good idea... but encoding the actual configs into an rss feed is not a good way to do this. At the end of the day.. you are installing config files that really should be managed by the rpm system just like what the fedora-release package does right now in Core....which means installing updates via a package. We do it for fedora-release, we should encourage 3rd parties to use the same mechanism. rpm -V is a good thing.. lets not invent something that shortcircuits the ability to verify that the configs you have are really the configs you are expected to have. > something, they wouldn't have to roll and release a new package. The > GUI could check for repo updates daily, weekly, whatever. Yeah we could provide all of files from all packages via an rss feed instead of via rpms. I'm really not seeing the advantage of providing a new mechanism to drop configs into a system. Can't people just advertise links to rpms in the rss feed and have the gui scrape for packages to install? -jef From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 22 18:55:35 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:55:35 -0700 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa7910507221051745de1d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910507221051745de1d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122058535.20245.162.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 13:51 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/22/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Instead of a package, could repos make their details available via RSS > > feeds? You would past an RSS URL into the GUI tool and it would pull > > down the latest details. > > Ugh.. horrid. You are asking a gui that has to be run by root to > scrape configs out of an rss feed. Can you even provide a signed > payload that way? Seems to me you are just re-inventing the wheel > here. Just pull down a package and install it. Advertising "package > links" via rss feeds is a good idea... but encoding the actual configs > into an rss feed is not a good way to do this. At the end of the > day.. you are installing config files that really should be managed by > the rpm system just like what the fedora-release package does right > now in Core....which means installing updates via a package. We do it > for fedora-release, we should encourage 3rd parties to use the same > mechanism. rpm -V is a good thing.. lets not invent something that > shortcircuits the ability to verify that the configs you have are > really the configs you are expected to have. Sure, that makes sense. I was just looking for something that was better than "type it in by hand". A feed would be moderately better at this. But, yeah, it sucks for security. I didn't think the idea through for all implications. > > something, they wouldn't have to roll and release a new package. The > > GUI could check for repo updates daily, weekly, whatever. > > Yeah we could provide all of files from all packages via an rss feed > instead of via rpms. > I'm really not seeing the advantage of providing a new mechanism to > drop configs into a system. Can't people just advertise links to rpms > in the rss feed and have the gui scrape for packages to install? I feel end users might be confused by the idea of installing and updating a package in order to have the latest information on where packages are. But that is probably small minded of me. :) Otherwise, your shoot down of my idea is correct -- the security would be horrid and a reinvention. :) It might help to make fedora-announce-list available as an RSS feed, then ask repo packagers to advertise their updates there. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:29:24 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:29:24 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1122058535.20245.162.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910507221051745de1d8@mail.gmail.com> <1122058535.20245.162.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa791050722122944636a66@mail.gmail.com> On 7/22/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > It might help to make fedora-announce-list available as an RSS feed, > then ask repo packagers to advertise their updates there. http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ http://fedoranews.org/blog/index.php?cat=1 -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:49:12 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:49:12 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1122058535.20245.162.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910507221051745de1d8@mail.gmail.com> <1122058535.20245.162.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa791050722124945707145@mail.gmail.com> On 7/22/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > I feel end users might be confused by the idea of installing and > updating a package in order to have the latest information on where > packages are. Having a specially crafted rss feed that can help a tool to import the repo key and then install the reponame-release package seemlessly for a repo is reasonable. Each post on to that rss feed would include 2 urls one for the repo key and one for the release package as well as some simple information describing the repo. The gui-tool could parse the structured posts to the rss feed and compile a list of additional repos from the user to select. On selection the keys for the repos are imported and then the signed packages which provide the configs are installed You still run into the problem of how to advertise that feed. I don't think you can get away with turning on support for a feed like that by default. And then there are the murky issues about how to notify the users about the consequences of choosing to use repos which overlap with Core and Extras.. before they choose to install configs for those repos. -jef From tp at alternativ.net Sat Jul 23 10:00:01 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:00:01 +0200 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Mittwoch, den 20.07.2005, 12:46 -0400 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: > I think you are wrong about where the grey line is. My personal > understanding is that nothing distributed by default can pull in > outside package sources to choose from or it has the potential to run > afoul of the definition of "contributory infringement". So yumex must be escluded from fedora extras because it can import Repos? That can't be it. > But people would still have to google to find those repositories. Why? Can't a Fedora application use the Google API to get the results? It can't be forbidden to help people. If he start here, where does this end? Do not provide bookmarks, because in China some news sites may be forbidden? I don't see an end of censorship if there can no be at least some hint. A tool to help to find repos must be Ok, we also provide browser that know Google - and Google is also a tool to find such repos. There must be at least some solution? > Fedora > can not link to a site explicitly meant to connect users to items > Fedora itself can not legally distribute without risking "contributory > infringement" claims if those outside repos trafficking in items not > legally distributable under US law. Well then we should not provide network access or browsers at all... and no support for cd drives... What about a page in a tool that describes what is not possible and links to a further page and this page links to a google search - and this google search gives the result of a rpm-package that enables toe possibility for enabling more repositories. (not to make it complicated ... ;-) ) So the information is not on the CD and not at the official Fedora site. A google search result can easily be interated into an application. That information than is provided by Google and not by Fedora. Thilo -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci at jabber.org From mattdm at mattdm.org Sat Jul 23 13:51:45 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:51:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <20050723135145.GA22579@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 at 12:00:01PM +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > > I think you are wrong about where the grey line is. My personal > > understanding is that nothing distributed by default can pull in > > outside package sources to choose from or it has the potential to run > > afoul of the definition of "contributory infringement". > So yumex must be escluded from fedora extras because it can import > Repos? That can't be it. No, but the default yumex configuration had to change so that it didn't list optional third-party repos. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 14:29:57 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:29:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> On 7/23/05, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > So yumex must be escluded from fedora extras because it can import > Repos? That can't be it. take a good long hard look at the yumex in extras. It no longer provides a static list of additional 3rd party repos in its install. > Why? Can't a Fedora application use the Google API to get the results? 1) Use of google's api is for personal use only and requires users obtain a license key from Google unless the you can get written consent from Google to do something different. The restrictions google places on access to its web api is pretty impractical for any open source client. 2) While Google is pretty good, its not fool-proof. I would absolutely not trust pulling system configs directly from a list of websites Google returns without human review. And well.. if you are going to do human review.. you might as well just open up a browser and use google. If someone does attempt to make a tool that scrapes Google outout for webpages with system configs and repo definitions.. I will delibrately try to create a false website that gets highly ranked to disrupt the tool's use of google. > A tool to help to find repos must be Ok, we also provide > browser that know Google - and Google is also a tool to find such repos. > There must be at least some solution? Google is a tool to find anything... anywhere. A local user must initiate the communication with Google and must ask Google explicitly for things to search for. A tool designed only to find information about repos to help users obtain items we can't legally ship.. automatically... is totally different. > Well then we should not provide network access or browsers at all... and > no support for cd drives... Feel free to be as flippant as you want.. thats not going to change the fact that there are real legal issues here that Red Hat as the managing entity needs to be careful of. If you can't take this seriously.. then please.. just be quiet. Contributory infringement, involves a delibrate intent to knowingly aid others to infringe. I think its pretty damn clear that adding any tool that delibrately help users find additional repos and instantly configure them falls into the definition of contributory infringement. A tool that just handles repo configs is very narrowly defined, its not a general use tool. Most if not all of the popular 3rd party repos out there are popular specifically because they provide material that Fedora can not. - and > this google search gives the result of a rpm-package that enables toe > possibility for enabling more repositories. (not to make it > complicated ... ;-) ) So the information is not on the CD and not at the > official Fedora site. A google search result can easily be interated > into an application. I don't think you can get away with a pre-defined google search. Even if it was legally okay to do that, i think you can trust the accuracy of the pre-defined google search over the lifetime of a release. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who would delibrately attempt to corrupt the dynamic list of results to that google search, and I'm pretty sure the other people would put in pages far more malicious than mine. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 21:23:42 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:23:42 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <1121843530.20245.21.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <604aa79105071907352b019718@mail.gmail.com> <1121796533.5590.32.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105071911122ca24d9b@mail.gmail.com> <1121797979.5590.45.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050719120969389928@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050719144415381e8b@mail.gmail.com> <1121811261.438.0.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <604aa79105071916254b921ac9@mail.gmail.com> <1121843530.20245.21.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa791050723142348408fde@mail.gmail.com> On 7/20/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > If you want to rough out and write up the basic HOWTO for this, how > about using the Wiki? We can take that and DocBookify it down the road, > but having it be a living document that is not hidden in CVS would be > good. http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting Instabul package is going through review now. As soon as i get approval for it and the Extras build process comes back up people should be able to play around with this by pulling istanbul and gstreamers-plugins from development... even on an fc4 box. -jef From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Sun Jul 24 02:31:51 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:31:51 +0800 (WST) Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in ... In-Reply-To: <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <33746.202.72.163.232.1122172311.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> > We can just add a section to the release notes that mirrors the > information on the Wiki. > >> Should we look at all examples of put all examples down and start >> creating >> a 'template' of how to lay it out or has that already been done. If >> so can someone point me in the right direction please. > > Sorry, I don't understand what 'it' is that we would lay out. I meant like a template in a constant way of the marketing group or doc's group to release information. I think however in recent months it has improved a hell of a lot however I think getting the message out is important. > >> Just putting suggestions forward and I suppose I'm trying to >> 'picture' >> how it would look. Possibly start on a table of contents or has that >> been >> progressed on. > > Sorry, a ToC for what exactly? Sorry for not being concise enough. As you bootup firefox after fedora has been installed it brings up the front page of I believe of fedora.redhat.com is that right? I suppose adding links to that for help and or what to do. Where to get information and things like that. The ToC related to I suppose what other information should we link up to it. From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Sun Jul 24 02:47:11 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:47:11 +0800 (WST) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa791050722124945707145@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05072209114dd65597@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050722093517fcae2a@mail.gmail.com> <1122051112.20245.155.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910507221051745de1d8@mail.gmail.com> <1122058535.20245.162.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa791050722124945707145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33792.202.72.163.232.1122173231.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> > On 7/22/05, Karsten Wade wrote: >> I feel end users might be confused by the idea of installing and >> updating a package in order to have the latest information on where >> packages are. > > Having a specially crafted rss feed that can help a tool to import the > repo key and then install the reponame-release package seemlessly for > a repo is reasonable. > Each post on to that rss feed would include 2 urls one for the repo > key and one for the release package as well as some simple information > describing the repo. The gui-tool could parse the structured posts to > the rss feed and compile a list of additional repos from the user to > select. On selection the keys for the repos are imported and then the > signed packages which provide the configs are installed > > You still run into the problem of how to advertise that feed. I don't > think you can get away with turning on support for a feed like that by > default. And then there are the murky issues about how to notify the > users about the consequences of choosing to use repos which overlap > with Core and Extras.. before they choose to install configs for those > repos. > > -jef > I would have to agree with that last paragraph. When I first started using Fedora the only problems I ever had was mixing the repo's up. Now with a little bit of experience I know what repositories to mix and what not to. If something like this is going to be implemented which I like the idea of it it really needs to be stressed that you may mess up your whole system. Although its rebuildable however it still takes awhile to rebuild it. Marc > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Sun Jul 24 02:57:06 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:57:06 +0800 (WST) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33820.202.72.163.232.1122173826.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> >> A tool to help to find repos must be Ok, we also provide >> browser that know Google - and Google is also a tool to find such repos. >> There must be at least some solution? > > Google is a tool to find anything... anywhere. A local user must > initiate the communication with Google and must ask Google explicitly > for things to search for. > A tool designed only to find information about repos to help users > obtain items we can't legally ship.. automatically... is totally > different. > >> Well then we should not provide network access or browsers at all... and >> no support for cd drives... > > Feel free to be as flippant as you want.. thats not going to change > the fact that there are real legal issues here that Red Hat as the > managing entity needs to be careful of. If you can't take this > seriously.. then please.. just be quiet. Contributory infringement, > involves a delibrate intent to knowingly aid others to infringe. I > think its pretty damn clear that adding any tool that delibrately help > users find additional repos and instantly configure them falls into > the definition of contributory infringement. A tool that just handles > repo configs is very narrowly defined, its not a general use tool. > Most if not all of the popular 3rd party repos out there are popular > specifically because they provide material that Fedora can not. One thing that has frustrated me is that we seem before to have just turned a blind eye to the whole lot even though we know its there. Only now are we making it clearer as to the reasons why mp3's and the propietary software are not supported. However let me ask this is it illegal to add a 3rd party repo or is it only illegal if the content on it is wrong? I'm not being stupid I don't understand where the line is because I'm lucky we don't have that law in Australia at the moment I'm sure that will change. If it isn't illegal to supply a repo then what is the problem in for instance having a list of repo's for yumex like you said. > > - and >> this google search gives the result of a rpm-package that enables toe >> possibility for enabling more repositories. (not to make it >> complicated ... ;-) ) So the information is not on the CD and not at the >> official Fedora site. A google search result can easily be interated >> into an application. > > I don't think you can get away with a pre-defined google search. Even > if it was legally okay to do that, i think you can trust the accuracy > of the pre-defined google search over the lifetime of a release. I'm > pretty sure I'm not the only one who would delibrately attempt to > corrupt the dynamic list of results to that google search, and I'm > pretty sure the other people would put in pages far more malicious > than mine. > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Sun Jul 24 03:05:19 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: <33820.202.72.163.232.1122173826.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <33820.202.72.163.232.1122173826.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jul 2005, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > One thing that has frustrated me is that we seem before to have just > turned a blind eye to the whole lot even though we know its there. Only > now are we making it clearer as to the reasons why mp3's and the > propietary software are not supported. Better late than never, and hard to do everything right the first time. > However let me ask this is it illegal to add a 3rd party repo or is it > only illegal if the content on it is wrong? It's *probably* illegal to add 3rd party repos that we know to include infringing content -- because that would be the same as *knowingly directing users to illegal content*. Because most 3rd party repos don't care much about these issues (largely because they don't have to), it's too risky for us to refer users directly to these repos. > I'm not being stupid I don't understand where the line is because I'm > lucky we don't have that law in Australia at the moment I'm sure that will > change. Part of the problem is that the line isn't bright and clear. For that reason, we will be quite conservative in the decisions we make abut what might infringe. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mattdm at mattdm.org Sun Jul 24 13:56:55 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:56:55 -0400 Subject: Fedora review In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <33820.202.72.163.232.1122173826.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <20050724135655.GA2001@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sat, Jul 23, 2005 at 11:05:19PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > It's *probably* illegal to add 3rd party repos that we know to include > infringing content -- because that would be the same as *knowingly > directing users to illegal content*. Because most 3rd party repos don't > care much about these issues (largely because they don't have to), it's > too risky for us to refer users directly to these repos. Although, a lot of the content isn't actually illegal -- just grey area. > Part of the problem is that the line isn't bright and clear. For that > reason, we will be quite conservative in the decisions we make abut what > might infringe. Right. :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jul 24 15:55:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:55:57 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in ... In-Reply-To: <33746.202.72.163.232.1122172311.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <3814.192.168.0.104.1122014691.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122023031.20245.122.camel@erato.phig.org> <33746.202.72.163.232.1122172311.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1122220557.26275.31.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 10:31 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > Sorry, a ToC for what exactly? > > Sorry for not being concise enough. As you bootup firefox after fedora > has been installed it brings up the front page of I believe of > fedora.redhat.com is that right? Actually, it's a local copy of the release notes. It is in a visual template that is the same as fedora.redhat.com, and the side links take you to live URLs. It is a local copy because we can't be sure someone has network access and don't want the browser to not have a page to show. This was why we updated the release notes to address the kinds of things you are talking about. We (tried) to move the legalese so that it was not at the top of the page, made the ToC more prominent, and have introduced a What's New in Fedora Core section, and now there is a 1.2. MP3 Codecs and Other Patented or Closed Source Software. If you look at this page: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/ That is similar to what it *should* look like for FC5. Unfortunately, the changes to make the legalnotice lower didn't make it into the release version of fedora-release. There is an errata of this package in QA that has the legalnotice moved. We might release another errata in a while, after we get more kinks ironed out of the relnotes. We didn't have time or a proper marketing group to talk about this with, so Rahul and I just made the changes. It's good to see that we were anticipating a need. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jul 24 16:04:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:04:59 -0700 Subject: the gray line Message-ID: <1122221100.26275.36.camel@erato.phig.org> Please allow me to pull this discussion into a separate thread, as I'm losing the details in the "Fedora Guide" thread. Trying to understand what the current position is on linking to third- party sites that -may- link to other sites that may have infringing content. In other words, fedorafaq.org, fedoraforum.org, etc. My current understanding is: * We -can- send people to those sites, as general answer sites * We -cannot- send people to those sites to "get your MP3s" * This is because we are not able to control the content of any website, from google.com to fedorafaq.org. This is different from knowing that the target URL has specific packages that circumvent stuff. Is that clear as mud? thx - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ehemdal at townisp.com Sun Jul 24 16:58:27 2005 From: ehemdal at townisp.com (Erik Hemdal) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:58:27 -0400 Subject: the gray line In-Reply-To: <1122221100.26275.36.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050724165829.9CA7329921@ns4.townisp.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com > [mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf > Of Karsten Wade > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 12:05 PM > To: fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > Subject: the gray line > > Please allow me to pull this discussion into a separate > thread, as I'm losing the details in the "Fedora Guide" thread. > > Trying to understand what the current position is on linking > to third- party sites that -may- link to other sites that may > have infringing content. In other words, fedorafaq.org, > fedoraforum.org, etc. > > My current understanding is: > > * We -can- send people to those sites, as general answer sites > * We -cannot- send people to those sites to "get your MP3s" > * This is because we are not able to control the content of > any website, from google.com to fedorafaq.org. This is > different from knowing that the target URL has specific > packages that circumvent stuff. > > Is that clear as mud? > > thx - Karsten >From what I have read, the issue is one of inducement of infringement, brought to the fore by the US Supreme Court's decision in June against Grokster. The classic in this area of IP law was the "Betamax" decision which came down on Sony's side. In that case, the Court allowed Betamax video recorders to be sold because Sony made the case for a video recorder to be a "time-shifting" device. Recording a TV show so you can watch it later was not considered to be an infringing use. Sony did not go out of its way to show users how to steal movies using Beta video tapes. They didn't offer a service that made illegal movies available to users. They only made a machine that could record video. Sony wasn't at fault for infringement simply because a user could use a VCR to steal movies. In the Grokster case, the key difference is that Grokster appeared to encourage its users to use their software to obtain illegal copies of music files. They did not charge any fees, and only earned revenue from ads visible to users. So the case was made that Grokster depended on illegal file sharing for its business model. The more illegal activity, the more people used Grokster (giving it advertising revenue). So this new decision says that you can be liable for infringement if you encourage others to infringe. According to the Grokster decision, that company went too far. But there's no definition of exactly how much encouragement is too much. So companies that make technology are properly cautious right now. Karsten, are their attorneys at Red Hat who can offer guidelines about what the Fedora Project can do, how much can be done to encourage users, and how it should be explained? It's really a legal topic. Erik From gdk at redhat.com Sun Jul 24 17:09:35 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the gray line In-Reply-To: <20050724165829.9CA7329921@ns4.townisp.com> References: <20050724165829.9CA7329921@ns4.townisp.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jul 2005, Erik Hemdal wrote: > Karsten, are their attorneys at Red Hat who can offer guidelines about what > the Fedora Project can do, how much can be done to encourage users, and how > it should be explained? It's really a legal topic. Red Hat counsel has already weighed in on this topic, and our position is pretty much exactly as Karsten has communicated it. In individual cases, I'm your front-end. And I won't always answer promptly, so common sense goes a long way here. :) When in doubt: be careful. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From lxmaier at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 08:56:30 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:56:30 +0200 Subject: FUDCon London 2005 Message-ID: <7f617d27050725015643a0c914@mail.gmail.com> FUD: An acronym for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. A typical tactic used by the opponents of open source to prevent its widespread adoption. Con: In opposition or disagreement with; against. FUDCon is the conference/summit that focuses on the Fedora Project and all things that go along with it. This includes infrastructure issues, both technological and govermental/intermutual, development issues, community issues, marketing issues and the state of the project address. There is no set time frame with regard to the frequency of FUDCon. So far, FUDCon took place twice: in Boston, USA, and in Karlsruhe, Germany. FUDCon London 2005, the third gathering of Fedora Users and Developers, will be held at LinuxWorld Conference and Expo UK, on the 6th of October in London, UK. FUDCon will feature presentations from prominent members of the Fedora Project, both from Red Hat and from the Fedora community. Attendance is free to anyone attending LinuxWorld UK. The FUDCon staff requests that those who plan to attend FUDCon London 2005 register by sending a short email with your name to fudcon-register at fedoraproject.org Thanks, and we'll see you in London! Call for Presentations Working on an interesting project that uses Fedora? Looking to find contributors to help with your work, or just looking to share your project with the world? Kno somebody who does? Spread the word! The Fedora Project is looking for presenters at FUDCon London 2005. Any topic that relates significantly to the Fedora Project will be considered. Please submit an abstract of no more than 250 words to fudcon-paper at fedoraporject.org. Submission deadline: Friday, August 26th, 2005 Notification of decision: Friday, September 2nd, 2005 Final version deadline: Friday, September 16, 2005 If you want to help out organizing a FUDCon, visit this page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/Organization From tp at alternativ.net Mon Jul 25 09:13:00 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:13:00 +0200 Subject: legal issues (was: Fedora Review) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Samstag, den 23.07.2005, 10:29 -0400 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: > Feel free to be as flippant as you want.. thats not going to change > the fact that there are real legal issues here that Red Hat as the > managing entity needs to be careful of. Ok, but where do we stop? Is Red Hat banning packages from distribution and content that is illegal in Russia or Italy? Would it be a good idea to ask the user on installation where he lives? The installer than could than have a different setup for different countries (another sort of localization). I do not like this direction, because things get split up. Debian also had repos they called "non-us". They had higher enrcyption bit sizes etc.. Did anyone consider that? Thilo -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From tp at alternativ.net Mon Jul 25 09:26:31 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:26:31 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 163675] mpeg situation not explained in documentation] In-Reply-To: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1121977705.20245.107.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122283592.2728.31.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Donnerstag, den 21.07.2005, 13:28 -0700 schrieb Karsten Wade: > Any ideas ? What clearly should take place is heavy collaboration, promotion and contribution to: * OGG/Theora Vorbis xiph.org * ... Yes, OGG is better than MP3. Yes, Fedora is supporting OGG over MP3. But right now I don't see very much of emphasizing the freedom the user gets. From some point of view Fedora is MORE free than Debian. Fedora should always include the newest Vorbis tools, that are available in order to bring their users the newest (and exciting!) technology. So if Fedora would come in a box one should put this newest support things on it. I have just learned about Apples iLive (http://www.apple.com/ilife/ ) thing. Why not promote something similar but Fedora provides it for no cost!? (i know we are not there right now, but somehwere we have to start) -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From kwade at redhat.com Mon Jul 25 18:25:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:25:08 -0700 Subject: the gray line In-Reply-To: References: <20050724165829.9CA7329921@ns4.townisp.com> Message-ID: <1122315908.26275.53.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 13:09 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jul 2005, Erik Hemdal wrote: > > > Karsten, are their attorneys at Red Hat who can offer guidelines about what > > the Fedora Project can do, how much can be done to encourage users, and how > > it should be explained? It's really a legal topic. > > Red Hat counsel has already weighed in on this topic, and our position is > pretty much exactly as Karsten has communicated it. Thanks, this is what I wanted confirmed. The ForbiddenItems wiki page is now a pretty fair canonical reference, including good examples of legally-safe and unambiguous language. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 21:22:56 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:22:56 -0400 Subject: legal issues (was: Fedora Review) In-Reply-To: <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> On 7/25/05, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Ok, but where do we stop? RH has to stop short of violating existing copyright or patent law, no matter how they or we feel about it. > Is Red Hat banning packages from distribution > and content that is illegal in Russia or Italy? There's illegal content in Russia? ;-) > Would it be a good idea > to ask the user on installation where he lives? The installer than could > than have a different setup for different countries (another sort of > localization). I do not like this direction, because things get split > up. Debian also had repos they called "non-us". They had higher > enrcyption bit sizes etc.. Did anyone consider that? Yes, RH is a US based company, and the US is where most of the users live. Enabling something overseas would cause forks in the code they'd not like to maintain, and would send mixed messages to the users. And RH did have alternate encryption for countries where it was legal -- note that "legal" and "not declared illegal" and "tolerated" are all very different, at patent and copyright is all over the map. But, it's not just the considerably tricky legalities, it's the principle. The real issue is that US copyright is broken and software patents are for suckers. So rather than allow people gray area end-arounds to using patent of bully infringed code, we should instead advocate for things like Ogg, Theora and FLAC. And continue to go way out of our way to make sure that people understand the real reasons why RH can't ship that stuff, and it's not that they can't afford the royalties on MP3 codecs. IMHO, since Fedora has not been declared a general purpose stable desktop, telling folks to Google it will get them buy if they insist on using dubious or flat out illegal code. Our target users either understand what's going on, or are adept enough at installingpackages to go and get the tools they need. Anyone who expects Fedora to be an out-of-the-box Mac-mini-killing entertainment desktop will probably be disappointed, but they'll live, and RH won;t get sued into the bedrock. --jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jul 25 21:28:39 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: legal issues (was: Fedora Review) In-Reply-To: <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > The real issue is that US copyright is broken and software patents are > for suckers. So rather than allow people gray area end-arounds to > using patent of bully infringed code, we should instead advocate for > things like Ogg, Theora and FLAC. And continue to go way out of our > way to make sure that people understand the real reasons why RH can't > ship that stuff, and it's not that they can't afford the royalties on > MP3 codecs. "Software patents are for suckers." There's another good slogan for the list. Leave it to Slogan Hogan. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jul 26 00:55:30 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:55:30 -0700 Subject: legal issues (was: Fedora Review) In-Reply-To: References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122339330.26275.74.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 17:28 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > There's another good slogan for the list. Leave it to Slogan Hogan. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Slogans Keep 'em coming. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Jul 26 05:45:45 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:45:45 +0300 Subject: legal issues In-Reply-To: <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Yes, RH is a US based company, and the US is where most of the users > live. I challenge the second part of this affirmation, I am sure most of the Fedora users live outside US. -- nicu Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Tue Jul 26 05:51:07 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:51:07 +0800 (WST) Subject: legal issues In-Reply-To: <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <3130.192.168.0.104.1122357067.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I think the fact that RH sponsors in the corporate environment Fedora then its a target whether or not the majority of the users are outside the USA. Its basically the fact that Fedora is linked to redhat so we have to abide by the US laws whether we agree or not. Thats depressing I know however its life and as I had discussions in my business today about this I find certain aspects of laws in different countries silly, including my own but thats an off-topic discussion for a different day. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > Jeremy Hogan wrote: >> Yes, RH is a US based company, and the US is where most of the users >> live. > > I challenge the second part of this affirmation, I am sure most of the > Fedora users live outside US. > > -- > nicu > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Jul 26 05:58:42 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:58:42 -0700 Subject: legal issues (was: Fedora Review) In-Reply-To: <1122339330.26275.74.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> <1122339330.26275.74.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122357522.3353.2.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 17:55 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Slogans Added: * Fedora: More freedom than you can shake a patent lawyer at! * Fedora: No patent lawyers were harmed in the making of this product. * Fedora: No patent lawyers profited due to the making of this product. * Fedora: All the fun you can have without a patent laywer. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Jul 26 06:05:25 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:05:25 -0400 Subject: legal issues In-Reply-To: <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1122357925.9641.4.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 08:45 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > Yes, RH is a US based company, and the US is where most of the users > > live. > > I challenge the second part of this affirmation, I am sure most of the > Fedora users live outside US. do either of you have any numbers for this discussion to matter? no. does it matter? no. -sv From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 04:51:33 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:51:33 -0400 Subject: legal issues In-Reply-To: <1122357925.9641.4.camel@cutter> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> <1122357925.9641.4.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <556f970a05072621515de348bc@mail.gmail.com> On 7/26/05, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 08:45 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > > Yes, RH is a US based company, and the US is where most of the users > > > live. > > > > I challenge the second part of this affirmation, I am sure most of the > > Fedora users live outside US. > > do either of you have any numbers for this discussion to matter? I was referring to RH users. They're mostly in the US. I don't have exact numbers, but it wouldn't matter re: the point I was actually making. --jeremy From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jul 27 07:28:13 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:28:13 +0900 Subject: legal issues In-Reply-To: <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> References: <2850.192.168.0.104.1121735745.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <42DC7725.9090400@redhat.com> <42DC7CB6.2060806@redhat.com> <1121876621.2939.20.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa791050720094620f3f62c@mail.gmail.com> <1122112801.3288.13.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <604aa79105072307293a8dba60@mail.gmail.com> <1122282780.2728.21.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> <556f970a050725142235afc5b6@mail.gmail.com> <42E5CE09.8070406@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1122449293.8973.249.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 08:45 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > Yes, RH is a US based company, and the US is where most of the users > > live. > > I challenge the second part of this affirmation, I am sure most of > the > Fedora users live outside US. Nonetheless, if we include things w/software patents (making it illegal in the US), we've lost a huge user base -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jul 27 18:22:08 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:08 +0800 Subject: planet floating heads Message-ID: <1122488528.8973.380.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Whom wants to volunteer? Got graphics (i.e. photos), just need floating heads This being for: http://planet.fedoraproject.org/ Oh, btw, do you know of any fedora contributor/hacker that needs to get listed? Point us (seth&me) to an rss feed, thanks -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Jul 28 05:56:37 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:56:37 +0300 Subject: planet floating heads In-Reply-To: <1122488528.8973.380.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1122488528.8973.380.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42E87395.7010202@nicubunu.ro> Colin Charles wrote: > Whom wants to volunteer? > > Got graphics (i.e. photos), just need floating heads > > This being for: http://planet.fedoraproject.org/ I guess I can do that, see as reference planet.inkscape.org and planet.openclipart.org -- nicu From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jul 28 06:21:01 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:21:01 +0800 Subject: planet floating heads In-Reply-To: <42E87395.7010202@nicubunu.ro> References: <1122488528.8973.380.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <42E87395.7010202@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1122531661.8973.449.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 08:56 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > Whom wants to volunteer? > > > > Got graphics (i.e. photos), just need floating heads > > > > This being for: http://planet.fedoraproject.org/ > > I guess I can do that, see as reference planet.inkscape.org and > planet.openclipart.org Too cool. Nicu is our official Planet head man from now on (as is Diana, the Planet head woman :P) I sent a few heads over to Diana (thanks!) Nicu: for people on fedora planet, if you notice a headless poster (take for example anthony green), why not e-mail him and ask for a head? That way, we can have a nice Planet with lots of hackergotchis Much thanks -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Jul 28 06:36:52 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:36:52 +0800 (WST) Subject: mentors Message-ID: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I don't know if this should be in this mailing list but if not please point me to where it should be. Now everyone knows that the more people help out whether thats packaging or coding or even in the marketing section the better Fedora will be. I just was browsing around thinking about this and I came across a debian How you can help page. Reading through it to see how the other camp deal with growing the contributors to the overall OS I noticed they have several mailing lists. Now I know I know we have mailing lists as well. However they have a mailing list called debian-mentors now for me I was surprised. I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as well as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and I thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew. If and I specify if people are willing to mentor couldn't we grow the contributors in that way. I say marketing because in the process of growing the contributors we could grow the marketing by saying we need you to help make this OS better and here's how you can learn to help. I saw it happen with the bugs people (bad way to describe it) in Fedora marketing that they need bugs people, wouldn't it be more logical in promoting a common location and advertising the fact of who's helping out. It might be a great way of getting more people involved. I don't know if its feasible I'm just throwing ideas out there. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:41:14 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:41:14 -0400 Subject: Fedora Rewards Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050728064136162109@mail.gmail.com> Fedora Rewards is the name that I've given to the developing program whereby contributors can receive Fedora Gear, e.g. hats, t-shirts, etc. We have setup the address FedoraRewards at fedoraproject.org to which requests can be sent, and this will operate on a nomination system and I will review the facts in each case, but self-nominations are unlikely to result in stuff being sent out. All of this will be placed in the wiki in the next day or so. Matt Frye The Fedora Schwag Guy From Inka85 at web.de Thu Jul 28 15:38:41 2005 From: Inka85 at web.de (Inka) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:38:41 +0200 Subject: fedora logo idea Message-ID: Hi, my idea for the logo is a blue dolphin with a red hat. Blue, because it's the colour of fedora. Say my if you like it. Inka -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Fedora.png Type: image/png Size: 26574 bytes Desc: not available URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jul 28 16:46:29 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:46:29 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 17:38 +0200, Inka wrote: > Hi, > my idea for the logo is a blue dolphin with a red hat. Blue, because it's > the colour of fedora. > Say my if you like it. > Inka As mentioned before the logo can't have a red hat like that, but thank you for the contribution! -sv From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jul 28 17:45:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:45:37 -0700 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 14:36 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as well > as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and I > thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in > learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to > contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic > contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew. This is an interesting idea. One of the problems facing knowledgeable contributors in mentoring new contributors is separating the wheat from the chaff on current mailing lists. When you do get a chance to mentor, the quality post is easily lost in the flying chaff around it. A list that was specifically for mentoring would have all manner of posts to it, technical, cultural, packaging, why to (v. how to), etc. However, the purpose for mentors to post would be to grow the knowledge and culture. Getting answers in the archives where they can be searched and understood. In this case, a requirement (or strong suggestion) of joining the mentors list is to thumb through the archives. New contributors who read the archives can be answering questions for other newbies, thus carrying on the chain. Ideally, a normal list should function in this mentoring fashion. With such populated and work-intensive lists, however, the mentoring gets lost. Another possibility would be, when a mentor-type is posting something to any list that has good mentoring in it, they are asked to cross-post to fedora-mentoring-list. Thus the list becomes a targeted location for mentoring activity all over the project. Good idea! If we work out the details, I'll sponsor starting the list, if you are interested in helping administrate and promote the idea. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Inka85 at web.de Thu Jul 28 18:06:52 2005 From: Inka85 at web.de (Inka) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:06:52 +0200 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> Message-ID: why not red? Were can I see what was mentioned before about the logo ideas? I thought, it should be red, because it shows that it has something to do with redhat. Well I could change the colour of the hat easily. On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:46:29 +0200, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 17:38 +0200, Inka wrote: >> Hi, >> my idea for the logo is a blue dolphin with a red hat. Blue, because >> it's >> the colour of fedora. >> Say my if you like it. >> Inka > > As mentioned before the logo can't have a red hat like that, but thank > you for the contribution! > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jul 28 18:10:46 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:10:46 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 20:06 +0200, Inka wrote: > why not red? Were can I see what was mentioned before about the logo > ideas? I thought, it should be red, because it shows that it has something > to do with redhat. Well I could change the colour of the hat easily. > Read back in the archives of the list about hats. about 3 or so weeks ago. -sv From paulds at bu.edu Thu Jul 28 18:14:12 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:14:12 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 02:10:46PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 20:06 +0200, Inka wrote: > > why not red? Were can I see what was mentioned before about the logo > > ideas? I thought, it should be red, because it shows that it has something > > to do with redhat. Well I could change the colour of the hat easily. > > > > Read back in the archives of the list about hats. about 3 or so weeks > ago. Specifically, read the thread entitled "Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea)". Even more specifically, see this message from Greg: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-June/msg00333.html - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 18:37:55 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:37:55 -0400 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 10:45 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 14:36 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > > I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as well > > as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and I > > thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in > > learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to > > contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic > > contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew. > > This is an interesting idea. > > One of the problems facing knowledgeable contributors in mentoring new > contributors is separating the wheat from the chaff on current mailing > lists. When you do get a chance to mentor, the quality post is easily > lost in the flying chaff around it. > > A list that was specifically for mentoring would have all manner of > posts to it, technical, cultural, packaging, why to (v. how to), etc. > However, the purpose for mentors to post would be to grow the knowledge > and culture. Getting answers in the archives where they can be searched > and understood. I don't want to throw cold water on what I think is a really good idea. But it bears mentioning that it would be *very* easy for this list to become "fedora-list II." That's not a judgment call on the worth of fedora-list, just a note that the f-mentoring-l would become redundant if that happened. > In this case, a requirement (or strong suggestion) of joining the > mentors list is to thumb through the archives. New contributors who > read the archives can be answering questions for other newbies, thus > carrying on the chain. Why doesn't this become a feature of FedoraForum.org instead? That kind of presentation for this information is much more popular and less intimidating than mailing lists, plus it means that people who are not happy to receive large amounts of email daily are more likely to participate, even if it is sporadically. > Ideally, a normal list should function in this mentoring fashion. With > such populated and work-intensive lists, however, the mentoring gets > lost. Exactly. > Another possibility would be, when a mentor-type is posting something to > any list that has good mentoring in it, they are asked to cross-post to > fedora-mentoring-list. Thus the list becomes a targeted location for > mentoring activity all over the project. I wonder if there's a way of enabling this from the forum side... not sure since I don't run one. Might be worth bringing it up with the FF.org manager. > Good idea! > > If we work out the details, I'll sponsor starting the list, if you are > interested in helping administrate and promote the idea. If you're able to keep an appropriate dress code, it could work well. I'm in favor of figuring out a way to hook the content to FF.org. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Inka85 at web.de Thu Jul 28 19:03:11 2005 From: Inka85 at web.de (Inka) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:03:11 +0200 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: Okay, thanks for telling me. Now I understand. Well, still, what do you think about the idea with the dolphin? I read through the old posts and think it fits to most of your wishes: - the red hat can be left outside, so there is no hat - it'S blue - it's a non-brand - it has the spirit of fedora (dolphin is a symbole for free) I made another dolphin without the words. The dolphin is formed like a F. I put a hat over him balancing, but we can use just the dolphin. If you like the idea with the dolphin I'll send it. Let me here your opinion please. On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:14:12 +0200, Paul Stauffer wrote: > On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 02:10:46PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: >> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 20:06 +0200, Inka wrote: >> > why not red? Were can I see what was mentioned before about the logo >> > ideas? I thought, it should be red, because it shows that it has >> something >> > to do with redhat. Well I could change the colour of the hat easily. >> > >> >> Read back in the archives of the list about hats. about 3 or so weeks >> ago. > > Specifically, read the thread entitled "Logos: everybody wants one but > nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora > schwag > idea)". > > Even more specifically, see this message from Greg: > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-June/msg00333.html > > - Paul > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From paulds at bu.edu Thu Jul 28 19:07:14 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:07:14 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 09:03:11PM +0200, Inka wrote: > Okay, thanks for telling me. Now I understand. > Well, still, what do you think about the idea with the dolphin? I read > through the old posts and think it fits to most of your wishes: > - the red hat can be left outside, so there is no hat > - it'S blue > - it's a non-brand > - it has the spirit of fedora (dolphin is a symbole for free) I think it's worthy of consideration. In addition to having implications of freedom, dolphins are also highly intelligent and playful, much like the typical Linux hacker. :) - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jul 28 19:09:16 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:09:16 -0700 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <1122577756.18792.6.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 15:07 -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: > I think it's worthy of consideration. In addition to having implications of > freedom, dolphins are also highly intelligent and playful, much like the > typical Linux hacker. :) And they are the MySQL mascott, so nothing like product confusion.... -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jul 28 19:12:02 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:12:02 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 15:07 -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: > On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 09:03:11PM +0200, Inka wrote: > > Okay, thanks for telling me. Now I understand. > > Well, still, what do you think about the idea with the dolphin? I read > > through the old posts and think it fits to most of your wishes: > > - the red hat can be left outside, so there is no hat > > - it'S blue > > - it's a non-brand > > - it has the spirit of fedora (dolphin is a symbole for free) > > I think it's worthy of consideration. In addition to having implications of > freedom, dolphins are also highly intelligent and playful, much like the > typical Linux hacker. :) > is there a cranky, bitter and sleep-deprived animal I could use to work on a logo? -sv From paulds at bu.edu Thu Jul 28 19:12:04 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:12:04 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20050728191203.GD13269@prozac.horde.com> On Thu, Jul 28, 2005 at 03:12:02PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > is there a cranky, bitter and sleep-deprived animal I could use to work on > a logo? How about a rabid alleycat with tail mange? - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 19:12:38 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:12:38 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105072812123899a123@mail.gmail.com> On 7/28/05, seth vidal wrote: > is there a cranky, bitter and sleep-deprived animal I could use to work > on a logo? You mean i missed the mark with scapegoat? -jef From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jul 28 19:17:11 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:17:11 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <604aa79105072812123899a123@mail.gmail.com> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> <604aa79105072812123899a123@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122578232.19679.41.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 15:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 7/28/05, seth vidal wrote: > > is there a cranky, bitter and sleep-deprived animal I could use to work > > on a logo? > > You mean i missed the mark with scapegoat? > didn't look sleepy. -sv From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Jul 29 01:04:59 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:04:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1103.192.168.0.104.1122599099.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> I have no issues in administrating it and probably need a mentor to do that :) I would love to not just help promote it but be a part of it. The problem that I found in first starting out is I had questions from reading the manual that I couldn't find answered. To go on a devel mailing list would just cause issues in the fact that the people on there wouldn't want someone new to ask stupid questions that probably could be answered else where. Hence when I saw that mentoring I thought what a great way for a developer who sees for example something that might help their fellow developers or great bit of info that he/she has written they can post on the mentoring list as well so that the growth in knowledge and contribution to the Fedora project can increase. You have my full support if implemented and also my contribution. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 14:36 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > >> I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as >> well >> as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions and >> I >> thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in >> learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to >> contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic >> contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew. > > This is an interesting idea. > > One of the problems facing knowledgeable contributors in mentoring new > contributors is separating the wheat from the chaff on current mailing > lists. When you do get a chance to mentor, the quality post is easily > lost in the flying chaff around it. > > A list that was specifically for mentoring would have all manner of > posts to it, technical, cultural, packaging, why to (v. how to), etc. > However, the purpose for mentors to post would be to grow the knowledge > and culture. Getting answers in the archives where they can be searched > and understood. > > In this case, a requirement (or strong suggestion) of joining the > mentors list is to thumb through the archives. New contributors who > read the archives can be answering questions for other newbies, thus > carrying on the chain. > > Ideally, a normal list should function in this mentoring fashion. With > such populated and work-intensive lists, however, the mentoring gets > lost. > > Another possibility would be, when a mentor-type is posting something to > any list that has good mentoring in it, they are asked to cross-post to > fedora-mentoring-list. Thus the list becomes a targeted location for > mentoring activity all over the project. > > Good idea! > > If we work out the details, I'll sponsor starting the list, if you are > interested in helping administrate and promote the idea. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Jul 29 01:10:50 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:10:50 +0800 (WST) Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums however the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its sortof backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as a specific question can get asked out on the forums. My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website. That being said I think the devel side. I know Rahul is on there a heap which I think its great. Most I would say go wow this is a person who contributes, he is willing to contribute his mindset to a problem or a question as well and generally puts a different view which might not have been considered. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra Choice Tyre Wholesalers > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 10:45 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: >> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 14:36 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> >> > I personally have spent numerous days learning how to build rpm's as >> well >> > as trying to follow the fedora package naming and layout conventions >> and I >> > thought wouldn't that be a great idea. If someone is interested in >> > learning provided they don't waste peoples time by actually WANTING to >> > contribute maybe a mentors list go get them from a newbie/basic >> > contributor to an active member of the support/devel crew. >> >> This is an interesting idea. >> >> One of the problems facing knowledgeable contributors in mentoring new >> contributors is separating the wheat from the chaff on current mailing >> lists. When you do get a chance to mentor, the quality post is easily >> lost in the flying chaff around it. >> >> A list that was specifically for mentoring would have all manner of >> posts to it, technical, cultural, packaging, why to (v. how to), etc. >> However, the purpose for mentors to post would be to grow the knowledge >> and culture. Getting answers in the archives where they can be searched >> and understood. > > I don't want to throw cold water on what I think is a really good idea. > But it bears mentioning that it would be *very* easy for this list to > become "fedora-list II." That's not a judgment call on the worth of > fedora-list, just a note that the f-mentoring-l would become redundant > if that happened. > >> In this case, a requirement (or strong suggestion) of joining the >> mentors list is to thumb through the archives. New contributors who >> read the archives can be answering questions for other newbies, thus >> carrying on the chain. > > Why doesn't this become a feature of FedoraForum.org instead? That kind > of presentation for this information is much more popular and less > intimidating than mailing lists, plus it means that people who are not > happy to receive large amounts of email daily are more likely to > participate, even if it is sporadically. > >> Ideally, a normal list should function in this mentoring fashion. With >> such populated and work-intensive lists, however, the mentoring gets >> lost. > > Exactly. > >> Another possibility would be, when a mentor-type is posting something to >> any list that has good mentoring in it, they are asked to cross-post to >> fedora-mentoring-list. Thus the list becomes a targeted location for >> mentoring activity all over the project. > > I wonder if there's a way of enabling this from the forum side... not > sure since I don't run one. Might be worth bringing it up with the > FF.org manager. > >> Good idea! >> >> If we work out the details, I'll sponsor starting the list, if you are >> interested in helping administrate and promote the idea. > > If you're able to keep an appropriate dress code, it could work well. > I'm in favor of figuring out a way to hook the content to FF.org. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jul 29 08:02:17 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:02:17 -0700 Subject: mentors In-Reply-To: <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> References: <1848.192.168.0.104.1122532612.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> <1122572737.26275.212.camel@erato.phig.org> <1122575875.3143.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1136.192.168.0.104.1122599450.squirrel@www.smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <1122624138.5322.27.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 09:10 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Could it be setup in a way where the posts are done to the forums however > the information flow is done through the mailing list. I know its sortof > backwards but a generic bit of info goes to the mailing list. Where as a > specific question can get asked out on the forums. > > My only problem that I can see is I'm not sure whether there are > sufficient developers that visit the fedoraforum.org website. This is a good point. Users run all over the place for help, and there are more of them, so they reach a critical mass more easily. Developers are creatures of habit. A Web based forum is less likely to get input than an easy, traditional mailing list. Gated to a news server, of course. :) We can ask for easy behavior modifications ("If it sounds like good advice, Cc: it to f-mentoring-l"), but we are challenged when we ask for new workflows ("All developers, start helping and mentoring on fedoraforum.org"). Paul, your idea makes _sense_, but I don't know if we are in an area of senses. ;-) - Karsten Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 18:39:41 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:39:41 -0400 Subject: CSS for HTML output Message-ID: <1122662381.18487.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Pursuant to the following bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=159147 ...I made some changes to the CSS in the Docs Project CVS. Rahul was looking (correctly, Karsten and I think) for a look that would differentiate our docs from Red Hat's. Most of our style sheet comes from the one that Red Hat uses, in particular the coloration of headings and admonitions. I moved the headings to a blue color taken directly from the Fedora web site CSS (the sidebar, to be more specific), and for the admonition boxes, I came up with a yellow that is hopefully attention-getting without being garish. I left the coloration of screen sections alone since there wasn't a clear reason to change it. Refer to a mock-up here to avoid having to build anything yourself: http://docs.frields.org/mirror-tutorial-en/sn-planning-and-setup.html If I can speak for Karsten, pursuant to a conversation we had today, we would like to know what people think about adopting this CSS for DocBook generated pages on the fedora.redhat.com web site. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Inka85 at web.de Sat Jul 30 10:51:42 2005 From: Inka85 at web.de (Inka) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:51:42 +0200 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <1122578232.19679.41.camel@cutter> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> <604aa79105072812123899a123@mail.gmail.com> <1122578232.19679.41.camel@cutter> Message-ID: > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 15:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On 7/28/05, seth vidal wrote: >> > is there a cranky, bitter and sleep-deprived animal I could use to >> work >> > on a logo? >> >> You mean i missed the mark with scapegoat? >> > > didn't look sleepy. > > -sv here's another try with the dolphin. It's not worked out yet, so it's just the idea, which counts. The dolphin should look like an F. What do you think about that? Inka -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Dolphin F.png Type: image/png Size: 7695 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 15:19:28 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:19:28 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> <604aa79105072812123899a123@mail.gmail.com> <1122578232.19679.41.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1122736768.2996.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 12:51 +0200, Inka wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 15:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> On 7/28/05, seth vidal wrote: > >> > is there a cranky, bitter and sleep-deprived animal I could use to > >> work > >> > on a logo? > >> > >> You mean i missed the mark with scapegoat? > > > > didn't look sleepy. > > here's another try with the dolphin. It's not worked out yet, so it's just > the idea, which counts. The dolphin should look like an F. > What do you think about that? As Jesse pointed out, dolphins are already mascots for MySQL (see http://www.mysql.com/ if you haven't already), so they're probably not a great idea for Fedora. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 21:51:21 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:51:21 -0400 Subject: fedora logo idea In-Reply-To: <1122578232.19679.41.camel@cutter> References: <1122569189.19679.8.camel@cutter> <1122574246.19679.29.camel@cutter> <20050728181412.GA13269@prozac.horde.com> <20050728190714.GC13269@prozac.horde.com> <1122577923.19679.39.camel@cutter> <604aa79105072812123899a123@mail.gmail.com> <1122578232.19679.41.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <556f970a05073014515abd30c7@mail.gmail.com> On 7/28/05, seth vidal wrote: > > You mean i missed the mark with scapegoat? > > > > didn't look sleepy. How about a one testicled badger with cataracts and hyper tension, coming down from a cross country crystal meth bender and interstate police chase, in a red hat. --jeremy From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Jul 31 00:47:50 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:47:50 -0500 Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) Message-ID: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> I wanted to throw out the idea of setting up a spot on the wiki to provide information about distribution of Fedora, particularly expanding upon information for distributors. At current, there are no readily-available guidelines for OEM companies who are interested in distributing Fedora Core. There also isn't much information for companies interested in preparing and selling Fedora in packaged forms. Working for an OEM vendor, I know this kind of thing is sought after. I would like to change things. I propose http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution be used to provide information about obtaining and distributing Fedora Core. I would like it to be a resource for both companies and end users. For companies, it can provide guides and guidelines for the legal distribution of Fedora Core in assorted media formats, including pre-installed systems. For the end user, it can provide information on how to properly obtain, install, or upgrade Fedora Core, including how to find vendors locally or online. It would be nice to provide a page to list local vendors. Currently, the vendor list at f.r.c is limited to online vendors. At least for now, this section would largely be linking to the disparate resources on f.r.c and in the wiki. This section could be linked with the Fedora Marketing Project, and with smaller projects like the LiveCD effort. It could provide a central point to tie these various aspects of Fedora distribution together. It might be nice to back this effort up with a mailing list et al. Providing a framework for vendors to introduce themselves and request listings would be a must. I'd love any feedback on this idea. If there are no real objections, I'd love to get this started. I've sent this message to both fedora-devel-list and fedora-marketing-list to field the opinions of all who this most immediately concerns. For those of you who subscribe to both, I apologize for the duplication. Further discussion should probably be directed at fedora-marketing-list. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 07:10:31 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:10:31 +0200 Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) In-Reply-To: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> References: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> Message-ID: <7f617d27050731001065884e18@mail.gmail.com> Doesn't this section already provide the information you are talking about? http://fedora.redhat.com/download/vendors.html However, I think it would make sense to duplicate this information in the Wiki. a On 7/31/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I wanted to throw out the idea of setting up a spot on the wiki to > provide information about distribution of Fedora, particularly expanding > upon information for distributors. At current, there are no > readily-available guidelines for OEM companies who are interested in > distributing Fedora Core. There also isn't much information for > companies interested in preparing and selling Fedora in packaged forms. > Working for an OEM vendor, I know this kind of thing is sought after. I > would like to change things. > > I propose http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution be used to provide > information about obtaining and distributing Fedora Core. I would like > it to be a resource for both companies and end users. For companies, it > can provide guides and guidelines for the legal distribution of Fedora > Core in assorted media formats, including pre-installed systems. For > the end user, it can provide information on how to properly obtain, > install, or upgrade Fedora Core, including how to find vendors locally > or online. It would be nice to provide a page to list local vendors. > Currently, the vendor list at f.r.c is limited to online vendors. > > At least for now, this section would largely be linking to the disparate > resources on f.r.c and in the wiki. This section could be linked with > the Fedora Marketing Project, and with smaller projects like the LiveCD > effort. It could provide a central point to tie these various aspects > of Fedora distribution together. It might be nice to back this effort > up with a mailing list et al. Providing a framework for vendors to > introduce themselves and request listings would be a must. > > I'd love any feedback on this idea. If there are no real objections, > I'd love to get this started. > > I've sent this message to both fedora-devel-list and > fedora-marketing-list to field the opinions of all who this most > immediately concerns. For those of you who subscribe to both, I > apologize for the duplication. Further discussion should probably be > directed at fedora-marketing-list. > > -- > Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes > nman64 at n-man.com > > www.n-man.com > -- > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Jul 31 09:22:00 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 04:22:00 -0500 Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) In-Reply-To: <7f617d27050731001065884e18@mail.gmail.com> References: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> <7f617d27050731001065884e18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42EC9838.7060001@n-man.com> Alex Maier wrote: >Doesn't this section already provide the information you are talking about? >http://fedora.redhat.com/download/vendors.html > >However, I think it would make sense to duplicate this information in the Wiki. >a > >On 7/31/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > >>I wanted to throw out the idea of setting up a spot on the wiki to >>provide information about distribution of Fedora, particularly expanding >>upon information for distributors. At current, there are no >>readily-available guidelines for OEM companies who are interested in >>distributing Fedora Core. There also isn't much information for >>companies interested in preparing and selling Fedora in packaged forms. >>Working for an OEM vendor, I know this kind of thing is sought after. I >>would like to change things. >> >>I propose http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution be used to provide >>information about obtaining and distributing Fedora Core. I would like >>it to be a resource for both companies and end users. For companies, it >>can provide guides and guidelines for the legal distribution of Fedora >>Core in assorted media formats, including pre-installed systems. For >>the end user, it can provide information on how to properly obtain, >>install, or upgrade Fedora Core, including how to find vendors locally >>or online. It would be nice to provide a page to list local vendors. >>Currently, the vendor list at f.r.c is limited to online vendors. >> >>At least for now, this section would largely be linking to the disparate >>resources on f.r.c and in the wiki. This section could be linked with >>the Fedora Marketing Project, and with smaller projects like the LiveCD >>effort. It could provide a central point to tie these various aspects >>of Fedora distribution together. It might be nice to back this effort >>up with a mailing list et al. Providing a framework for vendors to >>introduce themselves and request listings would be a must. >> >>I'd love any feedback on this idea. If there are no real objections, >>I'd love to get this started. >> >>I've sent this message to both fedora-devel-list and >>fedora-marketing-list to field the opinions of all who this most >>immediately concerns. For those of you who subscribe to both, I >>apologize for the duplication. Further discussion should probably be >>directed at fedora-marketing-list. >> >>-- >>Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes >>nman64 at n-man.com >> >>www.n-man.com >>-- >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >>Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >> >> >> >> >> > > > > The URL you pointed out provides only very limited information, and lists only online vendors. It is far from the kind of comprehensive information often sought by OEM distributors and local vendors. My goal is not to duplicate the information that is already available, my goal is to add to it and to interconnect the variety of resources related to the project's distribution. The best example of a similar project that I am aware of is the OpenOffice.org distribution information. The idea is to provide more extensive support to vendors, and to bring vendors and users together. Providing consistency among vendors with regard to Fedora will help build Fedora's name and reputation, as well as provide greater ease and less confusion for users. My ideas also extend beyond just distributors, as I would like to also connect users to information regarding the various ways they can get Fedora. It would be nice to provide one clear source for information on obtaining Fedora, no matter what media the person is after. A person might visit the site thinking the only way they can get Fedora is by downloading ISO images. Upon arriving at the site, they could be presented with options to purchase CDs online, find a local distributor, learn about efforts like the LiveCD project, use BitTorrent, or even conducting Internet or network installations after downloading just a small ISO image. The idea is about bringing the information together, and expanding with information that might not yet be written, or which might only be available to those who can read through mountains of technical information to get the job done. The overall goal is to provide a unified source of information for the many ways one can procure Fedora, and what options one has when redistributing Fedora, as well as best practices and common pitfalls in doing so. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 12:48:52 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:48:52 -0400 Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) In-Reply-To: <42EC9838.7060001@n-man.com> References: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> <7f617d27050731001065884e18@mail.gmail.com> <42EC9838.7060001@n-man.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050731054842572496@mail.gmail.com> On 7/31/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > The URL you pointed out provides only very limited information, and > lists only online vendors. It is far from the kind of comprehensive > information often sought by OEM distributors and local vendors. So let me get this straight... you want a fedora website, to list business information about distributors who have absolutely no online information? I'm not sure that makes a hell of a lot of sense. It's very easy to get a static url hosted somewhere with contact information. What are you going to suggest instead of a url... the street address? "Fedora Core Cds $5, Joe's Apartment, E. 128th St. NYC" But first things first... show me an example of a distributor who is selling fedora install media who has absolutely no contact information on the web. Let's see if we can't get them on the exist list instead of inventing a new list. I think you are making some assumptions about how flexible the existing vendor list is. Perhaps when the list was created noone gave a thought to url-less distributors because quite frankly it seems very logical that someone who was distributing fedora would have a url, advertising they were distributing fedora. So just give me one example of a local distributor that has no contant url, and we can work from there to get them listed. > It would be nice to provide one clear source for information on > obtaining Fedora, no matter what media the person is after. A person > might visit the site thinking the only way they can get Fedora is by > downloading ISO images. Upon arriving at the site, they could be > presented with options to purchase CDs online, find a local distributor, > learn about efforts like the LiveCD project, use BitTorrent, or even > conducting Internet or network installations after downloading just a > small ISO image. pretty sure there is going to be some disagreement as to whether or not its worthwhile to recommend inexperienced users to attempt to do an internet install. While it is technically possible, it also has additional risks due to volatility of the network.... doubly so during release week when the mirrors are hammered. I don't see any advantage in encouraging novice users into attempting an install method that we know runs a higher risk of undiagnosable problems. Network installs from a local network are covered in the install guide I believe. And how about we hold off on talking about the livecd until we actually have a livecd. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Sun Jul 31 13:31:02 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) In-Reply-To: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> References: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I wanted to throw out the idea of setting up a spot on the wiki to > provide information about distribution of Fedora, particularly expanding > upon information for distributors. At current, there are no > readily-available guidelines for OEM companies who are interested in > distributing Fedora Core. Here's how I suggest you proceed: 1. Read the trademark guidelines at: http://fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/ 2. Tell us what questions these guidelines don't answer. 3. Wait for us to revise the guidelines. Lather, rinse, repeat. If you're looking to make a HOWTO on the wiki for people to ship Fedora themselves, I'd say, go ahead and start working on it -- but make sure that you understand the trademark guidelines and adhere rigorously to them. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Jul 31 16:58:18 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:58:18 -0500 Subject: Fedora Vendor/Distribution Information (Wiki/Project idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050731054842572496@mail.gmail.com> References: <42EC1FB6.2050707@n-man.com> <7f617d27050731001065884e18@mail.gmail.com> <42EC9838.7060001@n-man.com> <604aa791050731054842572496@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42ED032A.6090400@n-man.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On 7/31/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > >>The URL you pointed out provides only very limited information, and >>lists only online vendors. It is far from the kind of comprehensive >>information often sought by OEM distributors and local vendors. >> >> > >So let me get this straight... you want a fedora website, to list >business information about distributors who have absolutely no online >information? I'm not sure that makes a hell of a lot of sense. It's >very easy to get a static url hosted somewhere with contact >information. What are you going to suggest instead of a url... the >street address? "Fedora Core Cds $5, Joe's Apartment, E. 128th St. >NYC" But first things first... show me an example of a distributor >who is selling fedora install media who has absolutely no contact >information on the web. Let's see if we can't get them on the exist >list instead of inventing a new list. I think you are making some >assumptions about how flexible the existing vendor list is. Perhaps >when the list was created noone gave a thought to url-less >distributors because quite frankly it seems very logical that someone >who was distributing fedora would have a url, advertising they were >distributing fedora. So just give me one example of a local >distributor that has no contant url, and we can work from there to get >them listed. > > > > >>It would be nice to provide one clear source for information on >>obtaining Fedora, no matter what media the person is after. A person >>might visit the site thinking the only way they can get Fedora is by >>downloading ISO images. Upon arriving at the site, they could be >>presented with options to purchase CDs online, find a local distributor, >>learn about efforts like the LiveCD project, use BitTorrent, or even >>conducting Internet or network installations after downloading just a >>small ISO image. >> >> > >pretty sure there is going to be some disagreement as to whether or >not its worthwhile to recommend inexperienced users to attempt to do >an internet install. While it is technically possible, it also has >additional risks due to volatility of the network.... doubly so during >release week when the mirrors are hammered. I don't see any advantage >in encouraging novice users into attempting an install method that we >know runs a higher risk of undiagnosable problems. Network installs >from a local network are covered in the install guide I believe. And >how about we hold off on talking about the livecd until we actually >have a livecd. > >-jef > >-- >Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > The vendor listing that is currently up doesn't list local distributors that you can potentially drive to in order to purchase media. It lists only vendors who sell and ship Fedora online. I do not want to list just anyone who says they'll provide Fedora CDs, but I would like to provide people with a listing of places where they can actually physically go to and pick up a copy of Fedora, as well as potentially find local support or someone who will sell them a system with Fedora pre-installed. I would say that a web presence is still required, but a vendor might not necessarily sell Fedora online and ship CDs. It would be nice just to provide these kinds of information to people. I would personally love to know what computer shops in my area I can visit and expect to find Fedora at. Even better would be a local shop selling other Fedora-related merchandise. I'd love to pick up a mug and a good book while I'm at it. As far as recommending Internet installs, I am not saying this could only cater to inexperienced users. It would just be detailing the numerous ways one can acquire and install Fedora. Even a talented user might not be aware of just how many ways Fedora can be installed, and in some cases an Internet install is just what someone needs. The idea is to make sure people are aware of their options. As far as talking about the LiveCD, that's just me thinking of the future. If you really want a better idea of what I am thinking, check out what OpenOffice.org has. It is pretty close to what I have in mind. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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