From cnegus at mwt.net Wed Jun 1 14:44:30 2005 From: cnegus at mwt.net (Chris Negus) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:44:30 -0500 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117637070.3515.68.camel@waldo> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 17:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > As Fedora continues to become more and more real, it's clearly time to > figure out what role the Fedora marketing team needs to play. There will, > of course, be some issues to be negotiated around what the Fedora > marketing team can and cannot do based on Red Hat policy -- but: > a. There's plenty of things that a Fedora marketing team *can* do, now; > b. Fedora marketing should be pushing Red Hat to help define those limits. I'd like to offer my help. I certainly don't have a good feel for the total scope of what Fedora marketing should be doing. However, I was thinking recently about gathering up information on: * What Fedora is * When Fedora is appropriate as opposed to RHEL * How can someone get involved with the project: As someone using Fedora (user, admin, programmer) As someone packaging their software for Fedora As someone who has other skills to offer (writer, marketer, etc.) By putting this together in the form of a presentation, I was thinking that it would help us all sing from the same sheet music (so to speak). Also, busy people wouldn't have to start from scratch if they just wanted to give a talk on Fedora to the local LUG. I also think that it's possible to have a story about what Fedora is that is respectful of Red Hat Inc. and Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Clarity will help everyone, I believe. Thoughts? -- Chris Negus From jdarton at ibigroup.com Wed Jun 1 19:35:18 2005 From: jdarton at ibigroup.com (Jonathan Darton) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:35:18 -0600 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <20050601184553.9A52873E90@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <003301c566e1$0b9472c0$f228780a@ibigroupcalgary.com> I think it might be useful to have case studies or testimonials from users about how they use Fedora. This might help people understand the project and its potential to be used in various ways. And of course more users = more potential contributors to the project. :) Just a thought! -Jonathan Darton -----Original Message----- From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of fedora-marketing-list-request at redhat.com Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:46 PM To: fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1 Send Fedora-marketing-list mailing list submissions to fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to fedora-marketing-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at fedora-marketing-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Fedora-marketing-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Getting down to business (Greg DeKoenigsberg) 2. Re: Getting down to business (Chris Negus) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:05:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Greg DeKoenigsberg Subject: Getting down to business To: Fedora Marketing List Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Folks, As Fedora continues to become more and more real, it's clearly time to figure out what role the Fedora marketing team needs to play. There will, of course, be some issues to be negotiated around what the Fedora marketing team can and cannot do based on Red Hat policy -- but: a. There's plenty of things that a Fedora marketing team *can* do, now; b. Fedora marketing should be pushing Red Hat to help define those limits. So. Since Colin Charles is the owner of this list and one of its originators, I've asked him to start putting together the pieces, to make Fedora marketing its own project. Good luck, Colin. Take us to the promised land. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan Red Hat Summit ] [ New Orleans ] [ Learn. Network. Experience Open Source. June 1/2/3 2005 ] [ (And Make Your Boss Pay For It.) [ http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:44:30 -0500 From: Chris Negus Subject: Re: Getting down to business To: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base Message-ID: <1117637070.3515.68.camel at waldo> Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 17:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > As Fedora continues to become more and more real, it's clearly time to > figure out what role the Fedora marketing team needs to play. There will, > of course, be some issues to be negotiated around what the Fedora > marketing team can and cannot do based on Red Hat policy -- but: > a. There's plenty of things that a Fedora marketing team *can* do, now; > b. Fedora marketing should be pushing Red Hat to help define those limits. I'd like to offer my help. I certainly don't have a good feel for the total scope of what Fedora marketing should be doing. However, I was thinking recently about gathering up information on: * What Fedora is * When Fedora is appropriate as opposed to RHEL * How can someone get involved with the project: As someone using Fedora (user, admin, programmer) As someone packaging their software for Fedora As someone who has other skills to offer (writer, marketer, etc.) By putting this together in the form of a presentation, I was thinking that it would help us all sing from the same sheet music (so to speak). Also, busy people wouldn't have to start from scratch if they just wanted to give a talk on Fedora to the local LUG. I also think that it's possible to have a story about what Fedora is that is respectful of Red Hat Inc. and Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Clarity will help everyone, I believe. Thoughts? -- Chris Negus ------------------------------ -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list End of Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 12, Issue 1 **************************************************** From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Wed Jun 1 20:25:31 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:25:31 -0400 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 17:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Folks, > > As Fedora continues to become more and more real, it's clearly time to > figure out what role the Fedora marketing team needs to play. There will, > of course, be some issues to be negotiated around what the Fedora > marketing team can and cannot do based on Red Hat policy -- but: > > a. There's plenty of things that a Fedora marketing team *can* do, now; > b. Fedora marketing should be pushing Red Hat to help define those limits. Hey, First of all I would like to say that it has been a great pleasure working with Colin over the past few months, and I know that his strong vision and leadership will help make the most out of the marketing project. The one suggestion I have right now is, and I've spoken to the RH videographer about this, perhaps the time has come to make a Fedora Project video, similar to the videos Red Hat has up on the site now about a variety of topics, such as truth happens. The suggestion actually came from the videographer, and he stated that although Fedora is crucial to RH, not too much open marketing like that is done. I don't think it would hurt, especially given the new videography intern to try and get something like this done. Anyone agree? Jack From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 1 23:29:15 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:29:15 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <1117668555.29735.154.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 16:25 -0400, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > The one suggestion I have right now is, and I've spoken to the RH > videographer about this, perhaps the time has come to make a Fedora > Project video, similar to the videos Red Hat has up on the site now > about a variety of topics, such as truth happens. The suggestion > actually came from the videographer, and he stated that although Fedora > is crucial to RH, not too much open marketing like that is done. I > don't think it would hurt, especially given the new videography intern > to try and get something like this done. Anyone agree? As a person who has seen what these videographers can do when allowed to get creative, I say, let them go to it! Open marketing. Hmm. I wonder what that really means? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 2 06:56:26 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:26:26 +0530 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117668555.29735.154.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117668555.29735.154.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <429EAD9A.5040403@redhat.com> Hi >As a person who has seen what these videographers can do when allowed to >get creative, I say, let them go to it! > >Open marketing. Hmm. I wonder what that really means? > >- Karsten > > Probably means a open mailing list such as this one rather than behind the scenes work to promote a project. Red Hat traditionally has been more of a doer than a talker but I think its time we talked loudly now ;-) regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 2 11:32:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:02:07 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 3: Cruising The Bleeding Edge Message-ID: <429EEE37.90703@redhat.com> Hi I came across your review of Fedora Core 3 ( http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/5670/1/). I would like point out that your characterisation of Fedora Project as "This is the playground for Red Hat engineers and random volunteer developers to go nuts and try out wacky new things, and users get to play along" is entirely inaccurate. * Fedora Projects has a core as well as extras repository both of which has a publicly accessible revision control system at http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/ * Fedora core is entirely maintained by Red Hat developers * Fedora Extras is a repository of contributors who package software that is developed in sync with Fedora core While Fedora project is intended to less conservative than Red Hat Enterprise Linux and have a faster release cycle, it is certainly not a "lets get crazy" thing . Packaging in both core and extras goes through a good amount of QA before releases. some of the bugs like the udev one in the Fedora Core 3 release are unfortunate and should be avoided but thats not a result of developers being "wacky". Moving on to the next parts, I appreciate your recommendation to read the release notes. This is something users frequently miss out. Linking to the release notes within your review would have been a good idea too. "A heavily-patched 2.6.9 kernel (currently 2.6.9-1.667). Note that Red Hat always modifies kernels extensively; this is not unusual." Dave Jones, the Kernel maintainer for Fedora has provided the following links which explain these patches. Fedora Core 3- http://people.redhat.com/davej/patchlist-fc3.txt Development tree - http://people.redhat.com/davej/patchlist-rawhide.txt As you can see for yourself the patches are minor and necessary. Fedora Project has a goal of staying close to upstream as much as possible however Fedora releases are time based while the upstream kernel development releases are not and hence some of the patches that fixes important things are available in Fedora kernel till it gets merged upstream in the subsequent releases. Adding patches is a maintainance issue and developers prefer not to do that within reasonable limitations so an extensive amount of patches are not scalable as well as unusual for any package in Fedora. On services running unecessarily, some of these including the pcmcia services running unnecessarily on a desktop system has been fixed in the development tree. More works needs to be done on that area. You have mentioned that a GNOME menu editor is not available in Fedora Core 3. While this is not a Fedora specific issue, I consider it a important one neverthless, Smeg (http://www.realistanew.com/projects/smeg/) is currently under review (https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-May/msg01107.html) for packaging in Fedora Extras repository (enabled by default in Fedora Core 4) hopefully alleviates this problem to a extend till we get a menu editor as part of GNOME 2.12 (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-May/msg00232.htm) Thank you for taking the time to review a Fedora release. regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 2 13:27:40 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:27:40 +1000 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117718861.3151.301.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 17:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > As Fedora continues to become more and more real, it's clearly time to > figure out what role the Fedora marketing team needs to play. There will, > of course, be some issues to be negotiated around what the Fedora > marketing team can and cannot do based on Red Hat policy -- but: > > a. There's plenty of things that a Fedora marketing team *can* do, now; > b. Fedora marketing should be pushing Red Hat to help define those limits. > > So. Since Colin Charles is the owner of this list and one of its > originators, I've asked him to start putting together the pieces, to make > Fedora marketing its own project. Yes, manifesto time > Good luck, Colin. Take us to the promised land. :) Since our quick conversation to now, there wasn't much room for it. But hey, I'm pumped to take this to the next level -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 2 13:34:30 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:34:30 +1000 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <003301c566e1$0b9472c0$f228780a@ibigroupcalgary.com> References: <003301c566e1$0b9472c0$f228780a@ibigroupcalgary.com> Message-ID: <1117719271.3151.306.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 13:35 -0600, Jonathan Darton wrote: > I think it might be useful to have case studies or testimonials from > users > about how they use Fedora. This might help people understand the > project and > its potential to be used in various ways. And of course more users = > more > potential contributors to the project. :) Very good idea. We have this running at the OpenOffice.org team (bizdev/marketing.openoffice.org)... We have to be rather careful (and yes, this means Greg & I have to talk further) when doing this though - because we don't want to thread on RHEL waters too much Sorry, don't quite have a direct link (its in IZ somewhere, if anyone's interested). Will be part of the larger marketing manifesto that I plan on writing something this weekend, while I sit on a boring plane, for oh, about 18 hours -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Jun 3 07:19:51 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:19:51 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117637070.3515.68.camel@waldo> References: <1117637070.3515.68.camel@waldo> Message-ID: <1117783192.2804.16.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 09:44 -0500, Chris Negus wrote: > I'd like to offer my help. Hi Chris! Help is always welcome. > I certainly don't have a good feel for the > total scope of what Fedora marketing should be doing. I don't really think any of us do, we're making it up as we go along. It's fun! > However, I was > thinking recently about gathering up information on: > > * What Fedora is > * When Fedora is appropriate as opposed to RHEL > * How can someone get involved with the project: > As someone using Fedora (user, admin, programmer) > As someone packaging their software for Fedora > As someone who has other skills to offer (writer, marketer, etc.) > > By putting this together in the form of a presentation, I was thinking > that it would help us all sing from the same sheet music (so to > speak). > Also, busy people wouldn't have to start from scratch if they just > wanted to give a talk on Fedora to the local LUG. This would be totally awesome! A pre-built media pack if you will, sanctioned by Red Hat folks and Fedora community as well. I think this would be very very nifty! > I also think that it's possible to have a story about what Fedora is > that is respectful of Red Hat Inc. and Red Hat Enterprise Linux. > Clarity > will help everyone, I believe. Thoughts? Please let us know what you would need in order to get started on this. Even though I'm not with Red Hat, I'm almost positive that this word would not go unused or unnoticed. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Jun 3 07:26:08 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:26:08 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 16:25 -0400, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > I > don't think it would hurt, especially given the new videography intern > to try and get something like this done. Anyone agree? I agree. Perhaps also some footage of the possible up coming FUDConIII would be cool. Maybe almost a docufilm on the planning and prepping going into it, and the mad rush the day OF it getting everything going. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From lxmaier at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 16:24:41 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:24:41 +0200 Subject: FUDCon II Promo suggestion Message-ID: <7f617d2705060409241d948a6@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone! We have been receiving some registrations, but would like to drive still more! I would like to suggest to those of you willing to promote FUDCon 2 to add this (or similar) text to your signature: FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ All who register before showing up will get official Fedora gear :) Also, please support FUDCon by letting your friends know about it. Thanks a lot, Alex -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jun 4 19:28:27 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 05:28:27 +1000 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 00:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > I > > don't think it would hurt, especially given the new videography > intern > > to try and get something like this done. Anyone agree? > > I agree. Perhaps also some footage of the possible up coming > FUDConIII > would be cool. Maybe almost a docufilm on the planning and prepping > going into it, and the mad rush the day OF it getting everything > going. Yes, as long as it doesn't have to be spot, jack, or me ;-) That aside, I think we should make sure that *all* FUDCon's are recorded. Even if they're not pressed to DVD, they ought to be available on the torrent tracker, as per FUDCon I CC'ing Alex, to make sure that FUDCon II gets recorded well -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jkeating at j2solutions.net Sun Jun 5 05:41:18 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:41:18 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 05:28 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > Yes, as long as it doesn't have to be spot, jack, or me ;-) Well thats just the thing. You guys are some of the core people getting it done, and it would be rather interesting to have a camera somewhat following you around the day or two leading up to the Con, and during the Con itself. If I was able to have a more active role in pulling it off, I would have no problem being filmed while doing it. > That aside, I think we should make sure that *all* FUDCon's are > recorded. Even if they're not pressed to DVD, they ought to be > available > on the torrent tracker, as per FUDCon I > > CC'ing Alex, to make sure that FUDCon II gets recorded well Right, sessions at least need to be filmed, but I'd like to see more footage of the signups, the common areas, random attendee statements and all kinds of other stuff like that. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sun Jun 5 23:55:49 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:55:49 -0400 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 03:39 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I have been looking over the many Fedora-related sites and gathering > information about what is out there and how it is organized. I have > been trying to determine what really needs improvement and how that > improvement can be achieved. I had some thoughts relating to > http://fedoraproject.org and posted them to fedora-docs-list, and it was > suggested that I send them here (fedora-marketing-list) instead. I have > also sent this message to Seth Vidal. Below is an excerpt from my > original post: > > I'm not sure how many people actually use this base URL, but it needs > some loving. > > One idea that I had is that this URL could redirect to > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ and that the Wiki's front page could > feature all of the existing links, with a brief description. This would > allow easier maintenance, and would automagically make the page more > useful. > > With Red Hat announcing the creation of The Fedora Foundation, it seems > like Fedora's information will eventually move away from > fedora.redhat.com to its own domain. I don't know if this would be > fedoraproject.org or something entirely different. If the migration is > to fedoraproject.org, then my above suggestion would not create any > problems. Simply removing the redirect and dropping content similar to > fedora.redhat.com would be acceptable. The Wiki and the rest of the > fedoraproject.org hierarchy would not conflict with the content > currently at fedora.redhat.com, and links could be added to whatever > main page is at the base URL to direct people to the current > fedoraproject.org content. If anyone needs any clarification on my > thinking, drop me a line. Here's what I think: I agree with you about the fedoraproject.org page needing to be more useful. Put together a prototype for the front page. I think doing it all exclusively in the wiki will result in a fairly ugly webpage but I'm open to give it a try. Set yourself up a wiki account, I'll give you privs to change a page and you make a 'newfrontpage' page and we'll work from there to see if it works. It's a good place to start and if it all looks well I'll do the leg work to turn it into the main page. sound cool? -sv From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Jun 6 00:46:05 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:46:05 -0500 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42A39CCD.2000701@n-man.com> seth vidal wrote: >On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 03:39 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > >>I have been looking over the many Fedora-related sites and gathering >>information about what is out there and how it is organized. I have >>been trying to determine what really needs improvement and how that >>improvement can be achieved. I had some thoughts relating to >>http://fedoraproject.org and posted them to fedora-docs-list, and it was >>suggested that I send them here (fedora-marketing-list) instead. I have >>also sent this message to Seth Vidal. Below is an excerpt from my >>original post: >> >>I'm not sure how many people actually use this base URL, but it needs >>some loving. >> >>One idea that I had is that this URL could redirect to >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ and that the Wiki's front page could >>feature all of the existing links, with a brief description. This would >>allow easier maintenance, and would automagically make the page more >>useful. >> >>With Red Hat announcing the creation of The Fedora Foundation, it seems >>like Fedora's information will eventually move away from >>fedora.redhat.com to its own domain. I don't know if this would be >>fedoraproject.org or something entirely different. If the migration is >>to fedoraproject.org, then my above suggestion would not create any >>problems. Simply removing the redirect and dropping content similar to >>fedora.redhat.com would be acceptable. The Wiki and the rest of the >>fedoraproject.org hierarchy would not conflict with the content >>currently at fedora.redhat.com, and links could be added to whatever >>main page is at the base URL to direct people to the current >>fedoraproject.org content. If anyone needs any clarification on my >>thinking, drop me a line. >> >> > > >Here's what I think: > I agree with you about the fedoraproject.org page needing to be more >useful. > > Put together a prototype for the front page. I think doing it all >exclusively in the wiki will result in a fairly ugly webpage but I'm >open to give it a try. > >Set yourself up a wiki account, I'll give you privs to change a page and >you make a 'newfrontpage' page and we'll work from there to see if it >works. > >It's a good place to start and if it all looks well I'll do the leg work >to turn it into the main page. > >sound cool? > >-sv > > > Sounds good to me. My wiki account is PatrickBarnes. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jun 5 07:30:25 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:30:25 -0700 Subject: Red Hat Summit at New Orleans writeup Message-ID: <1117956625.3151.537.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> This was rather useful reading: http://fedoranews.org/blog/?p=710 Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jun 5 07:31:32 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 00:31:32 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <1117956692.3151.539.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 22:41 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > CC'ing Alex, to make sure that FUDCon II gets recorded well > > Right, sessions at least need to be filmed, but I'd like to see more > footage of the signups, the common areas, random attendee statements > and > all kinds of other stuff like that. Noted. Something like what Greg did for red hat magazine. We'll get to this, I'm sure -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jun 5 12:45:39 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 05:45:39 -0700 Subject: package submission policy question In-Reply-To: <20050602132824.GA15703@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1117567758.4072.73.camel@laptop.mpeters.local> <1117669182.1988.80.camel@mccallum.corsepiu.local> <1117684340.2702.6.camel@cutter> <1117717829.2702.38.camel@cutter> <20050602132824.GA15703@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1117975540.25131.8.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 09:28 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > I really like the idea have having short Linux/Fedora tips as the > default > fortune content. (And am all good with dropping the rest from the > default > package.) But that'd be a Project for someone. Ala, what FreeBSD has? Hmm, that would be rather useful, yes Punting down to fedora-marketing -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From fedora at leemhuis.info Mon Jun 6 05:23:16 2005 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:23:16 +0200 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Am Sonntag, den 05.06.2005, 19:55 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 03:39 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > Here's what I think: > I agree with you about the fedoraproject.org page needing to be more > useful. BTW, I started a FAQ page there because I think we should have one: http://www.fedoraproject.com/wiki/FAQ Currently it only links to a updated Version of "Hardware Problems" from davej. > Set yourself up a wiki account, I'll give you privs to change a page and > you make a 'newfrontpage' page and we'll work from there to see if it > works. Do we really need this "edit to the EditGroup" step -- Isn't that counter-productive in a wiki? Okay, maybe we need this for some pages. But not for all. And yes, It helps against spammers. But can I add everyone to the EditGroup who asks for access? This is not specified. In the beginning only hand selected people got access (at least I had to find a sponsor who knew me with a gpg signed mail etc.) -- now it seems everyone who asks for access gets it. CU thl From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 6 05:28:51 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:28:51 -0400 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Message-ID: <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> > BTW, I started a FAQ page there because I think we should have one: > > http://www.fedoraproject.com/wiki/FAQ great. > > Set yourself up a wiki account, I'll give you privs to change a page and > > you make a 'newfrontpage' page and we'll work from there to see if it > > works. > > Do we really need this "edit to the EditGroup" step -- Isn't that > counter-productive in a wiki? Okay, maybe we need this for some pages. > But not for all. And yes, It helps against spammers. LOTS AND LOTS OF SPAMMERS does it avoid. So yes, it stays, unless you are volunteering to purge out any cruft that gets added there. :) > But can I add everyone to the EditGroup who asks for access? This is not > specified. In the beginning only hand selected people got access (at > least I had to find a sponsor who knew me with a gpg signed mail etc.) > -- now it seems everyone who asks for access gets it. What I'd like to do is setup multiple groups and show everyone how to use the acls. But even before that I'd love to get someone who has some skill with stylesheets to design a better wiki theme than the one we're using. Maybe one more 'fedoraish'. Who should I talk to about that? Dianna Fong? -sv From fedora at leemhuis.info Mon Jun 6 05:39:24 2005 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:39:24 +0200 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1118036365.4991.31.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Am Montag, den 06.06.2005, 01:28 -0400 schrieb seth vidal: > > But can I add everyone to the EditGroup who asks for access? This is not > > specified. In the beginning only hand selected people got access (at > > least I had to find a sponsor who knew me with a gpg signed mail etc.) > > -- now it seems everyone who asks for access gets it. > > What I'd like to do is setup multiple groups and show everyone how to > use the acls. What I'd like is a statement "Yes, everyone can get access here -- we're not a closed development group, we just want to avoid spammers" (or something like that) on the FrontPage after "In order to help in the editing you must first setup an account by going to UserPreferences. After that, inform someone within the EditGroup, so that they can add you." BTW, the new layout is a lot better than before. thx skvidal! CU thl From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 6 05:43:12 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:43:12 -0400 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118036365.4991.31.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> <1118036365.4991.31.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Message-ID: <1118036592.19379.69.camel@cutter> > What I'd like is a statement "Yes, everyone can get access here -- we're > not a closed development group, we just want to avoid spammers" (or > something like that) on the FrontPage after "In order to help in the > editing you must first setup an account by going to UserPreferences. > After that, inform someone within the EditGroup, so that they can add > you." I don't have a problem with that but there are going to be some pages which are, in fact, closed off. I think that's reasonable, actually. > BTW, the new layout is a lot better than before. thx skvidal! yah - moin 1.3.4 looks to be a lot nicer, we'll see what I messed up. :) -sv From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Jun 6 07:24:21 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 02:24:21 -0500 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118036592.19379.69.camel@cutter> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> <1118036365.4991.31.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118036592.19379.69.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42A3FA25.2080007@n-man.com> seth vidal wrote: >>What I'd like is a statement "Yes, everyone can get access here -- we're >>not a closed development group, we just want to avoid spammers" (or >>something like that) on the FrontPage after "In order to help in the >>editing you must first setup an account by going to UserPreferences. >>After that, inform someone within the EditGroup, so that they can add >>you." >> >> > >I don't have a problem with that but there are going to be some pages >which are, in fact, closed off. I think that's reasonable, actually. > > > See if this sounds like a suitable introduction for the FrontPage: -- Welcome to the [http://fedora.redhat.com/ Fedora] Project Wiki. The purpose of this wiki is to provide a resource for Fedora Developers and Users to share information and work together on plans. Want to help? We welcome new editors, but we must take a few precautions to maintain the integrity of the wiki. In order to help in the editing you must first setup an account by going to [wiki:UserPreferences UserPreferences]. After that, inform someone within the [wiki:EditGroup EditGroup] so that they can add you. It also wouldn't hurt to [wiki:Extras/Introduction introduce yourself]. -- -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Jun 6 18:54:05 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:24:05 +0530 Subject: Fedora Goals Message-ID: <42A49BCD.1040104@redhat.com> Hi We now have a roadmap page that describes project goals for Fedora Core 5. More information should be added about other major things like say the SELinux MLS plans or the per user /tmp work , under a security overview (potentially reorganised into layers ) depending on the amount of indepth details that could be provided. Its a wiki page so everyone including developers working on the major sub systems could pitch in with their ideas and comments there. http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC5Future If there are things that is planned for the next release or split up across versions , new "future" pages for FC5+x could be added to the wiki. This is just a broad overview of things that is planned to be done and not necessarily core stuff or code related. If there isnt enough to time to complete it within the current release, one could always push it to the next one. It would help the community understand the plans and serve as a work list for developers. Thanks to everyone who worked on this regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Jun 7 03:16:38 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:16:38 -0700 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1118114198.25131.213.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 01:28 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > But even before that I'd love to get someone who has some skill with > stylesheets to design a better wiki theme than the one we're using. > Maybe one more 'fedoraish'. > > Who should I talk to about that? Dianna Fong? She'd be the right person - Diana Fong Though let's check up with her and see how her workload is going -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Tue Jun 7 19:53:44 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:53:44 -0400 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 22:41 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 05:28 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > Yes, as long as it doesn't have to be spot, jack, or me ;-) > > Well thats just the thing. You guys are some of the core people getting > it done, and it would be rather interesting to have a camera somewhat > following you around the day or two leading up to the Con, and during > the Con itself. If I was able to have a more active role in pulling it > off, I would have no problem being filmed while doing it. > I would be willing to work on it if you are willing to send me to germany. Here's an idea, theres a new intern for videography, maybe him and I can go there and do a little docufilm? Especially now that the foundation is forthcoming, we seriously need to ramp up our promotion and mindshare strategies. Jack From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 7 21:52:46 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:52:46 -0700 Subject: grokking the FF Message-ID: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> That's Fedora Foundation, not the Fantastic Four(TM). I think a great first formal mission for this group is to understand (to grok) the FF and explain to everyone what it is about. The FF is not yet understood by these groups: * Developers inside and outside of Red Hat * The community at large * "Just" end-users There are at least three marketing messages I see there. I'd like to suggest that the legal people working on the FF creation use the Fedora Marketing Project as a mouthpiece. Do the work here first to help people understand, and let us help distribute the understanding. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Tue Jun 7 23:45:29 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:45:29 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 14:52 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > That's Fedora Foundation, not the Fantastic Four(TM). > > I think a great first formal mission for this group is to understand (to > grok) the FF and explain to everyone what it is about. > > The FF is not yet understood by these groups: > > * Developers inside and outside of Red Hat > * The community at large > * "Just" end-users Nothing is understood because there is no information yet. Personally, I think the announcement was made prematurely. Then again, I really have no idea if it was, since we don't know how much has or has not been done or decided. > I'd like to suggest that the legal people working on the FF creation use > the Fedora Marketing Project as a mouthpiece. Although I don't think we will be operating under the auspices of Fedora Marketing Project. It will more likely be the marketing division of the Foundation. > Do the work here first to > help people understand, and let us help distribute the understanding. Nod. Multiple times over. Jack From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Jun 7 23:54:56 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:54:56 -0700 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 19:45 -0400, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > Nothing is understood because there is no information yet. > Personally, > I think the announcement was made prematurely. Then again, I really > have no idea if it was, since we don't know how much has or has not > been > done or decided. Or instead of saying 'There is now a Fedora is being transferred to the Fedora Foundation', what should have been said was 'We are working to create a Foundation to transfer Fedora to'. That way we aren't totally surprised when the transfer happens and claim that we weren't warned.... > > I'd like to suggest that the legal people working on the FF creation > use > > the Fedora Marketing Project as a mouthpiece. > > Although I don't think we will be operating under the auspices of > Fedora > Marketing Project. It will more likely be the marketing division of > the > Foundation. Either way, I think the MORE information made public here, the BETTER. We have an opportunity to un-black a lot of eyes by being nice and verbose, can we take advantage of it? Pretty please? > > Do the work here first to > > help people understand, and let us help distribute the > understanding. > > Nod. Multiple times over. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 00:06:45 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:06:45 +0200 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f617d2705060717062f62a2e9@mail.gmail.com> >From how I understand it, Red Hat annonced the intent to make Fedora a self-governed Foundation. No bylaws etc have been even drafted yet, and so the Fedora folks will be involved in the making of the FF. a On 6/8/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 19:45 -0400, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > > Nothing is understood because there is no information yet. > > Personally, > > I think the announcement was made prematurely. Then again, I really > > have no idea if it was, since we don't know how much has or has not > > been > > done or decided. > > Or instead of saying 'There is now a Fedora is being transferred to the > Fedora Foundation', what should have been said was 'We are working to > create a Foundation to transfer Fedora to'. That way we aren't totally > surprised when the transfer happens and claim that we weren't warned.... > > > > I'd like to suggest that the legal people working on the FF creation > > use > > > the Fedora Marketing Project as a mouthpiece. > > > > Although I don't think we will be operating under the auspices of > > Fedora > > Marketing Project. It will more likely be the marketing division of > > the > > Foundation. > > Either way, I think the MORE information made public here, the BETTER. > We have an opportunity to un-black a lot of eyes by being nice and > verbose, can we take advantage of it? Pretty please? > > > > Do the work here first to > > > help people understand, and let us help distribute the > > understanding. > > > > Nod. Multiple times over. > -- > Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) > Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) > GPG Public Key > (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) > > Was I helpful? Let others know: > http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating > > > BodyID:20067465.2.n.logpart (stored separately) > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 8 00:35:08 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:35:08 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> > Either way, I think the MORE information made public here, the BETTER. > We have an opportunity to un-black a lot of eyes by being nice and > verbose, can we take advantage of it? Pretty please? > I've got $10 that says that won't happen. -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 01:14:28 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:14:28 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/05, seth vidal wrote: > I've got $10 that says that won't happen. They did a decent job having information available ready to roll at the directory service annoucement. A few people learned from previous badly timed unsubstantiated 'announcements' and made sure there a mountain of information about the directory server project. The people responsible for making that project launch..informative.. should be held up HIGH to the rest of the hat wearing inmates. I'm almost so excited about the amount of information that was made available for that server project on annoucement day.. i could give the people responsible a big wet kiss on the mouth. Unless of course they are the same people who were responsibly for not having any information available about the Foundation in which case I'll have to give them a swift kick in the arse as well. Making official statements to the technical press... without additional followup information for the community to look at.. is a garunteed way to burn bridges and inspire rampant fear-mongering or if your lucky a just a new crusty layer of apathy. Who do i send the horse head to? -jef From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 03:39:19 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:39:19 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> Maybe Red Hat would rather announce the intent, and *then* move to create the Foundation with appropriate involvement from the community, than go off and make a foundation and have people complain that they weren't consulted enough. Or that the decisions were all up to Red Hat, or The Cabal[TM]. Perhaps they thought the decision was newsworthy at face value, and a big step in the direction they first announced for Fedora -- a step further actually. After all, the details of establishing an NPO aren't terribly sexy and the next opportunity for such an announcement may be months off, and an event exclusively about Red Hat wouldn't be until this time next year. Maybe the Deputy General Counsel of a publicly held corporation didn't want to give too much legal info at a conference with 700+ strangers. Maybe they didn't expect folks to expect - er - demand such detail less than a week after the announcement was made. Or maybe they know folks will find a reason to complain no matter what they do, and they did what they thought was right at the time, and ultimately right for the project. Which is more important in the big picture than keeping score. Red Hat needs the community leaders to make this work, so my $10 bet is those who really want to get involved will get all the mind numbingly dull information about the legalities of a corporate seeded NPO they ask for. If you're really interested, keep asking for more info (I know internal members will be). They can hardly reneg, not just b/c they announced it, but b/c Fedora needs this and Red Hat needs Fedora. --jeremy From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 8 03:44:52 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:44:52 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1118202293.5209.85.camel@cutter> > Red Hat needs the community leaders to make this work, so my $10 bet > is those who really want to get involved will get all the mind > numbingly dull information about the legalities of a corporate seeded > NPO they ask for. I asked, privately, for the information. I haven't gotten a response to that yet. I have a number of folks tell me that the reason the answers aren't forthcoming is b/c they don't have any answers. It was a slight misstatement in the press and now it needs to be figured out. But, as has often been the case with fedora, it's a good idea to keep up the public conversation otherwise you end up with folks thinking it was just a publicity stunt. I'd rather make sure it's not and in case anyone has any doubts about my intentions, despite the stuff I work on for fedora, I'd like to see the fedora foundation happen and be successful. Crazy, huh! -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 03:58:07 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:58:07 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050607205826c73364@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Maybe the Deputy General Counsel of a publicly held corporation didn't > want to give too much legal info at a conference with 700+ strangers. thats sort of the problem... not too much information.. leaves a hell of a lot of room for those 700+ strangers.. strangers with sindicated newsfeeds appearently.. to fill in the blanks with speculation. It would have been absolutely glorious if there was a simple official statement on redhat's site ready to go so interested parties can get a clear concise statement that provided firm boundaries as to the intent of the annoucement. You can't rely on the technology "news" to get the facts out to people without additional editorializing. A pre-prepared simple statement of intent that everyone could see on the fedora website would have done wonders to stop some of the more outlandish conjecturing as to why this was happening. The directory server annoucement was made the same day wasn't it? It had a mountain of information ready to roll. All I was expecting to see for the Foundation annoucement was a supporting press release directly from RedHat devoid of any 'journalist' spin to point people to when they wandered into #fedora and asked why was RedHat punting Fedora to the curb. If Deputy General Counsel can get up in from of 700 strangers and talk about it at all.. surely a paragraph describing the intent of that annoucement on the fedora website could have been pre-prepared. -jef From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jun 8 05:16:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:46:42 +0530 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <604aa791050607205826c73364@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050607205826c73364@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42A67F3A.8070307@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On 6/7/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > >>Maybe the Deputy General Counsel of a publicly held corporation didn't >>want to give too much legal info at a conference with 700+ strangers. >> >> > >thats sort of the problem... not too much information.. leaves a hell >of a lot of room for those 700+ strangers.. strangers with sindicated >newsfeeds appearently.. to fill in the blanks with speculation. It >would have been absolutely glorious if there was a simple official >statement on redhat's site ready to go so interested parties can get a >clear concise statement that provided firm boundaries as to the intent >of the annoucement. You can't rely on the technology "news" to get the >facts out to people without additional editorializing. A pre-prepared >simple statement of intent that everyone could see on the fedora >website would have done wonders to stop some of the more outlandish >conjecturing as to why this was happening. > >The directory server annoucement was made the same day wasn't it? It >had a mountain of information ready to roll. All I was expecting to >see for the Foundation annoucement was a supporting press release >directly from RedHat devoid of any 'journalist' spin to point people >to when they wandered into #fedora and asked why was RedHat punting >Fedora to the curb. If Deputy General Counsel can get up in from of >700 strangers and talk about it at all.. surely a paragraph describing >the intent of that annoucement on the fedora website could have been >pre-prepared. > >-jef > Yes. I completely agree with all of the above. Guess we will await information together then ;-) regards Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 14:58:49 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:58:49 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <604aa791050607205826c73364@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050607205826c73364@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0506080758bcc69e6@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/7/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > Maybe the Deputy General Counsel of a publicly held corporation didn't > > want to give too much legal info at a conference with 700+ strangers. > > If Deputy General Counsel can get up in from of > 700 strangers and talk about it at all.. surely a paragraph describing > the intent of that annoucement on the fedora website could have been > pre-prepared. You're right, I was just speculating myself at the number of reasons it could have played out this way. As Seth points out, they didn't have more information at the time, and likely didn't expect such interest at what they thought would be a mostly RHEL crowd. I'm just happy they announced it, and we should keep on them to be follow up. --jeremy From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 14:59:39 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:59:39 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118202293.5209.85.camel@cutter> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060718142a95df34@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05060720396b555548@mail.gmail.com> <1118202293.5209.85.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <556f970a050608075959baec06@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/05, seth vidal wrote: > But, as has often been the case with fedora, it's a good idea to keep up > the public conversation otherwise you end up with folks thinking it was > just a publicity stunt. Absolutely. > I'd rather make sure it's not and in case anyone has any doubts about my > intentions, despite the stuff I work on for fedora, I'd like to see the > fedora foundation happen and be successful. > > Crazy, huh! Not at all. Having been on both sides, I know that it works to keep on them. How fast is another story, as you know. --jeremy From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 8 20:46:48 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:46:48 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? Message-ID: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> I'm curious if we can make this happen. So far my attempts to find a college to sponsor us have failed, but I haven't worked at it much beyond emailing a group of old colleagues. Next step would be to take it to the LUGs. These would be BALUG and SVLUG. Jesse Keating is interested in giving a talk, I'll do one (or two, if we want to fill a gap with SELinux). Is this an idea worth pursuing further? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 8 21:24:46 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:24:46 -0700 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1118265887.14462.61.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 20:35 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > Either way, I think the MORE information made public here, the BETTER. > > We have an opportunity to un-black a lot of eyes by being nice and > > verbose, can we take advantage of it? Pretty please? > > > > I've got $10 that says that won't happen. I'll take that bet, but it's a sucker bet. I have insider information. :) OK, more to the point. We've seen these kind of Red Hat half-steps before, and to $SOMEONE's credit, it's a little bit better this time. The turnaround on information has been *much* quicker from WTF!?! to getting informed. And the point of this announcement is to make a foundation that separates Fedora from Red Hat half-steps. Think about not ever having to worry about what secrets The Suits are planning for next quarter! I think the point was to announce the intention of forming the FF with community input. The intention from the beginning is to have an open creation process. The only oops, IMO, was in not sending a pre-announcement announcement to all of Red Hat explaining the current status. The fact that there is no finished product behind the announcement is a *good thing*. The intention from the beginning is to have the work done in the open with community involvement. Think of this more as something Mark Webbink researched and put into his keynote, not realizing the worrisome impact it would have. Don't think anyone meant it to be so surprising, and there sure is scrambling to clear things up. There are some known details, aiui, but I hesitate to over-share them because I believe there is better clarity coming immediately from the current Fedora governing board. My major point here is to ask that this group, the Marketing Project for lack of a better structure to pin it on, be worked with to help disemminate the message *and* facilitate the foundation creation process. I'm volunteering to help, of course. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Jun 8 21:56:06 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:56:06 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118267766.6416.129.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 13:46 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Jesse Keating is interested in giving a talk, I'll do one (or two, if > we > want to fill a gap with SELinux). Not only can I give a talk, but I'll help out with the legwork and what have you in making it happen. My only concern is that I'm coming down on my own dime, so I need to stay as few days as possible. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 22:30:32 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:30:32 -0700 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118269833.20494.197.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 14:52 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > That's Fedora Foundation, not the Fantastic Four(TM). Joy > I think a great first formal mission for this group is to understand (to > grok) the FF and explain to everyone what it is about. Yes, for that we need information. Even the people in the know, have no information... > There are at least three marketing messages I see there. Yes. Targeted marketing. I really should get the list of things out here, as opposed as to it being i my little notebook Greg should be back mid-week, and we can formally have a meeting of sorts soon > I'd like to suggest that the legal people working on the FF creation use > the Fedora Marketing Project as a mouthpiece. Do the work here first to > help people understand, and let us help distribute the understanding. I should hope so. The Foundation's mouthpiece == Fedora Marketing Now, what's the Foundation again? ;-) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 22:33:04 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:33:04 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 13:46 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'm curious if we can make this happen. We don't have a formal process for "bidding", or even a formal schedule for FUDCon's (1st in February, 2nd in June), but we should start defining this What's cool thats happening in SF that a lot of computer related (okay, Linux) geeks show up to? And when do these things occur? Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 22:33:42 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:33:42 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118267766.6416.129.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118267766.6416.129.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118270022.20494.201.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 14:56 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Not only can I give a talk, but I'll help out with the legwork and > what > have you in making it happen. My only concern is that I'm coming down > on my own dime, so I need to stay as few days as possible. I hear there are budgets for these things. So, err, yeah, that can be sorted out. A stipend too, can be paid. I don't control the money, but I certainly can see to trying to get you dosh -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 22:36:52 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:36:52 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 15:53 -0400, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > > > Yes, as long as it doesn't have to be spot, jack, or me ;-) > > > > Well thats just the thing. You guys are some of the core people > getting > > it done, and it would be rather interesting to have a camera > somewhat > > following you around the day or two leading up to the Con, and > during > > the Con itself. If I was able to have a more active role in pulling > it > > off, I would have no problem being filmed while doing it. > > > > I would be willing to work on it if you are willing to send me to > germany. Here's an idea, theres a new intern for videography, maybe > him > and I can go there and do a little docufilm? Especially now that the > foundation is forthcoming, we seriously need to ramp up our promotion > and mindshare strategies. Okay, you know I'd send you there if I controlled $budget. I don't. But I do know there's a little money available for you to get there (if the RH sponsored seats are still available) Now, maybe we just send the videography intern over, and get someone like Alex to look after him and point him in the right direction? That can save us cost, and well, you can continue on with your internship :P Greg, do you know this videographer? Can you send him to FUDCon II? Of course, if you say yes, we shall draw up plans for him (and let his creative juices run wild, as well)... If you say no, we can still draw up plans for future FUDCon's FWIW, Red Hat / FUDCon organisers *need* to have DV Cams lying around/available for use. Really. And that's only the start of the problem. Disk space, beefy machines, do you want to broadcast, etc. all come into play. Last time we had Pogo give us machines... Jesse has since left, and next time we ain't going to be so lucky -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Jun 8 22:41:45 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:41:45 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 15:33 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > What's cool thats happening in SF that a lot of computer related > (okay, > Linux) geeks show up to? And when do these things occur? > Um, Linux World Conference and Expo ? The idea was that since we did a FUDCon with LWCE Boston, we should do one with LWCE San Fran. August 8-11 2005. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 22:49:18 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:49:18 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 15:41 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > (okay, > > Linux) geeks show up to? And when do these things occur? > > > > Um, Linux World Conference and Expo ? The idea was that since we did a > FUDCon with LWCE Boston, we should do one with LWCE San Fran. Right. First we have a 3 month break, then a 2 month one. Interesting. > August 8-11 2005. Okay. Its June now, we can still make this happen. (we after all did FUDCon 1 with oh, less time ;-) ) * How many local Red Hat speakers can rock up for the event? (i.e. are in Ca, and transport costs are low/cheap/free) * How many users would be interested in turning up for this kind of event? (LWE has lots of business users, so the SF usergroup's should be large-ish) * Can we find a location? * Do we have a lead taking up organising this event? We pretty much had Jack/Greg do Boston, Greg/Alex do Germany, do we have Karsten/Jesse doing SF? * Do we have a backup plan if venues go belly up? (Yes, this does happen) Feel free to add to the list... We might as well keep it handy somewhere too.... So, harness the wiki people, start loving it (if you need edit access, poke) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 23:03:44 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:03:44 -0700 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) Message-ID: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Here it is folk... * Define roles (of people) * Start officiating meetings (weekly might be too taxing, but maybe bi-weekly...) * We handle all press releases * Create marketing presentations * FUDCon (video/audio/live streaming, distribution afterward, publicity, organising) * Tracking media releases - providing appropriate responses if they're wrong/incorrect (Jack has done this in the past, though cc'ed only on a private list; Rahul Sundaram has been doing this in public on f-m-l, great stuff - I smell a role here, already) - harness resources like google news * Encourage MarCon's to do presentations * Local/OEM support companies are important to list. Also CD vendors. Let's encourage the spreading of Fedora, by helping those that do it IRL (and so happen to make a little money off it) * Fedora books, CDs, Resources DB - we need a list * Targeted marketing: developers, users, companies, universities (add more here) * Plans for a newer website - users go to it first, lets make it usable/better * Fedora Traffic - aka fedora news updates. How do we as a team make it happen (I have ideas, scripts, etc... just now looking for volunteers and well, delegation time) * Find out about existing Fedora websites. See how we can build on their resources (like how we did for fedoraforum), and maybe make affiliations with them * Create a formal swag request/fulfillment process * Hardware Compatibility Lists (HCLs) - we are certifiying nothing. More on this topic in a while (i.e. I have code, and work in ~/code/hwdb, now its just time to unleash the beast for a beating) * Marketing via a LiveCD - developer's don't find this terribly useful, but its a great marketing tool. Now, we need to leverage pushing this towards being done. * Getting wider exposure - magazines have to start loving us. Even if it means we edit the comps.xml and provide something suitable for them. DVDs are getting popular though, whee! -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Jun 8 23:08:32 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:08:32 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 15:49 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > * Do we have a lead taking up organising this event? We pretty much > had > Jack/Greg do Boston, Greg/Alex do Germany, do we have Karsten/Jesse > doing SF? Well, I wouldn't mind doing this. I hope to be able to pull info from people doing the previous FUDCons. > > Feel free to add to the list... We might as well keep it handy > somewhere > too.... So, harness the wiki people, start loving it (if you need edit > access, poke) > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon I've added to the list, however this seems like a generic 'plan a fudcon' page. Should we create a FUDConIII page with more specific information and start letting people fill in the blanks? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 23:14:44 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:14:44 -0700 Subject: Defining roles Message-ID: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> I'm taking a stab at performing #1 on the list Lead - Colin Charles (okay, if you have problems about this, please speak up. If you think you'd be doing a better job, also please speak up. I'm going on this via permission from Greg...) Co-Lead - Jack Aboutboul / Rahul Sundaram (vote? whatever [as jack would put it]) RH Godfather - Greg DeKoenigsberg (this is not a votable position, so don't even try ;-) ) Okay, in the past terms like "marketing director" has been used before. Blah blah, fill up roles (lets get stuff done instead) Now, committee members (I realise we should really be doing some form of election, but what the heck). I propose (in no particular order; and I know some of you are on other ctte's, tough): * Jesse Keating (our Legacy liason) * Karsten Wade (our Docs liason) * Jef Spaleta (our users liason) * Seth Vidal (our Extras liason) * Warren Togami (poster boy for our developers) * Tom Adelstein (possibly roping in Sam Hiser - tell him to get onlist) * Chris Negus Organisers for FUDCon's can popup at any given time, we must give recognition to them at some place on the website.... TODO There, initial noisemakers get roped in. Now, we definitely need more "do-ers" than just noisemakers. Is everyone happy to be on the committee? We can definitely add more people, as they become doers... Cap it off at around 12 core members (at most), and let everyone else be a marketing community contact (MarCon) Now all of you don't just get blind tasks. All subprojected to do work... Hawhaw. Comments, questions, brickbats? Love, Colin -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From adelste at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 23:19:59 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:19:59 -0500 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118272799.17781.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:14 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > I'm taking a stab at performing #1 on the list > > Lead - Colin Charles > (okay, if you have problems about this, please speak up. If you think > you'd be doing a better job, also please speak up. I'm going on this via > permission from Greg...) > > Co-Lead - Jack Aboutboul / Rahul Sundaram > (vote? whatever [as jack would put it]) > > RH Godfather - Greg DeKoenigsberg > (this is not a votable position, so don't even try ;-) ) > > Okay, in the past terms like "marketing director" has been used before. > Blah blah, fill up roles (lets get stuff done instead) > > Now, committee members (I realise we should really be doing some form of > election, but what the heck). I propose (in no particular order; and I > know some of you are on other ctte's, tough): > > * Jesse Keating (our Legacy liason) > * Karsten Wade (our Docs liason) > * Jef Spaleta (our users liason) > * Seth Vidal (our Extras liason) > * Warren Togami (poster boy for our developers) > * Tom Adelstein (possibly roping in Sam Hiser - tell him to get onlist) > * Chris Negus > > Organisers for FUDCon's can popup at any given time, we must give > recognition to them at some place on the website.... TODO > > There, initial noisemakers get roped in. Now, we definitely need more > "do-ers" than just noisemakers. Is everyone happy to be on the > committee? We can definitely add more people, as they become doers... > Cap it off at around 12 core members (at most), and let everyone else be > a marketing community contact (MarCon) > > Now all of you don't just get blind tasks. All subprojected to do > work... Hawhaw. Comments, questions, brickbats? > > Love, > Colin I'm on-board. Vision? Mission? Goals? From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 23:18:32 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:18:32 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:08 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > * Do we have a lead taking up organising this event? We pretty much > > had > > Jack/Greg do Boston, Greg/Alex do Germany, do we have Karsten/Jesse > > doing SF? > > Well, I wouldn't mind doing this. I hope to be able to pull info from > people doing the previous FUDCons. Yes, a ghosts of the past kind of experience. We shall place this on our non-existent agenda. > > > > Feel free to add to the list... We might as well keep it handy > > somewhere > > too.... So, harness the wiki people, start loving it (if you need edit > > access, poke) > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon > > I've added to the list, however this seems like a generic 'plan a > fudcon' page. Should we create a FUDConIII page with more specific > information and start letting people fill in the blanks? No. Not yet. The question is, we need to *define* FUDCon. Is this to be taken as a serious conference (typically happens once a year) or a miniconference Debian DebConf style? After this, we must be clear that RH has more spending budget for this sort of thing (yes, money, swag, etc. need to come from somewhere) again. Again, I don't control the money, or have access to $budget But if after we decide this, we're serious, and Karsten is in the SF area (well, semi-nearby anyways), yes, lets create a FUDConIII wiki page and start working from there... -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Jun 8 23:24:54 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:24:54 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:18 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > No. Not yet. The question is, we need to *define* FUDCon. Is this to > be > taken as a serious conference (typically happens once a year) or a > miniconference Debian DebConf style? That is a very good question. I personally don't know what DebConf is. I think maybe something less serious as a once a year con, and more of a 2~3 times a year thing. > After this, we must be clear that RH has more spending budget for this > sort of thing (yes, money, swag, etc. need to come from somewhere) > again. Again, I don't control the money, or have access to $budget This information would be very key. > But if after we decide this, we're serious, and Karsten is in the SF > area (well, semi-nearby anyways), yes, lets create a FUDConIII wiki > page > and start working from there... Great. Who should I poke in the eye until these questions get answered ? (: -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Jun 8 23:26:12 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:26:12 -0700 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118273173.6416.150.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:14 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > * Jesse Keating (our Legacy liason) > * Karsten Wade (our Docs liason) > * Jef Spaleta (our users liason) > * Seth Vidal (our Extras liason) > * Warren Togami (poster boy for our developers) > * Tom Adelstein (possibly roping in Sam Hiser - tell him to get > onlist) > * Chris Negus > > Organisers for FUDCon's can popup at any given time, we must give > recognition to them at some place on the website.... TODO > > There, initial noisemakers get roped in. Now, we definitely need more > "do-ers" than just noisemakers. Is everyone happy to be on the > committee? We can definitely add more people, as they become doers... > Cap it off at around 12 core members (at most), and let everyone else > be > a marketing community contact (MarCon) > > Now all of you don't just get blind tasks. All subprojected to do > work... Hawhaw. Comments, questions, brickbats? > I'm OK being on the committee, and possibly doing more than just a Legacy point of contact. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 23:31:45 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:31:45 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:24 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > No. Not yet. The question is, we need to *define* FUDCon. Is this to > > be > > taken as a serious conference (typically happens once a year) or a > > miniconference Debian DebConf style? > > That is a very good question. I personally don't know what DebConf is. > I think maybe something less serious as a once a year con, and more of a > 2~3 times a year thing. http://www.debconf.org/ It might be once yearly. Their mini-debconfs might be more frequent, I'm not certain. Reading material for all > > After this, we must be clear that RH has more spending budget for this > > sort of thing (yes, money, swag, etc. need to come from somewhere) > > again. Again, I don't control the money, or have access to $budget > > This information would be very key. Let's await Greg's response on this > > But if after we decide this, we're serious, and Karsten is in the SF > > area (well, semi-nearby anyways), yes, lets create a FUDConIII wiki > > page > > and start working from there... > > Great. Who should I poke in the eye until these questions get > answered ? (: Well, ideally yours (and Karsten's) :) We need a lead/co-lead for it, really. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 8 23:37:38 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:37:38 -0700 Subject: Graphics artists Message-ID: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Who here's good at graphics? We need to leverage and get one or two on board, definitely. And yes, even if you use a Mac and think The GIMP's evil, what the heck Takers? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 8 23:44:04 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:44:04 -0400 Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118265887.14462.61.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <1118265887.14462.61.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118274244.14757.5.camel@cutter> > My major point here is to ask that this group, the Marketing Project for > lack of a better structure to pin it on, be worked with to help > disemminate the message *and* facilitate the foundation creation > process. I'm volunteering to help, of course. In case anyone misinterpreted my bet. I was just being snide b/c that's what I do - I want to see the fedora foundation work and be impressive so, yah, i'm on board with helping it, provided what I hear about what it is makes sense to me. -sv From adelste at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 23:55:33 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:55:33 -0500 Subject: Consolidation of Fedora sites (A Resource Center/Portal) Message-ID: <1118274933.17781.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Sam Hiser and I did this sort of thing for a large UNIX company marketing a Linux desktop. Users need a portal to navigate all the web sites and resources out on the Web; also, a searchable knowledge base would help, howtos and pointers to moderated forums such as LinuxQuestions. We can also consolidate rpm packagers or put up a place for people to find backports. That really brings the noise level down and allows for some customer satisfaction. I'm on the Legacy project and they could use some help. Mr. Shuttleworth has provided centralized space with his desktop distribution and has the most active Linux community on the planet. I heard about the excitement and participation but didn't really "get it" until I saw it for myself. I delete hundreds of emails a day from just one of their mailing lists. I can find pretty much anything I want or need to on google and it usually starts with "Ubuntu Forums". Now, they released their first package in November and shipped their millionth CD in May. Sam and I laid out a plan for such a community for the UNIX/Storage company mentioned above before Mr. Shuttleworth launched his. He's doing everything we suggested in our plan - (I will provide anyone documentation on this off-line.) Colin - what about an update of your desktop user's guide? O'Reilly and Associates might release it under their Community Press. People would like to participate in updating it and perhaps adding more material. Industry focus I strongly recommend getting behind education on a global scale and that means talking to people like School Forge. Also some alliances with projects like FreeNX, Arabeyes.com, etc. I'm also wondering about reaching the channel. Many small resellers install Fedora and can provide level 1 and 2 support. That should not conflict with Red Hat's main business and could lead people to consider the mothership's products and services. That's all for right now. Tom Tom From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 8 23:57:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:57:57 -0700 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> /me replies to the fun stuff, first On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:03 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > Here it is folk... > * Hardware Compatibility Lists (HCLs) - we are certifiying > nothing. More on this topic in a while (i.e. I have code, and > work in ~/code/hwdb, now its just time to unleash the beast for > a beating) You've probably read it, but for those who don't keep up on fedora-docs- list, here is a recent thread on HCLs: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-June/msg00035.html IMHO, the HCL concept took a beating, in most all forms. The best idea is that some automagic might be nice. There are lots of lists of hardware by model in the distro that could be yanked into XML and thus into something pretty. But ye gods! don't let us do anything manual. 'Nuff said. > * Marketing via a LiveCD - developer's don't find this terribly > useful, but its a great marketing tool. Now, we need to leverage > pushing this towards being done. Oh, this is essential. Anyone who says it's not useful in many ways is not on this planet and should be ignored for this subject. ;-P I know there are technical hurdles and the like, and it must include a usable OO.o. Knoppix STD works great for me personally, but I *know* I could convert people if I could just boot Fedora Core on their machines in a non-destructive manner. At US$.015 a live CD, that's some cheap propaganda. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 00:01:08 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:01:08 -0700 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118275268.14462.86.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:14 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > I'm taking a stab at performing #1 on the list > * Karsten Wade (our Docs liason) OK. I had planned on keeping my nose in for just that purpose, to liaise, doing it on a formal basis is only that much more. 'Course, now this means I have to take tasks and assignment and stuff. :-D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 00:09:20 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:09:20 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:31 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:24 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > No. Not yet. The question is, we need to *define* FUDCon. Is this to > > > be > > > taken as a serious conference (typically happens once a year) or a > > > miniconference Debian DebConf style? If we can make them FUDCon-in-a-box, then I think they are ideal to set up in a reasonable number of locations. The LWCE hubs are generically attractive to Linux enthusiasts. If it is put together piecemeal on entirely volunteer labor with borrowed materials, uh, hmm ... Hmmm ... How were the first FUDCons in this regard? Did we engage with any event support services? Random student labor? > > > But if after we decide this, we're serious, and Karsten is in the SF > > > area (well, semi-nearby anyways), yes, lets create a FUDConIII wiki > > > page > > > and start working from there... > > > > Great. Who should I poke in the eye until these questions get > > answered ? (: > > Well, ideally yours (and Karsten's) :) > > We need a lead/co-lead for it, really. I'll co-lead a two-stage effort: 1. Research and decide feasability of doing FUDCon3 in August - one week milestone 2. Proceed, if feasible I note, with some interest, that the Fedora Foundation is intended for completion by mid-August. I smell a convergence of events. I just don't want to be renting a U-Haul to bring rental chairs in from Oakland, thank you very much. :) - Karsten, who is close enough to San Francisco -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From adelste at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 00:23:33 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:23:33 -0500 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118276613.17781.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:57 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > /me replies to the fun stuff, first > > On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:03 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > Here it is folk... > > > * Hardware Compatibility Lists (HCLs) - we are certifiying > > nothing. More on this topic in a while (i.e. I have code, and > > work in ~/code/hwdb, now its just time to unleash the beast for > > a beating) > > You've probably read it, but for those who don't keep up on fedora-docs- > list, here is a recent thread on HCLs: > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-June/msg00035.html > > IMHO, the HCL concept took a beating, in most all forms. The best idea > is that some automagic might be nice. There are lots of lists of > hardware by model in the distro that could be yanked into XML and thus > into something pretty. But ye gods! don't let us do anything manual. > > 'Nuff said. > > > * Marketing via a LiveCD - developer's don't find this terribly > > useful, but its a great marketing tool. Now, we need to leverage > > pushing this towards being done. > > Oh, this is essential. Anyone who says it's not useful in many ways is > not on this planet and should be ignored for this subject. ;-P > > I know there are technical hurdles and the like, and it must include a > usable OO.o. Knoppix STD works great for me personally, but I *know* I > could convert people if I could just boot Fedora Core on their machines > in a non-destructive manner. At US$.015 a live CD, that's some cheap > propaganda. > > - Karsten I know a gentleman who makes LiveCD's for a living. I can invite him to help - it's not a big deal. Really! From stevelist at silverorange.com Thu Jun 9 00:32:26 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:32:26 -0300 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> Colin Charles wrote: > Who here's good at graphics? You put designers in a odd spot by having to reply to a message and say they are "good" ;-) What kind of stuff are you looking for? Cheers, Steven Garrity From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 00:47:40 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:47:40 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 15:36 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > FWIW, Red Hat / FUDCon organisers *need* to have DV Cams lying > around/available for use. Really. And that's only the start of the > problem. Disk space, beefy machines, do you want to broadcast, etc. all > come into play. Last time we had Pogo give us machines... Jesse has > since left, and next time we ain't going to be so lucky I'll expense one. j/k ;-O As for hardware sponsorship, Penguin Computing is local(ish) and their default preload right now is FC3. I don't personally know if I know anyone there, but we can always knock on the door. What do these machines do? If we want to 'netcast, there is plenty of expertise in the Bay Area. The key is finding someone who will sponsor for a banner on the FUDCon page. /me notes fudcon.org and fudcon.com got snagged on 13 Jan of this year However, I am now the proud owner of FUDCon.net and will donate it to the Fedora Foundation hopefully at FUDCon3 this year. And hopefully it will have better hosting by then. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 00:59:28 2005 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:59:28 -0400 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118278769.3810.22.camel@bree.local.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:57 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > IMHO, the HCL concept took a beating, in most all forms. The best idea > is that some automagic might be nice. There are lots of lists of > hardware by model in the distro that could be yanked into XML and thus > into something pretty. But ye gods! don't let us do anything manual. This was also the conclusion reached in the Fedora BOF at the Red Hat Summit last week. I have "write up the stuff we said" as a todo item, but the fact that I'm moving tomorrow has meant that I haven't gotten to it yet :-) I think this is probably a useful thing to put on the FC5Future page as it's actually not _that_ complicated of a project. The hardest part is the web side; the app to get the information is pretty simple between kudzu and/or hal. > > * Marketing via a LiveCD - developer's don't find this terribly > > useful, but its a great marketing tool. Now, we need to leverage > > pushing this towards being done. > > Oh, this is essential. Anyone who says it's not useful in many ways is > not on this planet and should be ignored for this subject. ;-P Also talked about this some. Live CDs are so a few years ago ;-) Perhaps a more interesting path to go down (at least for official re-distribution) is a Live DVD. That also includes the installer + packages so you can kick off an install from it as well. That sounds more compelling to me in a lot of ways. fedora-livecd-list exists, jump on and propose some infrastructure for the creation. At this point, I think the main thing is someone volunteering to help get the effort going, provide a proof of concept and then work to refine it. Jeremy From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 9 01:53:59 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:53:59 -0400 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <1118278769.3810.22.camel@bree.local.net> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118278769.3810.22.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <1118282039.14757.9.camel@cutter> > Perhaps a more interesting path to go down (at least for official > re-distribution) is a Live DVD. That also includes the installer + > packages so you can kick off an install from it as well. That sounds > more compelling to me in a lot of ways. > > fedora-livecd-list exists, jump on and propose some infrastructure for > the creation. At this point, I think the main thing is someone > volunteering to help get the effort going, provide a proof of concept > and then work to refine it. If people need to facilitate getting test images of fedora livecd/dvd's out into the world come talk to me about getting torrents up and if you need a place to just put the images up on the web I can help. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 9 02:04:45 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:04:45 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> > I'll co-lead a two-stage effort: > > 1. Research and decide feasability of doing FUDCon3 in August - one week > milestone > > 2. Proceed, if feasible > > I note, with some interest, that the Fedora Foundation is intended for > completion by mid-August. I smell a convergence of events. > > I just don't want to be renting a U-Haul to bring rental chairs in from > Oakland, thank you very much. :) > Just a heads up mid aug is really really bad for most people in academia. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 9 02:06:33 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:06:33 -0400 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118282793.14757.14.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 17:47 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 15:36 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > > FWIW, Red Hat / FUDCon organisers *need* to have DV Cams lying > > around/available for use. Really. And that's only the start of the > > problem. Disk space, beefy machines, do you want to broadcast, etc. all > > come into play. Last time we had Pogo give us machines... Jesse has > > since left, and next time we ain't going to be so lucky > > I'll expense one. j/k ;-O > > As for hardware sponsorship, Penguin Computing is local(ish) and their > default preload right now is FC3. > > I don't personally know if I know anyone there, but we can always knock > on the door. > Emil Hsieh is someone I know and he approached me a while back about what duke knows/does about fedora. If you want to talk to me and I can talk to him or we can talk together, let me know. -sv From ehemdal at townisp.com Thu Jun 9 04:19:24 2005 From: ehemdal at townisp.com (Erik Hemdal) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:19:24 -0400 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <42A7C34C.3030409@townisp.com> If this post is out of place, please forgive me. >> * Marketing via a LiveCD - developer's don't find this terribly >> useful, but its a great marketing tool. Now, we need to leverage >> pushing this towards being done. >> >> > >Oh, this is essential. Anyone who says it's not useful in many ways is >not on this planet and should be ignored for this subject. ;-P > >I know there are technical hurdles and the like, and it must include a >usable OO.o. Knoppix STD works great for me personally, but I *know* I >could convert people if I could just boot Fedora Core on their machines >in a non-destructive manner. At US$.015 a live CD, that's some cheap >propaganda. > >- Karsten > > > > I'd like to second Karsten's words on this one. I use Fedora in a variety of classes, and I hit newbie questions all the time. Here are some big issues: -- Lack of time to download four or more CD images, burn them, and resolve any IDE DMA false failures in mediacheck. -- Fear of corrupting a work PC/laptop/home computer that would be hard to do without. -- Residual fear of "blowing up the monitor". A surprising number of people I meet have heard such horror stories from long ago. -- General inability to gain ground and sort through installation issues. If you have never seen a UNIX system or Linux before, trying to navigate through anaconda and (especially) Disk Druid is pretty baffling. When I started out, I saw a lot of people who had some UNIX experience, and who wanted to learn (basically) how close Linux comes to behaving like their venerable OS. But now, more and more I find students who have never ever seen a UNIX system. They want to learn Linux, but without exposure to UNIX, many concepts are quite foreign. A live CD for Fedora can help new users avoid a lot of complexity and frustration while they learn the basics. I'd love it. Erik From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 04:37:17 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:37:17 -0400 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <1118282039.14757.9.camel@cutter> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118278769.3810.22.camel@bree.local.net> <1118282039.14757.9.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105060821376c709f2a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/8/05, seth vidal wrote: > If people need to facilitate getting test images of fedora livecd/dvd's > out into the world come talk to me about getting torrents up and if you > need a place to just put the images up on the web I can help. Has anyone gone back and talked to Dirk Westfall.. he has a a set of perl scripts i think.. to spin up a live cd from a set of rpms for a while now. For example his instructions on how to make a custom livecd starting with his barebones configuration. http://www.linux4all.de/livecd/barebone/customization-1.1.htm And his fc3 based livecd called basilisk http://www.linux4all.de/livecd/basilisk/1.40/README-basilisk-1.40.htm -jef From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 9 05:44:01 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:44:01 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118295841.9062.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 15:36 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > FWIW, Red Hat / FUDCon organisers *need* to have DV Cams lying > around/available for use. Really. And that's only the start of the > problem. Disk space, beefy machines, do you want to broadcast, etc. > all > come into play. Last time we had Pogo give us machines... Jesse has > since left, and next time we ain't going to be so lucky Just because I left doesn't mean I don't still have a good relationship with the company. The company founders continue to ask me how they can be more involved in the community. While I was there, I told them by sending me out as a representative of the company to participate in things like FUDCon and whatnot. They still have an interest, especially if these FUDCons become more documented and followed. Having Pogo Linux as a corporate sponsor along with Red Hat would be pretty good return on the loan of a PC or two. I can still approach Pogo about lending systems, OR to give us a great price break on some used equipment that could easily become permanent Fedora Marketing Systems for use in such things as FUDCons and whatever other show a volunteer might want to promote Fedora at. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From cnegus at mwt.net Thu Jun 9 06:28:30 2005 From: cnegus at mwt.net (Chris Negus) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 01:28:30 -0500 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118298510.3643.242.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:14 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > * Jesse Keating (our Legacy liason) > * Karsten Wade (our Docs liason) > * Jef Spaleta (our users liason) > * Seth Vidal (our Extras liason) > * Warren Togami (poster boy for our developers) > * Tom Adelstein (possibly roping in Sam Hiser - tell him to get onlist) > * Chris Negus > Now all of you don't just get blind tasks. All subprojected to do > work... Hawhaw. Comments, questions, brickbats? I'd be glad to join in. I like my assignment too! My greatest interest would be to help produce useful marketing or PR materials, since useful things get used. In other words, rather than write mission statements or meeting minutes, I'd like to help create marketing kits, presentations, or the like. -- Chris Negus From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 08:10:06 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:40:06 +0530 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118295841.9062.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118295841.9062.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <42A7F95E.5040604@redhat.com> HI >Just because I left doesn't mean I don't still have a good relationship >with the company. The company founders continue to ask me how they can >be more involved in the community. While I was there, I told them by >sending me out as a representative of the company to participate in >things like FUDCon and whatnot. They still have an interest, especially >if these FUDCons become more documented and followed. Having Pogo Linux >as a corporate sponsor along with Red Hat would be pretty good return on >the loan of a PC or two. > very interesting. Bringing in more organisations involved with Fedora would definiltey be mutually beneficial regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 08:33:26 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:03:26 +0530 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> Steven Garrity wrote: > Colin Charles wrote: > >> Who here's good at graphics? > > > You put designers in a odd spot by having to reply to a message and > say they are "good" ;-) > > What kind of stuff are you looking for? > > Cheers, > Steven Garrity A revamped Fedora website, Fedora forum.org, Theme (CSS/XSLT) for the Fedora documentation and everything associated with Fedora and a new logo. The logo shouldnt look a Fedora! to avoid displeasing cranky smart talker called Shadow man. All of them should be consistent or at least not too different from the default theme (clear looks) for the desktop. We could use a clear looks equivalent to KDE too for consistency especially if KDE is to remain within Fedora Core but without any other configuration changes to avoid flames and sticking with the Fedora goals of being close to upstream. Did I miss anything? regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 08:36:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:06:42 +0530 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42A7FF9A.1070200@redhat.com> Colin Charles wrote: >I'm taking a stab at performing #1 on the list > >Lead - Colin Charles >(okay, if you have problems about this, please speak up. If you think >you'd be doing a better job, also please speak up. I'm going on this via >permission from Greg...) > >Co-Lead - Jack Aboutboul / Rahul Sundaram >(vote? whatever [as jack would put it]) > > If I agree would you let me read these super secret mails from my future partner Jack? ;-) regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 13:12:14 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:12:14 -0400 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506090612263ad3db@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The logo shouldnt look a Fedora! Here's my logo idea. A goat.. named Scapegoat.. chewing on a fedora-like hat.. looking over his shoulder at us as we look at his behind. -jef"you'll like Fedora, or I'll eat my hat"spaleta From stuart at elsn.org Thu Jun 9 13:13:25 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:13:25 +0100 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <42A7C34C.3030409@townisp.com> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> <42A7C34C.3030409@townisp.com> Message-ID: <1118322805.17361.236001551@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:19:24 -0400, "Erik Hemdal" said: > -- General inability to gain ground and sort through installation > issues. If you have never seen a UNIX system or Linux before, trying to > navigate through anaconda and (especially) Disk Druid is pretty baffling. Anaconda definitely presents a lot of stuff if you select the customize options, and the trick is perhaps to get newbies to ignore them and choose the defaults. So screencasting has been proposed as a Fedora bounty, with a target of showing a default install (that's been captured in QEMU or similar), so that the newbie can see what to do and hopefully feel easy about it. Plus cool screencasts have marketing potential. E-mail: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-June/msg00057.html > When I started out, I saw a lot of people who had some UNIX experience, > and who wanted to learn (basically) how close Linux comes to behaving > like their venerable OS. But now, more and more I find students who > have never ever seen a UNIX system. They want to learn Linux, but > without exposure to UNIX, many concepts are quite foreign. Amen. Windows and UNIX worlds think in different ways about even simple things, and that impedes all kinds of communication. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA From kaboom at oobleck.net Thu Jun 9 13:16:35 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > Just a heads up mid aug is really really bad for most people in > academia. Something else to consider as well: if the North America FUDCons just alternate between LWCEs, they're largely always going to draw the same crowd. If one's in conjunction with LWCE and the other in conjunction with something "different" -- something like LISA, or the main USENIX conference, or the Red Hat Summit, or the O'Reilly Open Source Convention (though that one might be bad, since it doesn't move locations from year to year), or ... -- you're likely to enable more people to make at least one of the FUDCons a year. later, chris From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 12:18:08 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: grokking the FF In-Reply-To: <1118274244.14757.5.camel@cutter> References: <1118181166.12368.265.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118187930.28212.7.camel@deepfort> <1118188496.6416.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118190908.5209.28.camel@cutter> <1118265887.14462.61.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118274244.14757.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: The problem with the Fedora Foundation, of course, is that no one knows quite what it is yet. Including internal Redhatters to some degree. :/ My take on the mission of FF in general: 1. Take the ASF documentation; 2. s/ASF/FF/g; 3. Cut to fit where it doesn't, quite. My take on the mission of the Fedora marketing project, in particular: A. Short term 1. Recruitment 2. Advertising 3. Brand issues (with heavy help from RH initially) B. Long term 1. All of those, plus 2. Fund raising --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan Red Hat Summit ] [ New Orleans ] [ Learn. Network. Experience Open Source. June 1/2/3 2005 ] [ (And Make Your Boss Pay For It.) [ http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > My major point here is to ask that this group, the Marketing Project for > > lack of a better structure to pin it on, be worked with to help > > disemminate the message *and* facilitate the foundation creation > > process. I'm volunteering to help, of course. > > In case anyone misinterpreted my bet. I was just being snide b/c that's > what I do - I want to see the fedora foundation work and be impressive > so, yah, i'm on board with helping it, provided what I hear about what > it is makes sense to me. > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 12:23:16 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: Good point. Pragmatically, the reason for holding the events at LWCEs: 1. A large critical mass; 2. An excuse to fly Redhatters there on someone else's budget. It's all about budget. Until there's a larger pile of money devoted to FUDCons and other Fedora events, it's a matter of opportunistic pragmatism. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan Red Hat Summit ] [ New Orleans ] [ Learn. Network. Experience Open Source. June 1/2/3 2005 ] [ (And Make Your Boss Pay For It.) [ http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Chris Ricker wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > Just a heads up mid aug is really really bad for most people in > > academia. > > Something else to consider as well: if the North America FUDCons just > alternate between LWCEs, they're largely always going to draw the same > crowd. If one's in conjunction with LWCE and the other in conjunction with > something "different" -- something like LISA, or the main USENIX > conference, or the Red Hat Summit, or the O'Reilly Open Source Convention > (though that one might be bad, since it doesn't move locations from year > to year), or ... -- you're likely to enable more people to make at least > one of the FUDCons a year. > > later, > chris > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 13:39:50 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:39:50 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105060906394cf4f711@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > It's all about budget. Until there's a larger pile of money devoted to > FUDCons and other Fedora events, it's a matter of opportunistic > pragmatism. side note... one of the primary personal interests in the FF is having a place to donate towards things like travel grants for people preparing talks for fudcon missionary work.. or for the travelling fudcon hardware. So evetually we can send an emissary or two to gatherings that are less aligned to Red Hat's travel budget on the communty's dime.. if the community is willing to provide that level of support. -jef "my master plan: 1)FF 2)gain control of the linuxfund money pile and reuse it for FF travel grants 3)hold a conference on a cruise ship 4)win all the travel grant money back playing blackjack on the cruise ship 5)goto step 3 and double the number of cruises." spaleta From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 9 13:55:33 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:55:33 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 04:18:32PM -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > No. Not yet. The question is, we need to *define* FUDCon. Is this to be > taken as a serious conference (typically happens once a year) or a > miniconference Debian DebConf style? There is great interest at doing it again at BU next year. And we were thinking the "more serious" thing. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 80 degrees Fahrenheit. From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 9 14:34:50 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:34:50 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1118327690.2758.4.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 09:16 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote: > > Something else to consider as well: if the North America FUDCons just > alternate between LWCEs, they're largely always going to draw the > same > crowd. Are you talking about the same people, or the same TYPE of people? There is a largely amount of attendees that do NOT go to both Eastcoast and Westcoast shows, and there are a lot of Fedora users who would not travel across the nation for an Eastcoast conference, however may travel 1/4th of the nation for a Westcoast conference.... -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Thu Jun 9 14:55:23 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:55:23 -0400 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118328923.30988.0.camel@deepfort> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 16:14 -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > I'm taking a stab at performing #1 on the list > > Lead - Colin Charles > (okay, if you have problems about this, please speak up. If you think > you'd be doing a better job, also please speak up. I'm going on this via > permission from Greg...) > > Co-Lead - Jack Aboutboul / Rahul Sundaram > (vote? whatever [as jack would put it]) > Yeah I'm ready and willing to do it anytime, anywhere. If we want to vote, then I wouldn't mind it at all. Just letting you know my stance. Jack From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 14:04:28 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:04:28 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118325868.3544.35.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 17:47 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > As for hardware sponsorship, Penguin Computing is local(ish) and their > default preload right now is FC3. Okay. > What do these machines do? > > If we want to 'netcast, there is plenty of expertise in the Bay Area. > The key is finding someone who will sponsor for a banner on the FUDCon > page. Netcast, using gstreamer/fluendo stuff. Big disks, to record it on disk. Save for later editing... and voila! fun fun later > /me notes fudcon.org and fudcon.com got snagged on 13 Jan of this year We know this. They even e-mailed me to ask me if I wanted to *buy* it. Tha gall. We're just using google juice to point to us. And yes, we had a discussion about this > However, I am now the proud owner of FUDCon.net and will donate it to > the Fedora Foundation hopefully at FUDCon3 this year. And hopefully it > will have better hosting by then. :) Right, nice. Please get in touch with seth to get this setup if need be. Seth, we can point it to /srv/web/docroot/fudcon/ on fp.o -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 14:05:29 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:05:29 -0700 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118295841.9062.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118295841.9062.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <1118325929.3544.37.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 22:44 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Just because I left doesn't mean I don't still have a good relationship > with the company. The company founders continue to ask me how they can > be more involved in the community. While I was there, I told them by > sending me out as a representative of the company to participate in > things like FUDCon and whatnot. They still have an interest, especially > if these FUDCons become more documented and followed. Having Pogo Linux > as a corporate sponsor along with Red Hat would be pretty good return on > the loan of a PC or two. Cool Jesse > I can still approach Pogo about lending systems, OR to give us a great > price break on some used equipment that could easily become permanent > Fedora Marketing Systems for use in such things as FUDCons and whatever > other show a volunteer might want to promote Fedora at. Err, then we have the problem of where to store the stuff. And comes a budget again for expensive UPS/Fedex... We need to discuss this. TODO list -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 14:07:47 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:07:47 -0700 Subject: My brain dump (i.e. our marketing plan) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105060821376c709f2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118271825.20494.217.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275077.14462.83.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118278769.3810.22.camel@bree.local.net> <1118282039.14757.9.camel@cutter> <604aa79105060821376c709f2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1118326067.3544.39.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 00:37 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Has anyone gone back and talked to Dirk Westfall.. he has a a set of > perl scripts i think.. to spin up a live cd from a set of rpms for a > while now. He's on the livecd list. We haven't heard much yet, since the list got kicked off -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 14:09:02 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:09:02 -0700 Subject: Defining roles In-Reply-To: <42A7FF9A.1070200@redhat.com> References: <1118272485.20494.228.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A7FF9A.1070200@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1118326142.3544.43.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 14:06 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >Co-Lead - Jack Aboutboul / Rahul Sundaram > >(vote? whatever [as jack would put it]) > > > > > If I agree would you let me read these super secret mails from my > future > partner Jack? ;-) No. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 14:10:03 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:10:03 -0700 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1118326204.3544.45.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 21:32 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > > Who here's good at graphics? > > You put designers in a odd spot by having to reply to a message and > say > they are "good" ;-) Aha, we have you. You're good :) > What kind of stuff are you looking for? Nothing yet. But we can't always rely on pushing diana so much (like "hi diana, need a logo by tomorrow, thanks"). I know we're evil, and she really does do it well for us (thanks! she's the best :)), but we need backups and colloborators -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 14:12:08 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:12:08 -0700 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 14:03 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Whoa, whoa, hold your horses > A revamped Fedora website, Fedora forum.org, Theme (CSS/XSLT) for > the fedora website - this is more than just what marketing can do at the moment. Control lies with legal too, fwiw... Its currently php based (can be checked outta cvs), we (well, gdk) tried to get it using SSI, but that expirement ended Fedoraforum - we don't control it. But we should invite them to participate in this Theme - what, you don't like our css? ;-) > Fedora documentation and everything associated with Fedora and a new > logo. The logo shouldnt look a Fedora! to avoid displeasing cranky > smart > talker called Shadow man. All of them should be consistent or at > least > not too different from the default theme (clear looks) for the > desktop. > We could use a clear looks equivalent to KDE too for consistency > especially if KDE is to remain within Fedora Core but without any > other > configuration changes to avoid flames and sticking with the Fedora > goals > of being close to upstream. We need a logo, besides the one that says Fedora Project ? We should discuss this further -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From kaboom at oobleck.net Thu Jun 9 15:46:19 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:46:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118327690.2758.4.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> <1118327690.2758.4.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Jesse Keating wrote: > Are you talking about the same people, or the same TYPE of people? > There is a largely amount of attendees that do NOT go to both Eastcoast > and Westcoast shows, and there are a lot of Fedora users who would not > travel across the nation for an Eastcoast conference, however may travel > 1/4th of the nation for a Westcoast conference.... Same type. Locality influences attendence regardless of which show it is, but a variety of geographically distributed shows would between them draw a broader userbase than just alternating LWCEs. Apparently there's not a budget for anything else at the moment though, so it's kinda a moot point ;-) later, chris From kaboom at oobleck.net Thu Jun 9 15:48:44 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > We need a logo, besides the one that says Fedora Project ? We should > discuss this further One of the suggestions made at the Fedora BoF at the Red Hat Summit was that Fedora needs a mascot. Do the standard project-mascot call for proposals, online votes, etc.... later, chris From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 17:49:48 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:49:48 -0700 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118339388.3544.114.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 11:48 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote: > > We need a logo, besides the one that says Fedora Project ? We should > > discuss this further > > One of the suggestions made at the Fedora BoF at the Red Hat Summit > was > that Fedora needs a mascot. Do the standard project-mascot call for > proposals, online votes, etc.... Let that be on the ever growing todo list, then -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 9 17:51:42 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:51:42 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 09:55 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 04:18:32PM -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > No. Not yet. The question is, we need to *define* FUDCon. Is this to be > > taken as a serious conference (typically happens once a year) or a > > miniconference Debian DebConf style? > > There is great interest at doing it again at BU next year. And we were > thinking the "more serious" thing. Very sweet. BU were great hosts this year, and I'm sure they'll be great next year too! And locality towards Westford make it all the more sensible for FUDConN to be there (at the rate we're going, N might be 4 or 5 by then!) And if its the "more serious" thing, we can't pull off 5 a year! erps, Of course, we can.. we just need a correct marketing twist to it -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 18:15:27 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:15:27 -0400 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <1118339388.3544.114.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118339388.3544.114.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <604aa791050609111536576a6d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/05, Colin Charles wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 11:48 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote: > > > We need a logo, besides the one that says Fedora Project ? We should > > > discuss this further > > > > One of the suggestions made at the Fedora BoF at the Red Hat Summit > > was > > that Fedora needs a mascot. Do the standard project-mascot call for > > proposals, online votes, etc.... > > Let that be on the ever growing todo list, then Let me strongly suggest, that we avoid any attempt at a binding vote of the community for something like this. Open submission and a panel of expert judges would be much easier. -jef From stevelist at silverorange.com Thu Jun 9 18:23:48 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:23:48 -0300 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <604aa791050609111536576a6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118339388.3544.114.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa791050609111536576a6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42A88934.1080408@silverorange.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/9/05, Colin Charles wrote: >>We need a logo, besides the one that says Fedora Project ? We should >>discuss this further > Let me strongly suggest, that we avoid any attempt at a binding vote > of the community for something like this. Open submission and a panel > of expert judges would be much easier. Agreed - contests/votes aren't a great way to judge design work (you wouldn't hold a contest to see who's patched would get applied to a project, would you?). I'd like to help out, but I'm pretty stretched out with a lot of other projects right now. Steven Garrity From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 18:45:08 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:45:08 -0400 Subject: Graphics artists In-Reply-To: <42A88934.1080408@silverorange.com> References: <1118273858.20494.241.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42A78E1A.3020105@silverorange.com> <42A7FED6.9070101@redhat.com> <1118326328.3544.48.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118339388.3544.114.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa791050609111536576a6d@mail.gmail.com> <42A88934.1080408@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506091145685acf7e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/9/05, Steven Garrity wrote: > Agreed - contests/votes aren't a great way to judge design work (you > wouldn't hold a contest to see who's patched would get applied to a > project, would you?). Well... for other things beside 'the' mascot.. i would say have a seperate prize paid in swag to most 'popular' even if the popularity contest makes absolutely no effort to count unique votes. For logos or icons or background artwork.. you could easily have the judged on merit winner that you include in an official way.. and the popular choice which is honored in a less official way. Two winners for those sorts of things.. isn't a big deal. For 'the' mascot however I'm not sure having two winners is constructive. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 19:00:45 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:00:45 -0700 Subject: blurb about Fedora Core 4 Installation Guide In-Reply-To: <20050609142722.GF5942@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1118272726.14462.75.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050609142722.GF5942@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1118343645.14462.121.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 10:27 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Karsten Wade (kwade at redhat.com) said: > > Here's a tasty tid-bit to include for the FC4 release announcement: > > Actually..... > > would the docs project like to write the annoucement? :) OK, but actually I'll do it as a member of the Fedora marketing project/group, since I think it really lands in that camp. > I can handle the mechanics of getting it posted, putting in the > mirror URLs, etc. Aside from the Installation Guide, what else do we want to highlight about the release? I've Cc:'d f-marketing-l to get some more input on what to include. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Thu Jun 9 19:03:54 2005 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:03:54 -0400 Subject: blurb about Fedora Core 4 Installation Guide In-Reply-To: <1118343645.14462.121.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1118272726.14462.75.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050609142722.GF5942@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1118343645.14462.121.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20050609190354.GA9015@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Karsten Wade (kwade at redhat.com) said: > > > Here's a tasty tid-bit to include for the FC4 release announcement: > > > > Actually..... > > > > would the docs project like to write the annoucement? :) > > OK, but actually I'll do it as a member of the Fedora marketing > project/group, since I think it really lands in that camp. > > > I can handle the mechanics of getting it posted, putting in the > > mirror URLs, etc. > > Aside from the Installation Guide, what else do we want to highlight > about the release? > > I've Cc:'d f-marketing-l to get some more input on what to include. Let's see: - newer/better/faster/more - OpenOffice 2.0 pre - GNOME 2.10 - KDE 3.4 - Eclipse & the java stack, in all its huge glory - Extras by default at release time - PPC now included, for your now antique macs (ok, leave off that last part) That's the big highlights off the top of my head. Bill From kaboom at oobleck.net Thu Jun 9 19:25:20 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: blurb about Fedora Core 4 Installation Guide In-Reply-To: <20050609190354.GA9015@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1118272726.14462.75.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050609142722.GF5942@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1118343645.14462.121.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050609190354.GA9015@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Let's see: > > - newer/better/faster/more > - OpenOffice 2.0 pre > - GNOME 2.10 > - KDE 3.4 > - Eclipse & the java stack, in all its huge glory > - Extras by default at release time > - PPC now included, for your now antique macs (ok, leave off that last part) > > That's the big highlights off the top of my head. Some of the following might be worth mentioning also: GCC 4 FORTIFY_SOURCE and the other security enhancements Xen NetworkManager later, chris From stevelist at silverorange.com Thu Jun 9 19:38:44 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:38:44 -0300 Subject: blurb about Fedora Core 4 Installation Guide In-Reply-To: <20050609190354.GA9015@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1118272726.14462.75.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050609142722.GF5942@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1118343645.14462.121.camel@erato.phig.org> <20050609190354.GA9015@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <42A89AC4.4020605@silverorange.com> Bill Nottingham wrote: > That's the big highlights off the top of my head. Just part of Gnome 2.10, but since it's such a visible change, maybe mention the new default theme. Cheers, Steven Garrity From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Thu Jun 9 21:47:49 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:47:49 -0400 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1118353670.30988.7.camel@deepfort> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 17:47 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > As for hardware sponsorship, Penguin Computing is local(ish) and their > default preload right now is FC3. > > I don't personally know if I know anyone there, but we can always knock > on the door. > I do. I know Sam Ockman, one of the founders, I can always ask him. Also despite Jesse leaving, we have forged a good relationship with pogo and should and will continue to work with them. They are good guys and always like to help, Jesse or not. > If we want to 'netcast, there is plenty of expertise in the Bay Area. > The key is finding someone who will sponsor for a banner on the FUDCon > page. > We have already had tremendous success using flumotion from fluendo whom Thomas Van Der Stichele works for. It is great to use and also does everything natively in ogg/theora which is a huge plus. > /me notes fudcon.org and fudcon.com got snagged on 13 Jan of this year > We know. They asked us if we wanted to sign an agreement to get it from them, part of some open domain thing. We declined due to RH Legal's dislike of the idea which looks like was the right thing. For now I suggest we continue to use fudcon.fp.o and do the same when the foundation is up and running. Although, at that point, we might need to change the fudcon name. JAck From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Thu Jun 9 21:56:59 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:56:59 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118273094.6416.148.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118273505.20494.238.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118275760.14462.96.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118282685.14757.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1118354219.30988.13.camel@deepfort> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 09:16 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > Just a heads up mid aug is really really bad for most people in > > academia. > > Something else to consider as well: if the North America FUDCons just > alternate between LWCEs, they're largely always going to draw the same > crowd. If one's in conjunction with LWCE and the other in conjunction with > something "different" -- something like LISA, or the main USENIX > conference, or the Red Hat Summit, or the O'Reilly Open Source Convention > (though that one might be bad, since it doesn't move locations from year > to year), or ... -- you're likely to enable more people to make at least > one of the FUDCons a year. LinuxWorld doesn't change location either. FUDCon II is in germany at LinuxTag. Anyway, I think we should define some timetable and not act in haste to get as many of these going. So far, personally, I like the LWCE idea because they are in Boston and SF. Boston is home to RH Engineering, so that means alot of developer representation and SF is the valley, where you get alot of highly knowledgeable people showing up to shows. Even amongst lay people, being in Silicon Valley means having more exposure to Linux than other places in the country. As far as international venues, I think the big shows, FOSDEM and LinuxTag are good candidates. Maybe we should scratch the FUDCon idea for europe altogether and have something else, perhaps FUADEC. JAck From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 9 22:09:15 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:09:15 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 10:51:42AM -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > There is great interest at doing it again at BU next year. And we were > > thinking the "more serious" thing. > Very sweet. BU were great hosts this year, and I'm sure they'll be great > next year too! And locality towards Westford make it all the more > sensible for FUDConN to be there (at the rate we're going, N might be 4 > or 5 by then!) > And if its the "more serious" thing, we can't pull off 5 a year! erps, > Of course, we can.. we just need a correct marketing twist to it I think the sequential-non-annual numbering is going to be confusing to some people. Maybe that's intended. However, maybe the next one here should be "Boston FUDCon 2006" rather than FUDCon4 or whatever. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 81 degrees Fahrenheit. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 9 22:25:45 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:25:45 -0400 Subject: Getting down to business In-Reply-To: <1118325868.3544.35.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1117657532.13815.34.camel@deepfort> <1117783568.2804.19.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1117913307.3151.436.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1117950078.2804.41.camel@yoda.loki.me> <1118174024.28212.2.camel@deepfort> <1118270213.20494.205.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118278060.14462.104.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118325868.3544.35.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1118355945.29574.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > > However, I am now the proud owner of FUDCon.net and will donate it to > > the Fedora Foundation hopefully at FUDCon3 this year. And hopefully it > > will have better hosting by then. :) > > Right, nice. Please get in touch with seth to get this setup if need > be. > > Seth, we can point it to /srv/web/docroot/fudcon/ on fp.o 1. http://fudcon.fedoraproject.org now exists which points to the above dir 2. fudcon.net - just make a cname for www.fudcon.net and fudcon.net to point to fedora.linux.duke.edu and I can set up the vhost to do all the same, above. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jun 10 00:07:20 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:07:20 -0700 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1118362040.14462.148.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-06-09 at 18:09 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 10:51:42AM -0700, Colin Charles wrote: > > > There is great interest at doing it again at BU next year. And we were > > > thinking the "more serious" thing. > > Very sweet. BU were great hosts this year, and I'm sure they'll be great > > next year too! And locality towards Westford make it all the more > > sensible for FUDConN to be there (at the rate we're going, N might be 4 > > or 5 by then!) > > And if its the "more serious" thing, we can't pull off 5 a year! erps, > > Of course, we can.. we just need a correct marketing twist to it > > I think the sequential-non-annual numbering is going to be confusing to some > people. Maybe that's intended. However, maybe the next one here should be > "Boston FUDCon 2006" rather than FUDCon4 or whatever. I agree. This naturally presumes a continued association with LWCE, which is probably a reasonable assumption. Two in the US is probably enough for now. Cuts down the intracontinental crossing that is expensive and time *yawn* consuming. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From paulds at bu.edu Fri Jun 10 05:42:03 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:42:03 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> > I think the sequential-non-annual numbering is going to be confusing to > some people. Maybe that's intended. However, maybe the next one here > should be "Boston FUDCon 2006" rather than FUDCon4 or whatever. I would also point out that we were extremely inconsistent with the naming of that first event. Half of our literature said "FUDCon 2005" and half said "FUDCon1". So I guess we've already provided our own precedent if we want to move forward with the "annual" names. - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 05:52:49 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:52:49 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> References: <1118263608.14462.41.camel@erato.phig.org> <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> On 6/10/05, Paul Stauffer wrote: > I would also point out that we were extremely inconsistent with the naming > of that first event. Half of our literature said "FUDCon 2005" and half > said "FUDCon1". So I guess we've already provided our own precedent if we > want to move forward with the "annual" names. time to move to a consistent use of date +%s for all timestamps. -jef"date +%s, when stardates just arent geeky enough"spaleta From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 10 12:56:47 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:56:47 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 01:52:49AM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > I would also point out that we were extremely inconsistent with the naming > > of that first event. Half of our literature said "FUDCon 2005" and half > > said "FUDCon1". So I guess we've already provided our own precedent if we > > want to move forward with the "annual" names. > time to move to a consistent use of date +%s for all timestamps. Hmmmm. Wouldn't that be a short conference? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 81 degrees Fahrenheit. From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jun 10 12:38:15 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118270505.6416.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118270958.20494.212.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: I vote for FUDCon(n) with optional codename... Come to FUDCon 11 Vegasworld! Eleven reasons to come to FUDCon 11: 11. Fedora has the loosest slots in town! 10. Top 10 packagers get a seat at the Fedora Intellectual Propery Hold 'Em table! 9. See Jef Spaleta jump the fountain at Caesar's Palace! Et cetera, et cetera. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 14:00:32 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:00:32 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: References: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> On 6/10/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 9. See Jef Spaleta jump the fountain at Caesar's Palace! There's a funny story about me and the fountain on campus in college..... but i digress I'm not sure the sequential numbering makes the most sense. If Fudcon's start happening in rather diverse places around the year... even if its just 4 of them a year which could happen.. its going to get confusing. Especially if fudcons are sort of repeating events for a geographical region. You will probably find that it makes sense to make each event lean in focus towards areas of interest for subprojects in the Fedora umbrella where local leadership is present to guide discussion. Does it make sense to have a focus on "desktop" for each geographical area.. can you get a desktop project "leader" to each one of them? I think the best approach long term is to identify Fudcons by geographical regions and by a year and season (or month). Over time.. most likely.. a fudcon for a geographical region will act as workshop meeting for specific areas. Sure the intitial fudcons in a region are more overview affairs because they are 'new' but overtime i think you want to diversify the content to specialized areas where you can consistently have a leader present to guide. So for a long lived location.. you basically know who is going to attend..so you know what the area of expertise is... but.. you dont put the area of expertise in the name..to allow the area to drift over time somewhat based on who is available locally. So for naming examples: Fudcon Northeast Spring, 2005 Fudcon Westcoast Fall, 2005 Fudcon EU Summer, 2005 Fudcon Southeast Asia Winter, 2007 Fudcon Carnival Cruises Fall, 2009 -jef From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Jun 10 13:29:31 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:29:31 -0700 Subject: Consolidation of Fedora sites (A Resource Center/Portal) In-Reply-To: <1118274933.17781.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118274933.17781.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118410171.3544.197.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 18:55 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote: > Sam Hiser and I did this sort of thing for a large UNIX company > marketing a Linux desktop. Users need a portal to navigate all the web Yes, Sun and JDS. Let's leave it at that... > sites and resources out on the Web; also, a searchable knowledge base > would help, howtos and pointers to moderated forums such as > LinuxQuestions. We can also consolidate rpm packagers or put up a place > for people to find backports. That really brings the noise level down > and allows for some customer satisfaction. I'm on the Legacy project and > they could use some help. Okay, we have *legal* limitations. We're working out how liable we'll be by providing links... Even including the FedoraTracker into the Firefox search toolbar hasn't happened yet... I do agree, we have far too many spread sites out there. I'd be interested in seeing what kind of traffic they're receiving... Also, we can use Google juice to bring fedora information back to sites that we control The other issue with 3rd party sites is that most are half-baked. And by linking to repositories that aren't legal, its err, bad > Mr. Shuttleworth has provided centralized space with his desktop > distribution and has the most active Linux community on the planet. I > heard about the excitement and participation but didn't really "get it" > until I saw it for myself. I delete hundreds of emails a day from just > one of their mailing lists. I can find pretty much anything I want or > need to on google and it usually starts with "Ubuntu Forums". Now, they > released their first package in November and shipped their millionth CD > in May. I'm aware of Canonical and Ubuntu (as most of us are, I'm sure). Their legal limitations aren't as worrying (holding company isn't US based, but sitting on an island ;-) ) > Sam and I laid out a plan for such a community for the UNIX/Storage > company mentioned above before Mr. Shuttleworth launched his. He's doing > everything we suggested in our plan - (I will provide anyone > documentation on this off-line.) Mail it, if you don't mind. And also, allow me to redistribute it to The Cabal(TM) [1] > Colin - what about an update of your desktop user's guide? O'Reilly and > Associates might release it under their Community Press. People would > like to participate in updating it and perhaps adding more material. Sure > I strongly recommend getting behind education on a global scale and that > means talking to people like School Forge. Also some alliances with > projects like FreeNX, Arabeyes.com, etc. Alliances. Hmm. Again, we have to be careful where we tread. Of course, Fedora Foundation and all now, we may get away from legalese... > I'm also wondering about reaching the channel. Many small resellers > install Fedora and can provide level 1 and 2 support. That should not > conflict with Red Hat's main business and could lead people to consider > the mothership's products and services. We are listing this - its in my braindump [1] - There is no cabal. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jun 10 13:08:41 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118272113.6416.143.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118272712.20494.232.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I'm not sure the sequential numbering makes the most sense. If > Fudcon's start happening in rather diverse places around the year... > even if its just 4 of them a year which could happen.. its going to > get confusing. Especially if fudcons are sort of repeating events for > a geographical region. You will probably find that it makes sense to > make each event lean in focus towards areas of interest for > subprojects in the Fedora umbrella where local leadership is present > to guide discussion. Does it make sense to have a focus on "desktop" > for each geographical area.. can you get a desktop project "leader" to > each one of them? For right now, the organization and planning for FUDCons is highly centralized. This means that we can only hold so many, and in that context, I think that numbering sequentially continues to make the most sense. Now, if this concept evolves in a scalable way, and if we should become capable of putting on many FUDCons over a geographically dispersed area -- and honestly, the prospect of "franchising" FUDCons is *very* interesting to me -- then I think you're absolutely right. And what do I mean by "franchising" FUDCon? Maybe a good deliverable of this group is the "Guide to holding your own FUDCon", with a repository of canned presentations that clueful people can deliver to fill out a show, and this group acting as the advisory board to folks who want to do that. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 14:21:41 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:21:41 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: References: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/10/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > And what do I mean by "franchising" FUDCon? Maybe a good deliverable of > this group is the "Guide to holding your own FUDCon", with a repository of > canned presentations that clueful people can deliver to fill out a show, > and this group acting as the advisory board to folks who want to do that. I don't know if thats what we want "fudcon"'s to be. I think there is room for something else with a different name that lug-like organizations can do that fits exactly your description that can happen spontenously with a more user-to-user pr focus. I think fudcon need to have some clear development leads involved and should keep a focus on user-development interfacing. -jef From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 10 14:41:18 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:41:18 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050610144118.GA10665@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 10:21:41AM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > And what do I mean by "franchising" FUDCon? Maybe a good deliverable of > > this group is the "Guide to holding your own FUDCon", with a repository of > > canned presentations that clueful people can deliver to fill out a show, > > and this group acting as the advisory board to folks who want to do that. > I don't know if thats what we want "fudcon"'s to be. I think there > is room for something else with a different name that lug-like > organizations can do that fits exactly your description that can > happen spontenously with a more user-to-user pr focus. I think fudcon > need to have some clear development leads involved and should keep a > focus on user-development interfacing. I agree -- otherwise, we just get "FUcon".... -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 81 degrees Fahrenheit. From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 14:47:42 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:47:42 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050610144118.GA10665@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> <20050610144118.GA10665@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <604aa7910506100747751dbe70@mail.gmail.com> On 6/10/05, Matthew Miller wrote: > I agree -- otherwise, we just get "FUcon".... I was going to suggest exactly that.. for user oriented events... but i have an over-developed sense of irony and the medication I'm on now is "helping". -jef From prarit at sgi.com Fri Jun 10 14:53:27 2005 From: prarit at sgi.com (Prarit Bhargava) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:53:27 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <20050610144118.GA10665@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20050609135533.GA7018@jadzia.bu.edu> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> <20050610144118.GA10665@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <42A9A967.4030808@sgi.com> Matthew Miller wrote: > > > I agree -- otherwise, we just get "FUcon".... > That's it ... Matthew wins. P. From mattfrye at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 19:18:17 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:18:17 -0400 Subject: FUDCon3 in SF? In-Reply-To: <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1118269984.20494.199.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118339502.3544.117.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050609220915.GA27606@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050610054203.GA1985@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105060922526c26b8ad@mail.gmail.com> <20050610125647.GA6654@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910506100700864c3fe@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050610072131604a2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05061012185dc1c5d5@mail.gmail.com> > On 6/10/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > ...Maybe a good deliverable of > > this group is the "Guide to holding your own FUDCon", with a repository of > > canned presentations that clueful people can deliver to fill out a show... On 6/10/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I don't know if thats what we want "fudcon"'s to be. I think there > is room for something else with a different name that lug-like > organizations can do... I understand both points of view here (hey greg). I think the deliverable of a "Guide..." is a good thing to have once FUDcon (or FUdcon, or whatever) is established, mapped out, etc. That being said, in the meantime I agree with Jef's notion of geographical regions-by year-by season, e.g. Fudcon West Fall, 2005 with the initial limit being no more than 4 or so at first. Later on, the chapter concept will develop itself and there could be an Fudcon East Texas - Early Spring 2006. LUGlike orgs won't have a clue until this group does. I've seen that in action. Matt Frye From hballal at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 01:19:46 2005 From: hballal at gmail.com (Hrishikesh Ballal) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:19:46 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1118798386.4502.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi All, I am having trouble receiving emails from this list. I subscribed to this list a couple of days ago. For some reason I cannot receive emails. I am looking to help with the Fedora Project. I have web and content development skills in PHP and J2ME. I had been a professional web developer using PHP and MySQL, developing websites for almost 2 yrs. Now, I do it as a hobby. Seth (Vidal) pointed me to this list. I was wondering if there is anyone or any project here that needs help or is there a place where I can sign up? I can write in detail about my skills. Please feel free to get back to me on the email above. Thanks again. Hrishi From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 15 06:59:19 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:59:19 -0400 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1118780736.27126.28.camel@dhcp83-80.boston.redhat.com> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> <1118114198.25131.213.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118780736.27126.28.camel@dhcp83-80.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1118818759.3032.74.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 16:25 -0400, Diana Fong wrote: > Hello... > > Let me know how I can help. two ways: - a new set of themes for the wiki at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki and/or - a new general layout or consistency for the pages at fedoraproject.org, in general. In general all we're really looking for is a new design and/or set of style sheets. Is that do-able? thanks, -sv From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 15 14:52:16 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:52:16 +1000 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <1118798386.4502.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118798386.4502.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118847136.12345.86.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:19 -0400, Hrishikesh Ballal wrote: > Hi All, > I am having trouble receiving emails from this list. I subscribed to > this list a couple of days ago. For some reason I cannot receive > emails. Thats because we've been quiet for the past few days; write to the list-owner if this persists (in your case, lucky you, I just checked) > I am looking to help with the Fedora Project. I have web and content > development skills in PHP and J2ME. I had been a professional web > developer using PHP and MySQL, developing websites for almost 2 yrs. > Now, I do it as a hobby. Seth (Vidal) pointed me to this list. I was > wondering if there is anyone or any project here that needs help or is > there a place where I can sign up? I can write in detail about my > skills. Please feel free to get back to me on the email above. Thanks > again. Good, current fedora website uses PHP. Sopwith, this is one for you - oops, Elliot Lee is very interested in all forms of infrastructure development, esp. web. We surely need some form of "how do we help out with the fedora website" kind of thing. The website in its current form is fully check-out-able (yay, new word) from CVS (/cvs/fedora) There's nothing to "sign up" for. Scratch the itch. And I promise more coherent answers in the near future -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jun 15 16:42:15 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:12:15 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 4 release announcement on Eweek Message-ID: <42B05A67.1080207@redhat.com> Hi I was reading the announcement in your website [1] about the new Fedora Core 4 release and I noticed a misconception that I would like to clarify. While talking about the Fedora steering committees you have mention that "In practice, it was controlled by Red Hat staffers, who held all the steering committee positions." which is not true for several projects including Fedora Extras [2] and Fedora docs [3] and Fedora Marketing [4] itself The leadership structure follows the guidelines defined in http://fedora.redhat.com/about/leadership.html where steering committee members include Fedora community people who are *not* in the Red Hat Staff list. I would also like to add that it would also be a good idea to include in future Fedora release announcements our newly revised Fedora release notes created by Karsten Wade & co - http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/ and our installation guide for Fedora written from scratch by community members and Fedora docs steering committee people, Stuart Ellis (not Stuart Little!) and Paul.W.Frieds - http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/fedora-install-guide-en/fc4/ There has been a announcement about the intention to create a Fedora Foundation [5] for encourage more community participation which I am sure you are already aware of [6] Thank you for spreading our the information on the new release of Fedora Core 4 regards Rahul [1] http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1828247,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616 [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SteeringCommittee [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/SteeringCommittee [4] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee [5]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2005-June/msg00008.html [6] http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1823403,00.asp From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 16 18:09:48 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:09:48 -0700 Subject: Fedora Booth and BOF instead of FUDCon3 for SF? Message-ID: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Seems that with FUDCon2 being just before, and budgets being rather flat, and Aug being bad for universities, should we scrap the idea of FUDCon3, and instead focus on the Fedora Booth for LWCE and a BOF? We can still do some presentations IN the Fedora booth, with limited attendees (: I'd still very much like to be a part of this. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Thu Jun 16 18:44:12 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:44:12 -0400 Subject: FUDCONIII Preliminary Planning WAS [Re: Fedora Booth and BOF instead of FUDCon3 for SF?] In-Reply-To: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118947452.30988.21.camel@deepfort> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 11:09 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Seems that with FUDCon2 being just before, and budgets being rather > flat, and Aug being bad for universities, should we scrap the idea of > FUDCon3, and instead focus on the Fedora Booth for LWCE and a BOF? We > can still do some presentations IN the Fedora booth, with limited > attendees (: Well, here is what I've been working on. Ok, so budgets are indeed tight mainly because Fudcon2 and FudconIII would be in the same fiscal quarter. That seems to be the main blocker right now. I put out that request for places on fedorapeople and got back someone from berkeley about possibly doing it there. However, this is what I was thinking. A little company named Google is not that far from SF and would be willing to let us have FUDCon there. So, I say we see what they have to offer, with budget being thin and all, and figure out what we can put together. Also, maybe we could get some sort of shuttle service from the bay area to google. I'll update you as soon as I hear back. Thanks, Jack From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 16 18:48:57 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:48:57 -0700 Subject: Fedora Booth and BOF instead of FUDCon3 for SF? In-Reply-To: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118947738.5926.47.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 11:09 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Seems that with FUDCon2 being just before, and budgets being rather > flat, and Aug being bad for universities, should we scrap the idea of > FUDCon3, and instead focus on the Fedora Booth for LWCE and a BOF? We > can still do some presentations IN the Fedora booth, with limited > attendees (: > > I'd still very much like to be a part of this. Sure, I'm already doing booth bunny duty, and wanted to put a BOF together. Also sounds *much* easier to organize, which appeals to my schedule-that-is-constantly-getting-bigger life. Next year then becomes something we can actually plan for. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Thu Jun 16 19:04:10 2005 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:04:10 -0400 Subject: FUDCONIII Preliminary Planning WAS [Re: Fedora Booth and BOF instead of FUDCon3 for SF?] In-Reply-To: <1118947452.30988.21.camel@deepfort> References: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118947452.30988.21.camel@deepfort> Message-ID: <1118948650.3328.6.camel@bree.local.net> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 14:44 -0400, Jack Aboutboul wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 11:09 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Seems that with FUDCon2 being just before, and budgets being rather > > flat, and Aug being bad for universities, should we scrap the idea of > > FUDCon3, and instead focus on the Fedora Booth for LWCE and a BOF? We > > can still do some presentations IN the Fedora booth, with limited > > attendees (: > > Well, here is what I've been working on. Ok, so budgets are indeed > tight mainly because Fudcon2 and FudconIII would be in the same fiscal > quarter. That seems to be the main blocker right now. I put out that > request for places on fedorapeople and got back someone from berkeley > about possibly doing it there. > > However, this is what I was thinking. A little company named Google is > not that far from SF and would be willing to let us have FUDCon there. > So, I say we see what they have to offer, with budget being thin and > all, and figure out what we can put together. Also, maybe we could get > some sort of shuttle service from the bay area to google. Although having a facility is one part of the puzzle, it's hardly all of it. I really think that we're going to be straining the "what is FUDCon for" by having tons and tons of them. Not to mention difficulty of getting speakers to do tons of places or tons of talks being written. Jeremy From paulds at bu.edu Thu Jun 16 19:27:01 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:27:01 -0400 Subject: FUDCONIII Preliminary Planning WAS [Re: Fedora Booth and BOF instead of FUDCon3 for SF?] In-Reply-To: <1118948650.3328.6.camel@bree.local.net> References: <1118945388.25568.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1118947452.30988.21.camel@deepfort> <1118948650.3328.6.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <20050616192701.GD29396@prozac.horde.com> > Although having a facility is one part of the puzzle, it's hardly all of > it. I really think that we're going to be straining the "what is FUDCon > for" by having tons and tons of them. Not to mention difficulty of > getting speakers to do tons of places or tons of talks being written. > > Jeremy I tend to agree. By keeping it to just one or two FUDCons a year, there's a much better chance that a lot of the core developers will be able to attend, which then becomes a self-reinforcing trend. This results in a much higher-value event where actual work can get done (a-la FUDCon1) in addition to whatever user outreach / PR / marketing opportunities it creates for Fedora. Let's not reduce FUDCon to a prepackaged megaBoF. - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jun 18 05:54:47 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:54:47 -0400 Subject: fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: <1119027738.4131.14.camel@dhcp83-80.boston.redhat.com> References: <42A2BA4F.8000000@n-man.com> <1118015749.19379.30.camel@cutter> <1118035396.4991.17.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <1118035731.19379.58.camel@cutter> <1118114198.25131.213.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1118780736.27126.28.camel@dhcp83-80.boston.redhat.com> <1118818759.3032.74.camel@cutter> <1119027738.4131.14.camel@dhcp83-80.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1119074087.7160.52.camel@cutter> > Yup! I actually looked into redesigning fedoraproject a few weeks ago, > but needed some more information. Should I basically take the existing > content and structure, and create a new look for it? The front page needs more stuff and to be more useful. to be honest but a lot of what I think we're looking for is to take the /people/ /infofeed/ /wiki/ /fudcon/ and any other new page that might pop up and have them have a reasonably consistent look. > Also, is there anything you'd like to incorporate into the new look? I'm > open to suggestions. Not _really_ that I can think of. We've used the google site:some.domain.here trick in the past to setup a simple search mechanism for a site - incorporating something like that wouldn't be a bad idea. What do you think? -sv From hballal at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 07:45:35 2005 From: hballal at gmail.com (Hrishikesh Ballal) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:45:35 -0400 Subject: Fedoraproject.org website Message-ID: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello All, A couple of things. I spent sometime last week trying to "checkout" the website from the CVS. I followed everything that as was written on the Fedoraproject.org website.. entered my GPG key etc. but with no luck.. I tried to check out particular modules out of the CVS and did not get anywhere.. so I emailed the repository administrator and am awaiting a reply. I hope someone can help me with that here. Anyway.. When I saw the Fedoraproject.org website (for the first time), I had a hard time navigating it finding the right info. So I started tinkering around with CSS and came up with a layout. I did not know if there is a "test" fedora server it can be uploaded and everyone can see it.. so I uploaded it on my own site.. at.. http://www.hrishikeshballal.net/other/fedora/ ... Can you please take a look at it and give me some feedback on the what I have so far so I can work on it later this week. As you can imagine all the links etc are broken.. I wanted to create a better layout. I am no artist and I don't know if we have one on this list.. I guess we need a "logo". I am not sure if anyone else is working on the website / layout,maybe he / she can take some ideas from it. But if you have any suggestions, comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply. Thanks Hrishi From mikem at cyber.com.au Sat Jun 18 11:19:19 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:19:19 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> Hrishikesh Ballal wrote: >But if you have any suggestions, >comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply. > My first post to the list. Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not an immediate concern. Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that have decided to contribute and know where to go. Fedora - *the distro, not the project* - needs a website. Fedoraproject.org isn't it, cause of the name. fedora.redhat.com could be it, but with completely different content. A good example of sucessful OSS marketing is Firefox. When you visit mozilla.org or getfirefox.com, what dop you see? Is the front page taken up by stuff about the mozilla project, and how to contribute to it? Maybe even making no mention that it's a web browser, like fedora.redhat.com talks primarily describes fedora as an 'OSS project' rather than an actual linux distro? IMHO, the primarily focus of Fedora marketing should be a website that - aimed at users primarily, and developers secondarily and creates - Attention - Interest - Desire - Action Think getfedora.org. Joe user doesn't give a damn that 'The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc.' What they do care about is this: - What is Fedora? - Why do they want it? - Where can they get it? Mike From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jun 18 12:02:56 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:02:56 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 21:19 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > Hrishikesh Ballal wrote: > > >But if you have any suggestions, > >comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply. > > > My first post to the list. > > Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not > an immediate concern. > Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute > are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that > have decided to contribute and know where to go. > Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm fairly certain you're very wrong. Moreover, for various and sundry reasons we need to make fedoraproject.org more interesting and consistent website. If only b/c the project pages can have much more flexibility than the fedora.redhat.com pages. > A good example of sucessful OSS marketing is Firefox. When you visit > mozilla.org or getfirefox.com, what dop you see? > > Is the front page taken up by stuff about the mozilla project, and how > to contribute to it? Maybe even making no mention that it's a web > browser, like fedora.redhat.com talks primarily describes fedora as an > 'OSS project' rather than an actual linux distro? And that's fine - fedora.redhat.com should be about downloading/installing/using and could easily have a link to fedoraproject.org for developer information and additional community info. Remember - fedora is not just about red hat. -sv From mikem at cyber.com.au Sat Jun 18 12:25:37 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:25:37 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> seth vidal wrote: >On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 21:19 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > > >>Hrishikesh Ballal wrote: >> >> >> >>>But if you have any suggestions, >>>comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply. >>> >>> >>> >>My first post to the list. >> >>Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not >>an immediate concern. >>Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute >>are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that >>have decided to contribute and know where to go. >> >> >> > >Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm >fairly certain you're very wrong. > Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it? Or do you think that more people want to use it, but we should focus on those who want to contribute? Mike From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Jun 18 12:31:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:01:56 +0530 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> Hi > Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use > it? http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users > > Or do you think that more people want to use it, but we should focus > on those who want to contribute? > > Mike http://fedoraproject.org is more about contributors and development. Marketing both the project and the platform is important regards Rahul From mikem at cyber.com.au Sat Jun 18 12:39:03 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:39:03 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > >> Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to >> use it? > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users Let's look at the opening line of fedora.redhat.com: "The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc." So far readers don't know: - That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System - Why it's good - Where to get it - Where to get help for it They do know: - That its Open Source - That stuff in it may end up in RHEL - That it is not supported by Red Hat Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards end users? Mike From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jun 18 12:43:01 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:43:01 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> > "The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and > supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new > technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is > not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc." > > So far readers don't know: > - That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System > - Why it's good > - Where to get it > - Where to get help for it > > They do know: > - That its Open Source > - That stuff in it may end up in RHEL > - That it is not supported by Red Hat > > Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards > end users? Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com w/o an act of law. :) The front page is off limits w/o approval from 7 of 9 rings of red hat's internal hell. -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Jun 18 12:42:56 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:12:56 +0530 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42B416D0.3000804@redhat.com> Mike MacCana wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Hi >> >>> Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to >>> use it? >> >> >> >> >> http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users > > > Let's look at the opening line of fedora.redhat.com: > > "The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and > supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new > technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It > is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc." > > So far readers don't know: > - That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System > - Why it's good > - Where to get it > - Where to get help for it > > They do know: > - That its Open Source > - That stuff in it may end up in RHEL > - That it is not supported by Red Hat > > Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused > towards end users? > > Mike It is but it just assumes a different level of expertise than a person who doesnt know about computers and operating systems. If you are willing to work on improving that, a prototype design similar to the one proposed for fedoraproject.org would be useful regards Rahul From mikem at cyber.com.au Sat Jun 18 12:50:40 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:50:40 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42B418A0.1070108@cyber.com.au> seth vidal wrote: >>"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and >>supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new >>technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is >>not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc." >> >>So far readers don't know: >>- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System >>- Why it's good >>- Where to get it >>- Where to get help for it >> >>They do know: >>- That its Open Source >>- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL >>- That it is not supported by Red Hat >> >>Given this, are you sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards >>end users? >> >> > >Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com >w/o an act of law. :) > >The front page is off limits w/o approval from 7 of 9 rings of red hat's >internal hell. > > I figured as much - I have an internal account and doing my own job can be hard :^). I propose: getfedora.org or similar for users (based around the idea that there's a much larger audience among people that don't already run Linux than that do). Making a mock up is simple and I hereby volunteer to do so, provided somebody promises to listen to me and host it somewhere should I manage to convince them. And fedoraproject.org for developers. Mike From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jun 18 12:57:02 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:57:02 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B418A0.1070108@cyber.com.au> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> <42B418A0.1070108@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1119099422.7160.82.camel@cutter> > I propose: getfedora.org or similar for users (based around the idea > that there's a much larger audience among people that don't already run > Linux than that do). > > Making a mock up is simple and I hereby volunteer to do so, provided > somebody promises to listen to me and host it somewhere should I manage > to convince them. Make a mockup - but I can't promise anything about necessarily listening. Don't get another domain, please. It's the last thing we need not the least of which is b/c it confuses things futher. -sv From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jun 19 00:58:48 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:58:48 +1000 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... Message-ID: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> We casually use terms like schwag[1]. Maybe we need to stop. We need to make sure our marketing materials and people doing the marketing, use words, oh so properly. Can't expect the rest of the world to think we're pot heads now, can we? [1] - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schwag&r=d -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From khirano at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 01:51:01 2005 From: khirano at gmail.com (Kazunari Hirano) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:51:01 +0900 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: Hi Colin, > We casually use terms like schwag[1]. Maybe we need to stop. +1 :) > [1] - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schwag&r=d Thanks for saving me time to look for it with my thick English-Japanese dictionary. Simple and easy words for marketing impress people, and they would be translated easier into Japanese :) Cheers, khirano From byte at aeon.com.my Sun Jun 19 02:46:24 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:46:24 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:25 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > >Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm > >fairly certain you're very wrong. > > > Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use > it? Yes, they do. A bad idea from an internal perspective, maybe, but never from a community perspective. The more populous we become, the more we'll inject fear into the RH sales droids. But remember, we're not here to /compete/ with their sales cuts http://lwn.net/Articles/83360/ for reference So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have a strong marketing arm ready to go. -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From mattdm at mattdm.org Sun Jun 19 03:22:08 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:22:08 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:46:24PM +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have > a strong marketing arm ready to go. I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*, or *promotion*. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sun Jun 19 06:37:40 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:37:40 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 23:22 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:46:24PM +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have > > a strong marketing arm ready to go. > > I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*, > or *promotion*. What's the distinction you're trying to make there? I think of marketing AS promotion so, I'm a bit confused. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 19 08:43:34 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:43:34 -0700 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 10:58 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > We casually use terms like schwag[1]. Maybe we need to stop. We need to > make sure our marketing materials and people doing the marketing, use > words, oh so properly. Can't expect the rest of the world to think we're > pot heads now, can we? > > [1] - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schwag&r=d The actual term is 'swag', as in what pirates receive when practicing their trade. The usage of schwag is a verbal transmutation. Regardless, both are slang with some potentially vulgar definitions. The downside is that swag has a connotative meaning that is hard to replace with another word. Have to do some thinking ... - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Sun Jun 19 10:54:25 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com > w/o an act of law. :) Naaah, you don't need an act of law. You just need an act of gdk, when he has the time. ;-) > > "The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and > > supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new > > technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is > > not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc." > > > > So far readers don't know: > > - That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System > > - Why it's good > > - Where to get it > > - Where to get help for it > > > > They do know: > > - That its Open Source > > - That stuff in it may end up in RHEL > > - That it is not supported by Red Hat > > > > Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards > > end users? I think there's some merit to what Mike says here. We can stand to make it a little clearer why to use Fedora Core The Operating System. 1. WHY IT'S GOOD. Because the distro itself is basically an alpha of RHEL, the most stable Linux distro on Earth, and because the universe of packages around the distro will get bigger and bigger and bigger and constantly more useful. 2. WHERE TO GET IT. A great big GET IT NOW button. 3. WHERE TO GET HELP FOR IT. A great big COMMUNITY FORUMS link. So I'm okay with a little rework, if someone's got better wordsmithery that I can use. That said: * Latest Fedora News will stay. * When the Foundation is established, we'll need to revisit this question anyway. * The hard part isn't getting users; it's getting contributors. I think that the marketing group should focus on the second objective as much as, if not more than, the first objective. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mattdm at mattdm.org Sun Jun 19 14:32:43 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:32:43 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 02:37:40AM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be > > *marketing*, or *promotion*. > What's the distinction you're trying to make there? > I think of marketing AS promotion so, I'm a bit confused. The difference is in focus and scope. Promotion, we make a bunch of "Get Fedora Now" web buttons and maybe some balloons and t-shirts, and have some parties and see who shows up. If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC." -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 76 degrees Fahrenheit. From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 16:18:04 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:18:04 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller wrote: > If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make > up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or > application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we > do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might > involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- > and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we > should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC." The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be more than users.. people who want to contribute. I really don't think fedora as a distribution is aimed at any particular userbase. I don't think fedora should make any strong claims to being a system for the casual users or for server admins or any other "target" group of users. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 16:24:08 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:24:08 -0400 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910506190924396791e1@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > The actual term is 'swag', as in what pirates receive when practicing > their trade. The usage of schwag is a verbal transmutation. > > Regardless, both are slang with some potentially vulgar definitions. > The downside is that swag has a connotative meaning that is hard to > replace with another word. Have to do some thinking ... well on a pirate theme... there is the equally bad 'booty' -jef"treat,reward,payoff,bribe,favor,grace,laurels... hmmm laurels just might work"spaleta From shiser at cloud9.net Sun Jun 19 18:19:18 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:19:18 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119205158.3440.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller wrote: > > If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make > > up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or > > application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we > > do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might > > involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- > > and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we > > should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC." > > The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be > more than users.. people who want to contribute. I really don't think > fedora as a distribution is aimed at any particular userbase. I don't > think fedora should make any strong claims to being a system for the > casual users or for server admins or any other "target" group of > users. Is there a distinction to be made as to Fedora user "Verticals" -- i.e. categories of users -- and Fedora Marketing/Development participants? Is it about defining AUDIENCE, again? -Sam > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 18:42:43 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:42:43 -0400 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <604aa7910506190924396791e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910506190924396791e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05061911421d9ee1ce@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > The actual term is 'swag', as in what pirates receive when practicing > > their trade. The usage of schwag is a verbal transmutation. > > > > Regardless, both are slang with some potentially vulgar definitions. > > The downside is that swag has a connotative meaning that is hard to > > replace with another word. Have to do some thinking ... Swag started out as meaning cheap sales leave behinds, but is generally accepted (in English) to mean any sort of branded merchandise. It's often still cheap, since it's usually given away. You can just always just call the items what they are as you roll them out: hats, tees, CDs, etc. Or something like loot, stuff, gear, Fedora-branded-promotional-bling. --jeremy From adelste at yahoo.com Sun Jun 19 20:15:05 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:15:05 -0500 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <556f970a05061911421d9ee1ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910506190924396791e1@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05061911421d9ee1ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119212105.10738.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 14:42 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 6/19/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 6/19/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > The actual term is 'swag', as in what pirates receive when practicing > > > their trade. The usage of schwag is a verbal transmutation. > > > > > > Regardless, both are slang with some potentially vulgar definitions. > > > The downside is that swag has a connotative meaning that is hard to > > > replace with another word. Have to do some thinking ... > > Swag started out as meaning cheap sales leave behinds, but is > generally accepted (in English) to mean any sort of branded > merchandise. It's often still cheap, since it's usually given away. > You can just always just call the items what they are as you roll them > out: hats, tees, CDs, etc. > > Or something like loot, stuff, gear, Fedora-branded-promotional-bling. > > --jeremy > You mean it doesn't stand for a "scientific wild ass guess"? I need to check my references. What a "snafu". (Situation Normal All **). From mattfrye at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 00:20:43 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:20:43 -0400 Subject: Worth noting the words we use... In-Reply-To: <556f970a05061911421d9ee1ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119142728.3559.253.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119170615.5185.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910506190924396791e1@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a05061911421d9ee1ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05061917201ca1a13@mail.gmail.com> > Swag started out as meaning cheap sales leave behinds.... Where I grew up "swag" means stuff off a truck ala Goodfellas. ;-) In any case, "Fedora Gear" makes sense since it's the brand identity we're trying to convey, as opposed to the actual "stuff" itself. MPF From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Jun 20 09:25:01 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:55:01 +0530 Subject: Kudos to the Fedora Folks Message-ID: <42B68B6D.1070008@redhat.com> Hi http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/7242 regards Rahul From kaboom at oobleck.net Mon Jun 20 14:51:21 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 1. WHY IT'S GOOD. Because the distro itself is basically an alpha of > RHEL, the most stable Linux distro on Earth, and because the universe of > packages around the distro will get bigger and bigger and bigger and > constantly more useful. Careful. The last thing we want, if we actually want any users, is to call it an alpha. Wade through your average LUG's mailing list some time and look at all the comments / perceptions of Fedora by non-Fedora users. A lot won't even try it because they view it as an alpha of RHEL, and not as what it actually is - a quick-moving, but still bugfixed / qa'ed distro. later, chris From mikem at cyber.com.au Mon Jun 20 12:47:20 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:47:20 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:46 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:25 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > > >Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm > > >fairly certain you're very wrong. > > > > > Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use > > it? > > Yes, they do. !!! Could you please explain how? Do you not believe that there are users who don't contribute? Do you think there are people who contribute but somehow don't use? Mike From mikem at cyber.com.au Mon Jun 20 12:45:00 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:45:00 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller wrote: > > If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make > > up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or > > application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we > > do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might > > involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is -- > > and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we > > should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC." > > The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be > more than users.. people who want to contribute. I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful products - ie, ones with lots of users. Most contributors got into Linux as users. Mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 12:14:11 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:14:11 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful > products - ie, ones with lots of users. I think fedora has lots of users. Should I go get stats as to the number of completed downloads from the torrent? > > Most contributors got into Linux as users. Which came first the contributor or the user.... I still don't think I've seen you define which segment of the userbase you are trying to target...specifically. I am personally wary of actively encourage novice linux users to use fedora, because of the rate of change and leading edge nature of the distribution. I'd rather underpromise than overpromise with any expectation to the experience novice users are going to have. I do not think fedora is the best choice for every novice linux users on the planet and I don't we to see any aggressive campaign to try to accomplish that very large scale migration. -jef From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 22 03:44:31 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:44:31 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 22:47 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > > > >Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, > I'm > > > >fairly certain you're very wrong. > > > > > > > Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to > use > > > it? > > > > Yes, they do. > > !!! > > Could you please explain how? > > Do you not believe that there are users who don't contribute? Yes, because: a) we didn't have a contributory process b) they don't know how to contribute c) they feel powerless without being @redhat.com d) even when they overcome (c), some twat @redhat.com will show them that they're powerless e) etc... So definitely, we've got a lot of people wanting to contribute, but they don't know how, or what to do. Then there's the issue of COMMUNICATION. It just doesn't happen. Well, it's been improving steadily If joe at redhat was designing cool_new_fubar_app, and told the community of his intentions, bar at community might find interest in helping code the app, or support it along the way. A classic new example of how all this community thing works is how PUP is being developed: intention, publicity, public CVS, friendly Paul, etc. An example of this /not/ working is suddenly springing out new features, etc. and I'm not going to list examples here, no. > Do you think there are people who contribute but somehow don't use? That too. People use Windows during the day, and at night, might have 2 hours to work with Fedora checking their mail. They may contribute packages during that short span of time Or what about good design folk. They'd use a Mac, but still contribute to funky Fedora-ness (web, etc.) And I'm sure there are people contributing in many soft ways not using Fedora. Heck, my main work machine is dual-booting FreeBSD and Fedora, because hey ho, day job *requires* FreeBSD. Am I not a fedora contributor? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 22 07:45:49 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:45:49 +1000 Subject: How many watch Gnome Marketing and OpenOffice.org marketing Message-ID: <1119426350.23117.44.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> As per subject, how many of you watch their wiki (gnome) and mailing lists? And in OOo's case, marketing.openoffice.org Anyone finding any inspiration outta there? Thanks -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ FUDCon II @ LinuxTag June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/ From mikem at cyber.com.au Wed Jun 22 08:25:15 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:25:15 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 08:14 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/20/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful > > products - ie, ones with lots of users. > > I think fedora has lots of users. Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows. > I still don't think I've seen you define which segment of the userbase > you are trying to target...specifically. The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux distros, but still requiring some technical skill. Mik From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 11:49:52 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:49:52 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > I think fedora has lots of users. > > Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows. I am absolutely okay with fedora having less users than MacOS and Windows, Nor do i think Fedora with its rate of change and leading edge focus is it a good fit for a vast majority of users of those other operating systems. Talking about fedora in this as a competition for number of users compared to any other operating system whether it be a linux distribution or not.. is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. > The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which > Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux > distros, but still requiring some technical skill. I think the linux curious have enough information to read on the main website. I don't think they need aggressive encouragement. -jef From mikem at cyber.com.au Thu Jun 23 02:59:31 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:59:31 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 07:49 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > > I think fedora has lots of users. > > > > Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows. > > I am absolutely okay with fedora having less users than MacOS and Windows, > Nor do i think Fedora with its rate of change and leading edge focus > is it a good fit for a vast majority of users of those other operating > systems. Neither do I, so I don't know why you said that. I was talking about... > > The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which > > Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux > > distros, but still requiring some technical skill. > > I think the linux curious have enough information to read on the main > website. I don't think they need aggressive encouragement. You think most Linux curious want: a) an open source project that produces technologies which may be used by RHEL and aren't supported by RHEL? b) a Linux distribution that's good? If it's a, then the main website is inadequate. Mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 03:30:22 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:30:22 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > You think most Linux curious want: I make no claim as to what 'most' linux curious want. And i think trying to pander to any target group, you run the very real risk of misleading them and giving them a colored view of things. Or if you misjudge exactly what the target group wants... driving them away. As soon as you start trying to lead people by the nose and highlight exactly the information you think is most interesting to that target group.. you run the very real risk of de-emphasizing information you consider poor features or disadvantages. This is not what i want to see. I do not want to see people walk into this community with expectations that are skewed by aggressive focused marketing. I want people to have a fair impression as to what to expect. What is bad and what is good about the distro is highly subjective.. and frankly one man's attractive feature is another person's bad feature. I'd rather avoid the whole issue of trying to highlight the good features. But If you must ask the very qualitative question "what is good" then i want to see the question "what is bad" being answered at the same time. I am very wary of evangelizing fedora as a distribution for ANY target group to flock to. I'd much rather underpromise than overpromise. Low expectations brings its own rewards over time in a way that high expectations do not. I really don't think fedora's problem right now is making sure we have an influx of users. I'm pretty confident in the download numbers and the mirror activity and the fedora-list and fedoraforumindicate the fedora userbase has reached a critical mass. > > a) an open source project that produces technologies which may be used > by RHEL and aren't supported by RHEL? > b) a Linux distribution that's good? > > If it's a, then the main website is inadequate. I'm not arguing that that the website is adequate. But I'm not thrilled by the idea of aggressive marketting meant to attract new users by highlighting only the features we think are attractive. I would MUCH rather have a user read about fedora and feel its not the right solution for them, then to have them read about fedora and be convinced its the best thing in the world, then try it out and find the experience doesn't live up to expectations. I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and desire" I think the website should focus on how to take "action". A website that tries to inspire interest.. runs the very real risk of misleading users. A livecd they can try out.. doesn't make promises it can't live up to. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 23 05:49:59 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I really don't think fedora's problem right now is making sure we have > an influx of users. I'm pretty confident in the download numbers and > the mirror activity and the fedora-list and fedoraforumindicate the > fedora userbase has reached a critical mass. +1 > I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential > users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and > desire" I think the website should focus on how to take "action". A > website that tries to inspire interest.. runs the very real risk of > misleading users. A livecd they can try out.. doesn't make promises it > can't live up to. +1 --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From linux at glossolalie.org Thu Jun 23 07:34:20 2005 From: linux at glossolalie.org (Thierry Sayegh) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:34:20 +0100 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> Colin Charles wrote: > a) we didn't have a contributory process > b) they don't know how to contribute > c) they feel powerless without being @redhat.com > d) even when they overcome (c), some twat @redhat.com will show them > that they're powerless > e) etc... > 1st post to this list and piggy-backing on the above. A bit of user experience ;-) I am a sysadmin by day, look after a few hundred servers running anything from Windows to Novell, passing by RHEL. Put me in the technically aware user base. I use Fedora for everything on the home network, used it from Severn onwards. Started with RH 5 or 6, cannot recall. I find it difficult to find some answers to my questions as a user but it's ok, i do find answers eventually, it's part of my job - like a 2nd nature. As a user I would like a *central* repository of info - there are too many domains/websites out there. As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but 1. I do not have a lot of time on my hands 2. I am not a developper/coder/programmer or whatever you want to call it 3. Don't really know where to start, who to ask, what to do etc. I am known as a linux advocate within my company, 90% is made out of developpers, even created a LUG there. Most of these guys have never heard of Fedora, they still recall the days of RH 6 to 9. I have a box running Fedora Core on my desk, I show it to them, they grab some CDs now and then or join the torrent at home. Sometimes a punter come to me and ask what there is on the market, what I would recommend. I wish there was a LiveCD to give them, I wish I knew how to make one but i don't have the skills/time to learn the said skills. my 2 cents Thierry From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Jun 23 09:39:13 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:39:13 +1000 Subject: Meeting times Message-ID: <1119519553.3824.11.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> So, when are folk available? I'm generally in the UTC+10 region (soon to be UTC+8, and then its going to change drastically afterward for the next month) This week is FUDCon II week, so don't expect much folk to be available, but please post your available times, and we'll try and accomodate anyone Currently, our meeting(s) ought to be open to /anyone/, so err, yeah, just mail us times Thanks -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 23 15:20:39 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:20:39 -0700 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> Message-ID: <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:34 +0100, Thierry Sayegh wrote: > As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but You just did. User advocates, documenters, marketeers, all sorts have something to contribute that is outside of code. Takes all sorts to make the community go 'round. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From adelste at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 16:10:27 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:10:27 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:20 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:34 +0100, Thierry Sayegh wrote: > > > As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but > > You just did. > > User advocates, documenters, marketeers, all sorts have something to > contribute that is outside of code. > > Takes all sorts to make the community go 'round. > > - Karsten Don't kill the messenger on this one. Or set me free if that's your idea. Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%. Ubuntu is the only active community in the Linux world right now. The amount of documentations, innovation, side projects, users, posters is remarkable. I think they did it at Red Hat's expense. If you survey the participants, many came from Red Hat of the past. They went shopping for another distribution when Red Hat 9 disappeared. If you come out of denial, you will realize you lost your community of participants and the project is too confusing you have unwittingly constructed barriers to entry. Look at the discussion on this list. Collin comes in with this commanding presence and others argue. Also, by excluding independents, you will chase them off also and have squat. Ubuntu has very carefully planned and centralized facilities for support and a core development team plus several hundred code contributors, bug submissions and gophers. They've been in existence seven months and have the largest Linux community. Fedora could do something similar but this waffling around will not get the job done. Further, your fixed ideas and know-it -ll attitudes will kill you. You don't have all the answers, you don't even know the questions. How can anyone contribute to you? What Red Hat lost, Ubuntu gained and then some. I did a study for Sun and prior to the release of the first Ubuntu product, gave Sun a blueprint for doing a community. They laughed. But, Mark Shuttleworth implemented it and in five months they shipped 1 million CDs - and that doesn't count downloads. I personally do not believe we can catch them. But we can look at their blueprint for a community and regain significant market share at the expense of Novell and others. Open your minds. If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have experienced elsewhere. Fedora may have some interested participants, but they are users not developers and not contributors. You have too much ground to make up. Don't forget, this is the result of the CEO telling aspiring Linux desktop users to go with Windows. I'd start over from scratch, do our own thing and forget the controlling interest of Red Hat. You need infrastructure and you need to court people at the LUG level. You should give away CD's, provide schools with free software including things like Openoffice, etc. If you don't want to extend yourselves, then you're going to thrash around and never get anything done - but talk. From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 16:12:52 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:12:52 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and > NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%. Where are you getting your userbase stats from? -jef From adelste at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 17:16:11 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:16:11 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > > Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and > > NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%. > > Where are you getting your userbase stats from? > > -jef > A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as Linux Questions. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 23 17:25:17 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:25:17 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119547518.32522.0.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and > regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. > You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your > immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have > experienced elsewhere. Why should we take your word for any of this? You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you provide? -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 23 17:26:20 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:26:20 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119547580.32522.2.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:16 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > > > Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and > > > NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%. > > > > Where are you getting your userbase stats from? > > > > -jef > > > > A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my > publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive > suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a > DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various > distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as > Linux Questions. > So you can provide this information to us? Can we get it in any other form than anecdotally from you? -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 17:47:44 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:47:44 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my > publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive > suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a > DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various > distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as > Linux Questions. I was hoping for citations that i can get a look at with some raw data and potentially a summary of the methodology for sampling. I'm very interested in getting statistically verifable analysis for any usage numbers for any distribution. I'm especially interested in any analysis break down of ubuntu's numbers not lumped in with as a debian aggregate. The last publicly available data I am aware of that even attempts a comparison... is the webserver survey of netcraft: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/03/14/fedora_makes_rapid_progress.html I'm more interested in the raw data than the glowing conclusions. In fact I'm really not thrilled with how fast fedora is growing in that study of webservers. The implication that fedora web servers are going leaps and bounds sort of worries me that hosting companies are choosing fedora without telling customers about the support lifetime. I really didnt expect fedora usage in the web server space to increase as fast as it has. There's a lot of room for interpretation of that data. But sadly its the only comparable raw data with a set sampling methodology that I am aware of. I am of aware of the distrowatch.com polling, but even they don't attempt to claim their poll is an expression of real world userbase stats. At best its "popularity" and they admit the sampling methodology can easily be manipulated by the self-selecting participants. Remember linuxquestions.org poll.. http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272090 what was the best distro of the year? slackware. Not to knock slackware or anything. But that result seems to indicated a very different world order than you are suggesting... and you even site sampling of linuxquestions.org as a credible source. Sorry, but forum activity just can't be used for anything more finer grained than "critical mass" userbase analysis. Also unfortunately ubuntu shows up as an aggregate with other "debian" releases so even in the very narrow scope of web servers I still don't have publicly comparable raw numbers for unbuntu alone. We could very well lump fedora in with rhel and get equally meaningless results similiar to lumping all debian derivatives together. If you have any references to publicly available raw data, I'd absolutely love to see it. Even getting accurate stats of downloads is really tough. Because of mirrored distribution and secondary torrents you have a hard time knowing how many copies are really floating around out there. At best you can get a nice lower-bound to know if you are getting a critical mass of support, but anything beyond that is impossible to do accurately with download stats. -jef From adelste at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 17:48:04 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:48:04 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119547518.32522.0.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119547518.32522.0.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1119548884.12544.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and > > regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. > > You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your > > immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have > > experienced elsewhere. > > Why should we take your word for any of this? Don't. Because I really don't care if you do. > > You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you > provide? If you don't know that, it proves my point as to the lack of information with which people on this list work. > > -sv From adelste at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 17:50:42 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:50:42 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:47 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > > A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my > > publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive > > suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a > > DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various > > distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as > > Linux Questions. > > I was hoping for citations that i can get a look at with some raw data > and potentially a summary of the methodology for sampling. I'm very > interested in getting statistically verifable analysis for any usage > numbers for any distribution. I'm especially interested in any > analysis break down of ubuntu's numbers not lumped in with as a debian > aggregate. > The last publicly available data I am aware of that even attempts a > comparison... is the webserver survey of netcraft: > > http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/03/14/fedora_makes_rapid_progress.html > > I'm more interested in the raw data than the glowing conclusions. In > fact I'm really not thrilled with how fast fedora is growing in that > study of webservers. The implication that fedora web servers are going > leaps and bounds sort of worries me that hosting companies are > choosing fedora without telling customers about the support lifetime. > I really didnt expect fedora usage in the web server space to increase > as fast as it has. There's a lot of room for interpretation of that > data. But sadly its the only comparable raw data with a set sampling > methodology that I am aware of. I am of aware of the distrowatch.com > polling, but even they don't attempt to claim their poll is an > expression of real world userbase stats. At best its "popularity" and > they admit the sampling methodology can easily be manipulated by the > self-selecting participants. Remember linuxquestions.org poll.. > > http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272090 > > what was the best distro of the year? slackware. Not to knock > slackware or anything. But that result seems to indicated a very > different world order than you are suggesting... and you even site > sampling of linuxquestions.org as a credible source. Sorry, but forum > activity just can't be used for anything more finer grained than > "critical mass" userbase analysis. > > Also unfortunately ubuntu shows up as an aggregate with other "debian" > releases so even in the very narrow scope of web servers I still don't > have publicly comparable raw numbers for unbuntu alone. We could very > well lump fedora in with rhel and get equally meaningless results > similiar to lumping all debian derivatives together. > > If you have any references to publicly available raw data, I'd > absolutely love to see it. > Even getting accurate stats of downloads is really tough. Because of > mirrored distribution and secondary torrents you have a hard time > knowing how many copies are really floating around out there. At best > you can get a nice lower-bound to know if you are getting a critical > mass of support, but anything beyond that is impossible to do > accurately with download stats. > > > -jef > Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 23 17:50:49 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:50:49 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119548884.12544.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <1119149184.3559.270.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119547518.32522.0.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1119548884.12544.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119549049.32522.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:48 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and > > > regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do. > > > You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your > > > immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have > > > experienced elsewhere. > > > > Why should we take your word for any of this? > > Don't. Because I really don't care if you do. > > > > > > You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you > > provide? > > If you don't know that, it proves my point as to the lack of information > with which people on this list work. > I wasn't being snide or sarcastic. I thought you had decided to email this list b/c you wanted to help. I don't like accepting claims about data w/o seeing the data or at least w/o knowing the background of the people making the claim. I work in a physics department, they get picky about that sort of thing. :) So, no, I don't know who you are but I admit to not knowing everyone. So do you wanna tell me anymore about yourself and how you got your data? thanks, -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 17:59:21 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:59:21 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004. I remember... which is why im very interested in statistically credible data that is open for review. I am not interested in the executive summary conclusions of privately funded studies. I think the linux community at large (not just the fedora community) deserves the right to verify the data and the conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure ubuntu users would enjoy the chance to datamine and draw their own conclusions. Its called peer review.. its how this whole open collaboration process is suppose to work. -jef From adelste at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 20:33:32 2005 From: adelste at yahoo.com (Tom Adelstein) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:33:32 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:59 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > > Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004. > > I remember... which is why im very interested in statistically > credible data that is open for review. I am not interested in the > executive summary conclusions of privately funded studies. I think the > linux community at large (not just the fedora community) deserves the > right to verify the data and the conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure > ubuntu users would enjoy the chance to datamine and draw their own > conclusions. Its called peer review.. its how this whole open > collaboration process is suppose to work. > > -jef > That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want our research studies. The data exists and you can use the same sampling techniques, interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do. I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I don't see any way you will accomplish anything. First because you are not supportable and definitely not coachable. An old Hindu statement put into modern terms goes something like this: Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No. OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but he knows it. You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs, rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything. I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge. Go look for yourself. From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 23 20:42:05 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:42:05 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050623204205.GA14534@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 03:33:32PM -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote: > I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's > working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. > Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge. I thought your earlier message was interesting, but the tone a bit belligerent -- in short, trolling for the kind of responses you got (or stronger). And now you're pretending to be all surprised. Honestly, we don't *need* this kind of help. > Go look for yourself. That's not the way it works; be nice, introduce yourself. Don't assume you're famous. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 20:54:57 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:54:57 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105062313541e5174b9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's > working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. > Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge. The name calling isn't constructive. I am extremely aware that there are lessons to be learned from ubuntu. The combination of foresight, charity and entrepreneurial skill that has come together in Mr. Shuttleworth is a rare set of traits. I'm sure there are lessons to be learned from a number of projects. So far I'm not sure you have given me any new information that i wasn't already thinking about. I'm sure everyone who considers themselves a contributor to the Fedora project wishes Ubuntu and other distribution endeavors much success. I can't speak for anyone else but I believe that that no one distribution idea is really going to 'win'.. its not even about 'winning'. Its about building a commons of ideas, an ecosystem of linux solutions, where all sorts of wacky ideas get tried and the good ones cross-pollinate into the wider ecosystem. Ubuntu's fresh start on how to approach community is one of those good ideas. No one is blind to it, we don't have to be beat over the head and be called jerks to see your points. You have valid points.. but man, there is very little community in how you present your views about how to build community. Its deeply ironic really. You are the best and worst example of what open community dialog can be. In one breath you wax eloquent about what a better community model could be.. and with the next you berate the rest of us in this conversation for not knowing anything. This is now how you build a better community. You do not inspire anyone to listen to your ideas or to give you authority in setting direction by browbeating or demeaning others for their ignorance. You are a broken spirit and I'm not sure you have the patience to mentor, to teach or to lead in a community setting. -jef From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 23 21:00:09 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:00:09 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119560409.32522.83.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's > working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks. > Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge. > > Go look for yourself. I really don't understand what is wrong with asking for the data so we can review it. And barring the data being available, I don't see what's wrong with asking for some background information on the person communicating the results of the information. I'm not trying to be harsh or rude. I really just don't see what's so wrong with asking for this info. You're presenting some information which runs counter to the experience I've had. So, I'm trying to get more information from you to reconcile it. I approach claims that I cannot reconcile right away with suspicion. That you're unwilling to provide the data increases my suspicion about the efficacy of your data acquisition methods. I don't remember calling you names in any of my emails nor do I remember Jef doing anything like that. Why don't we try to keep this civil? -sv From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 00:09:56 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:09:56 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want > our research studies. The data exists Where? Is it public? > and you can use the same sampling > techniques Which were? Are those publicly available? > interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write > the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do. This is off point. Wasn't your point that we reject ideas and information? I've seen nothing but requests for the information. I know who you are, and so does Google. And I don't question your credentials. You don't need them if you have the data. > I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered > contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I > don't see any way you will accomplish anything. The good news about an open community is that the door swings both ways. You are free to watch it flame from afar, and then everyone on this thread will know that you told us so. You will have those credentials to us. >First because you are > not supportable and definitely not coachable. I could walk into any forum, except Utopiabuntu I guess, and level that same compaint. First I need to find one full of people who have been waiting so long for this, that they have cut to the chase and can't take anymore vague or (so far) unsibstantiated statements of purpose or direction. > Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No. Oh, I think I know this one. It's a trick question. The jerk is the one who calls an entire list full of people he's never met, spoken to, or seen a post from jerks - based on a couple of posts he may have misunderstood? Or should I scold you for even asking me such a question? How dare you doubt my knowledge of asses and holes! > OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An > enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but > he knows it. I know neither where this thread's ass (the data) is or the whole in the ground (the research techniques). So I can't tell them apart, but at least I know it. I still feel like there's something to be learned if we find either. > You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you > are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to > see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs, > rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything. I saw several requests for the numbers, which I didn't take as questioning the validity. But I know a bit about Jef and Seth, so I know they care more about the facts than the conjecture. You have to have seen the same funded studies we've seen, and you know like we know that data can be spun. > I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's > working But not to what extent, and nothing as to why. Is the Sun blueprint publicly available? If all of this was work for hire, that you cannot share, what you could easily contribute if you were still interested is where to begin in sweeping this data up ourselves. Assuming the best way to build a community is by training everyone to do everything, instead of capitalizing on a member's given strengths. >and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. ...and the stats, and the methodology...or a link, or something. Like I said, I know who you are, and I don't doubt your integrity nor do I suspect you of shilling for another project, and I would still love to know what sites/stats/metrics/methodology you are using. I believe Ubuntu has a thriving community and install base. I'd love to see that (and any other) project baselined and tracked in a consistent fashion. I don't do that for a living, so I need help. That what a community offers, right? That's why we don't tell sysadmins with Nvidia trouble to go by a book on hacking the kernel before they ask for help. I'm not big on my Hindu parables, but I have heard this one "Lead by example." --jeremy From mrguytx at austin.rr.com Fri Jun 24 01:30:54 2005 From: mrguytx at austin.rr.com (W. Guy Thomas) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:30:54 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 20:09 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein wrote: > > That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want > > our research studies. The data exists > > Where? Is it public? > > > and you can use the same sampling > > techniques > > Which were? Are those publicly available? > > > interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write > > the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do. > > This is off point. Wasn't your point that we reject ideas and > information? I've seen nothing but requests for the information. I > know who you are, and so does Google. And I don't question your > credentials. You don't need them if you have the data. > > > I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered > > contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I > > don't see any way you will accomplish anything. > > The good news about an open community is that the door swings both > ways. You are free to watch it flame from afar, and then everyone on > this thread will know that you told us so. You will have those > credentials to us. > > >First because you are > > not supportable and definitely not coachable. > > I could walk into any forum, except Utopiabuntu I guess, and level > that same compaint. First I need to find one full of people who have > been waiting so long for this, that they have cut to the chase and > can't take anymore vague or (so far) unsibstantiated statements of > purpose or direction. > > > Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No. > > Oh, I think I know this one. It's a trick question. The jerk is the > one who calls an entire list full of people he's never met, spoken to, > or seen a post from jerks - based on a couple of posts he may have > misunderstood? > > Or should I scold you for even asking me such a question? How dare you > doubt my knowledge of asses and holes! > > > OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An > > enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but > > he knows it. > > I know neither where this thread's ass (the data) is or the whole in > the ground (the research techniques). So I can't tell them apart, but > at least I know it. I still feel like there's something to be learned > if we find either. > > > You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you > > are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to > > see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs, > > rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything. > > I saw several requests for the numbers, which I didn't take as > questioning the validity. But I know a bit about Jef and Seth, so I > know they care more about the facts than the conjecture. You have to > have seen the same funded studies we've seen, and you know like we > know that data can be spun. > > > I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's > > working > > But not to what extent, and nothing as to why. Is the Sun blueprint > publicly available? If all of this was work for hire, that you cannot > share, what you could easily contribute if you were still interested > is where to begin in sweeping this data up ourselves. Assuming the > best way to build a community is by training everyone to do > everything, instead of capitalizing on a member's given strengths. > > >and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. > > ...and the stats, and the methodology...or a link, or something. > > Like I said, I know who you are, and I don't doubt your integrity nor > do I suspect you of shilling for another project, and I would still > love to know what sites/stats/metrics/methodology you are using. I > believe Ubuntu has a thriving community and install base. I'd love to > see that (and any other) project baselined and tracked in a consistent > fashion. I don't do that for a living, so I need help. That what a > community offers, right? That's why we don't tell sysadmins with > Nvidia trouble to go by a book on hacking the kernel before they ask > for help. > > I'm not big on my Hindu parables, but I have heard this one "Lead by example." > > --jeremy > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list my goodness, my first day here, but I understand this is a little out of the ordinary for this list. one thing I would have to point out is that Ubuntu is about the fastest branded product on the market since like the 30's or something, I don't have the stats here... anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in the wind. Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's not a broad sample, but I believe indicative. I will start a new thread introducing myself in a few minutes, but I wanted to comment on this, my first fedora-marketing list reception. thanks. G -- W. Guy Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jun 24 01:36:24 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:36:24 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119576984.20570.0.camel@cutter> > anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in > the wind. > Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections > to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's > not a broad sample, but I believe indicative. > I don't know how many ways I can say this but it's not a 'defection to ubuntu' That's a really bad point of view to get locked into and I'd like to discourage it. -sv From mrguytx at austin.rr.com Fri Jun 24 01:39:35 2005 From: mrguytx at austin.rr.com (W. Guy Thomas) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:39:35 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119576984.20570.0.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119576984.20570.0.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119577176.5747.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 21:36 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in > > the wind. > > Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections > > to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's > > not a broad sample, but I believe indicative. > > > > I don't know how many ways I can say this but it's not a 'defection to > ubuntu' > > That's a really bad point of view to get locked into and I'd like to > discourage it. > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list I agree semantically. -- W. Guy Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrguytx at austin.rr.com Fri Jun 24 01:50:53 2005 From: mrguytx at austin.rr.com (W. Guy Thomas) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:50:53 -0500 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <1119577855.5747.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello, my name is Guy also known as 'misfit-toy' on #fedora. An unfortunate choice of nicks made while my daughter was watching rudolph the rednose reindeer. In any case, I am joining in here at the direction of mether and quaid to bring up two web sites I have that are devoted to fedora and see what direction I should take, if any... The 1st site is http://fedorasolved.com which is what I call a 'reverse forum' in which there are no questions, only answers. Users post issues they have resolved themselves. There are no followup questions unless a 'fix' post is called into question. The 2nd site is one formed recently by a number of independent website owners such as myself in the hopes of getting some kind of cohesion amongst us 'third party' sites. http://fedorasolved.com/fccp I suppose my first question is one of authenticity? i.e. do you think these sites are valid in the eyes of fedora-marketing and should they continue as is, or change, or close? Fedorasolved is getting quite a bit of traffic lately as people pick up on it, but I have avoided 'self promotion'. Are there any plans to incorporate listings of private websites such as mine and others or are we on our own or are we stepping on toes here? Just a few starter questions. Hope to participate here. Thanks for your consideration. p.s. I am posting this identical email to fedora-docs but not cross-posting it, so if you are on both lists forgive me for the duplication. -- W. Guy Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikem at cyber.com.au Fri Jun 24 09:30:25 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:30:25 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619032208.GA7836@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119163060.7160.103.camel@cutter> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 23:30 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > You think most Linux curious want: (rest of sentence chopped) > > I make no claim as to what 'most' linux curious want. I know. That was the start of a question that you answered later on. > And i think > trying to pander to any target group, you run the very real risk of > misleading them and giving them a colored view of things. Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message to the universe? And why is it that nobody else, in the entire history or marketing theory, has ever discovered this? > Or if you > misjudge exactly what the target group wants... driving them away. Yeah, but if you misjudge what the untargeted universe wants, you'll drive them away too. Scattering bombing everyone with generic Fedora is good messages won't achieve anything. Marketing 101. > I do not want to see people walk into this community with expectations > that are skewed by aggressive focused marketing. I want people to > have a fair impression as to what to expect. The fairness of their impression has nothing to do with whether the message is targeted towards them. It has to do with us being honest with users, something which I share your views about. > I'd rather avoid the whole issue of trying to highlight the > good features. Then you'd rather avoid marketing. > But If you must ask the very qualitative question > "what is good" then i want to see the question "what is bad" being > answered at the same time. Damn straight. > I am very wary of evangelizing fedora as a > distribution for ANY target group to flock to. The Linux curious will try a Linux distro. Because they want to. Chances are, with Gentoo's screaming 'watching text scroll by makes me a Linux expert' zealots and Debian's 'troll angrily and loudly on every Fedora story on Slashdot' approach, it'll be either Debian or Gentoo. Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are? > I > would MUCH rather have a user read about fedora and feel its not the > right solution for them Totally agreed about being honest. Look at say, Codeweavers Crossover marketing. Their honesty about what Crossover can and can't do actually makes them look better. > I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential > users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and > desire" Yep, but they need to be interested enough to get the CD. > I think the website should focus on how to take "action". Yeah you could call it...getfedora.org! Let them know what the CD (and the real distro) can do, and what it can't as well. > A > website that tries to inspire interest.. It's in order. I.e., the website gets the user attention to make them try out the CD. Mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:21:36 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:21:36 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you > will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message > to the universe? Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious choice for any particular group of people or individual person. Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true alternative" in the space where its operating. Linux distributions are like breeds of dogs. How exactly do you market one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the casual dog buyer? The casual dog buyer, who doesn't really know the maintainence issues and temperament of each breed. And they only experience with pet ownership previous was a gerbil. You make a mistake and you pair a dog with an owner that is a poor match.. and it can end tragically. Popularity of a breed drives initial interest, but it also leads to a high rate of abadonment. http://www.petsandmore.ca/Vbreedinfo.html I want to make sure we don't herd people to the answers we think they want, simply because we have a vested interest in this one breed. I'd rather help people to the linux distribution that works best for them. If its not fedora.... I am perfectly okay with that. I'd rather see us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great! > Then you'd rather avoid marketing. There might be a deep truth to that. I'm intimately aware that I might be a poor fit for this part of the project. If my ideas are contrary to the momentum and direction of activities, I'll gladly fade into the background in this part of the overall fedora project effort and let others play a strongly role. > The Linux curious will try a Linux distro. Because they want to. Indeed. My issues are more about the tone of the engagement than the effort to engage. I'm wary of a goal that is narrowly defined to be "Get people interested in Fedora" I would be much happier if the goal was "Get people interested in trying linux, including Fedora" > > Chances are, with Gentoo's screaming 'watching text scroll by makes me a > Linux expert' zealots and Debian's 'troll angrily and loudly on every > Fedora story on Slashdot' approach, it'll be either Debian or Gentoo. > > Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to > Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or > one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are? This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever." I do not believe that its approprate to imply that Fedora is superior to Gentoo or to Debian. I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask questions and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to them. Fedora should be the Progressive Car Insurance Company of the linux distributions. If a linux 'competitor' is a better fit for you... great... glad to have helped you find a linux solution that works best for you. > > I think the website should focus on how to take "action". > > Yeah you could call it...getfedora.org! Let them know what the CD (and > the real distro) can do, and what it can't as well. I have no feelings about yet another domain name. My comments are directed at the tone and the content of whatever website is going to be used to interact with potential fedora users. From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 24 15:44:51 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:44:51 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 10:21:36AM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Then you'd rather avoid marketing. > There might be a deep truth to that. I'm intimately aware that I might > be a poor fit for this part of the project. If my ideas are contrary > to the momentum and direction of activities, I'll gladly fade into the > background in this part of the overall fedora project effort and let > others play a strongly role. Maybe. On the other hand, I sense a resistance to *marketing* Fedora at all -- promote the technology and we have, be straighforward about what doesn't really work, and don't particulary *worry* about *making* Fedora appeal to anyone. I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I strongly feel that it's a valid voice and shouldn't just fade into the background. > Indeed. My issues are more about the tone of the engagement than the > effort to engage. I'm wary of a goal that is narrowly defined to be "Get > people interested in Fedora" I would be much happier if the goal was "Get > people interested in trying linux, including Fedora" This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?" I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From lrolatti at racine.ra.it Fri Jun 24 14:28:46 2005 From: lrolatti at racine.ra.it (Luigi Rolatti) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:28:46 +0200 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 12, Issue 24 References: <20050623210121.77ABE73332@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <002301c578c9$0c6cbe60$0600a8c0@CECILIA> From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 24 15:58:17 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:58:17 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20050624155817.GA14268@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 11:44:51AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive. That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing". :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Jun 24 16:11:06 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:11:06 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <20050624155817.GA14268@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050624155817.GA14268@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1119629466.2471.8.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 11:58 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 11:44:51AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive. > > That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing". :) direct-to-customer marketing? hey, I know some people who send me email every night about v!agr@, c1al!5 and home m0.rtg4ge5 maybe I could ask them to help us. :) -sv From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 24 16:18:14 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:18:14 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119629466.2471.8.camel@cutter> References: <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050624155817.GA14268@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119629466.2471.8.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20050624161814.GA15525@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 12:11:06PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing". :) > direct-to-customer marketing? > hey, I know some people who send me email every night about v!agr@, > c1al!5 and home m0.rtg4ge5 > maybe I could ask them to help us. > :) Heh. Okay, honest, I'm not just tryin' to throw around buzzwords! I have a point! -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From kaboom at oobleck.net Fri Jun 24 16:57:44 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you > > will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message > > to the universe? > > Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious > choice for any particular group of people or individual person. I disagree. There are obvious niches which specific distros suit quite well (or don't fit at all, as the case may be). If you're wanting to work with SELinux, you're going to have much more success with Fedora than with SUSE Professional. If you want to recompile your system from scratch fortnightly, you're going to be much happier with Gentoo than with Fedora. And on, and on, and on. I don't think marketing Fedora should be an all-your-Linuxen-are-Fedora-or-die misinformation campaign, but I do think there's a role for and a value to positive marketing of Fedora. I think I've mentioned it before, but for one example think about the perception of Fedora amongst J. Random Linux users at your local LUG (assuming you're a LUGger). If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be about informing without being about misleading.... later, chris From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 17:04:38 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:04:38 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <604aa791050624100475e56a78@mail.gmail.com> On 6/24/05, Matthew Miller wrote: > This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in > trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?" > > I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive. I'm pretty sure i didn't mean to imply my thoughts are mutually exclusive with taking aim at certain groups. I just want to make sure the message is thought provoking instead of encouraging impulse decisions. To sum up my concerns into a simple headlines. I want to avoid blurbs like: "Fedora Linux is great! Try it now!" and i would instead prefer more open ended tone: "Is Fedora Linux right for you? Find out now!" Not to nitpick the getfirefox.com example, but i don't think the tone of the opening paragraph is appropriate for a linux distribution. the wait is over. Firefox empowers you to browse faster, more safely and more efficiently than with any other browser. Join more than 64 million others and make the switch today ? Firefox imports your Favorites, settings and other information, so you have nothing to lose. I don't think its appropriate to use the popularity of the distribution as a primary reason to encourage new users to use it. I don't think its appropriate to make bold claims as to fedora's ability to serve a new user better than other choices. The codeweaver's example is much better in terms of tone. But really.. if there were any other wine based product out there it could say nearly the same thing. There's nothing in what codeweaver's intro that even implies there are other choices in the space. I don't think thats good enough in terms of being upfront at the distribution level. We know there are other choices, we know those other choices might fit better for a particular person if the person takes the time to try out more than just fedora, and I think we need to be honest about that and make sure the tone of the site re-enforces the idea of informed choice as the ideal choice. openoffice.org's marketting pieces have some high points, certainly in terms of the formats and quality of their press material. The four page pdf and the flash intro are well done. But their peices still has a reliance of superlative language that i think is problematic when applied to the larger issue of linux distribution choice ubuntu's introduction on the other hand... is strikingly not about the specific feature of the distribution at all. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ . The first few paragraphs are about the ideals and commitments of the development model. Its a well worded description of how the project objectives relate to user expectation. Here's what the page says about desktop users. "Ubuntu is suitable for both desktop and server use." Suitable... the distribution is suitable. No effort to promise the best experience..but a promise for a suitable one. That's an underpromise, and the power of low expectations at work. -jef From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 24 17:13:18 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:13:18 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa791050624100475e56a78@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <20050624154451.GA13266@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050624100475e56a78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050624171318.GA18662@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:04:38PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in > > trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?" > > I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive. > I'm pretty sure i didn't mean to imply my thoughts are mutually > exclusive with taking aim at certain groups. I just want to make sure > the message is thought provoking instead of encouraging impulse > decisions. To sum up my concerns into a simple headlines. > I want to avoid blurbs like: > "Fedora Linux is great! Try it now!" > and i would instead prefer more open ended tone: > "Is Fedora Linux right for you? Find out now!" Indeed -- and this actually goes hand-in-hand with actually focusing on what we want to accomplish with the project -- rather than just the dropping-leaflets-from-30000-ft approach. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 17:37:53 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:37:53 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> On 6/24/05, Chris Ricker wrote: > I disagree. There are obvious niches which specific distros suit quite > well (or don't fit at all, as the case may be). If you're wanting to work > with SELinux, you're going to have much more success with Fedora than with > SUSE Professional. If you want to recompile your system from scratch > fortnightly, you're going to be much happier with Gentoo than with Fedora. > And on, and on, and on. I see your point, and I raise you a point of semantics. I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than 3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. I am wary of trying to guess as to what people who are looking at Fedora are really interested in in terms of "leading edge" technology. Example "Wanting to work with SELinux" is probably not the question the uninformed are really thinking about... do they even know what SELinux is? Its more like users who are interested in "security" in a general sense might get a kick out of Fedora because of the SELinux integration effort. Do we need to do a better job of describing some of the key features and technical objectives for Core.. surely. But I don't want to skew the discussion with pre-conceived ideas as to what the "target" audience as broad as "linux curious" is interested in. > If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch > with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora > is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be > about informing without being about misleading.... I didn't say it couldn't be.. I just want to be on guard against it. Here's a challenge for you, can you produce a rough draft of a 4 page pdf aimed at LUGers, that aims to address specific misconceptions in the LUG environments you have personally been associated with. Once we have a working draft to discuss we can get feedback from other LUGs. something similar to the openoffice 4 page brocure maybe: http://www.openoffice.org/product/docs/OOoFlyer11s.pdf -jef From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Jun 24 18:42:21 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:42:21 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050624184221.GA23303@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:37:53PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of > people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than > 3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux > because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. I am wary of I think that's because taking three users and lumping them together is going about it backwards. Instead, look at three people who *are* lumped together in some way already. Probably by some better defining factor than "novice linux users". -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 18:48:43 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:48:43 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <20050624184221.GA23303@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> <20050624184221.GA23303@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <604aa791050624114826b0c32e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/24/05, Matthew Miller wrote: > I think that's because taking three users and lumping them together is going > about it backwards. Instead, look at three people who *are* lumped together > in some way already. Probably by some better defining factor than "novice > linux users". I have no suggestions on how to do that effectively. Chris's comments about LUGers on the other hand are arguable less vague and less speculative in nature. -jef From mikem at cyber.com.au Sat Jun 25 02:16:33 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:16:33 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119665793.2419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 12:57 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote: > one example think about the perception > of Fedora amongst J. Random Linux users at your local LUG (assuming you're > a LUGger). If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch > with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora > is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be > about informing without being about misleading.... Damn good point. Mike From mikem at cyber.com.au Sat Jun 25 02:16:30 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:16:30 +1000 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119665790.2419.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:21 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you > > will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message > > to the universe? > > Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious > choice for any particular group of people or individual person. > Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum > of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to > market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a > clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true > alternative" in the space where its operating. I don't think it's the 'one true alternative either'. I think it's one of about three. End user focused Linux distros are far and few between. > How exactly do you market > one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the > casual dog buyer? You find out that user's wants and desires, and find a breed of dog that matches. Selling everyone German shepherds is a dumb idea. Selling them to people looking for police dogs makes a great deal more sense. > I'd rather see > us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and > making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or > ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great! Same here. But I want Fedora to be one of the things they try. Currently fedora.redhat.com doesn't market Fedora in any way, shape of form. In fact, it probably does the opposite, by focusing more on what it isn't than what it is. > > Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to > > Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or > > one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are? > > This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux > community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this > distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as > good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever." Why not? First time down owners require a dog that doesn't mess the house, or require too much maintenance, or whatever. Marketing a dog breed that reflects those needs is simple logic. > I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask > questions That sounds an awful lot like you want to identify a market Jeff ;^) > and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to > them. Sure - let them know there's other Linux distros. I actually think it'd be good to encourage our audience to try other distros that reflect their needs - say, Ubuntu and NLD for Linux newcomers - themselves. And let them make up their own mind. But provide the info that makes sure they're aware that Fedora will meet their needs. That it works, has testing, an isn't a beta. That it's got a simple install process, a good set of modern graphical config tools, modern, carefully selected OSS apps, a common look and feel, etc. People who appreciate such things can then know Fedora provides them. And hence, the user wins. Mike From mrguytx at austin.rr.com Sat Jun 25 02:45:49 2005 From: mrguytx at austin.rr.com (W. Guy Thomas) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:45:49 -0500 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <1119665790.2419.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050619143243.GA439@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa791050619091813682318@mail.gmail.com> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <1119665790.2419.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119667550.5747.96.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 12:16 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:21 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana wrote: > > > Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you > > > will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message > > > to the universe? > > > > Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious > > choice for any particular group of people or individual person. > > Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum > > of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to > > market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a > > clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true > > alternative" in the space where its operating. > > I don't think it's the 'one true alternative either'. I think it's one > of about three. > > End user focused Linux distros are far and few between. > > > How exactly do you market > > one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the > > casual dog buyer? > > You find out that user's wants and desires, and find a breed of dog that > matches. > > Selling everyone German shepherds is a dumb idea. Selling them to people > looking for police dogs makes a great deal more sense. > > > I'd rather see > > us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and > > making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or > > ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great! > > Same here. But I want Fedora to be one of the things they try. > > Currently fedora.redhat.com doesn't market Fedora in any way, shape of > form. In fact, it probably does the opposite, by focusing more on what > it isn't than what it is. > > > > Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to > > > Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or > > > one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are? > > > > This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux > > community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this > > distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as > > good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever." > > Why not? First time down owners require a dog that doesn't mess the > house, or require too much maintenance, or whatever. Marketing a dog > breed that reflects those needs is simple logic. > > > > I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask > > questions > > That sounds an awful lot like you want to identify a market Jeff ;^) > > > and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to > > them. > > Sure - let them know there's other Linux distros. I actually think it'd > be good to encourage our audience to try other distros that reflect > their needs - say, Ubuntu and NLD for Linux newcomers - themselves. And > let them make up their own mind. > > But provide the info that makes sure they're aware that Fedora will meet > their needs. That it works, has testing, an isn't a beta. That it's got > a simple install process, a good set of modern graphical config tools, > modern, carefully selected OSS apps, a common look and feel, etc. People > who appreciate such things can then know Fedora provides them. > > And hence, the user wins. > > Mike > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list I know i will be ostracized for this, but you guys are bantering in here about crap and nothing is being done. If you would like to participate in a mambo that I set up, then cool, hit here: http://fedorasolved.com/fccp but the rest of this 'mailing list jerk off crap' is a waste of time. I want to help, and I want to hit it and do it. By the time some 'committee' ok's anything it's already down the road and lost. then 'net is *NOW*, and you are wasting time with semantics and pissing contests. take care...I am unsubscribing....still love you all, heheh. see ya around, it's a small world. =G -- W. Guy Thomas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kaboom at oobleck.net Sat Jun 25 13:43:50 2005 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:43:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271500.3027.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050621051478c837c3@mail.gmail.com> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/24/05, Chris Ricker wrote: > I see your point, and I raise you a point of semantics. > I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of > people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than > 3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux > because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. That's the part I disagree with. There are obvious distinguishing factors between the distros which orient towards end-user desktops. Have a decision tree, find out what matters to the person, and go. "Need box set purchasable at your favorite local book store complete with printed books, and DVDs and CDs"? SUSE Pro is that way.... (and see, I even managed to avoid snide comments about SUSE's, err, lack of quality control. Positive information, not negative comparisons! ;-) "Want to try new NSA-developed security features which potentially prevent viruses and worms?" Fedora is this way.... ... The point being: there aren't many distros in the space Fedora is in. Of the ones there are, there's enough distinguishing about them to steer novice users appropriately (and if there weren't enough distinguishing them, that to me would argue that some of those distros should become extinct).... > Its more like users who are interested in "security" in a general sense > might get a kick out of Fedora because of the SELinux integration > effort. This is actually a good point, but one I take a bit differently than you. The biggest distinguisher between Fedora and the other distros in terms of what they provide to a potential customer in the same space, at least to me, is technology (there are certainly others, but that's the key one IMO). Fedora focuses much more on leading the technology and on developing and integrating cool, useful new features. That's true all over the space, not just in the security arena. GFS, Xen, free full Java stack, etc. So, the question is really: how do you market new technology to someone who has no idea what you're talking about? See below for one approach for one target group > Here's a challenge for you, can you produce a rough draft of a 4 page > pdf aimed at LUGers, that aims to address specific misconceptions in > the LUG environments you have personally been associated with. Once > we have a working draft to discuss we can get feedback from other > LUGs. something similar to the openoffice 4 page brocure maybe: > http://www.openoffice.org/product/docs/OOoFlyer11s.pdf And that, to me, would be of little value. I can't think of a time I've ever seen a flyer distributed at a LUG, other than ones produced by the LUG itself promoting LUG events like barbecues or installfests (and man, those mid-90s ALE ones sure did get just a little bit out of hand! ;-) One thing I see as being more useful for LUGs is pre-packaged presentation material for speakers. There's a lot of cool technology in Fedora that's perfect for 90-minute LUG presentations: Xen overview + demo, clustering, SELinux, LVM, etc. And LUGs usually seem to struggle for monthly presenters. Something like a talk outline + a few canned slides available to LUG presenters would help there 'cause preparing talks sucks. I'd volunteer more if I knew, hey I can go to fedora and get all the slides and a basic outline already, and then I just have to flesh them out a bit. Have the little Fedora logo (oh wait a minute, we don't have one yet ;-) on the slides, pass out live DVDs so people can play along, and let the technology and the presenter's descriptions of Fedora in the Q&A do the selling of the tech and the re-educating about Fedora.... later, chris From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Jun 25 15:14:44 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:44 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119428715.2340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062204494bc3ff0e@mail.gmail.com> <1119495571.2316.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062220305aec86e3@mail.gmail.com> <1119605425.2844.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105062407212704279e@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062410377d3ebefd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506250814b0da578@mail.gmail.com> On 6/25/05, Chris Ricker wrote: > And that, to me, would be of little value. I can't think of a time I've > ever seen a flyer distributed at a LUG, other than ones produced by the > LUG itself promoting LUG events like barbecues or installfests (and man, > those mid-90s ALE ones sure did get just a little bit out of hand! ;-) > > One thing I see as being more useful for LUGs is pre-packaged presentation > material for speakers. We have to start somewhere.... if you want to start with a draft of a presentation.. fine. I just want a draft of something as a starting point that is meant to address exactly the misinterpretations you see in the specific LUG populations around you. Create a draft, present the draft for peer review, include a summary of the specific misinterpreatations you are trying to address with the draft material. -jef From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Jun 27 00:15:05 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:15:05 +1000 Subject: 10 steps towards more effective collaboration Message-ID: <1119831305.3322.87.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Seems this link was sitting in a tab, and thought it might benefit us: http://www.itmanagersjournal.com/article.pl?sid=05/04/14/2246226 Warm regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 27 01:45:02 2005 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:45:02 -0400 Subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea. In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42B40337.3050705@cyber.com.au> <1119096176.7160.70.camel@cutter> <42B412C1.6050002@cyber.com.au> <42B4143C.4000106@redhat.com> <42B415E7.8090608@cyber.com.au> <1119098581.7160.79.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119836703.30786.12.camel@deepfort> On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 06:54 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > * The hard part isn't getting users; it's getting contributors. I think > that the marketing group should focus on the second objective as much as, > if not more than, the first objective. Maybe we need to seriously discuss the creation or tasking of developer relations to some one at this point, and start developing a sane strategy. Jack From paulds at bu.edu Mon Jun 27 02:04:22 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:04:22 -0400 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? Message-ID: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> Anyone who attended FUDCon2 care to give us a report on how things went? - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 02:07:23 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:07:23 -0400 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 22:04 -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: > Anyone who attended FUDCon2 care to give us a report on how things went? oo oo +1 I wanna know, too. and I want pictures, damn it! :) -sv From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Jun 27 02:59:49 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:59:49 +1000 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 22:07 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > and I want pictures, damn it! :) Seeing we lack video ?!? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From paulds at bu.edu Mon Jun 27 03:27:49 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:27:49 -0400 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> > Seeing we lack video ?!? Were there no recordings of the proceedings, then? Or just audio? - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:27:43 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:27:43 -0400 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action Message-ID: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Note the mild subject adjustment, uttered most notable by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry Glen Ross. Anyway, the thread needed a quick bump, I have some F/OSS marketing experience that I think I can lend. This project is getting ahead of itself re: defining discrete and ongoing roles, establishing baseline metrics, and decisions about who belongs here. There are some basic questions/assumptions you can line out first. 1a)What is Fedora?1b)Who is it for? (Today). Answered partly on the homepage nicely: "The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc." That may or may not need to change as the NPO emerges, but it doesn't answer who it's for. If it's not for the average end user, then a whole suite of distros are out for comparison. Developers, hobbyists, enthusiasts, professional IT interested in the future direction of RHEL, etc. 2)Who else is in that space? Only SuSE is built this way (community feeding and fed by a big publicly held sugare daddy with a large install base, and market cap of 3-5Billion. No, Mandriva not out of the game, and if you threw out F/OSS values you could throw Sun in mix, but it's fair to focus toeard SuSE/Novell. 3a)What is Fedora? 3b)Who is it for? (Tomorrow). Some TBD, of course, but you'd hope that if today's mission succeeds, that you'll still have Developers, hobbyists, enthusiasts, professional IT interested in the future direction of RHEL, etc. Now, if Fedora *is* to be comared to Ubuntu, the core mission would have to reflect that to a degree, and comparisons and metrics should be made. And you can add more Ubuntu-esque users. If Fedora definition were to stretch from "proving ground for Red Hat" to "proving ground for Linux Innovation" or similar, then you can add small IT companies, tech savvy internal IT staff, and even an eco system of VARs for SMB/SME -- *cough cough* -- I mean people deploying and supporting it for others. And the verbage invites spin-off projects. (Still seen as to Red Hat's benefit). #3 is what needs rounding out before you decide you goes out saying what to whom, and in what medium. When you get through 3, you need only two more: 4) So what? What is unique and/or important about feature x, or relationship y? If I agree that I understand Fedora, and that it is for me -- so what? Every line of you PR, and every slide in your deck has to answer that question, or it's noise. 5) Who cares? You now have your sniper shot of a message. You can stand up, in confidence, and explain what Fedora is, and articulate what it is not. (And why Ubuntu is them, and you is you.) You add that to the answer to part b, of question3, and you no who this should resonate with. And you go after events, and online venues where they are and talk to them. Or when the come to where you are, they know quickly whether and how they fit in. No dancing, no marketing buzzwords. Recruit active participants, but you should be open as many interested onlookers as possible. 4 and 5 have potential for looping. %POST Then... -FAQ the hell out of 1-5 on -use PRWeb or a similar free service regularly (not feature releases, more like "Fedora guy writes free book in native language" type stuff, create news -- recognition is a core human need, get lots of it and attract lots of folks) -press contacts (invite a NewsForge editor to an exclusive at FudCON, send the LiveCD out for reviewers -- I like the documentary idea, but there's only so much of our collective navel the world needs to gaze into, give the project a broader context) -a media kit (zip file of the logo, the About statement, and ONE sheet giving the FAQ and spiel, contact info for one/two people at the most to follow up with) -an event or street team "SWAT" kit (swag like LiveString bracelets and LiveCDs) -etc --jeremy From agk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 16:32:12 2005 From: agk at redhat.com (Alasdair G Kergon) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:32:12 +0100 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:27:49PM -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: > Were there no recordings of the proceedings, then? Or just audio? A few bits will have made it onto the marketing video (hand-held roaming camera). Michael Kleinhenz (responsible for LinuxTag Marketing) recorded an excellent 30min Q&A about Fedora & the Fedora Foundation etc. Once it's been edited, he says he'll put it onto the LinuxTag website and it'll end up on the next LinuxTag DVD. The slides from my talk are at: http://people.redhat.com/agk/talks/linuxtag_2005/ Does someone on this list have access to update http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/ with a link to them? Alasdair -- agk at redhat.com From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 17:31:15 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:31:15 -0400 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1119893475.24016.0.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 17:32 +0100, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: > On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:27:49PM -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: > > Were there no recordings of the proceedings, then? Or just audio? > > A few bits will have made it onto the marketing video (hand-held > roaming camera). > > Michael Kleinhenz (responsible for LinuxTag Marketing) recorded an > excellent 30min Q&A about Fedora & the Fedora Foundation etc. > Once it's been edited, he says he'll put it onto the LinuxTag website > and it'll end up on the next LinuxTag DVD. > > The slides from my talk are at: > http://people.redhat.com/agk/talks/linuxtag_2005/ > > Does someone on this list have access to update > http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/ > with a link to them? I do. yes. -sv From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 17:36:09 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:36:09 -0400 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action In-Reply-To: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05062710366990be2d@mail.gmail.com> Jeepers. My apologies for the rampant typos. I drove 12 hours from NY last night, and should have been sleeping instead of typing. --jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 19:14:25 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So there's not that much. Some T-shirts, some coffee mugs. Here's an idea I had: A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks wore in high school. We'd sell them from the store, but more importantly, we'd give them away as rewards to folks in the Fedora community who have been carrying one load or another. I think it could be fun. Of course, I've got a lot of ideas. What do you guys think? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jkeating at j2solutions.net Mon Jun 27 19:23:58 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:23:58 -0700 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks > wore in > high school. > > We'd sell them from the store, but more importantly, we'd give them > away > as rewards to folks in the Fedora community who have been carrying > one > load or another. Do we get 'letters' for the releases we've participated in? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 19:55:55 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks > > wore in high school. > > Do we get 'letters' for the releases we've participated in? I'm *so* glad you asked. That is *exactly* what I'd like to do. See, anybody can buy the jacket, because it's cool. But the *really* cool kids can letter in stuff, and get their letter pins presented directly by the Fedora folks. That way, when folks come to FUDCon, they can tell who the BMOCs are. Jesse knows what I'm talkin' 'bout. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From patpaul at MIT.EDU Mon Jun 27 19:56:58 2005 From: patpaul at MIT.EDU (Patrick Paul) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:56:58 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42C05A0A.90704@mit.edu> And the beta releases will of course be the JV team. You know what this means, don't you? We finally get cheerleaders. Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >>A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks >>wore in >>high school. >> >>We'd sell them from the store, but more importantly, we'd give them >>away >>as rewards to folks in the Fedora community who have been carrying >>one >>load or another. > > > Do we get 'letters' for the releases we've participated in? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Patrick Paul patpaul at mit.edu From jkeating at j2solutions.net Mon Jun 27 20:07:31 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:07:31 -0700 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119902851.29523.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:55 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I'm *so* glad you asked. That is *exactly* what I'd like to do. Glad I could help. > See, anybody can buy the jacket, because it's cool. But the *really* > cool > kids can letter in stuff, and get their letter pins presented directly > by > the Fedora folks. That way, when folks come to FUDCon, they can tell > who > the BMOCs are. BMOC ? Oh, Big (this should be person)Man on Campus > Jesse knows what I'm talkin' 'bout. :) Just because I have a highschool letterman's jacket with a lot of sports letters (and a couple math team ones) doesn't mean anything.... -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 20:12:34 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:12:34 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So there's not that much. Some T-shirts, some coffee mugs. Here's an > idea I had: > > A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks wore in > high school. Now see i was thinking Fedora boy scout uniform, shorts and all.. with merit badges. -jef"how ironic is it.. that there is no irony merit badge?"spaleta From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 20:18:50 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/27/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > So there's not that much. Some T-shirts, some coffee mugs. Here's an > > idea I had: > > > > A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks wore in > > high school. > > Now see i was thinking Fedora boy scout uniform, shorts and all.. with > merit badges. Which one will get you more chicks/dudes -- the Fedora boy/girl scout sash with merit badges, or the Fedora letterman's jacket with varsity letter pins? (The previous sentence was edited for political correctness, which appears to have made it even funnier and more sublimely ludicrous.) If enough people think that this idea makes any sense, I *will* make it happen. --g"equipment manager"dk _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 20:28:14 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:28:14 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 16:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On 6/27/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > > So there's not that much. Some T-shirts, some coffee mugs. Here's an > > > idea I had: > > > > > > A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks wore in > > > high school. > > > > Now see i was thinking Fedora boy scout uniform, shorts and all.. with > > merit badges. > > Which one will get you more chicks/dudes -- the Fedora boy/girl scout sash > with merit badges, or the Fedora letterman's jacket with varsity letter > pins? > > (The previous sentence was edited for political correctness, which appears > to have made it even funnier and more sublimely ludicrous.) > > If enough people think that this idea makes any sense, I *will* make it > happen. With no offense to anyone/anything who likes this idea - how about we focus on things like hw and resources for time? Then again, if those things come out of a different pile of money of however that works then, by all means, get whatever doodad people like. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 20:41:49 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > With no offense to anyone/anything who likes this idea - how about we > focus on things like hw and resources for time? No offense taken. This is a simple idea, dreamed up in the middle of a delirious 22 hours worth of travel, with a very simple plan of execution, aimed at recruitment, fun, and recognition. Completely orthogonal to questions of hardware and resources, which we continue to work on. And since you brought it up: what hardware issues are we not focusing adequately on? Seems like we've now got build systems of every arch in Mesa, and will now work towards getting them online, yes? What are we missing? > Then again, if those things come out of a different pile of money of > however that works then, by all means, get whatever doodad people like. I'll put that in the category of "grudging assent". :) Anyone else? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 20:47:36 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:47:36 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119905257.28347.4.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 16:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > With no offense to anyone/anything who likes this idea - how about we > > focus on things like hw and resources for time? > > No offense taken. > > This is a simple idea, dreamed up in the middle of a delirious 22 hours > worth of travel, with a very simple plan of execution, aimed at > recruitment, fun, and recognition. > > Completely orthogonal to questions of hardware and resources, which we > continue to work on. And since you brought it up: what hardware issues > are we not focusing adequately on? Seems like we've now got build systems > of every arch in Mesa, and will now work towards getting them online, yes? > What are we missing? well all access to the machines at mesa has to go through someone with @redhat.com after their username. so as far as extras build systems are concerned, I'm out. -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 20:48:48 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:18:48 +0530 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42C06630.4060005@redhat.com> Hi >>Then again, if those things come out of a different pile of money of >>however that works then, by all means, get whatever doodad people like. >> >> > >I'll put that in the category of "grudging assent". :) Anyone else? > >--g > I believe a redesign of the website should be a fairly important thing to do. We should also consider having a competition for the default desktop wallpaper, sound themes, etc for the FC5 release. Any decisions on whether we need a new Fedora logo?. Just putting this is in so that it doesnt get lost again regards Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 20:51:26 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119905257.28347.4.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> <1119905257.28347.4.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > well all access to the machines at mesa has to go through someone with > @redhat.com after their username. > > so as far as extras build systems are concerned, I'm out. I'll look into this and get back to you. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:01:08 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:01:08 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <42C06630.4060005@redhat.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> <42C06630.4060005@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105062714016a3ac3c9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I believe a redesign of the website should be a fairly important thing > to do. you mean the fedora.redhat.com site? or something new? > We should also consider having a competition for the default > desktop wallpaper, sound themes, etc for the FC5 release. +1, but i'd say limit it to just the desktop wallpaper the first time around. I'll re-iterate my previous idea. Have a competition with a pre-defined panel of expert judges. The experts come up with a theme for the competition and review in-coming submissions for basic good taste and technical merit. The panel of judges picks a winner, and then takes the top 10 or so runner up submissions and places them in public competition for community's choice. The official winner is used as the default background and the community's choice is provided as an alternative selection. -jef -jef From kwade at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 21:07:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:07:59 -0700 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 16:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > If enough people think that this idea makes any sense, I *will* make it > happen. That's a big 10-4 +1 from me, good buddy. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 21:22:14 2005 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:22:14 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062714016a3ac3c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119904094.28347.2.camel@cutter> <42C06630.4060005@redhat.com> <604aa79105062714016a3ac3c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119907335.3510.42.camel@bree.local.net> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 17:01 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/27/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > We should also consider having a competition for the default > > desktop wallpaper, sound themes, etc for the FC5 release. > > +1, but i'd say limit it to just the desktop wallpaper the first time > around. I'll re-iterate my previous idea. Have a competition with a > pre-defined panel of expert judges. The experts come up with a theme > for the competition and review in-coming submissions for basic good > taste and technical merit. The panel of judges picks a winner, and > then takes the top 10 or so runner up submissions and places them in > public competition for community's choice. The official winner is used > as the default background and the community's choice is provided as an > alternative selection. ... or actually, the first contest we really need is for a logo. Even I can make up a background if we get an okay logo. This was also one of the top things that was brought up during the BOF at the Red Hat Summit. Unfortunately, my "whiteboard" page from that appears to have been lost somewhere between New Orleans and here :/ Jeremy From lxmaier at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:45:19 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:45:19 +0200 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> A great idea indeed, but it wil only pull in the States. I'm trying to think of something cool that would work outside of US context... Just brainstorming around pins and jackets some more--I see a black jacket in punk-rocker look studded with pins and buttons of all sorts and sizes, some of which would be available for all, while others would have to be earned... a On 6/27/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 16:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > > If enough people think that this idea makes any sense, I *will* make it > > happen. > > That's a big 10-4 +1 from me, good buddy. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > > > BodyID:25406898.2.n.logpart (stored separately) > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 21:54:39 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:54:39 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 23:45 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > A great idea indeed, but it wil only pull in the States. I'm trying to > think of something cool that would work outside of US context... > > Just brainstorming around pins and jackets some more--I see a black > jacket in punk-rocker look studded with pins and buttons of all sorts > and sizes, some of which would be available for all, while others > would have to be earned... > I have a crazy idea: how about we stop coming up with crap to give people and maybe, you know, just be appreciative and remove roadblocks to further work. To spend less time on the tchotchke and more time on the content. I'm thinking take all the money for jackets and get some alternative-build-arch machines so the people who are packaging things for extras with no access to the systems can build there. Fine, maybe they can't be at rh for security concerns, but I might be able to host them at duke. Or maybe get some more folks doing some infrastructure bits and being paid for a month or so to get it done. Or get some CD/DVD's burnt and mailing out to random people who might request them. Anyway - I think it'd be more constructive to follow out those paths and to use whatever resources fedora has available to it for that end rather than 'letterman' jackets. I hated have to put up with the useless cool kids in the letterman jackets in high school, I don't intend to start to do it now. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 27 21:56:14 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Alex Maier wrote: > A great idea indeed, but it wil only pull in the States. I'm trying to > think of something cool that would work outside of US context... > > Just brainstorming around pins and jackets some more--I see a black > jacket in punk-rocker look studded with pins and buttons of all sorts > and sizes, some of which would be available for all, while others > would have to be earned... If you like the general idea, then we could come up with 2 or 3 designs for jackets that would play to various demos. The pins, however, should be for achievers only, IMHO. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From lxmaier at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 21:59:38 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:59:38 +0200 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d27050627145941642c72@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > If you like the general idea, then we could come up with 2 or 3 designs > for jackets that would play to various demos. The pins, however, should > be for achievers only, IMHO. :) yeah, or donors. the bigger the button, the larger the donation :) -- Get Firefox today! http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/switch.html From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 22:01:23 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:01:23 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05062715017a72ecdc@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Now see i was thinking Fedora boy scout uniform, shorts and all.. with > > merit badges. > > Which one will get you more chicks/dudes -- the Fedora boy/girl scout sash > with merit badges, or the Fedora letterman's jacket with varsity letter > pins? I think both are equally likely to get you punched in a bar. Maybe Alex's studded punk jacket would be better. Seriously, the varity jackets we did for the Road Tour were awesome. I would vote +1 as special gifts. --jeremy From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 22:08:14 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:08:14 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119910094.28347.18.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 17:54 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 23:45 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > > A great idea indeed, but it wil only pull in the States. I'm trying to > > think of something cool that would work outside of US context... > > > > Just brainstorming around pins and jackets some more--I see a black > > jacket in punk-rocker look studded with pins and buttons of all sorts > > and sizes, some of which would be available for all, while others > > would have to be earned... > > > > I have a crazy idea: > > how about we stop coming up with crap to give people and maybe, you > know, just be appreciative and remove roadblocks to further work. > > To spend less time on the tchotchke and more time on the content. > > I'm thinking take all the money for jackets and get some > alternative-build-arch machines so the people who are packaging things > for extras with no access to the systems can build there. Fine, maybe > they can't be at rh for security concerns, but I might be able to host > them at duke. Or maybe get some more folks doing some infrastructure > bits and being paid for a month or so to get it done. Or get some > CD/DVD's burnt and mailing out to random people who might request them. > > > Anyway - I think it'd be more constructive to follow out those paths and > to use whatever resources fedora has available to it for that end rather > than 'letterman' jackets. > > I hated have to put up with the useless cool kids in the letterman > jackets in high school, I don't intend to start to do it now. So it was pointed out to me that this was really way too harsh a way of saying it. I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings. It wasn't my intent. a better phrasing of this might be: if we have a finite sum of money then it might best less beneficial to spend it on cosmetic things than on issues that have been chronically plaguing some of the development efforts. Again, I'm sorry if it sounded mean. I didn't have any malicious intent but sometimes I suck at saying things. -sv From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 22:06:34 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:06:34 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <556f970a050627150650db11c0@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, seth vidal wrote: > I'm thinking take all the money for jackets and get some > alternative-build-arch machines so the people who are packaging things > for extras with no access to the systems can build there. I think the original idea was that you would sell some of these, which off sets the costs and may even add proceeds to the project if you do it right. I doubt the cost of the handful of gift jackets is going to get you any equipment. What's the trade-off/balance? You can't spend every resource on technology nor on messaging. I think funding for infrastructure is a seperate discussion than marketing, and neither shoould be at the expense of the other. --jeremy From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Mon Jun 27 22:09:55 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:55 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <556f970a050627150650db11c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> <556f970a050627150650db11c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119910195.28347.20.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 18:06 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 6/27/05, seth vidal wrote: > > > I'm thinking take all the money for jackets and get some > > alternative-build-arch machines so the people who are packaging things > > for extras with no access to the systems can build there. > > I think the original idea was that you would sell some of these, which > off sets the costs and may even add proceeds to the project if you do > it right. I doubt the cost of the handful of gift jackets is going to > get you any equipment. > > What's the trade-off/balance? You can't spend every resource on > technology nor on messaging. I think funding for infrastructure is a > seperate discussion than marketing, and neither shoould be at the > expense of the other. except if there is a single pot of money - and especially when we're still in the 'ramping up' portion of the community interaction part. -sv From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Tue Jun 28 01:24:53 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:24:53 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506271312e17b4a@mail.gmail.com> <1119906479.22136.255.camel@erato.phig.org> <7f617d27050627144567f2ba0b@mail.gmail.com> <1119909279.28347.12.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119921893.2970.9.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 17:54 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > Anyway - I think it'd be more constructive to follow out those paths and > to use whatever resources fedora has available to it for that end rather > than 'letterman' jackets. > > I hated have to put up with the useless cool kids in the letterman > jackets in high school, I don't intend to start to do it now. Although there's a lot of rant in this post, this is a point to keep in mind. If the community understands the inherent joke in them, letterman gift jackets could be a nice humorous way of honoring certain people. But it could easily backfire and give the impression of exclusivity and make people feel they're not in the "in crowd". Probably timing is important in order to give the proper impression. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Jun 28 03:14:07 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:14:07 -0400 Subject: reports from FUDCon2? In-Reply-To: <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> References: <20050627020422.GD30952@prozac.horde.com> <1119838044.4982.63.camel@cutter> <1119841189.3322.106.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <20050627032749.GF30952@prozac.horde.com> <20050627163212.GB4203@agk.surrey.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1119928447.32387.18.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 17:32 +0100, Alasdair G Kergon wrote: > On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:27:49PM -0400, Paul Stauffer wrote: > > Were there no recordings of the proceedings, then? Or just audio? > > A few bits will have made it onto the marketing video (hand-held > roaming camera). > > Michael Kleinhenz (responsible for LinuxTag Marketing) recorded an > excellent 30min Q&A about Fedora & the Fedora Foundation etc. > Once it's been edited, he says he'll put it onto the LinuxTag website > and it'll end up on the next LinuxTag DVD. > > The slides from my talk are at: > http://people.redhat.com/agk/talks/linuxtag_2005/ > > Does someone on this list have access to update > http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/ > with a link to them? done. -sv From mikem at cyber.com.au Tue Jun 28 07:03:52 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:03:52 +1000 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action In-Reply-To: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 11:27 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > 1a)What is Fedora?1b)Who is it for? (Today). Yes. > > Answered partly on the homepage nicely: > > "The Fedora Project is an open source project No. That's the Fedora Project. Not Fedora the distro. Which isn't being marketed at all. > Developers, hobbyists, > enthusiasts, professional IT interested in the future direction of > RHEL, etc. Sounds like a good audience. I'd add the 'Linux curious' to that space. > 2)Who else is in that space? > > Only SuSE is built this way (community feeding and fed by a big > publicly held sugare daddy with a large install base, and market cap > of 3-5Billion. Is Suse really that community fed? From discussion here, I'd say Ubuntu is the distro closest to Fedora - both distros aim for the 'ordinary person who may or may not have unix experience' market without the whole 'not being Unix' of Lindows. Community based, but with some corporate backing, tho Canonical is tiny compared to Red Hat. > And you can add more Ubuntu-esque users. If Fedora definition > were to stretch from "proving ground for Red Hat" to "proving ground > for Linux Innovation" or similar, then you can add small IT companies, > tech savvy internal IT staff, and even an eco system of VARs for > SMB/SME -- *cough cough* -- I mean people deploying and supporting it > for others. And the verbage invites spin-off projects. (Still seen as > to Red Hat's benefit). Indeed. Many folk use Fedora in this space already - they're happy with the 2 years of community support. Mike From byte at aeon.com.my Tue Jun 28 08:02:06 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:02:06 +1000 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:55 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > See, anybody can buy the jacket, because it's cool. But the *really* > cool > kids can letter in stuff, and get their letter pins presented directly > by > the Fedora folks. That way, when folks come to FUDCon, they can tell > who > the BMOCs are. Love the idea, whats a BMOC? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 09:15:19 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:15:19 -0700 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1119950119.5401.22.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 18:02 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > Love the idea, whats a BMOC? Big Man On Campus Mid-20th century originating US idiomatic acronym for persons recognized on a school campus as being at the top of the pecking order/social ladder. Most often used for athletes, a.k.a. jocks. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 09:29:25 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:29:25 -0700 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action In-Reply-To: <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> Message-ID: <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:03 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 11:27 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > 1a)What is Fedora?1b)Who is it for? (Today). > > Yes. > > > > Answered partly on the homepage nicely: > > > > "The Fedora Project is an open source project > > No. That's the Fedora Project. Not Fedora the distro. Which isn't being > marketed at all. !!! Semantic Distinction Alert !!! The term "Fedora" is used in both ways, colloquially. Sometimes it is the overall project being referred to, and sometimes it's the distro (Core). In documentation, I get to be pedantic and insist that we say the Fedora Project or Fedora Core and not Fedora. It is otherwise confusing, and confusion is the opposite of good documentation. Still, there are some who disagree, saying it is awkward to always use the full term. At the minimum, we need to be consistent in usage within the document itself. Are we going to try to police this usage? HA HA HA HA HA At least, amongst ourselves, we can be more careful about usage. Now we x2 as many questions to answer 1a^1) What is the Fedora Project? 1b^1) Who is it for right now? 1a^2) What is Fedora Core? 1b^2) Who is it for right now? Notice that the answers *are* different. For example: 1a^1) [insert blurb from fedora.redhat.com] 1b^1) The Fedora Project is a superset and controller of Fedora Core, containing multiple, community run projects. It is not necessary to even care about the Project to be a user of Core. The reverse is not true. 1a^2) Fedora Core is a community distribution of the Linux operating system that focuses on leading edge technology and pioneering development. Stable releases are supported by the community for two years. This community is growing strongly.[1] 1b^2) Primarily for technology enthusiasts, Fedora Core is also seeing heavy adoption by the Linux curious. These curious are described as users from other OS paradigms who are new to Linux. [1] Yeah, I know, conjecture, in marketing-speak too! So, by using different values of "Fedora", I could be discussing what is and who for about documentation, the new directory server project, Extras, and so forth. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 13:33:35 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: "Big Man on Campus". --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 15:55 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > See, anybody can buy the jacket, because it's cool. But the *really* > > cool > > kids can letter in stuff, and get their letter pins presented directly > > by > > the Fedora folks. That way, when folks come to FUDCon, they can tell > > who > > the BMOCs are. > > Love the idea, whats a BMOC? > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 13:45:09 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:45:09 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0506280645307e3846@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > A Fedora letterman's jacket. You know, like the one all the jocks wore in > high school. I think this idea is fun, but flawed. Letterman jackets are a great image (think competition, champions, popular kids) and are great recognition tools. They invoke a sense of belonging and achievement in the same way the green jacket does for the Masters, yellow jersey for guys named Lance Armstrong, etc. However, as a promotional tool, I think it's the wrong direction. It sets a tone of inclusion, and possibly exclusion. Sure, people can look up to the "lettermen," but it's only a matter of time before people feel like they're being put into lockers. This is only due in part to the demographics of Linux. Being involved in LUGs and LUG-like orgs, I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to make intelligent discussion accessible. Schwag/swag/whatever is supposed to achieve that goal, but varsity jackets don't fit the profile. Matt Frye Class of '93 "Letterman" in band and debate. From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 13:58:45 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:58:45 -0400 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action In-Reply-To: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050628065858c189ec@mail.gmail.com> On 6/27/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Note the mild subject adjustment, uttered most notable by Alec Baldwin > in Glengarry Glen Ross. Another GGR reference seems appropriate... "It takes brass...to sell...." > If Fedora definition were to stretch from "proving ground for Red Hat"... Should be played down if we want the community to feel the Fedora love. > ...to "proving ground for Linux Innovation"... Played up for the same effect. > 4) So what? The most powerful of questions, but can we answer it? What's the value of Fedora to the user/developer/etc? What consideration does that crowd get? Are we interested in providing any consideration beyond, "You can see our code, and that's inherently awesome, although admittedly not vertical in any way." > Recruit active participants, but you should be open as many interested onlookers as > possible. +1. Yes, recruit active participants, but make it accessible. No more RTFM, self-righteous bullsh*t. > -use PRWeb or a similar free service regularly (not feature releases, > more like "Fedora guy writes free book in native language" type stuff, We need to go one step further. Encourage it. Bounty for it. S*wag for it. Recognition, not simply promotion. > -press contacts (invite a NewsForge editor to an exclusive at FudCON, > send the LiveCD out for reviewers I'm on the ed board at LinuxWorld. How can I be of service to Fedora? > there's only so much of our collective navel the world needs to gaze > into, give the project a broader context) It's called Revolution OS, and I already saw it. > -a media kit (zip file of the logo, the About statement, and ONE sheet > giving the FAQ and spiel, contact info for one/two people at the most > to follow up with) +1 Matt Frye From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 15:22:57 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So here's the meat of the argument: On the one hand, you want to recognize people. Why? * To thank them for their achievements. * To hold them up to the world as exemplary. * To encourage others to follow their example. But on the other hand, such recognition is inherently exclusionary -- because some achieve, and some don't. The letterman's jacket is, I see clearly now, too highly charged for too many people. I liked the idea because of the "geeks inherit the earth" message, all the way down to the letterman jackets, but I see clearly that it's too easily misinterpreted, and as much as I'd like to disagree, I can't. Still, I think that the notion of pins/letters/merit badges/etc. is a good one, and I would argue that it *should* be exclusionary. Either you earned it, or you didn't. So maybe just the pins, awarded for excellence. Wear them on your Fedora ballcap brim, or your T-shirt, or hanging from your pierced left nipple. How does that idea feel to people? A bit less ugly-clique-ish? *** As an aside: to me, this is the real value of this group -- discussing ideas like this. Figuring out "all of the messaging behind Fedora" is a strategic problem that will take time to figure out. But working out tactical questions like "better schwag" and "names for FC5" and "fund-raising activities" is an ideal use of this group's time, IMHO. So thanks for all of your helpful input. Thanks even to Seth for the public ass-whipping. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 15:31:52 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:31:52 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506280831724f6db9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So maybe just the pins, awarded for excellence. Wear them on your Fedora > ballcap brim, or your T-shirt, or hanging from your pierced left nipple. > How does that idea feel to people? A bit less ugly-clique-ish? As long as each pin or merit badge comes with defense and attacks statistics... so you can use them to battle against other fedora contributors at conferences or bars. Or, if the badges and pins have to be collected to unlock the secret gps co-ordinates of the Fedora Core Steering Committee Conference Room. -jef From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Jun 28 16:13:27 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:13:27 -0700 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:22 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So maybe just the pins, awarded for excellence. Wear them on your > Fedora > ballcap brim, or your T-shirt, or hanging from your pierced left > nipple. > How does that idea feel to people? A bit less ugly-clique-ish? Here is an idea. Contributers get red felt Fedoras that are currently available. Each distribution they participate in earns them a new rather decent (not crappy) looking versioned pin for the (rawhide) band on the fedora. Specific project leaders get a specific pin as well, like a big 'Extras' pin for Seth and such. Red Fedoras are rather noticeable in a crowd, and there is no mistaking what project you come from, and then the pins have a certain reference and meaning. Thoughts? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 16:16:38 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Jesse Keating wrote: > Here is an idea. Contributers get red felt Fedoras that are currently > available. > > Each distribution they participate in earns them a new rather decent > (not crappy) looking versioned pin for the (rawhide) band on the fedora. > Specific project leaders get a specific pin as well, like a big 'Extras' > pin for Seth and such. > > Red Fedoras are rather noticeable in a crowd, and there is no mistaking > what project you come from, and then the pins have a certain reference > and meaning. > > Thoughts? Will people object to the red hat? Or do people crave that red hat? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 16:19:17 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:49:17 +0530 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <42C17885.9000306@redhat.com> Hi >Will people object to the red hat? Or do people crave that red hat? > >--g > > Red Hat's are cool of course ;-) but I would prefer having Fedora having its own branding regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 16:20:12 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:20:12 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <604aa79105062809205ad4112e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > Here is an idea. Contributers get red felt Fedoras that are currently > available. I'm not particularly excited about 'officially' reusing those "red" hats since they have been used previously for other promotional endeavors. I'm also not sure how much of an upfront cost issuing every contributor a hat or anything else is going to end up being. Of course if you mean each contributor is free to get their own hat of whatever color and shape and this is just a suggestion as to which hat each person should prefer getting for themselves... instead of trying to issue each contributor a hat in an official way,then no problem. -jef"off to get his Imperial Star Destroyer bridge uniform out of the closet and replace the plastic colored bars with Fedora merit pins"spaleta From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 16:21:00 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:21:00 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05062809211fd02c53@mail.gmail.com> > The letterman's jacket is...too highly charged...[but] I would argue that it *should* be exclusionary. If that's a correct paraphrase, then I agree with you, Greg. Something original, such as a pin or badge, is a classy idea. Especially when associated with some level of excellence or skill that has proved to benefit Fedora. In that case, in/exclusion (maybe a better word is distinction) is positive. > Wear them on your Fedora ballcap brim... Maybe first you get the special cap, then the first award pin, second award pin, and so on. Then we get that merit badge feel, without the politics. If people want to involve their nipples, that's their call. :-P MPF From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 16:27:03 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <42C17885.9000306@redhat.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> <42C17885.9000306@redhat.com> Message-ID: > Red Hat's are cool of course ;-) but I would prefer having Fedora having > its own branding I'd love to make it a blue fedora, myself. But that idea continues to go over like a fart in church. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 16:59:39 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:59:39 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119975207.2778.59.camel@yoda.loki.me> <42C17885.9000306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105062809592fe7fc64@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I'd love to make it a blue fedora, myself. But that idea continues to go > over like a fart in church. Give me a list of people who need "convincing", and I'll send my uncle Nikko over for a re-education session. -jef From katzj at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 17:05:39 2005 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:22 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > As an aside: to me, this is the real value of this group -- discussing > ideas like this. Figuring out "all of the messaging behind Fedora" is a > strategic problem that will take time to figure out. But working out > tactical questions like "better schwag" and "names for FC5" and > "fund-raising activities" is an ideal use of this group's time, IMHO. ... and how to get a logo :) Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? Jeremy From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Jun 28 17:22:13 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:22:13 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05062809211fd02c53@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05062809211fd02c53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1119979333.3274.11.camel@cutter> > > Wear them on your Fedora ballcap brim... > > Maybe first you get the special cap, then the first award pin, second > award pin, and so on. Then we get that merit badge feel, without the > politics. If people want to involve their nipples, that's their call. > :-P My suggestions for recognizing people that contribute: - send them an email - a personal email thanking them for their contribution. - see about bringing them along to a conference - make them feel like they aren't "outside" of the process. Then you'll recognize the fedora contributors b/c they're the people responding to emails on lists and checking in packages and code. They're the ones who are excited and pleased to be involved. That's how you'll recognize them, that's how they'll stand out in a crowd. :) -sv From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 18:08:42 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:08:42 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119979333.3274.11.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05062809211fd02c53@mail.gmail.com> <1119979333.3274.11.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05062811085a18612c@mail.gmail.com> > - send them an email - a personal email thanking them for their > contribution. +1. I see this happen from time to time in other groups. > - see about bringing them along to a conference Unlikely. I'll leave it at that. > - make them feel like they aren't "outside" of the process. Intangible, but I agree nonetheless. MPF From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 21:05:42 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:05:42 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/05, Jeremy Katz wrote: > ... and how to get a logo :) > > Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? You want a logo? YOU WANT A LOGO!?! I got your logo right HERE! http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Scapegoat.png -jef"i'm going to remove inkscape from my system now... to avoid causing any further harm "spaleta From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 21:22:57 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:52:57 +0530 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C1BFB1.6050207@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >On 6/28/05, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > >>... and how to get a logo :) >> >>Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? >> >> > > >You want a logo? YOU WANT A LOGO!?! >I got your logo right HERE! > >http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Scapegoat.png > >-jef"i'm going to remove inkscape from my system now... to avoid >causing any further harm "spaleta > Thats it. Thats exactly what I wanted. Maybe we should threaten people about making this official to provide them incentives to do a "better" one regards Rahul From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Jun 28 21:27:46 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:27:46 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <42C1BFB1.6050207@redhat.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> <42C1BFB1.6050207@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1119994066.3274.56.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 02:52 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > >On 6/28/05, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > > > >>... and how to get a logo :) > >> > >>Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? > >> > >> > > > > > >You want a logo? YOU WANT A LOGO!?! > >I got your logo right HERE! > > > >http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Scapegoat.png > > > >-jef"i'm going to remove inkscape from my system now... to avoid > >causing any further harm "spaleta > > > Thats it. Thats exactly what I wanted. Maybe we should threaten people > about making this official to provide them incentives to do a "better" one > I can put it up on the front of fedoraproject.org :) Would that be a threat? Maybe I'll make it my signature and send html-only mail :) -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Jun 28 21:28:24 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:58:24 +0530 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119994066.3274.56.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> <42C1BFB1.6050207@redhat.com> <1119994066.3274.56.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <42C1C0F8.7000603@redhat.com> Hi >>I can put it up on the front of fedoraproject.org :) Would that be a >>threat? >> >> Yes. go for it >Maybe I'll make it my signature and send html-only mail :) > >-sv > > Please dont regards Rahul From cnegus at mwt.net Tue Jun 28 21:44:30 2005 From: cnegus at mwt.net (Chris Negus) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:44:30 -0500 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119994066.3274.56.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> <42C1BFB1.6050207@redhat.com> <1119994066.3274.56.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1119995070.29568.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:27 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > Maybe I'll make it my signature and send html-only mail :) // /..\ / \__/--------/ ()\/ /\ /\ / \ / \ Good idea. No need to use HTML, though. I'm glad that, after several failed attempts, I can finally contribute something concrete to the Fedora Project. (I think I still need to work on the hat a bit.) -- Chris Negus From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 01:05:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:35:07 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews Message-ID: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> Hi Check out these reviews of Fedora Core 4. http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Fedora_Core_4_Reviews http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2005/6/28/prodit/11304408&sec=prodit If you would like to respond to them with your feedback, feel free to do so. regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Jun 29 01:36:12 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:36:12 +1000 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews In-Reply-To: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> References: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 06:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2005/6/28/prodit/11304408&sec=prodit I'm taking care of this one... Going to be able to talk to the editor up close & personal in a day or so -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 02:12:15 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:42:15 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews In-Reply-To: <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <42C2037F.5070801@redhat.com> Colin Charles wrote: >On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 06:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2005/6/28/prodit/11304408&sec=prodit >> >> > >I'm taking care of this one... Going to be able to talk to the editor up >close & personal in a day or so > > Ok. Great. Do let him know that cdrecord doesnt require such weird options anymore. cdrecord --dev=// / would work fine and has been that way since FC2 This is documented in the release notes from FC2 onwards regards Rahul / From ditesh at ameba6.com Wed Jun 29 04:05:06 2005 From: ditesh at ameba6.com (Ditesh) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:05:06 +0800 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews In-Reply-To: <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1120017906.3700.19.camel@cassini.gathani.org> > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 06:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2005/6/28/prodit/11304408&sec=prodit > > I'm taking care of this one... Going to be able to talk to the editor up > close & personal in a day or so Ah, saw this in the local papers yesterday. To put it bluntly, the author's past articles have been bad (factual errors, overall quality of review is not too good etc) even though the OSS series is actually meant to be positive about FOSS software. We could complain to the Raslan (the editor) but I doubt it'd help. Ditesh From mikem at cyber.com.au Wed Jun 29 05:24:43 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:24:43 +1000 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action In-Reply-To: <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 02:29 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:03 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 11:27 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > > 1a)What is Fedora?1b)Who is it for? (Today). > > > > Yes. > > > > > > Answered partly on the homepage nicely: > > > > > > "The Fedora Project is an open source project > > > > No. That's the Fedora Project. Not Fedora the distro. Which isn't being > > marketed at all. > > !!! Semantic Distinction Alert !!! > > The term "Fedora" is used in both ways, colloquially. Yes. REPEATED GROUND ALERT But: a) very few people give a stuff about the project when compared to the distro b) nobody will give a stuff about the project unless the distro is any good. c) the current web page assumes people can contribute before they can use. This is retarded. I'm not reading the rest of your post, because you didn't read any of mine. Mike From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 05:27:49 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:57:49 +0530 Subject: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action In-Reply-To: <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> Message-ID: <42C23155.9050102@redhat.com> Hi > >a) very few people give a stuff about the project when compared to the >distro > > One of the goals here is to generate more interest on the project itself >b) nobody will give a stuff about the project unless the distro is any >good. > > It goes both ways. If you dont have a good project, people dont contribute which means that you get a less attractive platform at the end >c) the current web page assumes people can contribute before they can >use. This is retarded. > > Help us fix it. design a prototype or write the content. regards Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Jun 29 06:31:36 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:31:36 +0300 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <42C24048.9080101@nicubunu.ro> Jeremy Katz wrote: > > ... and how to get a logo :) > > Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? Indeed, I toyed with the idea of creating some web banners, but without a cool logo is hard to not make them boring: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/banners/ -- nicu From tp at alternativ.net Wed Jun 29 08:46:30 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:46:30 +0200 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews In-Reply-To: <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1120034790.14586.5.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 11:36 +1000 schrieb Colin Charles: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 06:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2005/6/28/prodit/11304408&sec=prodit > > I'm taking care of this one... Going to be able to talk to the editor up > close & personal in a day or so hi, i am new to this list. just a few thoughts: I think this article is not negative: "In a nutshell, FC4 could easily be the new primary operating system to replace the current one residing on your machine." or "Everything worked including integrated soundcards and Windows file sharing. " (citation originally by LOKE KAR SENG) He only has a few misunderstandings like not knowing about fedora-extras containing Inkscape. I think on the other hand it shows how FC4 can be seen if you are not an insider. Thilo -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 08:51:45 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:21:45 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 4 reviews In-Reply-To: <1120034790.14586.5.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <42C1F3C3.8010306@redhat.com> <1120008972.3772.4.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1120034790.14586.5.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <42C26121.9040706@redhat.com> Hi >hi, i am new to this list. > >just a few thoughts: > >I think this article is not negative: >"In a nutshell, FC4 could easily be the new primary operating system to >replace the current one residing on your machine." or "Everything worked >including integrated soundcards and Windows file sharing. " >(citation originally by LOKE KAR SENG) > >He only has a few misunderstandings like not knowing about fedora-extras >containing Inkscape. > >I think on the other hand it shows how FC4 can be seen if you are not an >insider. > >Thilo > > > The article was definitely not a negative one. In fact it was a very glorious picture but responding to reviews isnt necessarily criticism. One could still send in feedback and suggestions on improving it or even a simple thank you note is appropriate at times. In short we are just looking forward to be responding and educating the media and the community on what Fedora is all about. As simple as that regards Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Jun 29 15:35:14 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:35:14 +0300 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C2BFB2.1050207@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > You want a logo? YOU WANT A LOGO!?! > I got your logo right HERE! > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Scapegoat.png Do you mind if I try to join the joke? http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/goat.png or http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/goat_blue.png > -jef"i'm going to remove inkscape from my system now... to avoid > causing any further harm "spaleta -- nicu - another one with too much Inkscape for his own good From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 16:26:38 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Heh. So now I'm catching up on all of the mail from the past week, and it looks like things got a little snippy. Let me add my $0.02, for what they're worth: 1. Numbers don't impress me, except in a very general way. Debian and Ubuntu and Fedora are all doing very well. I'd like to get *some* accurate numbers -- but only to tell us how well *we* are doing. What do I want to see? More users, more packagers, more awareness, more innovation. But I'm *not* interested in "how we're doing versus Ubuntu today". Having seen and talked with a lot of folks in Debian/Ubuntuland at LinuxTag, I've come to the conclusion that everyone has their own problems to solve. I'm interested in solving ours. 2. "Marketing" is perhaps a misnomer here. People think of "marketing" as this aggressive, sell-the-sizzle, hit-the-number sort of idea. That's not what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of itself. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 16:39:00 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My take on the "rapid rise of Ubuntu" In-Reply-To: <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1119558812.17179.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a05062317095de29cdb@mail.gmail.com> <1119576654.5747.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: ...which will probably end up blogged at some point soon. At LinuxTag, I watched Benjamin "Mako" Hill defend Ubuntu against a room full (and I mean full by the dozens) of angry Debian developers who believe that a billionaire has hijacked years of their hard work and taken the credit for it. Frankly, he didn't do a very good job of this defense. Kind of a tough defense to mount, actually, since the Ubuntu folks put together a tool that pulled in Debian patches and inadvertently (one hopes) stripped the names of the original contributors out of the change logs. Oops. "We need the Debian community," he said. "There's ten of us, and thousands of you. But hey, is a fork really such a bad thing?" Good luck, Mako. After the talk, I spoke briefly with Martin Michlmayer, former head of the Debian project. He was soliciting Fedora folks for our knowledge on "how to get a release out the door every six months." Not that we're brilliant at it ourselves or anything, but we manage to get the job done, and get new stuff in release after release. There are, without doubt, things that we can learn from Debian/Ubuntu, and I fully intend for us to do precisely that. But bear in mind, gentlemen, that there's a great deal that Debian/Ubuntu -- and everyone else -- can learn from us. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 16:46:54 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:46:54 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:26 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Heh. > > So now I'm catching up on all of the mail from the past week, and it looks > like things got a little snippy. Let me add my $0.02, for what they're > worth: > > 1. Numbers don't impress me, except in a very general way. Debian and > Ubuntu and Fedora are all doing very well. I'd like to get *some* > accurate numbers -- but only to tell us how well *we* are doing. What do > I want to see? More users, more packagers, more awareness, more > innovation. But I'm *not* interested in "how we're doing versus Ubuntu > today". Having seen and talked with a lot of folks in Debian/Ubuntuland > at LinuxTag, I've come to the conclusion that everyone has their own > problems to solve. I'm interested in solving ours. this is good It's useful to keep in mind the strength that comes from this diversity having to do with the approaches Fedora and Ubuntu, for example, take to defining their audiences. The free organic building block goes much further when we focus on doing our chosen vertical(s) exceptionally well. And we need to focus our energies on the Goliath, non-open standards, rather than withIN the sandbox. Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > 2. "Marketing" is perhaps a misnomer here. People think of "marketing" as > this aggressive, sell-the-sizzle, hit-the-number sort of idea. That's not > what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much > more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they > should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm > not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a > few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of > itself. This is good, too. It's the quality of the network... -Sam > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- http://www.hiser-adelstein.com From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 16:59:54 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:59:54 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. rpm vs apt? You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a while ago. okay: rpm == dpkg apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. just so we're clear. -sv From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 17:00:48 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:00:48 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > rpm vs apt? > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > while ago. > > okay: rpm == dpkg > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > just so we're clear. Of course, so careless of me, Seth. -Sam > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 17:09:51 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:51 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:00 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > > > rpm vs apt? > > > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > > while ago. > > > > okay: rpm == dpkg > > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > > > just so we're clear. > > Of course, so careless of me, Seth. But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. So what's the big point of differentiation? -sv From ad+lists at uni-x.org Wed Jun 29 17:17:17 2005 From: ad+lists at uni-x.org (Alexander Dalloz) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:17:17 +0200 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59: > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > rpm vs apt? > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > while ago. > > okay: rpm == dpkg > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > just so we're clear. > > -sv I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus when promoting Fedora. Alexander -- Alexander Dalloz | Enger, Germany | GPG http://pgp.mit.edu 0xB366A773 legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html Fedora Core 2 GNU/Linux on Athlon with kernel 2.6.11-1.35_FC2smp Serendipity 19:05:51 up 4 days, 1:58, load average: 0.25, 0.26, 0.23 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 17:21:35 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:21:35 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> Message-ID: <1120065695.10448.53.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59: > > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > > > rpm vs apt? > > > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > > while ago. > > > > okay: rpm == dpkg > > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > > > just so we're clear. > > > > -sv > > I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. > On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with > when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and > Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in > the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use > to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. > So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus > when promoting Fedora. I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and friends good enough that no one needs ever think about the name of the commands. :) -sv From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 17:27:11 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <604aa7910506280831724f6db9@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506280831724f6db9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > As long as each pin or merit badge comes with defense and attacks > statistics... so you can use them to battle against other fedora > contributors at conferences or bars. If I say that this is a brilliant idea, does that make me a sad, sad human being? Hey, let's all play a big game of Fedora: The Gathering! --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 17:31:02 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:31:02 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506280831724f6db9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120066263.10448.55.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:27 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > As long as each pin or merit badge comes with defense and attacks > > statistics... so you can use them to battle against other fedora > > contributors at conferences or bars. > > If I say that this is a brilliant idea, does that make me a sad, sad human > being? > No, that's not what makes you a sad, sad human being.. :-D -sv From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 17:39:12 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Sam Hiser wrote: > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's no reason to have two packaging standards. So best of luck to me. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 17:41:06 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. > > So what's the big point of differentiation? 1. An ocean of perception. 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't be devised -- if anyone cared. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 17:46:10 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:46:10 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum > > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. > > > > So what's the big point of differentiation? > > 1. An ocean of perception. > > 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two > camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly > different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't > be devised -- if anyone cared. :) > oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come up with 'standards' for gnome and kde. when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time talking about goofball standards for menu files. -sv From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 17:42:02 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:42:02 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:09 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:00 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > > > > > rpm vs apt? > > > > > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > > > while ago. > > > > > > okay: rpm == dpkg > > > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > > > > > just so we're clear. > > > > Of course, so careless of me, Seth. > > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. > > So what's the big point of differentiation? The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I. There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is vapor yet, but...) It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and planning and money are naturally involved. Additionally, adoption into either framework is a kind of lock-in, so the decision is thoroughly considered. Do I go with Ford or Alfa? Well the answer depends upon where I get the oil filters and how much they cost, and can I get them at all -- for my fleet of 500 vans ;-) -Sam > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 17:47:17 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:47:17 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120067237.4865.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Sam Hiser wrote: > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's > no reason to have two packaging standards. It's already disappearing underneath the GUI tools. > > So best of luck to me. :) > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 17:53:45 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum > > > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. > > > > > > So what's the big point of differentiation? > > > > 1. An ocean of perception. > > > > 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two > > camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly > > different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't > > be devised -- if anyone cared. :) > > > > oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come > up with 'standards' for gnome and kde. See my disclaimer: "if anyone cared". Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction becomes moot as well. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 17:48:42 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:48:42 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120067322.4865.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:46 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum > > > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. > > > > > > So what's the big point of differentiation? > > > > 1. An ocean of perception. > > > > 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two > > camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly > > different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't > > be devised -- if anyone cared. :) > > > > oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come > up with 'standards' for gnome and kde. > > when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time > talking about goofball standards for menu files. Hey, that's someone's ego you got over there in Germany ;-) > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 17:57:27 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:57:27 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I. There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have ever heard of. > There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are > supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of > configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the > distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is > vapor yet, but...) What difference? Red Hat-based distributions use kickstart for mass deployment and can use yum or up2date for updates. > It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be > necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the > conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and > making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt > matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a > difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and > planning and money are naturally involved. What difference? The only thing I can think of is that ubuntu is the only deb-based distro with an automated installer. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 17:58:32 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:58:32 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120067322.4865.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> <1120067322.4865.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120067912.10448.67.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:48 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:46 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > > > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum > > > > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality. > > > > > > > > So what's the big point of differentiation? > > > > > > 1. An ocean of perception. > > > > > > 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two > > > camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly > > > different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't > > > be devised -- if anyone cared. :) > > > > > > > oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come > > up with 'standards' for gnome and kde. > > > > when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time > > talking about goofball standards for menu files. > > Hey, that's someone's ego you got over there in Germany ;-) in germany? The same is true if we were only doing kde. what're you talking about? -sv From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 17:56:36 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:56:36 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120067796.4865.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more > > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I. > > There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have > ever heard of. > > > > > There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are > > supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of > > configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the > > distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is > > vapor yet, but...) > > What difference? Red Hat-based distributions use kickstart for mass > deployment and can use yum or up2date for updates. > > > > > It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be > > necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the > > conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and > > making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt > > matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a > > difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and > > planning and money are naturally involved. > > What difference? The only thing I can think of is that ubuntu is the > only deb-based distro with an automated installer. > Seth- Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone yet. -Sam > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 18:08:30 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:08:30 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120067796.4865.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> <1120067796.4865.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120068511.10448.71.camel@cutter> > > > Seth- > Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then > that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't > know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a > different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost > enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone > yet. What? 1. I have sat and had that discussion about enterprise-wide support for linux. At Duke, with the CIO and Associate Deans of Computing for almost all the major schools. 2. Who is 'we' in the above sentence: "We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost enterprise-class." -sv From tp at alternativ.net Wed Jun 29 18:15:32 2005 From: tp at alternativ.net (Thilo Pfennig) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:15:32 +0200 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120068932.3216.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 13:53 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction > becomes moot as well. I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody need, I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, but that are not so many. Thilo -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Jun 29 18:19:22 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:19:22 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120068932.3216.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120067170.10448.59.camel@cutter> <1120068932.3216.1.camel@stevie.marzipan.invalid> Message-ID: <1120069162.10448.75.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 20:15 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: > Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 13:53 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > > > Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction > > becomes moot as well. > > I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody need, > I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, but > that are not so many. this is another reason why we need to get moving on the grouping and classification of packages in extras. getting started on this early will help as the number of packages grow. -sv From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 18:38:24 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:38:24 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120068511.10448.71.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120064448.4568.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064991.10448.49.camel@cutter> <1120066922.4865.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120067847.10448.65.camel@cutter> <1120067796.4865.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120068511.10448.71.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120070304.5006.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:08 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > Seth- > > Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then > > that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't > > know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a > > different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost > > enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone > > yet. > > > What? > 1. I have sat and had that discussion about enterprise-wide support for > linux. At Duke, with the CIO and Associate Deans of Computing for almost > all the major schools. > > 2. Who is 'we' in the above sentence: "We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) > almost enterprise-class." Hiser + Adelstein > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- http://www.hiser-adelstein.com From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 22:30:11 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:30:11 -0700 Subject: Fedora v. Fedora (was Re: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action) In-Reply-To: <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> Message-ID: <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 15:24 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > a) very few people give a stuff about the project when compared to the > distro Perhaps we should have a guideline of only using the word "Fedora" to refer to the distro. > I'm not reading the rest of your post, because you didn't read any of > mine. I'm sorry, you must have me confused with someone else. I was merely pointing out that we are using the same word to mean different things, and this creates confusion. This confusion is happening in this thread, not made any easier because everyone keeps asking what "Fedora" means. It doesn't mean anything, it means several things, and what can we do about that? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 22:44:28 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora v. Fedora (was Re: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action) In-Reply-To: <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > This confusion is happening in this thread, not made any easier because > everyone keeps asking what "Fedora" means. It doesn't mean anything, it > means several things, and what can we do about that? Fortunately, we're not alone in this quandary. We need only look as far as the Apache Software Foundation and ask, "what did they do about this?" Well, for starters, they came up with identifiable names for all of their projects. HTTP Server. Ant. Tomcat. Cocoon. Maven. NOT: "The Apache Web Server Project" and "The Apache Java Build Tool Project" and "The Apache Java Servlet Engine Project" and so forth. And when you talk about the Apache Software Foundation, you talk about "the ASF", not "Apache". I wonder if we could take a lesson from that. It's a bit more complicated than that, of course, but the further we go down this path, the more it becomes clear to me. I will make the following statement, and I will make it in an absolutist way, and ask people to agree, or not: The goal of the Fedora Marketing Project is NOT to "market Fedora" as an entity. The goal, rather, IS to explain, promote and recruit for individual Fedora projects. Do these conversations make more sense if we cast them in this light? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 29 23:01:15 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:01:15 -0700 Subject: Fedora v. Fedora (was Re: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120086075.7188.23.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 18:44 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > This confusion is happening in this thread, not made any easier because > > everyone keeps asking what "Fedora" means. It doesn't mean anything, it > > means several things, and what can we do about that? > > Fortunately, we're not alone in this quandary. We need only look as far > as the Apache Software Foundation and ask, "what did they do about this?" > > Well, for starters, they came up with identifiable names for all of their > projects. HTTP Server. Ant. Tomcat. Cocoon. Maven. NOT: "The Apache > Web Server Project" and "The Apache Java Build Tool Project" and "The > Apache Java Servlet Engine Project" and so forth. And when you talk about > the Apache Software Foundation, you talk about "the ASF", not "Apache". > I wonder if we could take a lesson from that. Certainly could. /me ponders what to call the documentation project We get our current practices somewhat from Red Hat branding habits. It's the branding debate of "Porsche 911" v. "Ford family of automobiles." Red Hat is firmly in the Porsche camp. Still, projects gain some visibility and credentials by having the Fedora word as part of the name. There are many Apache projects I wouldn't know are Apache related until I see the project URL. I don't know if this is good or not. One good thing would be the dropping of all these extra TLAs. > It's a bit more complicated than that, of course, but the further we go > down this path, the more it becomes clear to me. I will make the > following statement, and I will make it in an absolutist way, and ask > people to agree, or not: > > The goal of the Fedora Marketing Project is NOT to "market Fedora" as > an entity. The goal, rather, IS to explain, promote and recruit for > individual Fedora projects. +1 for the IS part The first part leans on an unexplained definition of "marketing". AIUI, the point is, stop thinking of Fedora as a singularity and start thinking of it as a multilarity. Or just plain hilarity. - Karsten (yes, I know it is "multiplicity", but then the joke doesn't work) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From shiser at cloud9.net Wed Jun 29 23:15:47 2005 From: shiser at cloud9.net (Sam Hiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:15:47 -0400 Subject: Fedora v. Fedora (was Re: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action) In-Reply-To: <1120086075.7188.23.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120086075.7188.23.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120086947.5993.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm kinda new here, and this is an interesting conversation about fundamentals...which is important to agree on. What does 'Fedora' mean? All the up-stream Red Hat-related development activities based in "the community," maybe? -Sam On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 16:01 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 18:44 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > > This confusion is happening in this thread, not made any easier because > > > everyone keeps asking what "Fedora" means. It doesn't mean anything, it > > > means several things, and what can we do about that? > > > > Fortunately, we're not alone in this quandary. We need only look as far > > as the Apache Software Foundation and ask, "what did they do about this?" > > > > Well, for starters, they came up with identifiable names for all of their > > projects. HTTP Server. Ant. Tomcat. Cocoon. Maven. NOT: "The Apache > > Web Server Project" and "The Apache Java Build Tool Project" and "The > > Apache Java Servlet Engine Project" and so forth. And when you talk about > > the Apache Software Foundation, you talk about "the ASF", not "Apache". > > I wonder if we could take a lesson from that. > > Certainly could. /me ponders what to call the documentation project > > We get our current practices somewhat from Red Hat branding habits. > It's the branding debate of "Porsche 911" v. "Ford family of > automobiles." Red Hat is firmly in the Porsche camp. > > Still, projects gain some visibility and credentials by having the > Fedora word as part of the name. There are many Apache projects I > wouldn't know are Apache related until I see the project URL. I don't > know if this is good or not. > > One good thing would be the dropping of all these extra TLAs. > > > It's a bit more complicated than that, of course, but the further we go > > down this path, the more it becomes clear to me. I will make the > > following statement, and I will make it in an absolutist way, and ask > > people to agree, or not: > > > > The goal of the Fedora Marketing Project is NOT to "market Fedora" as > > an entity. The goal, rather, IS to explain, promote and recruit for > > individual Fedora projects. > > +1 for the IS part > > The first part leans on an unexplained definition of "marketing". > > AIUI, the point is, stop thinking of Fedora as a singularity and start > thinking of it as a multilarity. Or just plain hilarity. > > - Karsten > (yes, I know it is "multiplicity", but then the joke doesn't work) > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 00:10:15 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:10:15 -0400 Subject: Cool Fedora schwag idea In-Reply-To: <42C2BFB2.1050207@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105062814052c92c485@mail.gmail.com> <42C2BFB2.1050207@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa791050629171065cb2284@mail.gmail.com> On 6/29/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Do you mind if I try to join the joke? I've added crucially important details to the orignal scapegoat image. Not all the way where I want it to be.. but close. I'd like to replace the yellow,orange,red scheme with a blue scheme before anyone who has been begging me for t-shirts gets to re-produce this... but I can't seem to find a set of blues that really looks as good as the orange-ish colors. -jef"new scapegoat! Now with anus!"spaleta From mikem at cyber.com.au Thu Jun 30 01:54:42 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:54:42 +1000 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1120096482.3069.4.camel@station8.example.com> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:46 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote: > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. You either mean rpm and dpkg, or yum and apt, or rpm/yum and dpkg/apt. Or you're very confused. Mike From mikem at cyber.com.au Thu Jun 30 01:56:47 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:56:47 +1000 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120065695.10448.53.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1120065695.10448.53.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120096608.3069.7.camel@station8.example.com> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > > Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59: > > > > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > > > > > rpm vs apt? > > > > > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > > > while ago. > > > > > > okay: rpm == dpkg > > > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > > > > > just so we're clear. > > > > > > -sv > > > > I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. > > On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with > > when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and > > Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in > > the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use > > to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. > > So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus > > when promoting Fedora. > > I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and > friends Will pup have a command line version? The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, weird. Mike From mikem at cyber.com.au Thu Jun 30 02:07:16 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:07:16 +1000 Subject: Fedora v. Fedora (was Re: Attention, Interest, Decision, Action) In-Reply-To: <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119942233.3384.8.camel@station8.example.com> <1119950965.5401.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1120022686.3306.3.camel@station8.example.com> <1120084211.7188.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120097236.3069.12.camel@station8.example.com> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 15:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 15:24 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > > > a) very few people give a stuff about the project when compared to the > > distro > > Perhaps we should have a guideline of only using the word "Fedora" to > refer to the distro. Yes. Terms are defined how they're used. To most people: The distro is Fedora. Which is made up of Core and Extras. Which is made by the Fedora Project. Unlike Apache, I don't think we're going to try to change how people refer to our main app just to promote other things we do. Mike From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 30 02:07:17 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:07:17 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120096608.3069.7.camel@station8.example.com> References: <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1120065695.10448.53.camel@cutter> <1120096608.3069.7.camel@station8.example.com> Message-ID: <20050630020717.GA4907@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 11:56:47AM +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > Will pup have a command line version? > The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local > and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, > weird. alias pup=yum :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 02:18:10 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:18:10 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120096608.3069.7.camel@station8.example.com> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1120065695.10448.53.camel@cutter> <1120096608.3069.7.camel@station8.example.com> Message-ID: <1120097890.16752.0.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:56 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote: > > > Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59: > > > > > > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation > > > > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a > > > > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on > > > > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good. > > > > > > > > rpm vs apt? > > > > > > > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a > > > > while ago. > > > > > > > > okay: rpm == dpkg > > > > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever. > > > > > > > > just so we're clear. > > > > > > > > -sv > > > > > > I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt. > > > On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with > > > when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and > > > Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in > > > the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use > > > to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad. > > > So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus > > > when promoting Fedora. > > > > I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and > > friends > > Will pup have a command line version? > > The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local > and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, > weird. yum can do local lists and local installs. quite frankly for 80% of the user case - if they're using the command line - they can just use yum. -sv From mikem at cyber.com.au Thu Jun 30 02:57:12 2005 From: mikem at cyber.com.au (Mike MacCana) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:57:12 +1000 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120097890.16752.0.camel@cutter> References: <1119080735.5189.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119271641.3027.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <1120063614.4568.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1120064394.10448.46.camel@cutter> <1120065437.2083.286.camel@serendipity.dogma.lan> <1120065695.10448.53.camel@cutter> <1120096608.3069.7.camel@station8.example.com> <1120097890.16752.0.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120100235.3069.17.camel@station8.example.com> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 22:18 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:56 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote: > > > > The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local > > and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV, > > weird. > > yum can do local lists and local installs. Yes, as I said above, yum can do local installs. And I'm aware of the local listing capability. > quite frankly for 80% of the user case - if they're using the command > line - they can just use yum. True. But for those of us who aren't beginners, but who appreciate simplity and elegance, it's be lovely to ask what package installed a file with yum or pup. Perhaps yum or pup could also have an option to restore that file to it's factory defaults (original contents), or other useful things for us admin folks. Mike From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 30 14:24:57 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:24:57 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:26:38PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much > more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they > should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm > not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a > few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of > itself. I think we need to work on solving this problem: The general case, not necessarily this specific package. I know Warren is working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just ignored without any comment. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 14:35:18 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matthew Miller wrote: > I think we need to work on solving this problem: > > > > The general case, not necessarily this specific package. I know Warren is > working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should > help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just > ignored without any comment. This isn't a marketing issue; it's an execution issue for the Fedora Extras team. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 15:32:25 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:32:25 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> On 6/28/05, Jeremy Katz wrote: > Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? Joke mascots aside..... people like to complain about a lack of a logo.. but nobody is making a serious attempt at either creating a set of design contraints as to what any contributing artist is suppose to be aiming for or contributing potential artwork for feedback. Scapegoat was my small technical nuke attempt at jump starting CONSTRUCTIVE discussion about wtf a logo is actually suppose to look like for this project. At the very least i expected to see discussion about "scapegoat can't work as a logo.. its too busy for a baseball cap or small graphic sizes" A logo would be nice.. but until the people who are complaining about a lack of one actually pony up some reasonable discussion as to the design to guide any artists.. its absolutely POINTLESS to talk about it like its something important to get done. So from now on. I expect anyone who wants to bring up the subject to aim their comments at either specific design points to shoot for... or offering up drafts of a logo for review. If i see another "a logo would be good post" without constructive comment to move the discussion forward.. I will be doing the mailinglist equivalent of ripping out your spleen. So on that note... here is my somewhat less humorous attempt at a draft for a reusable logo. http://jef.is-a-geek.com/path3079.png http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Fedora-Logos.png the idea being a re-usable style motif, the path3079.png is more stylized example of where i think this can go. Its rough, but the sytle i'm going for here is meant to feel like a blowing flag effect. The bottom of the letters are pretty close to the effect I'm going for but I need to continue that upward into the top of the letters. The idea is you can interchange the C for Core the E for extras the L for legacy the F for foundation. While keeping the first F nearly the same. Should work well on paper materials or even a letterman jacket. I'm not sure if this design has space for cross-branding. Scapegoat on the other hand... has lots of room for crossbranding via another earring. Clearly people already have "blue" associated with fedora. The C is red because well... Core is Red hat controlled. Legacy has a green thing going on already. And Extras.. i have no idea wtf to do about extras coloring scheming so its a place holder for now. -jef"desperately hoping a serious artist makes an attempt at appeasing the people who wont shutup about needing a logo"spaleta From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 16:28:20 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:28:20 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1119411871.23117.20.camel@arena.soho.bytebot.net> <42BA65FC.6070606@glossolalie.org> <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1120148900.22134.3.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 10:24 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:26:38PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much > > more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they > > should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm > > not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a > > few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of > > itself. > > I think we need to work on solving this problem: > > Matt, This is coming up in the Fedora Extras Steering Committee and when we have some more progress on it - be assured it'll be in the minutes that are posted. cool? -sv From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 30 17:19:36 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:19:36 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: References: <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20050630171936.GA31171@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 10:35:18AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should > > help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't > > just ignored without any comment. > This isn't a marketing issue; it's an execution issue for the Fedora > Extras team. It may not be a *promotional* issue, like the letter jackets and the pins and the hats and the balloons, but it *is* a marketing issue. As someone said earlier, Fedora marketing should be based in honesty. If we want to market the Fedora project to potential contributors, we *can't* just be ignoring people after they jump through all sorts of hoops to actually try to help. Working to make the project match what the intended audience really needs is essential. If you're trying to market to "a few thousand knowledgeable advocates", the *best* thing do to is make their contributions feel valuable and wanted. This is *far* more powerful than "swag" and other gimmicks. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 17:23:29 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:23:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <20050630171936.GA31171@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> <20050630171936.GA31171@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matthew Miller wrote: > It may not be a *promotional* issue, like the letter jackets and the pins > and the hats and the balloons, but it *is* a marketing issue. As someone > said earlier, Fedora marketing should be based in honesty. If we want to > market the Fedora project to potential contributors, we *can't* just be > ignoring people after they jump through all sorts of hoops to actually try > to help. > > Working to make the project match what the intended audience really needs is > essential. If you're trying to market to "a few thousand knowledgeable > advocates", the *best* thing do to is make their contributions feel valuable > and wanted. This is *far* more powerful than "swag" and other gimmicks. Point well taken. My point, though, is that we *know* it's a problem -- a major problem -- and it's already on the plate of the Extras committee to solve that problem. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jun 30 17:28:00 2005 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:28:00 -0400 Subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :) In-Reply-To: <1120148900.22134.3.camel@cutter> References: <1119540040.22136.172.camel@erato.phig.org> <1119543027.9972.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623091234680a7b@mail.gmail.com> <1119546971.12544.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910506231047761ee63e@mail.gmail.com> <1119549042.12544.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791050623105919f145f0@mail.gmail.com> <20050630142457.GA25166@jadzia.bu.edu> <1120148900.22134.3.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20050630172800.GB31171@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 12:28:20PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > I think we need to work on solving this problem: > > > This is coming up in the Fedora Extras Steering Committee and when we > have some more progress on it - be assured it'll be in the minutes that > are posted. > cool? Yes, very. Thanks. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit. From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 18:26:05 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:26:05 -0700 Subject: Fedora Boot for LWCE:SF Message-ID: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Now that FUDCon2 is over, and we've pretty much decided to not have a FUDCon3 in SF can we put some serious resources into planning the Fedora Booth for LWCE:SF? We've had a couple booths under our belts now, and I think it's time for us to progress beyond the 'tossed together last minute' feel of the booths that I've seen. Not to take away from any great effort that booth people have put in in the past, just having a booth is an amazing amount of work. But with more and more people willing to help out I think we have the opportunity to do a bit more. Having some systems in the booth is good, having them DO SOMETHING is even better. Since we're not going to have any FUDCon talks, I thought doing some mini presentations in the booth using the systems might be a good way to draw some people over and show them what it really is. Personally, I'd love to do a mini talk on kickstart complete with a system being kickstarted. By the same token somebody (or myself) can do a talk in just regular installs because I feel that the installer is one of the best parts of the distribution, and it is unique. Rather than talking about 'and this is how the new openoffice.org looks on OUR distro! See the widgets!?' we can talk about what really sets the distribution aside. In past LWCEs I've been to, the majority of the crowd are 'why would we use your distro' and not 'how can we contribute to your distro', so I think pitching our mini-presentations toward _users_ and if they proceed to ask about contribution, then we can have side discussions about contribution. Maybe we could score a little round table or something so that people that want to talk contribution and project stuff can sit down and take a load off instead of stacking up in front of the booth and blocking the way for people that want to take a look at the shinys. I also think we should have a good diversity of arches represented, an Intel box, an AMD box (dual cores anybody?), I'll have my Apple laptop but maybe a mac mini would be cool for the table. I'd like to do what some other booths have done, have one system (or maybe all systems w/ a switcher) plugged into a projector and the projector projecting on the back wall of the booth or the corner of the booth or something like that so that people bring their eyes up and look ahead instead of stooping to look at table level monitors or whatnot. It could also free table space for systems instead of having a bunch of (heavy) monitors stacked up. Of course, there is the swag aspect too. I assume we'll have t-shirts galore again (do they HAVE to be white?), CDs or DVDs of the distro (maybe we can ping vendors again for vendor branded ones rather than paying to master them ourselves), but what about some higher class items for the people that have a sit down talk about contributing (maybe even an extras contributor account sign up kiosk)? We won't advertise the items so that we don't get freeloaders just faking a talk to get swag, but for those that have a genuine interest we can give them something to thank them for their time? Anywho, these are my thoughts for now, I'm sure I'll have more soon. I'd like to start a wiki page for the booth planning, anybody have a preference where this page goes? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 18:31:16 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:31:16 -0700 Subject: Fedora Boot for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120156276.1433.36.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Personally, I'd love to do a mini talk on kickstart complete with a > system being kickstarted. By the same token somebody (or myself) can > do > a talk in just regular installs because I feel that the installer is > one > of the best parts of the distribution, and it is unique. Rather than > talking about 'and this is how the new openoffice.org looks on OUR > distro! See the widgets!?' we can talk about what really sets the > distribution aside. Another thought for a mini-talk: Working demo of the Fedora Extras Build System. Something where we can show using the build system locally to build your packages, and then showing how to cvs check them into Fedora Extras and trigger a build (forgive me if I am not clear on this process right now). This might intrigue people who are on the cusp of contributing, as well as end users that are using Fedora for a build host for internal applications. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 18:35:16 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:05:16 +0530 Subject: FUDcon2 presentations? Message-ID: <42C43B64.6060607@redhat.com> Hi Would FUDcon2 participants kindly make the presentations available here: http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/. More information of any form such as meeting minutes, notes etc would be useful. I have already read the blogs about in Fedora people (http://fedoraproject.org/people) regards Rahul From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 18:52:56 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:52:56 -0700 Subject: Fedora Booth for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120157577.1433.38.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Anywho, these are my thoughts for now, I'm sure I'll have more soon. > I'd like to start a wiki page for the booth planning, anybody have a > preference where this page goes? > Well, I started one anyway, we can always move it. http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/LinuxWorldSF2005Planning Also, when replying to this thread, please change the subject to 'Booth' rather than 'Boot'. Nothing like having my typo in the archives forever... (: -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 18:48:31 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:48:31 -0400 Subject: FUDcon2 presentations? In-Reply-To: <42C43B64.6060607@redhat.com> References: <42C43B64.6060607@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1120157311.25150.7.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 00:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Would FUDcon2 participants kindly make the presentations available here: > http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/. More information of any form such as > meeting minutes, notes etc would be useful. I have already read the > blogs about in Fedora people (http://fedoraproject.org/people) > if people wanna email links/etc to this list I'll be glad to put them up. there are a bunch of us with access to that page. me, colin, gregdek, etc. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 18:53:50 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FUDcon2 presentations? In-Reply-To: <1120157311.25150.7.camel@cutter> References: <42C43B64.6060607@redhat.com> <1120157311.25150.7.camel@cutter> Message-ID: It's on my plate. I've got a bunch of this info. I'll get to it today. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 00:05 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > Would FUDcon2 participants kindly make the presentations available here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon/. More information of any form such as > > meeting minutes, notes etc would be useful. I have already read the > > blogs about in Fedora people (http://fedoraproject.org/people) > > > > if people wanna email links/etc to this list I'll be glad to put them > up. > > there are a bunch of us with access to that page. > > me, colin, gregdek, etc. > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 18:57:35 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:57:35 -0400 Subject: FUDcon2 presentations? In-Reply-To: References: <42C43B64.6060607@redhat.com> <1120157311.25150.7.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1120157855.25150.17.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 14:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > It's on my plate. I've got a bunch of this info. > > I'll get to it today. you've got a full plate, as do a lot of us - hence why I figured others bouncing it to this list would let us get it edited. more importantly if there are people who would like to undertake editing duties and are willing to be dedicated to it and appropriate should talk to me, or gregdek or colin or all sorts of people. -sv From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 18:58:17 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:58:17 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> We should outline the rules as you say, and then have an open contest. Maybe even a $$ prize. Conversely, Greg could work with RH's stellar design team to deliver something within whatever guidelines we agree on. The Shadowman cost what, $500? In any case, as a stab at some rules/guidelines: -no Red Hat derivatives (hard to get blessed, harder to differentiate for users) -Fedora blue (needs a published Pantone, RGB and Hex) -I like the goat, but I'm twisted, I'd vote against avatars/mascots in general -very close to being a non-brand (e.g. the less elements there are in it, the less usage guidelines we need) -keep the name[tm] and logo[tm] seperate from the lookfeel[tm] (e.g. don't make people have to hire a lawyer and designer just to legally debrand or rebrand it for spin offs) -should evoke the spirit of the product/project somehow (fast moving, free, maverick, etc) And/or whatever RH marketing and legal have to say on the matter. All that said, I like where your FC, FL text based logos are heading. Simple. Or if we like the goat, a more stylized goat. Or a stylized Kudzu leaf, or a photo of Seth's birthmark which is shaped like Greenland. Or whatever, it's better in the abstract since it will have whatever meaning we infuse it with, so it doesn't matter if it's as perfect as the Nike swoop, b/c that *became* the perfect logo for them. --jeremy On 6/30/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/28/05, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? > > > Joke mascots aside..... people like to complain about a lack of a > logo.. but nobody is making a serious attempt at either creating a set > of design contraints as to what any contributing artist is suppose to > be aiming for or contributing potential artwork for feedback. > > Scapegoat was my small technical nuke attempt at jump starting > CONSTRUCTIVE discussion about wtf a logo is actually suppose to look > like for this project. At the very least i expected to see discussion > about "scapegoat can't work as a logo.. its too busy for a baseball > cap or small graphic sizes" > > A logo would be nice.. but until the people who are complaining about > a lack of one actually pony up some reasonable discussion as to the > design to guide any artists.. its absolutely POINTLESS to talk about > it like its something important to get done. So from now on. I expect > anyone who wants to bring up the subject to aim their comments at > either specific design points to shoot for... or offering up drafts of > a logo for review. If i see another "a logo would be good post" > without constructive comment to move the discussion forward.. I will > be doing the mailinglist equivalent of ripping out your spleen. > > So on that note... here is my somewhat less humorous attempt at a > draft for a reusable logo. > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/path3079.png > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Fedora-Logos.png > the idea being a re-usable style motif, the path3079.png is more > stylized example of where i think this can go. Its rough, but the > sytle i'm going for here is meant to feel like a blowing flag effect. > The bottom of the letters are pretty close to the effect I'm going for > but I need to continue that upward into the top of the letters. > > The idea is you can interchange the C for Core the E for extras the L > for legacy the F for foundation. While keeping the first F nearly the > same. Should work well on paper materials or even a letterman jacket. > I'm not sure if this design has space for cross-branding. > Scapegoat on the other hand... has lots of room for crossbranding via > another earring. > > Clearly people already have "blue" associated with fedora. The C is > red because well... Core is Red hat controlled. Legacy has a green > thing going on already. And Extras.. i have no idea wtf to do about > extras coloring scheming so its a place holder for now. > > -jef"desperately hoping a serious artist makes an attempt at appeasing > the people who wont shutup about needing a logo"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 19:04:00 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My take: The project is called fedora. The project needs a fedora. I'm fighting for a fedora. I'll get back to you. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > We should outline the rules as you say, and then have an open contest. > Maybe even a $$ prize. Conversely, Greg could work with RH's stellar > design team to deliver something within whatever guidelines we agree > on. The Shadowman cost what, $500? > > In any case, as a stab at some rules/guidelines: > > -no Red Hat derivatives (hard to get blessed, harder to differentiate for users) > -Fedora blue (needs a published Pantone, RGB and Hex) > -I like the goat, but I'm twisted, I'd vote against avatars/mascots in general > -very close to being a non-brand (e.g. the less elements there are in > it, the less usage guidelines we need) > -keep the name[tm] and logo[tm] seperate from the lookfeel[tm] (e.g. > don't make people have to hire a lawyer and designer just to legally > debrand or rebrand it for spin offs) > -should evoke the spirit of the product/project somehow (fast moving, > free, maverick, etc) > > And/or whatever RH marketing and legal have to say on the matter. > > All that said, I like where your FC, FL text based logos are heading. > Simple. Or if we like the goat, a more stylized goat. Or a stylized > Kudzu leaf, or a photo of Seth's birthmark which is shaped like > Greenland. > > Or whatever, it's better in the abstract since it will have whatever > meaning we infuse it with, so it doesn't matter if it's as perfect as > the Nike swoop, b/c that *became* the perfect logo for them. > > --jeremy > > On 6/30/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 6/28/05, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > Come on, how can we do cool pins without a logo? > > > > > > Joke mascots aside..... people like to complain about a lack of a > > logo.. but nobody is making a serious attempt at either creating a set > > of design contraints as to what any contributing artist is suppose to > > be aiming for or contributing potential artwork for feedback. > > > > Scapegoat was my small technical nuke attempt at jump starting > > CONSTRUCTIVE discussion about wtf a logo is actually suppose to look > > like for this project. At the very least i expected to see discussion > > about "scapegoat can't work as a logo.. its too busy for a baseball > > cap or small graphic sizes" > > > > A logo would be nice.. but until the people who are complaining about > > a lack of one actually pony up some reasonable discussion as to the > > design to guide any artists.. its absolutely POINTLESS to talk about > > it like its something important to get done. So from now on. I expect > > anyone who wants to bring up the subject to aim their comments at > > either specific design points to shoot for... or offering up drafts of > > a logo for review. If i see another "a logo would be good post" > > without constructive comment to move the discussion forward.. I will > > be doing the mailinglist equivalent of ripping out your spleen. > > > > So on that note... here is my somewhat less humorous attempt at a > > draft for a reusable logo. > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/path3079.png > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/Fedora-Logos.png > > the idea being a re-usable style motif, the path3079.png is more > > stylized example of where i think this can go. Its rough, but the > > sytle i'm going for here is meant to feel like a blowing flag effect. > > The bottom of the letters are pretty close to the effect I'm going for > > but I need to continue that upward into the top of the letters. > > > > The idea is you can interchange the C for Core the E for extras the L > > for legacy the F for foundation. While keeping the first F nearly the > > same. Should work well on paper materials or even a letterman jacket. > > I'm not sure if this design has space for cross-branding. > > Scapegoat on the other hand... has lots of room for crossbranding via > > another earring. > > > > Clearly people already have "blue" associated with fedora. The C is > > red because well... Core is Red hat controlled. Legacy has a green > > thing going on already. And Extras.. i have no idea wtf to do about > > extras coloring scheming so its a place holder for now. > > > > -jef"desperately hoping a serious artist makes an attempt at appeasing > > the people who wont shutup about needing a logo"spaleta > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:15:43 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:15:43 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119900238.29523.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506301215f2e12ab@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > We should outline the rules as you say, and then have an open contest. > Maybe even a $$ prize. Conversely, Greg could work with RH's stellar > design team to deliver something within whatever guidelines we agree > on. The Shadowman cost what, $500? Personally... i'd rather see.. "community".. make a stab at roughing out a design concept before handing it off to paid professionals to polish up. I definitely don't want to see something magically appear completely formed as a paid work. I'd much rather see this "community" come to an agreement first on a crappy unprofessional draft of a concept and then let the professionals clean it up with artistic skill. So everyone break out the napkins and the crayons. Draw some crap, scan it into a scanner and post the results with an explanation as to what themes you are trying to touch on with the design. -jef From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:15:58 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:15:58 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > My take...fedora...fedora...fedora. I agree. While Jeremy's comments make *a lot* of sense, when I picture the Fedora fedora, I think about it's connection to Red Hat, but also it's distinct difference. It's akin to auto designers' notion of "DNA." Here's my mental picture made png: http://mattfrye.net/fedora_mpf.png MPF From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 19:22:34 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:22:34 -0700 Subject: Fedora Booth for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120159354.7188.97.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:26 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > Now that FUDCon2 is over, and we've pretty much decided to not have a > FUDCon3 in SF can we put some serious resources into planning the Fedora > Booth for LWCE:SF? Oh, yeah, hey! That's where I started on this whole thing, volunteering to do booth duty. I like your mettle, let's do it. > We've had a couple booths under our belts now, and I think it's time for > us to progress beyond the 'tossed together last minute' feel of the > booths that I've seen. Not to take away from any great effort that > booth people have put in in the past, just having a booth is an amazing > amount of work. But with more and more people willing to help out I > think we have the opportunity to do a bit more. Do we have a binder or any notes from previous booths? > Having some systems in the booth is good, having them DO SOMETHING is > even better. Since we're not going to have any FUDCon talks, I thought > doing some mini presentations in the booth using the systems might be a > good way to draw some people over and show them what it really is. Yes, yes, definitely. A small series of presentations, one every two hours?, with a posted schedule. > Personally, I'd love to do a mini talk on kickstart complete with a > system being kickstarted. By the same token somebody (or myself) can do > a talk in just regular installs because I feel that the installer is one > of the best parts of the distribution, and it is unique. Rather than > talking about 'and this is how the new openoffice.org looks on OUR > distro! See the widgets!?' we can talk about what really sets the > distribution aside. I'll put some thought into what would make a good SELinux demonstration. We can do some fun stuff locally, then show how well a strict policy works by letting people try stuff as root on Russell Coker's FC play machine. > In past LWCEs I've been to, the majority of the crowd are 'why would we > use your distro' and not 'how can we contribute to your distro', so I > think pitching our mini-presentations toward _users_ and if they proceed > to ask about contribution, then we can have side discussions about > contribution. Maybe we could score a little round table or something so > that people that want to talk contribution and project stuff can sit > down and take a load off instead of stacking up in front of the booth > and blocking the way for people that want to take a look at the shinys. +1 Having a little more elbow room than the typical Free Alley booths I've seen at LWCE would be good. > I also think we should have a good diversity of arches represented, an > Intel box, an AMD box (dual cores anybody?), I'll have my Apple laptop > but maybe a mac mini would be cool for the table. Wonder if there are any IHVs who will contribute some hardware for this. > I'd like to do what > some other booths have done, have one system (or maybe all systems w/ a > switcher) plugged into a projector and the projector projecting on the > back wall of the booth or the corner of the booth or something like that > so that people bring their eyes up and look ahead instead of stooping to > look at table level monitors or whatnot. It could also free table space > for systems instead of having a bunch of (heavy) monitors stacked up. +1 > Of course, there is the swag aspect too. I assume we'll have t-shirts > galore again (do they HAVE to be white?), CDs or DVDs of the distro > (maybe we can ping vendors again for vendor branded ones rather than > paying to master them ourselves), but what about some higher class items > for the people that have a sit down talk about contributing (maybe even > an extras contributor account sign up kiosk)? We won't advertise the > items so that we don't get freeloaders just faking a talk to get swag, > but for those that have a genuine interest we can give them something to > thank them for their time? +1 > Anywho, these are my thoughts for now, I'm sure I'll have more soon. > I'd like to start a wiki page for the booth planning, anybody have a > preference where this page goes? Perhaps Greg can find out who Red Hat is sending that might be able to pull some presentation duty. I'll add my meager few thoughts to that page. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:22:31 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:22:31 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Matt Frye wrote: > I agree. While Jeremy's comments make *a lot* of sense, when I > picture the Fedora fedora, I think about it's connection to Red Hat, > but also it's distinct difference. It's akin to auto designers' > notion of "DNA." Here's my mental picture made png: > http://mattfrye.net/fedora_mpf.png Ah.. but how do you work in the subcomponent differences in the bare "hat"? Certainly Fedora Legacy would like to use the base logo but be able to add something to it to denote "legacy" at a glance. The same with Extras or Core or even differentiating the foundation from the distribution. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:31:09 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:31:09 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506301231578a0c8b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > My take: > The project is called fedora. > The project needs a fedora. > I'm fighting for a fedora. > I'll get back to you. The obvious choice.. is always sooooo boring. -jef"is thankful he doesn't have to attempt to translate the name mandriva into a logo"spaleta From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 19:48:49 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:48:49 -0700 Subject: Fedora Booth for LWCE:SF In-Reply-To: <1120159354.7188.97.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1120155965.1433.33.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120159354.7188.97.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1120160929.1433.43.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 12:22 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > Do we have a binder or any notes from previous booths? Thats a good question for Jack. He's been doing them all so far. > > Having some systems in the booth is good, having them DO SOMETHING > is > > even better. Since we're not going to have any FUDCon talks, I > thought > > doing some mini presentations in the booth using the systems might > be a > > good way to draw some people over and show them what it really is. > > Yes, yes, definitely. A small series of presentations, one every two > hours?, with a posted schedule. We'll have to see how many presentations we have before designing a (rotating?) schedule. System setup time is a factor as well. > I'll put some thought into what would make a good SELinux > demonstration. > We can do some fun stuff locally, then show how well a strict policy > works by letting people try stuff as root on Russell Coker's FC play > machine. Ah, sounds good. I wonder if RH will be doing SELinux presentations in their booth space as well, might not want to compete. > > I also think we should have a good diversity of arches represented, > an > > Intel box, an AMD box (dual cores anybody?), I'll have my Apple > laptop > > but maybe a mac mini would be cool for the table. > > Wonder if there are any IHVs who will contribute some hardware for > this. In the past, Pogo Linux provided system(s) for the booth. They have access to typical Intel/AMD (even dual core) systems, but probably not an apple. I still have a fairly good relationship with them even though I no longer work there and I can act as the liason for getting hardware. We just have to determine what we want to have. > Perhaps Greg can find out who Red Hat is sending that might be able to > pull some presentation duty. > > I'll add my meager few thoughts to that page. Thanks! -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 19:52:47 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:52:47 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 15:22 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Ah.. but how do you work in the subcomponent differences in the bare > "hat"? > Certainly Fedora Legacy would like to use the base logo but be able to > add something to it to denote "legacy" at a glance. The same with > Extras or Core or even differentiating the foundation from the > distribution. > Different "Press" like cards tucked into the band? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:48:23 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:48:23 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050630124835077e3a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > Different "Press" like cards tucked into the band? for large format that could work... but small icons.... if you are relying on more than one letter it gets really busy really fast. Even one letter becomes hard to see and just makes the icon look busy if the letter is relatively small compared to the overall design... at icon sizes. color coded bans on the brin? Always with a majority of the Fedora blue... but with additional color stripes or checks for subcomponents? -jef From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:50:24 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:50:24 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910506301245193f0d4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0506301242683b2536@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506301245193f0d4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0506301250457fa459@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >...Perhaps in the band? There's all kinds of meaning > > in a white hat with different colored bands. > > did you mean to do this offlist? No, I meant to send it to the list. > I think you'd need to keep a central element of blue and add > additional colors somehow. > A striped band? Jesse's suggestion of press passes tucked into the band sounds neat. MPF From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 19:50:59 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: My brief fight for the hat ended abruptly when I ran into Matthew in the hall. And he said "no hat." Therefore, no hat. :) I therefore officially open the floodgates for CRACKPOT IDEAS. No logo idea too insane! As for giving the winner $500, I hardly think it's necessary, given the number of people who give me their crackpot ideas for free. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 15:22 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > Ah.. but how do you work in the subcomponent differences in the bare > > "hat"? > > Certainly Fedora Legacy would like to use the base logo but be able to > > add something to it to denote "legacy" at a glance. The same with > > Extras or Core or even differentiating the foundation from the > > distribution. > > > > Different "Press" like cards tucked into the band? > > -- > Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) > Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) > GPG Public Key > (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) > > Was I helpful? Let others know: > http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 20:04:26 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:04:26 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd0506301250457fa459@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0506301242683b2536@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506301245193f0d4a@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0506301250457fa459@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120161866.1433.46.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 15:50 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > > > I think you'd need to keep a central element of blue and add > > additional colors somehow. > > A striped band? > > Jesse's suggestion of press passes tucked into the band sounds neat. According to Greg, no hat, so this idea is in teh toilet. Too bad, it was a neat idea. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:58:02 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:58:02 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd0506301258d794e77@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > My brief fight for the hat ended abruptly when I ran into Matthew in the > hall. And he said "no hat." Therefore, no hat. :) Does "no hat" mean "no fedora," or "no kind of hat?" That seems a little unreasonable. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 20:05:32 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:05:32 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119945726.3283.29.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <604aa79105062806524c6729dd@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 15:50 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > My brief fight for the hat ended abruptly when I ran into Matthew in the > hall. And he said "no hat." Therefore, no hat. :) > so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. /me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin might be a bit too subtle :) -sv From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:08:14 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:08:14 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> > so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. > > /me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin > might be a bit too subtle :) That's what I am thinking. But what sense does it make to have a project named for a hat, but not be allowed to illustrate said hat. We might as well call it "The Swim Trunks Project." MPF From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 20:12:14 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:12:14 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:08 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > > so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. > > > > /me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin > > might be a bit too subtle :) > > That's what I am thinking. But what sense does it make to have a > project named for a hat, but not be allowed to illustrate said hat. > We might as well call it "The Swim Trunks Project." > I think a logo that has a number of characters and the placement of the characters describe the shape of a hat in their positioning. So the hat exists in the blank space left by the other characters of the logo! or maybe I'm kinda wonko -sv From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 20:13:12 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:43:12 +0530 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42C45258.1090108@redhat.com> Matt Frye wrote: >>so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. >> >>/me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin >>might be a bit too subtle :) >> >> > >That's what I am thinking. But what sense does it make to have a >project named for a hat, but not be allowed to illustrate said hat. >We might as well call it "The Swim Trunks Project." > >MPF > > huh, when did legal stuff ever make sense to J.Random person. why should this one be any different?. let it pass along with the flow regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:16:47 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105063013161bf51741@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, seth vidal wrote: > I think a logo that has a number of characters and the placement of the > characters describe the shape of a hat in their positioning. So the hat > exists in the blank space left by the other characters of the logo! > > or maybe I'm kinda wonko Please don't mix subjects, start a new thread to discussion your wonkiness. I think I could probably come up with an abstract representation of "shapes" that allowed for exactly the blank space effect you describe. -jef"Hi ho Inkscape! Away!"spaleta From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:27:21 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:27:21 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <556f970a050630132755761f@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > As for giving the winner $500, I hardly think it's necessary, given the > number of people who give me their crackpot ideas for free. GET OFF YER WALLET YOU RICH BASTARD! Actually, the money would be for the winning design, not the crackpot idea itself. Unless we know of some decent design folk involved in Fedora already, we may have to bait them into it (maybe with something other than cash.) --jeremy From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:28:38 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:28:38 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05063013281c024986@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Matt Frye wrote: > > so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. > > > > /me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin > > might be a bit too subtle :) > > That's what I am thinking. But what sense does it make to have a > project named for a hat, but not be allowed to illustrate said hat. > We might as well call it "The Swim Trunks Project." Let's change the project name to "comb over". --jeremy From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 20:46:38 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:46:38 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa791050630134647b28b4c@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, seth vidal wrote: > I think a logo that has a number of characters and the placement of the > characters describe the shape of a hat in their positioning. So the hat > exists in the blank space left by the other characters of the logo! http://jef.is-a-geek.com/blank-hat.png can you see the hat in the blank space in there? Very rough. I could probably abstract the bounding shapes a lot better so they are each individually a little more pleasant to look at. It will however be extreme hard to do this sort of thing with detailed "characters" and still have it look reasonable at icon sizes. But the basic question for Greg is... is the hat from blank space acceptable? -jef From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Jun 30 20:50:41 2005 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:50:41 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050630134647b28b4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> <604aa791050630134647b28b4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120164641.25150.34.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:46 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 6/30/05, seth vidal wrote: > > I think a logo that has a number of characters and the placement of the > > characters describe the shape of a hat in their positioning. So the hat > > exists in the blank space left by the other characters of the logo! > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/blank-hat.png > > can you see the hat in the blank space in there? > Very rough. I could probably abstract the bounding shapes a lot > better so they are each individually a little more pleasant to look > at. It will however be extreme hard to do this sort of thing with > detailed "characters" and still have it look reasonable at icon sizes. > > But the basic question for Greg is... is the hat from blank space acceptable? > I'm pretty sure you just drew the gateway computer logo. -sv From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 30 20:59:36 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:59:36 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <604aa791050630134647b28b4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> <604aa791050630134647b28b4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120165176.1433.54.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:46 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > http://jef.is-a-geek.com/blank-hat.png > > can you see the hat in the blank space in there? I would have to drink a lot more in order to see the hat in there. The problem with a angled view of a hat is that there isn't enough negative space to represent the shape in an easy manner. An angled view has too much shading and other distinguishable elements inside the positive space to represent the image. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 21:03:27 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:03:27 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120165176.1433.54.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> <604aa791050630134647b28b4c@mail.gmail.com> <1120165176.1433.54.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910506301403f81fcf9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Jesse Keating wrote: > I would have to drink a lot more in order to see the hat in there. And I think... thats exactly the line that designates a "hat" from the impression of a hat. If its obviously a hat.. I'm pretty sure we can't get away with it. Or to put it another way. I think we need to "fool" whomever Greg has to get internal okay from. Which means at a minimum.. at quick glance..on a white background.. they don't see a hat. Of course, seeing a gateway logo isn't going to cut it for obvious other reasons. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 21:04:18 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: I love the idea of putting a hat in negative space. Like a fedora inside the O of a type treatment. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:08 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > > > so the project is named fedora - but no hats in the logo. > > > > > > /me thinks being suggestive of a hat like a hatbox - or a giant hatpin > > > might be a bit too subtle :) > > > > That's what I am thinking. But what sense does it make to have a > > project named for a hat, but not be allowed to illustrate said hat. > > We might as well call it "The Swim Trunks Project." > > > > I think a logo that has a number of characters and the placement of the > characters describe the shape of a hat in their positioning. So the hat > exists in the blank space left by the other characters of the logo! > > or maybe I'm kinda wonko > > -sv > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 21:06:54 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:06:54 -0400 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <1120161167.1433.44.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <1120161932.25150.25.camel@cutter> <7f1eacdd050630130836aa9a85@mail.gmail.com> <1120162335.25150.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa79105063014064d3c00bd@mail.gmail.com> On 6/30/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > I love the idea of putting a hat in negative space. You also loved the idea of an actual blue fedora....... I just want to know if its worth perusing. Which means you get to ambush someone in the hall again. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Thu Jun 30 21:56:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:56:12 -0700 Subject: Logos: everybody wants one but nobody seems to have any constructive comments. (was Re: Cool Fedora schwag idea) In-Reply-To: <1120161866.1433.46.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <556f970a05062708271d81ac41@mail.gmail.com> <1119978339.2679.28.camel@bree.local.net> <604aa79105063008323b1cd2d5@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0506301158678a9e7e@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd050630121565841e0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105063012223e2ef285@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0506301242683b2536@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910506301245193f0d4a@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd0506301250457fa459@mail.gmail.com> <1120161866.1433.46.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <1120168572.7188.109.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 13:04 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 15:50 -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > > > > > I think you'd need to keep a central element of blue and add > > > additional colors somehow. > > > A striped band? > > > > Jesse's suggestion of press passes tucked into the band sounds neat. > > According to Greg, no hat, so this idea is in teh toilet. Too bad, it > was a neat idea. Yeah, this idea has come up several times on the docs list(s). I wanted to do new admonition icons (Note, Tip, etc.) with different icons stuck in the hatband. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: