From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 1 14:58:29 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 20:28:29 +0530 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Revisi=F3n?= de Fedora Core 5 Message-ID: <1143903509.3802.808.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi A overview with screenshots from the Spanish overlords. http://www.miguialinux.com/content/view/117/58/ Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 1 17:34:41 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:04:41 +0530 Subject: Rethinking the Freemedia problem In-Reply-To: <1143279537.3975.2.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1143279537.3975.2.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <1143912881.3802.828.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-03-25 at 15:08 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 13:15 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Might also be nice to donate such an application to the community at > > large... > > Hmmmm, This app would best be written in python (obviously). > > I'd love to help write it, as I'm sure many of the python enthusiasts of > #fedora-python would. > > I think you should have a CVS server up somewhere so that we could all > work on it. Again I cant see why you can't use sf.net or savannah for CVS space. We need significantly more resources to build our own project management website (not sure what value that would provide over sf.net) and there are better priorities now. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 1 17:38:23 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:08:23 +0530 Subject: Rethinking the Freemedia problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1143913103.3802.830.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-03-24 at 13:15 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Just free thinking here. Stop me if I'm an idiot. :) > > We've clearly got LOTS of demand. What we need is more participants. > BUT... we don't want to burden participants like we've burdened poor > Thomas. :) > > Maybe we need more structure and tools to scale participation -- and a way > to "guarantee" response times. So let me bounce this structure off you: Every real problem can be solved by building a business model around it ;-). While the Freemedia and share media solutions are great to reach the technology enthusiasts which Fedora is pretty suitable for, there is probably better value is letting small scale OEM's do their job too. That would mean identifying their needs better and perhaps modifying the software to support branding effectively as well as trademark guidelines for it and having a single contact point to tackle their problems. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 18:25:21 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 13:25:21 -0500 Subject: Rethinking the Freemedia problem In-Reply-To: <1143913103.3802.830.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1143913103.3802.830.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910604011025q1f463158k4e5c1c7296d31b9e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/1/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > is probably better value is letting small scale OEM's do their job too. > That would mean identifying their needs better and perhaps modifying the > software to support branding effectively as well as trademark guidelines > for it and having a single contact point to tackle their problems. yes there is definitely room for OEM's in lager ecosystem of distribution. Unfortunately I'm not sure that a significant number of small OEM's that offer fedora are plugged in with on-going discussions. Perhaps there is is a mission for fedora's virtual embassy to do an outreach programs to OEMs with some specific goals for identifying potential distribution and related infrastructure and policy enhancements aimed at making life easier for the OEM. -jef"the ambassadors need to develop a windows users refugee relocation program"spaleta From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sat Apr 1 23:51:01 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gain Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 18:51:01 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Revisi=F3n_de_Fedora_Core_5?= In-Reply-To: <1143903509.3802.808.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1143903509.3802.808.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <442F11E5.6020009@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >Hi > > >A overview with screenshots from the Spanish overlords. > >http://www.miguialinux.com/content/view/117/58/ > >Rahul > > > Very good review indeed. If you want, I could do a rough translation. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 2 00:50:20 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 06:20:20 +0530 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Revisi=F3n?= de Fedora Core 5 In-Reply-To: <442F11E5.6020009@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1143903509.3802.808.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <442F11E5.6020009@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1143939020.3783.25.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:51 -0500, Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >Hi > > > > > >A overview with screenshots from the Spanish overlords. > > > >http://www.miguialinux.com/content/view/117/58/ > > > >Rahul > > > > > > > Very good review indeed. If you want, I could do a rough translation. I guess that would be useful. I read a machine translation but a few parts were completely unclear. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sun Apr 2 02:06:47 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gain Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 21:06:47 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Revisi=F3n_de_Fedora_Core_5?= In-Reply-To: <1143939020.3783.25.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1143903509.3802.808.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <"442F11E5.60 2 0009"@prodigy.net.mx> <1143939020.3783.25.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <442F31B7.2060003@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >I guess that would be useful. I read a machine translation but a few >parts were completely unclear. > >Rahul > First of all, I appologize for the HTML message, I know it is against Netiquette for some users, but I consider this needed as I will be using different colors (blue for the spanish text and black for the translation of each paragraph, still this text is sent both as plain text and HTML. Fedora Core 5 review: Introducci?n Al igual que las versiones anteriores, FC5 contiene 5 CD y 1 DVD para realizar la instalaci?n que en general sigue las mima secuencia en el instalador Anaconda. Respecto a la versi?n anterior, ahora, tanto la interfaz de instalaci?n como el escritorio tienen un dise?o gr?fico m?s elaborado y agradable a la vista aunque mantiene la sencillez que lo hace discreto y no distrae la atenci?n del usuario. Introduction Just like the prior versions, FC5 has[1] 5 CDs and 1 DVD for installation, which in general terms follows the same sequence of the Anaconda Installer. With respect to the earlier version, now both the installer UI and the desktop have a more elaborate graphic design and more pleasant to the eye, though it keeps the simplicity which makes it discrete and doesn't distract the user's attention. El proceso de instalaci?n solo tiene una novedad en la parte de la selecci?n de software que presenta al usuario tres sencillas opciones: Ofim?tica, Desarrollo de Software y Servidor Web. En mi opini?n es un enfoque muy adecuado para los principiantes que no saben ni se interesan en los detalles y solo desean usar Fedora Core 5. The installation process has a novelty when slectiong software, which presents three simple options: Office, Software Development and Web Server. In my opinion is an adequate angle for new users who don't know and don't care about the details and only wish to start using Fedora Core 5. Por supuesto, incluye la opci?n de personalizar los paquetes a instalar, que es lo mismo que la versi?n anterior pero organizado en un men? de categor?as generales a la izquierda y la lista de paquetes a la derecha muy al tipo selecci?n que usaba Mandriva. Respecto a la versi?n anterior el proceso de instalaci?n tarda mas o menos lo mismo al rededor de 40 minutos, pero se aprecia levemente mas agradable. Of course it includes the option to customize the packages to install, which is the same as the earlier version, but organized in a general category meny to the left and the list of packages to the right, similar to the selection that Mandriva used. With respect to the last version, the installation process runs for about the same time, about 40 minutes, but it's slightly more pleasant. El primer contacto. La pantalla de arranque presenta el mismo enfoque de "menos es mas" (... sencillo. Aunque no siempre). Presenta solo un cronometro para indicas el tiempo para seleccionar alguna otra opci?n. Al iniciar el arranque se presentan algunas notas en formato texto y luego se inicia una interfaz gr?fica que resume las operaciones el arranque. La pantalla inicial de ingreso al sistema tiene un nuevo dise?o en tonos azules muy bien logrado que mantiene el mismo enfoque. Las opciones y los datos mostrados son los que se esperan: el nombre del host, fecha y hora, opciones de sesi?n, apagado, reinicio, etc. The First Contact The boot screen presents the same focus of "less is more" (... simple. Though not always). It presents only one chronometer to indicate the time to select another option. When booting some text is presented and then the graphical boot interface starts which sumirizes the boot sequence. The initial login screen has a new design in blue tones very well done which keeps the same focus. The options and the data shown are those expected: hostname, date and time, session options, shutdown, reboot, etc. El ingreso del nombre de usuario y contrase?a se realiza igual que en la versi?n anterior tecleando el nombre de usuario para luego en el mismo espacio ingresar la contrase?a, que en lo personal me sigue pareciendo algo confuso para los usuarios que ven por primera vez una distribuci?n Linux, claro que es algo lo que f?cilmente se puede acostumbra. Al arrancar el escritorio Fedora Core 5 presenta una imagen que llaman splash screen donde se enuncia el arranque de algunos servicio y al final aparece el escritorio principal con una imagen que presenta el logotipo del proyecto y algunos c?rculos que me parecen burbujas subiendo por el oc?ano en alg?n programa de discovery channel. Entering the username and password is done the smae as in the last version, typing the username to then enter the password in the same space, which personally I still find confusing for new users who see a Linux distribution for the first time, of course it is something you can easily get used to. Entering the Fedora Core 5 desktop, presents an image called "splash screen" wehre the desktop services are sumirized, and at the end the main desktop is shown which presents the project's logo and some circles that resemble bubbles going up the ocean in some Discovery Channel show. Algo importante de mencionar es que en general el Fedora Core 5 arranca mas r?pido que la versi?n anterior y en general las aplicaciones se comportan de igual manera, sobre todo las aplicaciones GNOME. Not? que el applet de actualizaciones no se carg? por lo que busque la opci?n de actualizaci?n y presenta una nueva interfaz mas sencilla que lista los paquetes disponibles para actualizar. Como la seguridad es muy importante creo que esta es una mejora que permite mantener actualizado el sistema en dos pasos: abrir el programa y dar click en "update". Por desgracia este programa aun muestra los textos en ingl?s. Something worth mentioning is that in general Fedora Core 5 boots faster than the last version and in general the applications behave pretty much the same, especially GNOME applications. I noticed that the updates applet did not load, so I searched for the option to update and it presents a new simpler interface which lists the packages available for update. As security is very important I believe that this is an improvement which allows to keep the system updated in two steps: open the program and click on "update". Sadly the texts in this program still are shown in English. Otro aspecto que me llamo la atenci?n es que Fedora Core 5 incluye Java y est? listo para ejecutar programas como Azureus (un cliente BitTorrent en Java) solo hay que descargarlo, instalarlo y se ejecuta normalmente. Another aspect which caught my eye is that Fedora Core 5 includes Java and is ready to execute programs like Azureus (a Java BitTorrent client) you only have to download, install and execute it normally. Un aspecto en el que Fedora siempre ha estado rezagado es el manejo de paquetes, simplemente manejar paquetes (instalar, actualizar y eliminar) era algo complicado hasta ahora. Fedora incluye una nueva herramienta m?s pr?ctica y ?til que permite listar paquetes por categor?as o listar todos los paquetes con su nombre y descripci?n, as? como buscar alguno en particular. Algo que simplemente no exist?a. Aunque esta herramienta present? algunos errores al momento de probarla creo que es una novedad importante para los usuarios de esta distribuci?n. An aspect in which Fedora has always been lagging behind is package management, simply manage packages (install, update and remove) was something complicated until now. Fedora includes a new tool more practical and useful which allows to install packages by categories or install all packages by name and description, as well as search for one in particular. Something that simply did not exist. Though this tool presented some errors when trying it, I believe that this is an important novelty for the users of this distribution. Respecto a los multimedios Fedora sigue sin poder reproducir los DVDs y archivos MP3, como ya se sabe, no es por falta de m?ritos y capacidad del equipo fedora, sino por las licencias propietarias con las que se publica el software para leer estos medios. Hay que recordar que Fedora est? construido con software libre y de fuente abierta, exclusivamente. Regarding multimedia, Fedora still can't playback DVDs and MP3 files, as it is already known, it is not because of lack of merits and abilities of the Fedora team, but due to proprietary licenses with which the software to read these media is released. Is worth to note that Fedora is built exclussively with free and open source software. Prob? varios Discos USB y todos funcionaron normalmente, con anteriores versiones alguno de ellos no permit?a escribir en la carpeta inicial del USB, no permit?a escribir o necesitaban algo de ajuste en el /etc/fstab. Fedora Core 5 detecto y mont? los diversos discos USB que conect?, incluyendo un disco de 40 GB y sistema de archivos fat32 y una camara digital casio. Leer, escribir, copiar y borrar archivos en estos dispositivos funcion?, todo, sin el menor incidente. I tested various USB disks and all worked normally, with earier versions some of them would not allow writting to initial folder of the USB, would not allow writting at all or needed adjustments to /etc/fstab. Fedora Core 5 detected and mounted the diverse USB disks I connected, including a 40Gb disk and a fat32 filesystem and a digital camera Casio. Reading, writting, copying and erasing files on these devices worked, all, without the minor incident. Sobre los programas de Ofim?tica como OpenOffice.org Write y Calc tiene el soporte de correcci?n ortogr?fica bien configurado y es transparente al usarlo, hoy en d?a, cualquier usuario espera que esta caracter?stica exista casi por omisi?n. About the Office programs like OpenOffice.org Writer and Calc, they have the support for spellchecking well configured and is transparent to the user, today any user would expet this feature to exist, almost by default. Sobre la conectividad con equipos Windows, Fedora Core 5 no tuvo problemas, simplemente se mostr? la carpeta para acceder a los archivos compartidos desde una m?quina Windows y se pudo leer y escribir sin problemas. El compartir en Linux una carpeta para accederla desde una pc con Windows, no fue posible realizarlo (por falta de tiempo para atener este punto). On connectivity with Windows systems, Fedora Core 5 had no troubles, the directory to access the shared files on a Windows machine and it was possible to read and write without problems. Shareing in Linux a directory for access from a Windows PC, was not possible to do (due to lack of time to attend this point). Los Problemas que se presentaron Como es de esperar Fedora Core 5 presento algunos problemas, a?n despu?s de actualizar todos los paquetes, el mas importante sucedi? con la herramienta de administraci?n de paquetes que al momento de intentar instalar un nuevo paquetes arroj? un error y cerr? la aplicaci?n, como es una herramienta nueva creo que r?pidamente estar? disponible la actualizaci?n para corregir esto. Otro problema se presento con el reproductor de medios que no pudo leer archivos .ogg de audio, ni videos en formato mpeg mencionando que faltaban los complementos para ver el tipo de medios. Problems that showed. As is to be expected, Fedora Core 5 did present some problems, even after updating all the packages. The most important occured with the tool to manage packages which at the time of trying to install a new package, dumped an error and the application closed itself, as it is a new tool, I think that an update will be readily available to correct this. Another problem was with the media player which could not read .ogg files, nor video files in mpeg format, stating that the complements to see the type of media were missing. Un extra?? fue el "Ejecutar Comando" en los men?s de Aplicaciones, Lugar y Escritorio. Aunque no se acabar? el mundo si no lo encuentro, puede hacer un d?a mas sencillo y que tanto trabajo es que venga listo desde la instalaci?n. En fin. One thing I missed was "Run command" in the Applications, places and Desktop menus. Although the worl's not going to end if I don't find it, it can make a day simpler and all that work so that it would be available in a default installation. Oh well. Conclusi?n Fedora Core 5 es la versi?n de mas amigable y ?til que el proyecto Fedora ha producido en mi opini?n y aunque definitivamente hay distribuciones que cumplen mejor las tareas del escritorio del usuario casero / de oficina FC5 tiene mas cartas a su favor que en contra, sin embargo que no pueda reproducir MP3 y DVD (ambos realmente muy populares) presenta una desventaja importante para el usuario com?n y el entretenimiento es un tema indiscutible para muchos usuarios promedio, existe el Ogg pero aqu? (al menos en nuestra revisi?n) tambi?n fallo por lo que no puede ser una opci?n en Fedora. Conclusion Fedora Core 5 is the most user friendly and useful version that the Fedora project has produced, in my opinion, and although deffinitely there are distributions which do a better job at the home/office user destkop, FC5 has more cards on its favor than against it, however, the fact that it can't playback MP3 and DVD (both really popular) is an important disadvantage for the common user and entertainment is an unarguable issue for many average users, There's Ogg, but here (at least in our review) it also failed, so it can't be an option in Fedora. Sin embargo fuera del tema de multimedios, trabajar con Fedora Core 5 es por mucho mas agradable, r?pido y sencillo que las versiones anteriores. GNOME 2.14 permite que las cosas funcionen casi al instante (en comparaci?n con FC4) cuando tienes 256 MB en RAM o m?s. Las herramientas de paquetes nuevas quitan la ataduras que se sent?an cuando, por ejemplo, quer?as administrar paquetes o actualizar el sistema, navegar por con nautilus es mas agradable y sin demoras, aunque sigue sin poder poner una ruta en los di?logos de abrir/guardar archivos y en las rutas de las carpetas, creo que algo indispensable. However, outside the issue of multimedia, working with Fedora Core 5 is for by far, much more pleasant, faster and simpler than earlier versions. GNOME 2.14 allows things to work almost instantly (in contrast with FC4) when you only have 256 MB of RAM or more. The packages' new tools eliminate ties that were felt when, for instance, you wanted to manage packages or update the system. Browsing with Nautilus is more pleasant and without delays, although it does not allow a path in the dialogs of open/save files and the paths to directories, something I believe to be indispensable. Creo que el equipo de Fedora realiz? un excelente trabajo en la interfaz y le ha quitado lo acartonado al escritorio con colores muy agradables y un dise?o que sigue siendo sobrio pero atractivo. Lo que mas me gusto fue el dialogo de desbloqueo del protector de pantalla, el anterior era horrible. Que disfruten Fedora Core 5. I think the Fedora team did an excellent job on the interface and they have taken away the boring aspect to the desktop with very pleasant colors and a design that keeps being sobre, but attractive. What I liked the most was the dialog to unlock the screensaver, the other one was horrible. May you enjoy Fedora Core 5. [1]The syntax may not be all that accurate, as the distro is *contained* in 5 CDs. Comments: I find interesting that this reviewer did point out to some aspects of the distribution which may have gone overlooked and he may not be a hardcore Fedora user, but a more casual type of user (for instnace not knowing that the "Run command" dialog exists fromt he add to panel dialog or with the keyboard shortcut alt-F2). Also I find rather odd that he had problems playing back .ogg or mpeg files with Totem (clearly he refers to Totem here)... might be worth checking -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 22:44:43 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 04:14:43 +0530 Subject: Rethinking the Freemedia problem In-Reply-To: <1143912881.3802.828.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1143279537.3975.2.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1143912881.3802.828.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <9fb23eef0604021544j7a69ca1bw70c07c1fe1c7c255@mail.gmail.com> On 4/1/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Again I cant see why you can't use sf.net or savannah for CVS space. We > need significantly more resources to build our own project management > website (not sure what value that would provide over sf.net) and there > are better priorities now. > > Rahul OK, cool... berlios.de though.... Will get on it as soon as possible. Just thought it would be easier to test it live though. :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 3 00:56:14 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 02:56:14 +0200 Subject: 30 minutes presentation In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0603291443t51a40dcdxa23dce1fae4cb89@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0603310406w3ab121a2web3bdafb6b464458@mail.gmail.com> <1143809658.3802.774.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> Report: ---------- My presentation on Thursday was followed by an Install party, which I hosted at my place. The Install party was extended for two days, instead of the initial planned "1600 to midnight" on Saturday. Besides the install party, the objective was to install certain development tools such kdevelop, anjuta ..... Saturday : at 1600 Everyone was right on time :) without free space allocated for the install. :( Every one (7 in all) who was willing to give FC5 a try got a Free FC5 DVD from me, even the guy who was willing to install debian got my LinuxTag's debian dvd for free. But it happens that during the hardware detection, debian wasn't fruitful, so I handed him my Ubuntu Breezy cd, which I got at LinuxWorldExpo in Frankfurt. I made myself a fool when I told that anaconda can resize their NTFS partition. I always thought anaconda could do that. Is it because of patents ? Anyway, thanks to ThomasCanniot on #fedora-fr, I got myself a gparted livecd which resize partitions like a charm. Ill advise anyone who is planning an Install Party to acquire a gparted livecd from http://gparted.sourceforge.net/livecd.php You'll thank me afterwards for the time you will save just for resizing ntfs partitions. at about 1800 the real installation started, everyone fired their installation dvd/cd into their players. Anaconda eased the pressure/stress of each participant. Well done, Anaconda. My assistance was only solicited during the partitioning section. If not, the installation worked like a breeze except for one particular participant. His laptop (P3 1.2GHz) couldn't bear the installation, and shuts down automatically due to overheat. Several attempts did not prove to be successful. But nevertheless, he asked whether the next day (i.e Sunday) I could install FC5 on his desktop. Another user was too stupid to choose a proper keyboard layout, hence the root password was unknown after the installation. He started again. Concerning Ubuntu's installation, well it's a real pain in the neck for swap creation. "Linux for human beings" ??? here it didn't prove to be !! Nevertheless, in Dapper Drake, there might be something more gui : kubuntu http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/espresso/screenshots/ Unlike Fedora's choice of packages, installation of development tools in Ubuntu requires internet = TIME ! What's funny is that "make" isn't installed on a fresh Ubuntu and the search option of synaptic can't find "make". At 0200 (sunday), we decided to continue the install party in the afternoon along with the other desktop installation. FC5 installation in this desktop, proved to be buggy!! But after a quick search on fedoraforum.org, everything went smooth :) Even the installation of ati drivers from livna.org worked like a breath with SELinux=Disabled. See the undergoing discussion about this in my blog. Being myself NOT really a big fan of the "deb" community, I didn't show any negative attitude to the Ubuntu community during this event. Cheers Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 3 01:04:25 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 06:34:25 +0530 Subject: 30 minutes presentation In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0603291443t51a40dcdxa23dce1fae4cb89@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0603310406w3ab121a2web3bdafb6b464458@mail.gmail.com> <1143809658.3802.774.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1144026265.3783.86.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 02:56 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > Report: > ---------- > My presentation on Thursday was followed by an Install party, which I > hosted at my place. > The Install party was extended for two days, instead of the initial > planned "1600 to midnight" on Saturday. > Besides the install party, the objective was to install certain > development tools such kdevelop, anjuta ..... > > Saturday : at 1600 > Everyone was right on time :) without free space allocated for the install. :( > Every one (7 in all) who was willing to give FC5 a try got a Free FC5 > DVD from me, even the guy who was willing to install debian got my > LinuxTag's debian dvd for free. But it happens that during the > hardware detection, debian wasn't fruitful, so I handed him my Ubuntu > Breezy cd, which I got at LinuxWorldExpo in Frankfurt. > > I made myself a fool when I told that anaconda can resize their NTFS > partition. I always thought anaconda could do that. Is it because of > patents ? You cant do resizing without reading the partitions. So the same issues apply. > Anyway, thanks to ThomasCanniot on #fedora-fr, I got myself > a gparted livecd which resize partitions like a charm. > > Ill advise anyone who is planning an Install Party to acquire a > gparted livecd from http://gparted.sourceforge.net/livecd.php > You'll thank me afterwards for the time you will save just for > resizing ntfs partitions. > > at about 1800 the real installation started, everyone fired their > installation dvd/cd into their players. > > Anaconda eased the pressure/stress of each participant. Well done, > Anaconda. My assistance was only solicited during the partitioning > section. If not, the installation worked like a breeze except for one > particular participant. His laptop (P3 1.2GHz) couldn't bear the > installation, and shuts down automatically due to overheat. Several > attempts did not prove to be successful. But nevertheless, he asked > whether the next day (i.e Sunday) I could install FC5 on his desktop. > > Another user was too stupid to choose a proper keyboard layout, hence > the root password was unknown after the installation. He started > again. There is a RFE to test the layout before confirming precisely to avoid this problem. > > FC5 installation in this desktop, proved to be buggy!! What was the bugs? Got any bug reports filed? Rahul From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 3 18:42:24 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:42:24 +0200 Subject: 30 minutes presentation In-Reply-To: <1144026265.3783.86.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0603291443t51a40dcdxa23dce1fae4cb89@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0603310406w3ab121a2web3bdafb6b464458@mail.gmail.com> <1143809658.3802.774.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> <1144026265.3783.86.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604031142i2cfd6889wa88c4cf861864e29@mail.gmail.com> > You cant do resizing without reading the partitions. So the same issues > apply. > > There is a RFE to test the layout before confirming precisely to avoid > this problem. > > > > > FC5 installation in this desktop, proved to be buggy!! > > What was the bugs? Got any bug reports filed? > I've troubleshooted the system with the materials available in fedoraforums.org; but are they any scripts from the Fedora project, if possible, which might gather a maximum of hardware information for troubleshooting / sending to bugzilla ? -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 3 18:53:22 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 00:23:22 +0530 Subject: 30 minutes presentation In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604031142i2cfd6889wa88c4cf861864e29@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0603291443t51a40dcdxa23dce1fae4cb89@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0603310406w3ab121a2web3bdafb6b464458@mail.gmail.com> <1143809658.3802.774.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> <1144026265.3783.86.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604031142i2cfd6889wa88c4cf861864e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1144090402.24151.6.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 20:42 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > You cant do resizing without reading the partitions. So the same issues > > apply. > > > > > There is a RFE to test the layout before confirming precisely to avoid > > this problem. > > > > > > > > FC5 installation in this desktop, proved to be buggy!! > > > > What was the bugs? Got any bug reports filed? > > > > I've troubleshooted the system with the materials available in fedoraforums.org; > > but are they any scripts from the Fedora project, if possible, which > might gather a maximum of hardware information for troubleshooting / > sending to bugzilla ? Sysreport is what we designed for that. http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_35_456.shtm Rahul From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 3 19:01:54 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:01:54 +0200 Subject: 30 minutes presentation In-Reply-To: <1144090402.24151.6.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0603291443t51a40dcdxa23dce1fae4cb89@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0603310406w3ab121a2web3bdafb6b464458@mail.gmail.com> <1143809658.3802.774.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> <1144026265.3783.86.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604031142i2cfd6889wa88c4cf861864e29@mail.gmail.com> <1144090402.24151.6.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604031201wa3841d5j9d427fdc623a58e9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/3/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 20:42 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > > You cant do resizing without reading the partitions. So the same issues > > > apply. > > > > > > > > There is a RFE to test the layout before confirming precisely to avoid > > > this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > FC5 installation in this desktop, proved to be buggy!! > > > > > > What was the bugs? Got any bug reports filed? > > > > > > > I've troubleshooted the system with the materials available in fedoraforums.org; > > > > but are they any scripts from the Fedora project, if possible, which > > might gather a maximum of hardware information for troubleshooting / > > sending to bugzilla ? > > Sysreport is what we designed for that. > > http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_35_456.shtm > Thanks -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From kevinverma at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 00:58:23 2006 From: kevinverma at gmail.com (Kevin Verma) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 06:28:23 +0530 Subject: Representing Fedora Project @ Techfest 06, DAVIET, Jalandhar, India Message-ID: Hello Everyone, This is to inform you all that I've been invited to give a talk/presentation about Fedora at Subjected event, its starting today and runs till tomorrow (4th - 5th April) Fedora Talk is tomorrow on 5th of April, the organizers seems a bit running it all on a very short notice so there is a web site but not much detail of the event, you might like to check that out: http://www.techkriti.info/home.php I'll report how it goes, but maybe I should prepare the presentation first :) Cheers, KEvin From rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org Tue Apr 4 20:48:16 2006 From: rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:48:16 -0300 Subject: FISL 7.0 - in 15 Days In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604031142i2cfd6889wa88c4cf861864e29@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0603291443t51a40dcdxa23dce1fae4cb89@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0603310406w3ab121a2web3bdafb6b464458@mail.gmail.com> <1143809658.3802.774.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0603310500n4dc00858w41a66f2902a3796f@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604021756x1ead9595ka62038835e9d56dd@mail.gmail.com> <1144026265.3783.86.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604031142i2cfd6889wa88c4cf861864e29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4432DB90.7090808@projetofedora.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 They lack only 15 days of the FISL in Porto Alegre - Brazil and so far I did not receive reply about the DVDs and other resources necessary to represent the Fedora in this event. I wait answers ... - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- MESTRANDO EM ENGENHARIA DE SISTEMAS //\ LINHA DE PESQUISA: BANCO DE DADOS V_/_ COPPE/UFRJ PostgreSQL - PHP - WML - Linux +================================================+ Embaixador do Fedora Core no Brasil http://www.projetofedora.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEMtuQPg3HAC1vlg4RAhxxAKDPR6otL7V8xdANCQIrGVdHZRO3IgCgkBXh P0cWctpku4O4MwMC3sKfNxk= =sWaQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Fri Apr 7 12:17:18 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:17:18 -0400 Subject: 1 week with shared media Message-ID: <4436584E.9050901@webpath.net> Good morning everyone. Thought I would give a brief update on how Shared Media is going at On-Disk.com Keep in mind this is more of a "soft" opening, and it's still largely unknown. Some stats...(as of this writing) VIEWS DVD - 174 CD Set - 108 ORDERS DVD - 8 CD sets - 1 SHARED MEDIA DVD Domestic (USA) - 3.5 (two of these are from Max Spevack) DVD Overseas - 1 CD Sets - 0 Please email with any questions or concerns. ~Karlie -- Karlie Robinson Owner, Webpath Technologies On the Web at: http://webpath.net http://on-disk.com http://portal.on-disk.com From rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org Fri Apr 7 12:44:32 2006 From: rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:44:32 -0300 Subject: FISL Message-ID: <44365EB0.6050105@projetofedora.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ol? Menezes. Precisamos definir com o m?ximo de urg?ncia a questao do banner e flyers. E quanto aos notebooks ?? nao consegui achar nada por aqui..... - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- MESTRANDO EM ENGENHARIA DE SISTEMAS //\ LINHA DE PESQUISA: BANCO DE DADOS V_/_ COPPE/UFRJ PostgreSQL - PHP - WML - Linux +================================================+ Embaixador do Fedora Core no Brasil http://www.projetofedora.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFENl6wPg3HAC1vlg4RAsq2AJ0RA/SBQvJuOXWTRSFn0weVl4GNpQCfdOIc nXOU5FIbOyFnv1xS/Af6/YQ= =b7+K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org Fri Apr 7 12:56:13 2006 From: rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:56:13 -0300 Subject: Resources for FISL - Porto Alegre - Brasil Message-ID: <4436616D.1050605@projetofedora.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I need a reply urgently about the resources for the FISL. We have only one week to make the shirts, banners, flyers and DVDs - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- MESTRANDO EM ENGENHARIA DE SISTEMAS //\ LINHA DE PESQUISA: BANCO DE DADOS V_/_ COPPE/UFRJ PostgreSQL - PHP - WML - Linux +================================================+ Embaixador do Fedora Core no Brasil http://www.projetofedora.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFENmFtPg3HAC1vlg4RAmC+AJ9O8KeSCr235CG6NSNuyrrQi1fUuQCfYoX0 vtt0mBzoGVZR5wFZFDj/8RI= =BzYt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From info at kampnytt.com Fri Apr 7 14:21:17 2006 From: info at kampnytt.com (mikael) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:21:17 +0200 Subject: Presentation/Question! In-Reply-To: <20060405160011.B9D5C73278@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20060405160011.B9D5C73278@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4436755D.3050704@kampnytt.com> Hi! First a short presentation. My name is Mikael Jacobsson and i am an Ambassador for Fedora in Sweden. I am currently working on a project which is a website about fedora in Swedish. I will use Geeklog as the base of this site. It will have the basic information about Fedora, some howtos, and some ways of getting help. A website like this is the best way for me to promote Fedora. To be able to do this i need money that i don't have. I am a student with a really bad economy. So i hope that there are possibilities to get help for this. I need about 130 US dollars to get this going. Is there any possibilities to get this help from the Fedoraproject? Best Regards, Mikael Jacobsson From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Apr 7 14:45:00 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:45:00 +0300 Subject: Presentation/Question! In-Reply-To: <4436755D.3050704@kampnytt.com> References: <20060405160011.B9D5C73278@hormel.redhat.com> <4436755D.3050704@kampnytt.com> Message-ID: <44367AEC.2070408@nicubunu.ro> mikael wrote: > > I am currently working on a project which is a website about fedora in > Swedish. I will use Geeklog as the base of this site. It will have the > basic information about Fedora, some howtos, and some ways of getting > help. A website like this is the best way for me to promote Fedora. > > To be able to do this i need money that i don't have. I am a student > with a really bad economy. So i hope that there are possibilities to get > help for this. I need about 130 US dollars to get this going. > > Is there any possibilities to get this help from the Fedoraproject? I'll throw my two cents: I guess you will have a better chance asking for a different kind of help, for example ask for a (temporary) hosting solution, this is much more easy to get. For what other things do you need money? A customized skin for Geeklog, a logo or something like this? I am sure people will offer to help do the work. -- nicu with some fresh CD Art: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/cdart/ From info at kampnytt.com Fri Apr 7 17:15:07 2006 From: info at kampnytt.com (mikael) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:15:07 +0200 Subject: Presentation/Question! In-Reply-To: <20060407160007.1883A735E5@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20060407160007.1883A735E5@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44369E1B.8010706@kampnytt.com> >I'll throw my two cents: I guess you will have a better chance asking >for a different kind of help, for example ask for a (temporary) hosting >solution, this is much more easy to get. >For what other things do you need money? A customized skin for Geeklog, >a logo or something like this? I am sure people will offer to help do >the work. The only help i need is with a proper domain and a place to put the website. All other things i can do myself... From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Apr 8 07:29:38 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 10:29:38 +0300 Subject: Presentation/Question! In-Reply-To: <44369E1B.8010706@kampnytt.com> References: <20060407160007.1883A735E5@hormel.redhat.com> <44369E1B.8010706@kampnytt.com> Message-ID: <44376662.4020308@nicubunu.ro> mikael wrote: >> I'll throw my two cents: I guess you will have a better chance asking >> for a different kind of help, for example ask for a (temporary) >> hosting solution, this is much more easy to get. >> For what other things do you need money? > > The only help i need is with a proper domain and a place to put the > website. All other things i can do myself... You can use the Fedora Community Portal http://fcp.homelinux.org/ as an example: it does not have a "proper" domain name (but a free service instead) and display at the bottom of the page a banner for its hosting provider. Is no shame to do this, start small and when your website grows it may become self-sustainable. -- nicu, without a proper domain either and with borrowed hosting http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From kevinverma at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 07:31:32 2006 From: kevinverma at gmail.com (Kevin Verma) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 13:01:32 +0530 Subject: Representing Fedora Project @ Techfest 06, DAVIET, Jalandhar, India In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, This is to follow up on the announce of my talk earlier. this was delivered in presence of some 300+ audience at DAVIET, Jalandhar (Punjab) India. There is an Fedora Install fest due ahead on April 11th at DAVIET, Jalandhar. Cheers, Kevin On 4/4/06, Kevin Verma wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > This is to inform you all that I've been invited to give a > talk/presentation about Fedora at Subjected event, its starting today > and runs till tomorrow (4th - 5th April) > > Fedora Talk is tomorrow on 5th of April, the organizers seems a bit > running it all on a very short notice so there is a web site but not > much detail of the event, you might like to check that out: > http://www.techkriti.info/home.php > > I'll report how it goes, but maybe I should prepare the presentation first :) > > Cheers, > KEvin > From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 9 07:33:51 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 13:03:51 +0530 Subject: Representing Fedora Project @ Techfest 06, DAVIET, Jalandhar, India In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1144568032.2294.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sun, 2006-04-09 at 13:01 +0530, Kevin Verma wrote: > Hello, > > This is to follow up on the announce of my talk earlier. this was > delivered in presence of some 300+ audience at DAVIET, Jalandhar > (Punjab) India. Great. Can you tell us something about the experience? Presentations? Photos? It would be good to share the details. Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Apr 10 21:16:59 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:16:59 -0500 Subject: eWEEK Fedora Core 5 Review: "Fedora Core 5: Shape Shifter" Message-ID: <200604101617.02256.nman64@n-man.com> This is a great look at Fedora Core 5 by Jason Brooks of eWEEK Labs. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1948047,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616 -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 11 16:03:59 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:03:59 +0200 Subject: OSS: more info Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604110903w1509b74at5865b21e9999511e@mail.gmail.com> >From a department of the Mitsubishi Research Group. See here: http://oss.mri.co.jp/i2oss/ Table of Contents 1. What is Open Source Software? 2. OSS Application Fields and Installation of OSS 3. Major OSS and Distributions 4. Philosophy and History of Open Source Software 5. OSS Development and the OSS Community 6. OSS Business 7. Case Studies in OSS Business 8. OSS Government Policy and E-Government 9. Features of OSS 10. Issues with OSS 11. Development Tools 12. Maintaining Software and Development Examples Hope it might be somehow useful to you :) Regards, Chitlesh GOORAH -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 11 17:10:26 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:10:26 -0700 Subject: OSS: more info In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604110903w1509b74at5865b21e9999511e@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604110903w1509b74at5865b21e9999511e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604111010j7c3f4689w68ad99f61136dc04@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > >From a department of the Mitsubishi Research Group. > > See here: > http://oss.mri.co.jp/i2oss/ > Nice, they mentioned Fedora Core 4 beginning page 35. :) -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 12 06:51:48 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:21:48 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 5: A very personal review Message-ID: <1144824708.2294.257.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi A relatively short review low on details but if anyone wants to send in feedback to this review, go ahead and copy to this list. Thanks http://www.nuxified.com/fedora-core-5-a-very-personal-review Rahul From rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org Wed Apr 12 20:24:57 2006 From: rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:24:57 -0300 Subject: Fedora Arts - DVD - T-shirts - Banner - Flyer Message-ID: <443D6219.3010203@projetofedora.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi People!!!! These are the arts created for FISL (Brasil). Fedora Banner (120cm x 90cm ) - - www.projetofedora.org/arquivos/fisl/fedora_banner.jpg Fedora DVD (FEDORA CORE 5) - - www.projetofedora.org/arquivos/fisl/fedora_dvd.jpg Fedora Flyer - - www.projetofedora.org/arquivos/fisl/fedora_flyer.jpg Fedora t-shirt Black (S,L,XL) - - www.projetofedora.org/arquivos/fisl/blackt.jpg Fedora t-shirt White (S,L,XL) - - www.projetofedora.org/arquivos/fisl/blankt.jpg Artwork by Jayme Ayres (jayme.ayres AT gmail.com) - - http://jaymeayres.orgfree.com/ - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- MESTRANDO EM ENGENHARIA DE SISTEMAS //\ LINHA DE PESQUISA: BANCO DE DADOS V_/_ COPPE/UFRJ PostgreSQL - PHP - WML - Linux +================================================+ Embaixador do Fedora Core no Brasil http://www.projetofedora.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEPWIYPg3HAC1vlg4RAu9qAJ9UUYI1eIDQHiSVHEqiqzy8DQaIcwCdGUqH h/hiP5smdiwkKzWvi1E+Viw= =BMRN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 13 06:38:39 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:08:39 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 5 ready for corporate desktops, reviewer reports Message-ID: <1144910320.2294.329.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi A new twist to the same story. http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7763418879.html Rahul From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Thu Apr 13 18:12:11 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:12:11 -0400 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important Message-ID: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> Interesting article about how the free (pirated) copies of MS and MSOffice positively effect the bottom line. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-micropiracy9apr09,0,414067.story -- Karlie Robinson Owner, Webpath Technologies On the Web at: http://webpath.net http://on-disk.com http://portal.on-disk.com From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 23:22:55 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:22:55 -0400 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards Message-ID: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> I take the lack of glabels templates for the Fedora business cards idea as a personal affront to my heroic effort to keep a glabels package maintained in Extras. In an effort to save your very souls from my insatiable rage I have demeaned myself to create an example glabels template which laughs in the face of the .odt template which cowers in my template's presence. So incredibly frightened is the odt template by the awesome majesty of the glabels template that the it has failed to even heed the ancient evolutionary compulsion to void its bowels in preparation for a dash for survival. For it is obvious to the odt templates higher brain, that fighting my glabels template is no option and fleeing from its devastating countenance is folly. The odt template's only hope is to play dead, but such hope is slim because the glabels template hunts for its prey with uncanny supernatural abilities. Anyways... i made a glabels example template for the business cards, using the banner and logo scavanged from the wiki and the fedora-logos package. It would have been better if i could have found an svg banner. And no I can't put more than one type of business card in a single file.. so if you want to included glabels templates on the wikipage you'll need to have one per type of card layout. They are wicked easy to make though. -jef"You know.. you can use glabels to make stickers... la de da de da"spaleta From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 23:23:49 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:23:49 -0400 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910604131623u46a6467ay222fb2153058c576@mail.gmail.com> Url for the template: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fedora-color-businesscard.glabels -jef From tchung at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 13 23:53:26 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:53:26 -0700 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604131653n150b84a3me062863d42bcabc1@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I take the lack of glabels templates for the Fedora business cards > idea as a personal affront to my heroic effort to keep a glabels > package maintained in Extras. Actually, it's very good idea. I used to use glabels in the past and I almost forget glabels is now part of Fedora Extras. As an initiative for Fedora Media Project conjuction with Fedora Art Project. I've created Fedora Core 5 DVD glabels template at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 00:06:41 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:06:41 -0400 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604131653n150b84a3me062863d42bcabc1@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> <369bce3b0604131653n150b84a3me062863d42bcabc1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910604131706q19358fc2qa71a0adaee780c3b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Thomas Chung wrote: > As an initiative for Fedora Media Project conjuction with Fedora Art Project. > I've created Fedora Core 5 DVD glabels template at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia sweeeeet. I've been wanting something "officialish" for cdrom/dvd iso labels for a while.. and I'd lvoe to see them placed on the isos themselves so people burning their own isos can whip up their own press on labels too. A couple of suggestions for the template. Can you make an obvious spot for a co-branding area so we can have things like "purchased from blah.com" or "supplied by Lug Foo". There's definitely room on the label, so it might be good to add a little text bubble in the template on the left side as a sort of recommended "this is where co-branding should go" hint. You might even want to fill that bubble with example text that points people to the trademark guideline url. Co-branding is good for the organizations pressing media AND it helps identify exactly which organization is responsible for the warrenty on the media as per the trademark guidelines. -jef From tchung at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 00:15:25 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:15:25 -0700 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604131706q19358fc2qa71a0adaee780c3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> <369bce3b0604131653n150b84a3me062863d42bcabc1@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910604131706q19358fc2qa71a0adaee780c3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604131715u1589c300m5f819875c06bdd5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > A couple of suggestions for the template. Can you make an obvious spot > for a co-branding area so we can have things like "purchased from > blah.com" or "supplied by Lug Foo". Co-branding sounds good. :) I added "Courtesy of Fedora Project" in the left space. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Apr 14 05:57:16 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:57:16 +0300 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443F39BC.2040509@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Anyways... i made a glabels example template for the business cards, > using the banner and logo scavanged from the wiki and the fedora-logos > package. It would have been better if i could have found an svg > banner. And no I can't put more than one type of business card in a > single file.. so if you want to included glabels templates on the > wikipage you'll need to have one per type of card layout. They are > wicked easy to make though. I modified your design by replacing the graphics with SVG versions and uploaded a couple of designs: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NicuBuculei?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fedora-color-businesscard.glabels http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NicuBuculei?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fedora-color-businesscard1.glabels The second is more shiny but the first is simpler and better for print. -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From cyberspy at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 09:50:20 2006 From: cyberspy at fedoraproject.org (CyberSpy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 05:50:20 -0400 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> Message-ID: <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> Karlie, I totally agree. I find it interesting that both Hal Varian and Bill Gates would both akin Microsoft to drugs and "addiction". With that said, I think it further fuels the need for some sort of LiveCD. I keep a laptop in my car with some DVD ISO's, as a pre-emtpive "Ambassador Survival Kit" of sorts until we have one available and one of the first things I do when I show someone the laptop (it seems no matter where you go, if you are using a laptop someone will come over and want to check it out or talk) is change the desktop to KDE and use a theme/style that is very familiar to them, and usually I get a "I had no idea Linux was like that" or some other such variant and then the influx of questions follows ("can you do this, that the other thing"). But the point to that being, most people started off on Windows, so they are "used" to it like that article says, since the "free dose" is supplied with the computer when they purchase it. I really hope an agreed upon LiveCD is available soon and glad I chose to swallow the right colored pill. -- Surreptitiously Yours, CyberSpy www.cyberspy.ws -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Fri Apr 14 12:04:30 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:04:30 -0400 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> Good morning, CyberSpy. Well if it is an addiction, then maybe we should find a strategy that will begin the Linux addiction as early as possible? (I feel dirty now. :-) ) Not so long ago (5 years) I did inside sales for Iomega (zip drives,etc). My account coverage area was Government and Education. And the experience jogs the idea I'm about to spew. What about going after school districts? "Wanna buy zip drives OEM with your Next PC purchase?" Is a bit tougher to swallow than... "Wanna know how your school district can save thousands of dollars a year on license fees?" This is a Pain/Solution marketing dream, and all we have to do is make the change from Windows to Fedora less expensive than continuing to buy seats. Not unreasonable to use a 5 year time frame to show the Return on investment. Pain - K-12 School districts in New York State (as an example) are always fighting funding cuts. They may do well for a few years, then something happens and they're wondering if they cut after school sports or stop providing buses to bring kids to school. Solution - It's just not necessary to buy per-seat license for your computers. Its not necessary to buy Anti-virus and malware software to plug the holes in OS you paid so much money for. Breath new life into those older machines you'll never be able to upgrade to Vista. Issues that would need to be addressed to take this main stream... New computer systems themselves. We all know you can't buy a PC/Laptop from a Major Manufacturer without an OS, let alone a Linux desktop distro installed. It might take some Red Hat Muscle to convince a major (dell, gateway, even apple for their Intel etc) to go with us, or find the right white-box company to back. Training the teachers. This may be accomplished on a district by district basis, or by teaching a mix of individuals by piggy-backing on a conference or event. (booth at a convention?) I do have more ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on a k-12 educational target. ~Karlie From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 12:48:18 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:48:18 -0400 Subject: example glabels template for fedora business cards In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604131623u46a6467ay222fb2153058c576@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604131622w27db52c3ye1575d2be44a07ff@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910604131623u46a6467ay222fb2153058c576@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145018898.2035.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 19:23 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Url for the template: > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fedora-color-businesscard.glabels Jef, I mangled your card and added an extra version to your page. (Sorry to meddle in your user space, I just didn't want there to be any doubt about the credit.) :-) I made the following changes: - Higher resolution source for the fedora logo - Tweaked the gradient in the SVG since the white somewhat obliterates the readability of the bubble logo http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fedora-color-businesscard2.glabels If the size or positioning of anything looks bad, please tweak to your heart's content. I didn't have a lot of time to do careful comparisons to your original. Great work! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 14:57:49 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:27:49 +0530 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> Message-ID: <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 08:04 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > I do have more ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on a k-12 > educational target. > > ~Karlie Fortunately one already exists. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Education http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 15:44:07 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:14:07 +0530 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> Message-ID: <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 11:13 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:27:49 0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote > > > Fortunately one already exists. > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Education > > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list > > > > Rahul > on first look it seems passive. am I missing the active part of talking to > those who'll need information to decide on a school wide roll out? > > ~Karlie It is passive unless people get active ;-). Its just a few days old so you still have a lot of room to do interesting things with it. Just pointing it out as a gateway. Try it. Rahul From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Fri Apr 14 16:12:00 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:12:00 -0400 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 16:50:20 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:20:20 +0530 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> Message-ID: <1145033422.2294.379.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 12:12 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > It is passive unless people get active ;-). Its just a few days old so > > you still have a lot of room to do interesting things with it. Just > > pointing it out as a gateway. Try it. > > > > Rahul > I thought I was getting active? I dont know what you mean by that. How were you getting active? If you want to work on a educational project promoting Fedora to school, I already pointed out the means to do so. You can subscribe to that list and post your ideas there. Rahul From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Fri Apr 14 17:26:21 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:26:21 -0400 Subject: Active Vs Passive was..Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> Message-ID: <443FDB3D.6000302@webpath.net> The information I read on the Edu page talks about vocational training for students. What I'm talking about is a no-holds-bared *marketing* assault on the installed computer base in schools. I'm not talking about teaching a few-thousand like-minded students how to run Fedora so they can land a job as an Enterprise Admin. I'm talking about convincing Schools to spend their Computer/Technology budget rolling out Linux, so a few Million kids can enjoy the freedom OSS brings. By actively searching out people who have the authority (common term "decision maker") to say to their board... "By going Linux, we will save thousands of dollars on software. That money can then be used for [fill in the blank]." When it comes down to it, it's not about jobs operating Red Hat. My idea was about getting Fedora on Millions of class room PC's. Think beyond enterprise servers for a moment and see what millions of little kids using Fedora/Linux means to the big picture and to the RH bottom line in years to come. If my marketing ideas aren't helpful to you here, I won't waste any more of your time. ~Karlie From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 17:46:37 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:16:37 +0530 Subject: Active Vs Passive was..Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <443FDB3D.6000302@webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> <443FDB3D.6000302@webpath.net> Message-ID: <1145036798.2294.392.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 13:26 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > The information I read on the Edu page talks about vocational training > for students. > The mailing list is different from the wiki page which is why I gave them both to you. Read the list archives for other ongoing discussions before jumping into conclusions. > What I'm talking about is a no-holds-bared *marketing* assault on the > installed computer base in schools. > > I'm not talking about teaching a few-thousand like-minded students how > to run Fedora so they can land a job as an Enterprise Admin. > > I'm talking about convincing Schools to spend their Computer/Technology > budget rolling out Linux, so a few Million kids can enjoy the freedom > OSS brings. > > By actively searching out people who have the authority (common term > "decision maker") to say to their board... "By going Linux, we will save > thousands of dollars on software. That money can then be used for [fill > in the blank]." > > When it comes down to it, it's not about jobs operating Red Hat. My > idea was about getting Fedora on Millions of class room PC's. > > Think beyond enterprise servers for a moment and see what millions of > little kids using Fedora/Linux means to the big picture and to the RH > bottom line in years to come. > > If my marketing ideas aren't helpful to you here, I won't waste any more > of your time. > > ~Karlie Again, read the list archives. This is already being discussed there. Rahul From gmaxwell at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 18:01:33 2006 From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:01:33 -0400 Subject: Active Vs Passive was..Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <443FDB3D.6000302@webpath.net> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060414151107.M59885@mail.webpath.net> <1145029447.2294.372.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <443FC9D0.3010908@webpath.net> <443FDB3D.6000302@webpath.net> Message-ID: On 4/14/06, Karlie Robinson wrote: [snip] > little kids using Fedora/Linux means to the big picture and to the RH > bottom line in years to come. > > If my marketing ideas aren't helpful to you here, I won't waste any more > of your time. I think there are some small scale related project out there... for example, trying to get python made the selected programming language in beginning computer science classes in highschools. There should be a lot of opportunity for collaboration on this effort. From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Fri Apr 14 19:29:17 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:29:17 -0400 Subject: Active Vs Passive was..Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443FF80D.9090804@webpath.net> FYI - Clair is on Hotmail right now ~K Clair Shaw wrote: > From: Karlie Robinson > >> >> What I'm talking about is a no-holds-bared *marketing* assault on the >> installed computer base in schools. > > > Hi, this is a good idea; I'm wondering if this is something that can > be done through the Word Of Mouth project? Word of mouth will surely help, and it will help bring in warm leads. It may also take longer to get people on board. It may need to start with a "Seed" school and then systematically find decision makers to talk with. The very first "seed" would be a pilot program. They would be a willing participant aware that there are going to be bumps along the way. Which isn't that hard to overcome as long as they know we're willing to bust butts to make it right. The Seed would then be an example for the next phase which spreading FOSS to neighboring schools. But the point to make with Schools is saving money. If we're really on the ball, we're going to gather volunteers and do all the installs for the cost of the Pizza and cold drinks. I'd even wager that would cost less than their OS, Antiviurs, and malware cleaner for 1 machine. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 20:49:22 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 02:19:22 +0530 Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security Message-ID: <1145047762.32631.3.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi "The company uses Fedora servers, the free, open source version of Red Hat Linux, to run its production environment and Web presence. As a precaution, Swanson uses the open source Mondo Archive tool to take snapshots of its production server images, and keeps backup configurations that can be brought online quickly in case of failures or system problems." "SE Linux has been terrific," Swanson said. In addition to vetting code before deployment, SE Linux provides another level of assurance that the code won't be exploited. "We deny everything and allow just what we want" into and out of the servers via SE Linux policies, he said. http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/041006-linuxworld.html?page=2 From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 14 20:51:52 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 02:21:52 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 5 Message-ID: <1145047913.32631.6.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi "Think of Fedora as the standalone (and more user-friendly) flavor of Linux Enterprise Desktop, but without the enterprise support. It?s a true community open-source project, sponsored by Red Hat, where new features get something of a test drive before being incorporated into Red Hat Linux. According to the company, version 5?s biggest features are an easier install program with more drivers, and a new, smoother interface. We found that indeed it was extremely easy to use, without sacrificing security (it includes SELinux). In fact of all the programs we tested, this one was the easiest to manage from a user?s perspective." http://www.gcn.com/print/25_7/40266-1.html Rahul From jkeating at j2solutions.net Sat Apr 15 01:34:46 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:34:46 -0400 Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <1145047762.32631.3.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145047762.32631.3.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145064886.12197.8.camel@ender> On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 02:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Swanson uses the open source Mondo Archive tool Interesting. I used to be the packager for Mondo, but then it crumbled as the lead developer moved on in his life. Odd that people are still using it. Especially because I don't recall it using tools that support backing up SELinux attributes. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Apr 15 06:44:12 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:44:12 +0300 Subject: Why getting Shared Media rolling is important In-Reply-To: <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <443E947B.3070501@webpath.net> <108fe3f0604140250q2313a546i81deb86eed5d7956@mail.gmail.com> <443F8FCE.4070605@webpath.net> <1145026669.2294.364.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4440963C.1040405@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 08:04 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > >> I do have more ideas, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on a k-12 >> educational target. > > > Fortunately one already exists. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Education > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list I do not care about k-12 and education subproject enough to join yet another mailing list, so i will throw here my two cents: it think it would be useful if someone would package GCompris (http://gcompris.net/) for Extras. I understand it is highly appreciated by kids and teachers. -- nicu From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 13:36:57 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:36:57 +0200 Subject: WOM : remastering and restructuring Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604170636t47a7c224kee5f1df1781afd2f@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, I wish to propose another face to Word Of Mouth Project (WOM). NOT TO FLAME A WAR! at the present: The Fedora Word Of Mouth Project is a project to give Ambassadors support to help with day to day word of mouth promotion of Fedora, such as introducing the curious, and answering questions and explaining the truth behind myths. This gives Ambassadors more support with non-events, to help Ambassadors Project concentrate an events and meetings. What I wish to stress on how announcement is to be done to the Ambassadors. What do we have here and right now ? - Red Hat Magazine - Ambassador Mailing List - announcement list - Fedora Weekly Report on Fedoraproject.org - FedoraNews.org/cms - fedoraproject.org/people What do the members asking for ? - a seperate mailing list to make announcement - more contributors - right information at the right time The creation of a seperate mailing list to make annoucement for ambassadors seems NOT to be a proper idea. It would be nice that Members of the WOM contribute for - announcement list - Fedora Weekly Report on Fedoraproject.org - FedoraNews.org/cms Advantages: - do not reinventing the wheel since the mechanism is there - enhancing those three mechanisms - more contributors have more time to provide more announcement - help Thomas Chung as well. - many (non-events) ambassadors don't know where to contribute, they will have the chance then - too many lists will complicate life What will be the duty of WOM then ? WOM can take care of these: - announcement list - Fedora Weekly Report on Fedoraproject.org - FedoraNews.org/cms Im not asking for merging since each has a different objective/roadmap. WOM can - Provide enough guidelines which states the differences between those medium for new contributors integrate the project easily. - have a seperate mailing list where WOM contributors can interact - discuss how annoucement / information can be spread properly for Fedora's good - merge the actual contributors of - - announcement list - - Fedora Weekly Report on Fedoraproject.org - - FedoraNews.org/cms - - translators - provide assistance/mechanism to help translators with the announcement - treats requests (from the community/fedora users) which seek a particular information on a particular project. - look whether the wiki pages of a particular fedora project does provide the relevant information or what is lacking. Consequences ? Announcement list is a high traffic list, 99% of traffic which is nothing to do with ambassadors, _or_ WoM. WOM can create a sort of mechanism such as announcement related to ambassadors have [ambassadors] or [amba] in the subject. In the end, not only the Ambassadors will benefit from it but also all the Fedora contributors. Will WOM be part of Marketing afterwards ? why should it not be part of Marketing? WOM is part of the Marketing Project so this is why I wrote to the Marketing mailing list. You can forward it to another appropriate place if you want. Of course, WOM will not be limited to what I wrote :) Cheers, Chitlesh GOORAH -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 14:52:48 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:22:48 +0530 Subject: Faith restored in Desktop Linux Message-ID: <1145285568.349.49.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi Just cited a interesting user experience on Planet GNOME http://msevior.livejournal.com/9719.html Rahul From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Mon Apr 17 21:06:51 2006 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:06:51 -0700 Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <1145064886.12197.8.camel@ender> References: <1145047762.32631.3.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145064886.12197.8.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1145308011.3115.17.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 21:34 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 02:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Swanson uses the open source Mondo Archive tool > > Interesting. I used to be the packager for Mondo, but then it crumbled > as the lead developer moved on in his life. Odd that people are still > using it. Especially because I don't recall it using tools that support > backing up SELinux attributes. Looks like a new developer has picked it up and its seeing active maintenance again. SELinux support via star is listed under the 2.00 release in June 2004. 2.02 says it added ACLs and xattr support to afio. All in all, it seems to have become more useful on Fedora now. http://www.mondorescue.org/ -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Apr 17 21:14:42 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <1145308011.3115.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20060417211442.62471.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > 2.02 says it added ACLs and xattr support to afio. Oooh, I didn't see the xattr support in afio before. That's my favorite archive tool, next to the filesystem's dump utility. (which is why I wish Red Hat would support XFS, but I won't start that argument up again ;-). -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From jkeating at j2solutions.net Mon Apr 17 21:21:52 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:21:52 -0400 Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <1145308011.3115.17.camel@localhost> References: <1145047762.32631.3.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145064886.12197.8.camel@ender> <1145308011.3115.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1145308912.3071.30.camel@ender> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 14:06 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Looks like a new developer has picked it up and its seeing active > maintenance again. SELinux support via star is listed under the 2.00 > release in June 2004. 2.02 says it added ACLs and xattr support to > afio. All in all, it seems to have become more useful on Fedora now. Crazy. I really hope that the code has gone some serious audits. It was not so hot back in the day. Hugo was great, but he was new at programming and security programming wasn't his forte. Is this in Extras anywhere? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Apr 17 21:47:21 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <1145308912.3071.30.camel@ender> Message-ID: <20060417214721.98380.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > Hugo was great, but he was new at programming and security > programming wasn't his forte. You mean like when he was writing direct bytes directly to the CD/DVD without a care about byte order and format? ;-> But he's been coding long enough on Mondo, he has to be a master by now (at least I hope). But what do I know? How many projects have I founded and coded a crapload for? (HINT: 0) Yeah, I've got a few credits here and there, but I think I've contributed maybe 100 lines at the most to any one project. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From jkeating at j2solutions.net Mon Apr 17 21:53:58 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:53:58 -0400 Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <20060417214721.98380.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060417214721.98380.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1145310839.3071.33.camel@ender> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 14:47 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > You mean like when he was writing direct bytes directly to the CD/DVD > without a care about byte order and format? ;-> But he's been > coding long enough on Mondo, he has to be a master by now (at least I > hope). There were things like that, and there were some awful things in mindi that caught my eyes. I fixed a number of tempfile vulns in the code. Mindi got rewritten at some point from sh to perl, so some of that got better, but there was still a lot of fugly stuff laying around. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 11:56:04 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:26:04 +0530 Subject: Users at LinuxWorld talk up security In-Reply-To: <1145310839.3071.33.camel@ender> References: <20060417214721.98380.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1145310839.3071.33.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1145361364.349.113.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 17:53 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 14:47 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > You mean like when he was writing direct bytes directly to the CD/DVD > > without a care about byte order and format? ;-> But he's been > > coding long enough on Mondo, he has to be a master by now (at least I > > hope). > > There were things like that, and there were some awful things in mindi > that caught my eyes. I fixed a number of tempfile vulns in the code. > Mindi got rewritten at some point from sh to perl, so some of that got > better, but there was still a lot of fugly stuff laying around. Its under review in Fedora Extras. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=187317 Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:18:04 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Red Hat Magazine's Fedora Issue Message-ID: Folks might enjoy some light reading, in the latest issue of Red Hat Magazine focusing almost entirely on Fedora: http://www.redhat.com/magazine/ There's some real gems in here -- all of the articles about Fedora are worth a look, in particular: - Greg's FUDCon diary - Rahul's look at FC5 - Igor and Tom's Eclipse articles - my podcast/interview about Fedora Read it, blog about it, spread the word about the stuff you like. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 19 12:06:50 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:06:50 +0200 Subject: IRC French Presentation Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604190506k4901255cs6f44f8053fe575c4@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, As many of you, somehow heard before on IRC, we are planning to make a presentation on IRC about Fedora and how the french community can help. So up till now, we are: AurelienBompard, DamienDurand ThomasCanniot FrederikHornain WilliamHoffman and me. Yesterday night, we (AurelienBompard, DamienDurand, ThomasCanniot and I) had an unexpected meeting on #fedora-fr-meeting for nearly 2hours. The meeting minutes can be found on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChitleshGoorah/fr-meeting in French. The official wiki page is http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/IRCpresentation When, Where, everything is written over there. I welcome everyone to read it over there, to prevent abuse of copy/paste. This event is intended for the promotion of The Fedora Project and how a non-english native can contribute to the success of such big project as The Fedora Project. There will be a Secret guest who will be participating with us too. He/She will be introduced at the beginning of the Presentation. Concerning announcements, after translating http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/IRCpresentation, we will start making announcements everywhere, lugs, news sites ..... A list can be found here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChitleshGoorah/fr-meeting. For some who remember the Umeet conference, it will be similar. Cheers, Chitlesh GOORAH PS: Rahul proposed "vFUDCon" as a more specific title for our event. (v for Virtual) PS: The http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChitleshGoorah/fr-meeting might look like a personal wiki page, nevertheless it is also about checklist for preparation, hence participants have all the rights to edit it. PS: It was a great meeting yesterday :) -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 12:50:13 2006 From: andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com (Andre Nogueira) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:50:13 +0100 Subject: IRC French Presentation In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604190506k4901255cs6f44f8053fe575c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604190506k4901255cs6f44f8053fe575c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2bb88f20604190550x2821798di31a8d48caa1954a0@mail.gmail.com> Hi, It's a wonderful idea! It could probably even be used in other countries/languages. Most of the content doesn't seem to be specifically French, so perhaps people from other countries (maybe especially ambassadors?) could take the idea and adapt it to their own countries. Depending on how it goes, why not create a "general template" of this which could then be used for any country? Most of the questions people ask are always the same, and the presentation itself wouldn't change much in content, just the language, so that kind of stuff could be included in the "template"... What do you think? Or is there already something similar I'm not aware of? Thanks, Andre Nogueira On 4/19/06, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > Hello there, > > As many of you, somehow heard before on IRC, we are planning to make a > presentation on IRC about > Fedora and how the french community can help. > > So up till now, we are: > AurelienBompard, > DamienDurand > ThomasCanniot > FrederikHornain > WilliamHoffman > and me. > > Yesterday night, we (AurelienBompard, DamienDurand, ThomasCanniot and > I) had an unexpected meeting on #fedora-fr-meeting for nearly 2hours. > > The meeting minutes can be found on > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChitleshGoorah/fr-meeting in French. > > The official wiki page is > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/IRCpresentation > When, Where, everything is written over there. I welcome everyone to > read it over there, to prevent abuse of copy/paste. > > This event is intended for the promotion of The Fedora Project and how > a non-english native can contribute to the success of such big project > as The Fedora Project. > > There will be a Secret guest who will be participating with us too. > He/She will be introduced at the beginning of the Presentation. > > Concerning announcements, after translating > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/IRCpresentation, we will > start making announcements everywhere, lugs, news sites ..... > A list can be found here > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChitleshGoorah/fr-meeting. > > For some who remember the Umeet conference, it will be similar. > > Cheers, > Chitlesh GOORAH > > PS: Rahul proposed "vFUDCon" as a more specific title for our event. > (v for Virtual) > > PS: The http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChitleshGoorah/fr-meeting might > look like a personal wiki page, nevertheless it is also about > checklist for preparation, hence participants have all the rights to > edit it. > > PS: It was a great meeting yesterday :) > -- > http://clunixchit.blogspot.com > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Wed Apr 19 19:00:49 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:00:49 -0400 Subject: Sponsored Media needs your help Message-ID: <444688E1.7090404@webpath.net> Good afternoon, All. I'd like to ask all of you to begin spreading the word about Sponsored Media [1]. Of particular interest is getting end users and other vendors familiar with the program in case they're feeling generous. They are sure to learn that Free Media [2] is open again too, so let's try to keep the Sponsored discs on par with the Free Media requests so the form can stay open. Points to remember: Fedora itself isn't asking for monetary donations. Sponsored Media is simply another way for people to contribute [3] to the project by helping ensure Free Media requests are filled. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/SponsoredMedia [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Contribute Questions? Comments? -- Karlie Robinson Owner, Webpath Technologies On the Web at: http://webpath.net http://on-disk.com http://portal.on-disk.com From tchung at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 19 19:08:09 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:08:09 -0700 Subject: Sponsored Media needs your help In-Reply-To: <444688E1.7090404@webpath.net> References: <444688E1.7090404@webpath.net> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604191208va1ebc16q4ee6373f3bde7324@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/06, Karlie Robinson wrote: > Good afternoon, All. > > I'd like to ask all of you to begin spreading the word about Sponsored > Media [1]. Thank you Karlie, For those of you who are not familiar with her, she has been appointed by Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee as a Special Advisor on Volunteer Management last week. We would like to ask to show your support as we plan to learn from her experience. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From tchung at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 19 19:15:18 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:15:18 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Open Source Lab Details for NECC 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <369bce3b0604191156j6878d7cbl4c7baeb9832224d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604191215i79dc43b8j6f42a44325fe63d6@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Steve Hargadon Date: Apr 19, 2006 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Open Source Lab Details for NECC 2006 To: Fedora Education Initiative On 4/19/06, Thomas Chung wrote: > Hi Steve, > > This is my first time hearing "National Educational Computing Conference 2006". > Two questions. > 1. Have you contacted anyone in Fedora Marketing or Fedora Ambassadors > for any help? No. I have been talking with Sarah Jones from Red Hat who does events, and I thought we were going to get some support but I haven't heard from her in some time. I'd be very interested in making contact on either front. Can you help? > 2. Do you have a webiste where we can learn more about this event? The NECC website is at http://center.uoregon.edu/ISTE/NECC2006/. This is the second year I've been asked to lead the Open Source effort there, and the first year that our presenters are actually listed in the program as full speakers. It's significant progress, and came out of providing a similar lineup at the cue.org show in Palm Springs some weeks ago. -- Steve Hargadon Thank you Steve, As a start, I'm forwarding your email to Fedora Ambassadors and Fedora Marketing mailing lists to get an attention. Once we have enough interests and resources, we should be able to find someone to help your event and promote Fedora Project at the same time. -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From tchung at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 19 19:24:22 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:24:22 -0700 Subject: Open Source Lab Details for NECC 2006 In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604191215i79dc43b8j6f42a44325fe63d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <369bce3b0604191156j6878d7cbl4c7baeb9832224d8@mail.gmail.com> <369bce3b0604191215i79dc43b8j6f42a44325fe63d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604191224t73aced4cx8d2322dd7305a95b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/06, Thomas Chung wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Steve Hargadon > Date: Apr 19, 2006 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: Open Source Lab Details for NECC 2006 > To: Fedora Education Initiative > > > On 4/19/06, Thomas Chung wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > This is my first time hearing "National Educational Computing Conference 2006". > > Two questions. > > 1. Have you contacted anyone in Fedora Marketing or Fedora Ambassadors > > for any help? > > No. I have been talking with Sarah Jones from Red Hat who does > events, and I thought we were going to get some support but I haven't > heard from her in some time. > > I'd be very interested in making contact on either front. Can you help? > > > 2. Do you have a webiste where we can learn more about this event? > > The NECC website is at http://center.uoregon.edu/ISTE/NECC2006/. This > is the second year I've been asked to lead the Open Source effort > there, and the first year that our presenters are actually listed in > the program as full speakers. It's significant progress, and came out > of providing a similar lineup at the cue.org show in Palm Springs some > weeks ago. > > -- > Steve Hargadon Also, I just added the event in the HelpWanted/Events page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted/Events Once we have an Ambassador who's in charge, we'll move the event to FedoraEvents: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 17:36:25 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion Message-ID: Howdy folks, The Fedora board needs help with a policy decision. As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions that are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. Kadischi-based Live CDs are a good example. We'd like to be able to allow these distributions to use the Fedora name -- and we've got tentative buy-in from legal to do it -- so long as the distros are built entirely from Fedora (Core+Extras) packages. So. How should the Fedora brand be used in such cases? Let's say, for example, that Rex Dieter builds a minimal Fedora distro that has KDE and no GNOME -- and he wants to call it "KDExcellent". He also wants people to know that it's derived from official Fedora packages. Should we let him call it: + Fedora KDExcellent? + KDExcellent, based on Fedora? + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? Whatever policy we come up with now, we'll be stuck with for quite a while -- so we could use some help. Thanks in advance for your ideas. --Max From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 17:40:31 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:40:31 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/06, Max Spevack wrote: > + Fedora KDExcellent? > + KDExcellent, based on Fedora? > + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? > > Whatever policy we come up with now, we'll be stuck with for quite a > while -- so we could use some help. > > Thanks in advance for your ideas. "Based on Fedora" Additionally, consider have a different "Fedora" logo that "based on Fedora" items can use to visually distinquish "based on" from "official" but is still clearly "fedora". You want both a distinquishable but agreed on text and iconic reference for derived works to use when making an association to fedora. -jef From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Apr 20 17:42:44 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:42:44 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 13:40 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > "Based on Fedora" > > Additionally, consider have a different "Fedora" logo that "based on > Fedora" items can use to visually distinquish "based on" from > "official" but is still clearly "fedora". You want both a > distinquishable but agreed on text and iconic reference for derived > works to use when making an association to fedora. But what about when the Fedora Red Hat "ships" is an amalgum of some packages within the Universe (I hate this word)? Is it only a REAL Fedora when it comes out of Red Hat? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 17:44:36 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:14:36 +0530 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145555076.18551.119.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 13:36 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > Howdy folks, > > The Fedora board needs help with a policy decision. > > As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions that > are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. Kadischi-based Live CDs > are a good example. We'd like to be able to allow these distributions to > use the Fedora name -- and we've got tentative buy-in from legal to do it > -- so long as the distros are built entirely from Fedora (Core+Extras) > packages. > > So. How should the Fedora brand be used in such cases? > > Let's say, for example, that Rex Dieter builds a minimal Fedora distro > that has KDE and no GNOME -- and he wants to call it "KDExcellent". He > also wants people to know that it's derived from official Fedora packages. > Should we let him call it: > > + Fedora KDExcellent? > + KDExcellent, based on Fedora? > + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? > > Whatever policy we come up with now, we'll be stuck with for quite a > while -- so we could use some help. > > Thanks in advance for your ideas. A related thing to drive forward is to make it trivially easy for others to rebrand Fedora when they are creating derivatives. Things that need to be changed - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Branding Derived distributions http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DerivedDistributions Rahul From andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 17:50:01 2006 From: andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com (Andre Nogueira) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:50:01 +0100 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2bb88f20604201050l14a0f780ybd30a65db78410af@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I agree with Jeff - a similar but different logo for those distros seems to be a good idea. As for the actual name, "Based on Fedora" seems to be the best option. But why not have maybe two options people can choose from? Depending on the name of the derived distros, "Based on Fedora" might not work well or might produce an awkward result. Or do some kind of legal issues prevent this? Thanks, Andre On 4/20/06, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > "Based on Fedora" > > Additionally, consider have a different "Fedora" logo that "based on > Fedora" items can use to visually distinquish "based on" from > "official" but is still clearly "fedora". You want both a > distinquishable but agreed on text and iconic reference for derived > works to use when making an association to fedora. From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 17:51:17 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:51:17 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > But what about when the Fedora Red Hat "ships" is an amalgum of some > packages within the Universe (I hate this word)? Is it only a REAL > Fedora when it comes out of Red Hat? Things reviewed and blessed by the Fedora Board get access to the more restricted marks. As in a live-cd that the board reviews and blesses.. gets access to the more restricted marks and don't need to claim "based on". but can still claim "based on." A livecd thats been built from Core+Extras sources but not reviewed/blessed by the board must use "based on" and uses the less restricted mark. If Red Hat wants to ship an amalgum that doesn't get reviewed and blessed by the Fedora Board... then no.. they dont get to use the more restricted mark... neener neener neener. -jef From che666 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 18:03:58 2006 From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:03:58 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2006/4/20, Jeff Spaleta : > On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > > But what about when the Fedora Red Hat "ships" is an amalgum of some > > packages within the Universe (I hate this word)? Is it only a REAL > > Fedora when it comes out of Red Hat? > > Things reviewed and blessed by the Fedora Board get access to the more > restricted marks. As in a live-cd that the board reviews and blesses.. > gets access to the more restricted marks and don't need to claim > "based on". but can still claim "based on." A livecd thats been built > from Core+Extras sources but not reviewed/blessed by the board must > use "based on" and uses the less restricted mark. > > If Red Hat wants to ship an amalgum that doesn't get reviewed and > blessed by the Fedora Board... then no.. they dont get to use the more > restricted mark... neener neener neener. hi |jef| i think thats a pretty good idea of dealing with things in a fair way. but just a question... what if i add a single package that isnt yet in extras nor core... am i not allowed to call it "based on fedora" with only minor changes that are documented in a clean way? with having a distro that is 99,9% fedora (e.g. a live cd... e.g. with distcc...) wouldnt it be still based on fedora from a pure technical point of view? How would i be able to call that live cd then? regards, Rudolf Kastl > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Apr 20 18:09:02 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:09:02 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:03 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > but just a question... what if i add a single package that isnt yet in > extras nor core... am i not allowed to call it "based on fedora" with > only minor changes that are documented in a clean way? > with having a distro that is 99,9% fedora (e.g. a live cd... e.g. with > distcc...) wouldnt it be still based on fedora from a pure technical > point of view? > How would i be able to call that live cd then? That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in Extras (; -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 18:12:52 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: >> But what about when the Fedora Red Hat "ships" is an amalgum of some >> packages within the Universe (I hate this word)? Is it only a REAL >> Fedora when it comes out of Red Hat? > > Things reviewed and blessed by the Fedora Board get access to the more > restricted marks. As in a live-cd that the board reviews and blesses.. > gets access to the more restricted marks and don't need to claim > "based on". but can still claim "based on." A livecd thats been built > from Core+Extras sources but not reviewed/blessed by the board must > use "based on" and uses the less restricted mark. So who gets to use the "second" mark? And how is this any different from a parallel question: how does Fedora "bless" some websites, for example, with the official mark, but not others. Greg and I had an interesting conversation with some of our lawyers not too long ago in which we went to them with the idea of having two marks -- one "official" mark that was strongly protected, and a second mark that was more open and permissive in its terms. What we heard back was a fairly compelling argument for why it's better to just have *one* mark that we maintain guidelines around. That's *the* mark for Fedora, and things that use that mark have the blessing of the Board. The value in monitoring and protecting a second mark was pretty questionable. Greg -- can you chime in a bit here? I don't feel like I'm summarizing that particular conversation very well, and maybe this thread will give us cause to revisit it. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 18:14:50 2006 From: andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com (Andre Nogueira) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:14:50 +0100 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <2bb88f20604201114t1d8bd5adm20459e525fa41206@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > > That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but > adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in > Extras (; That also solves the problem of a distro wanting to use proprietary software (which isn't acceptable in Fedora), while the rest is based on Fedora. (Eg, a distro which includes Acrobat Reader, but appart from that only includes Fedora packages). Otherwise, how would you distinguish an "almost" Fedora-based distro which includes proprietary packages, from another which includes free packages that are not in Fedora or Fedora Extras? Thanks, Andre From che666 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 18:19:41 2006 From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:19:41 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: 2006/4/20, Jesse Keating : > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:03 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > > but just a question... what if i add a single package that isnt yet in > > extras nor core... am i not allowed to call it "based on fedora" with > > only minor changes that are documented in a clean way? > > with having a distro that is 99,9% fedora (e.g. a live cd... e.g. with > > distcc...) wouldnt it be still based on fedora from a pure technical > > point of view? > > How would i be able to call that live cd then? > > That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but > adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in > Extras (; but its still derived from fedora isnt it? distcc is hanging idle in bugzilla for ages :) someone finish the review. regards, Rudolf Kastl > > -- > Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) > Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) > GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQBER84+4v2HLvE71NURAvs8AJ9rRMEFj7UlWdPFSfuOFkwZc1HfiQCgvL/Z > F7w4E343p6FGl6TEZjrxejc= > =Efy5 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > From che666 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 18:20:53 2006 From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:20:53 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <2bb88f20604201114t1d8bd5adm20459e525fa41206@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <2bb88f20604201114t1d8bd5adm20459e525fa41206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2006/4/20, Andre Nogueira : > On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > > That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but > > adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in > > Extras (; > > That also solves the problem of a distro wanting to use proprietary > software (which isn't acceptable in Fedora), while the rest is based > on Fedora. (Eg, a distro which includes Acrobat Reader, but appart > from that only includes Fedora packages). > > Otherwise, how would you distinguish an "almost" Fedora-based distro > which includes proprietary packages, from another which includes free > packages that are not in Fedora or Fedora Extras? > > Thanks, > > Andre well that was exactly my question... what terms are "legal"... i am neither a lawyer nor do i want to consult one at this point :). regards, Rudolf Kastl > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 18:16:08 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:16:08 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145556968.8360.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:03 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > 2006/4/20, Jeff Spaleta : > > On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > But what about when the Fedora Red Hat "ships" is an amalgum of some > > > packages within the Universe (I hate this word)? Is it only a REAL > > > Fedora when it comes out of Red Hat? > > > > Things reviewed and blessed by the Fedora Board get access to the more > > restricted marks. As in a live-cd that the board reviews and blesses.. > > gets access to the more restricted marks and don't need to claim > > "based on". but can still claim "based on." A livecd thats been built > > from Core+Extras sources but not reviewed/blessed by the board must > > use "based on" and uses the less restricted mark. > > > > If Red Hat wants to ship an amalgum that doesn't get reviewed and > > blessed by the Fedora Board... then no.. they dont get to use the more > > restricted mark... neener neener neener. > > hi |jef| > > i think thats a pretty good idea of dealing with things in a fair way. > > but just a question... what if i add a single package that isnt yet in > extras nor core... am i not allowed to call it "based on fedora" with > only minor changes that are documented in a clean way? > with having a distro that is 99,9% fedora (e.g. a live cd... e.g. with > distcc...) wouldnt it be still based on fedora from a pure technical > point of view? > How would i be able to call that live cd then? Due to trademark dilution, I can't see any way a derivative product that is less than 100% Fedora-derived could use the marks at all. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Apr 20 18:22:58 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:22:58 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:19 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > > but its still derived from fedora isnt it? distcc is hanging idle in > bugzilla for ages :) > someone finish the review. > No, because (as Max forgot to mention) the Based on Fedora must be based on the Binary packages, not rebuilds of the source packages. No published Binary, can't use it. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 18:29:33 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:19 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: >> >> but its still derived from fedora isnt it? distcc is hanging idle in >> bugzilla for ages :) >> someone finish the review. >> > > No, because (as Max forgot to mention) the Based on Fedora must be based > on the Binary packages, not rebuilds of the source packages. No > published Binary, can't use it. That's a good point. People have to use the same binaries, signed by Fedora/Red Hat if they want to be "official". We can't trust people to not mess them up or do weird stuff if they rebuild from source. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From che666 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 18:30:42 2006 From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:30:42 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: 2006/4/20, Jesse Keating : > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:19 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > > > > but its still derived from fedora isnt it? distcc is hanging idle in > > bugzilla for ages :) > > someone finish the review. > > > > No, because (as Max forgot to mention) the Based on Fedora must be based > on the Binary packages, not rebuilds of the source packages. No > published Binary, can't use it. > > -- > Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) > Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) > GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQBER9GC4v2HLvE71NURAuNaAJ9wuKem64SyF0ADSH9uyxt4khiRgACgkyEy > /f7+cbIOoFFKRLNGYMXOUNQ= > =U6nE > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > id have to remove all art and branding etc... ok... but then again calling it "derived of fedora" is legal? i am still just curious... sorry for keeping on asking the same question. is only "fork of fedora" legal then? From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Apr 20 18:39:10 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:39:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145558350.19720.8.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:30 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > id have to remove all art and branding etc... ok... > > but then again calling it "derived of fedora" is legal? i am still > just curious... sorry for keeping on asking the same question. is only > "fork of fedora" legal then? IANAL, but as long as it isn't in the name of the product, or the logo of the product, I think in the documentation you can reference that it was built from or based on Fedora. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rodrigomenezes12 at yahoo.com.br Thu Apr 20 19:14:37 2006 From: rodrigomenezes12 at yahoo.com.br (Rodrigo Menezes) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:14:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FISL Update Message-ID: <20060420191437.65723.qmail@web33808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi guys, We are in the second day of FISL event, below you can find some photos. We'll update the website as soon as the event is running. http://projetofedora.org/node/28 We found some guys from Red Hat, Christofer came with OLPC, some Juan Ruiz and other guys. They seen to be happy with ou presence here. We wanna says thanks to you all. Our webdesigner (Jayme Ayres) says: "I'm sorry", because the templates in the website is not good. We'll fix this as soon as we find some time. Thanks guys! Rodrigo Menezes --------------------------------- Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail - 1GB de espa?o, alertas de e-mail no celular e anti-spam realmente eficaz. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 19:15:15 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:15:15 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604201215h1584c1ecs4e5573a84011b12c@mail.gmail.com> Hello, This is a pretty confusing decision to take. Since last week in the Fedora Live-CDs, there were talks and more confusion about it. see https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2006-April/msg00110.html and related talks about it. They are highly useful if (as Max said) we are choosing the idea of having two marks Chitlesh GOORAH On 4/20/06, Max Spevack wrote: > Howdy folks, > > The Fedora board needs help with a policy decision. > > As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions that > are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. Kadischi-based Live CDs > are a good example. We'd like to be able to allow these distributions to > use the Fedora name -- and we've got tentative buy-in from legal to do it > -- so long as the distros are built entirely from Fedora (Core+Extras) > packages. > > So. How should the Fedora brand be used in such cases? > > Let's say, for example, that Rex Dieter builds a minimal Fedora distro > that has KDE and no GNOME -- and he wants to call it "KDExcellent". He > also wants people to know that it's derived from official Fedora packages. > Should we let him call it: > > + Fedora KDExcellent? > + KDExcellent, based on Fedora? > + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? > > Whatever policy we come up with now, we'll be stuck with for quite a > while -- so we could use some help. > > Thanks in advance for your ideas. > > --Max > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From sgk284 at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 19:12:47 2006 From: sgk284 at gmail.com (Stephen Krenzel) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:12:47 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145558350.19720.8.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145558350.19720.8.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1fa01fe80604201212q6ad437ccv4260b4af235de784@mail.gmail.com> When I think of "based on Fedora", to me that means that someone started off with Fedora and modified it to get whatever they have. From a legal stand point, that is blurry, but adding or subtracting packages should count. If you leave "based on Fedora" distros to those which only use a subset of the official packages, than you're really cutting out alot of people. I guess you could argue that the people could just maintain the additional packages in extras, but that isn't always the answer nor the best solution. If the guidelines are as restrictive as proposed then we are not going to achieve the desired effect. A lot of people make custom knoppix cd's with software that isn't on the original knoppix CD, that's one of the benefits of being able to do so, but they still claim that it is based off of knoppix. If you want to see people pick up Fedora and start creating derivatives like crazy (it's good PR), then the terms need to be more lenient. Yes, I know it is horrible from a legal point of view, but this is what the community has come to expect. The last thing we need is to throw the legal department at some hobbyist who made a personal distro with OpenMosix or something that isn't in Extras (not sure if OpenMosix is or isn't, just using it as an argument), and he puts it up on his site for people to download and says "Hey I made this custom CD that is based off of Fedora, but designed to set up an OpenMosix cluster". According to the guidelines proposed, legal would have to step in. It'd be horrible to the users, and to Fedora's image (I can see the headlines on Slashdot now). I'm just saying that people should be able to claim their work is based off of Fedora even if it includes non-fedora packages. -Steve On 4/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:30 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > > id have to remove all art and branding etc... ok... > > > > but then again calling it "derived of fedora" is legal? i am still > > just curious... sorry for keeping on asking the same question. is only > > "fork of fedora" legal then? > > IANAL, but as long as it isn't in the name of the product, or the logo > of the product, I think in the documentation you can reference that it > was built from or based on Fedora. > > -- > Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) > Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) > GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQBER9VO4v2HLvE71NURAv9uAJ9Cdi9cgJDL9TlAeCYHW8Jb8D6osACggNMI > ZT6uvoFzONzx/OC/F0qw4Hs= > =N7De > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Apr 20 19:27:15 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:27:15 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1fa01fe80604201212q6ad437ccv4260b4af235de784@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145558350.19720.8.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1fa01fe80604201212q6ad437ccv4260b4af235de784@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145561235.19720.10.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:12 -0400, Stephen Krenzel wrote: > I'm just saying that people should be able to claim their work is > based off of Fedora even if it includes non-fedora packages. And I said I do believe you can claim your product is based on Fedora, but it can't have the Fedora Logo, nor use the Fedora name. We do need to come up with a script or such to strip out this stuff easily. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Frederic.Hornain at GB.BE Thu Apr 20 19:51:22 2006 From: Frederic.Hornain at GB.BE (Hornain Frederic) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:51:22 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion References: Message-ID: Dear all, Well, for this kind of distributions we could create a special commitee who will be relevant to say if these ones could be defined as being compatible with the requirement of the original distribution . Maybe we could create a label like "Fedora core 5 approved" or "Fedora core 5 based" Just an idea. Best Reagards Fred -----Original Message----- From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com on behalf of Max Spevack Sent: Thu 20/04/2006 19:36 To: fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion Howdy folks, The Fedora board needs help with a policy decision. As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions that are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. Kadischi-based Live CDs are a good example. We'd like to be able to allow these distributions to use the Fedora name -- and we've got tentative buy-in from legal to do it -- so long as the distros are built entirely from Fedora (Core+Extras) packages. So. How should the Fedora brand be used in such cases? Let's say, for example, that Rex Dieter builds a minimal Fedora distro that has KDE and no GNOME -- and he wants to call it "KDExcellent". He also wants people to know that it's derived from official Fedora packages. Should we let him call it: + Fedora KDExcellent? + KDExcellent, based on Fedora? + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? Whatever policy we come up with now, we'll be stuck with for quite a while -- so we could use some help. Thanks in advance for your ideas. --Max -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3547 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 20:05:50 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:05:50 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604201305i1066da2bh1852678af0c2d4c2@mail.gmail.com> > Greg and I had an interesting conversation with some of our lawyers not > too long ago in which we went to them with the idea of having two marks -- > one "official" mark that was strongly protected, and a second mark that > was more open and permissive in its terms. #001 For the second one, we can propose a different fedora-logos-XXX.rpm. Thus as it's said here http://fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/page5.html there wont corruption for mere deletion of certain files. If we don't propose another fedora-logos-XXX.rpm, guidelines will be enough. #002 Last time, for Kadischi I came up with some Legal stuffs due to some requests on the matter. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal Its contents are what we are proposing for the moment. #003 To my guess, these are some areas of thoughts we must be working on for branding: *built from - Fedora Core, Extras Packages only - Fedora Core, Extras Packages with own packages which are abiding Fedora Policies. ---> ask to push to Extras - Fedora Core, Extras Packages with propriety softwares ---> I know Livna is not officially supported. but at least we might as them to push their propriety packages over there. But still it's against Fedora Policy. - from sources provided by fedora *Derived From Fedora * a fork of Fedora #004, would there be special marks for product of livecd tool (kadischi) provided by the Fedora Project? If yes, I should work on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal as well. Chitlesh -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Apr 20 20:21:56 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:21:56 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 02:09:02PM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but > adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in > Extras (; What? That makes no logical sense. You're saying that something takes a _base_ of Fedora and builds on that base by adding additional packages is some way not _based_ on Fedora? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Apr 20 20:27:30 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:27:30 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1145564850.19720.14.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 16:21 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 02:09:02PM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but > > adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in > > Extras (; > > What? That makes no logical sense. You're saying that something takes a > _base_ of Fedora and builds on that base by adding additional packages is > some way not _based_ on Fedora? I used the wrong term. If we're going to allow the logo to be used on anything that is 'BUILT' from Fedora binary packages (Core+Extras), then as soon as you add anything to that outside of existing Core+Extras packages then it can't use the logo. That's what I was trying to drive. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 20:31:58 2006 From: andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com (Andre Nogueira) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:31:58 +0100 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <2bb88f20604201331w6411a667wd2698d2c842f40ec@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I think people are mixing several things, hence the confusion... When talking about a "Fedora-based distro", there are actual three possible things: 1) A distro which uses ONLY packages which are in Fedora's repository (including Extras) 2) A distro which uses packages which are NOT in Fedora's repositories (not even Extras), but all the packages it uses are free (as in speech). 3) Same as 2), but uses proprietary packages (Macromedia Flash, Acrobat Reader, MP3 codec, etc). I believe everyone agrees that 1) is a Fedora-based distro, and that 3) could never be accepted because it uses proprietary software. As such, we only have to discuss 2). Regarding 2), there are two possible results: 1) Submit the packages to Fedora Extras, and problem solved 2) Allow the distro to be "Fedora-Based" even though the packages aren't in Fedora Extras. Seeing that it's free software we're talking about, I see no problem in having to make them available in Extras - after all, the rest of the community wins with this, because they can get them from there too. What do you think? Thanks, Andre On 4/20/06, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 02:09:02PM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > That is no longer based on Fedora. That includes parts of Fedora, but > > adds to it, and thus cannot be claimed to be Fedora. Get the package in > > Extras (; > > What? That makes no logical sense. You're saying that something takes a > _base_ of Fedora and builds on that base by adding additional packages is > some way not _based_ on Fedora? > From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Thu Apr 20 21:27:32 2006 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:27:32 -0700 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <2bb88f20604201331w6411a667wd2698d2c842f40ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> <2bb88f20604201331w6411a667wd2698d2c842f40ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145568452.3178.58.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 21:31 +0100, Andre Nogueira wrote: > Hi, > > I think people are mixing several things, hence the confusion... > > When talking about a "Fedora-based distro", there are actual three > possible things: > > 1) A distro which uses ONLY packages which are in Fedora's repository > (including Extras) > > 2) A distro which uses packages which are NOT in Fedora's repositories > (not even Extras), but all the packages it uses are free (as in > speech). > > 3) Same as 2), but uses proprietary packages (Macromedia Flash, > Acrobat Reader, MP3 codec, etc). > > I believe everyone agrees that 1) is a Fedora-based distro, and that > 3) could never be accepted because it uses proprietary software. > As such, we only have to discuss 2). > I don't agree:: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=based based adj 1: being derived from (usually followed by `on' or `upon'); "a film based on a best-selling novel" So in this sense, all of your examples are "based on Fedora". It seems that Jesse's clarifications are what's important here. Any distribution can say it is "based on Fedora" in its documentation, website, etc. They are restricted in their ability to use the Fedora Logos as part of their logo and Fedora *in their name*. As far as I can see, Max's proposal is how to relax these restrictions for distributions which consist entirely of Fedora Software (currently FC + FE; your #1 above) Keeping this in mind, I think "based on Fedora" is a point of confusion to those who would want to use "Based on Fedora" as part of their distro which contain packages from outside FC + FE. "Fedora KDExcellent" is a very close association with Fedora. It would be neat if projects similar to KUbuntu or EdUbuntu grew up in this namespace. The question would be, do you let this happen by giving everyone the ability to spin their one-off distributions as "Fedora Foo" and seeing which ones flourish? Or do you wait for one to flourish and then see if the project would like to be officially blessed with the "Fedora" cognomen? (Personally, I don't see this second approach working. Imagine that CentOS were based on Fedora instead of RHEL. Do you think they'd change their name to Fedora CentOS if we said that they'd proven their worth and we'd like to let them use it?) "KDExcellent, a Fedora Distribution" is a safe middle ground. It's a much closer association than "based on Fedora". But it implies that there are many separate Fedora Distributions and this one is no more canonical than them. It also puts "Fedora Core" on a separate level from these distributions. Personally I'd like to see the "Fedora KDExcellent" form. This puts people who want to form separate groupings of packages on an equal footing name-wise with "Fedora Core" which is a good thing for the community. "Fedora Foo Linux" is a name. "Foo, a Fedora Distribution" is a name and a description. It's much easier for a distribution to drop a description than to change a name if they are weighing the costs of being lazy and rush packaging their own versions of packages rather than getting them into Fedora Extras or working to maintain/fix the Fedora packages for everyone. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gerold at lugd.org Thu Apr 20 21:52:05 2006 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:52:05 +0200 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145568452.3178.58.camel@localhost> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> <2bb88f20604201331w6411a667wd2698d2c842f40ec@mail.gmail.com> <1145568452.3178.58.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1145569925.2441.11.camel@NB-FedoraCore.homenet.local> Am Donnerstag, den 20.04.2006, 14:27 -0700 schrieb Toshio Kuratomi: ... > Personally I'd like to see the "Fedora KDExcellent" form. This puts ... > -Toshio +1 But please keep also in mind that we as Fedora may not to alienate the other Trademarks e.g. "KDExcellent" or Registered Brands ... I suppose that it can be dangerous for us if we declare that somebody can use the Trademark of Fedora mixed with another Trademark or a Projectname ... -- Regards Gerold Kassube Fedora Ambassador Deutschland / Germany Email: GeroldKa at fedoraproject.org 1024D/F33128B9 4ABC A903 F1F4 D9CC C422 AACA EDF1 DF42 F331 28B9 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 22:58:39 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:58:39 +0200 Subject: IRC French Presentation In-Reply-To: <2bb88f20604190550x2821798di31a8d48caa1954a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604190506k4901255cs6f44f8053fe575c4@mail.gmail.com> <2bb88f20604190550x2821798di31a8d48caa1954a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604201558v60261dd6s12d85099d1157e75@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, ThomasCanniot wrote the announcement (in french) for our IRC Presentation see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/fr_FR/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France First as you can see the link has changed. as Andre and Rahul suggested we created vFUDCon. vFUDCon is a FUDCon that is virtual, of course, but will be accesible with multimedia medium only. Ill talk more about it in the up coming days. Suggestions are welcome. Till now: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France ChitleshGoorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Apr 20 23:03:14 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems ... In-Reply-To: <1145569925.2441.11.camel@NB-FedoraCore.homenet.local> Message-ID: <20060420230314.17946.qmail@web34101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've seen a lot of suggestions here. But let's step back and look at the root problems. They are ... 1. The Fedora trademark, and the legal issues under what context people use it, especially in the context of both ... 2. The 100% Redistributable and "Free" guarantee that Red Hat(R), now Fedora(TM), releases have always guaranteed to consumers 3. The past success and infamy due to packaging non-redistributable or non-legally free packages, with software that actually can legally be packaged with non-redistribuable/non-free (not looking at the branding/trademark aspects). With that said, let me tell you my views ... A. Anaconda + Fedora Core/Extras Fedora Core + Fedora Extras are still Fedora Project redistributions. Not only should stock logos be allowed, but we should encourage neither changes or rebranding for these CDs -- except for maybe "Unofficial." That includes Live CDs, as long as 100% of the software they contain are _unmodified_ from Core + Extras, and only boot-time changes/scripts are made. B. Anaconda + Fedora Core/Extras + 100% Redistributable Red Hat(R) Linux gained mass popularity as a base for other distributions because of its 100% Redistributable focus. We should still acknowledge redistributions with 100% redistributable components (and no legal binds), but just accomodate the legal changes required. An alternative logo and disclaimer accomplishes this. C. Anaconda + Fedora Core/Extras + Non-Redistributable On the flip side, Red Hat(R) Linux gained great infamy (and lots of corresponding rhetoric from the community, like from Cheapbytes) because of many vendors *COUGH*Cobalt*COUGH*Sun*COUGH* who wrongly took the goodwill of Red Hat(R) and made it a serious trademark/public domain issue. Let's make no mistake, these distributions will still happen with Fedora -- especially if "B" becomes popular (as it seems it is). Omitting the trademark issues, the software licenses on the packages do legally allow them to be bundled with non-GPL/100% redistributable software. So we _need_ to _deal_ with the trademark issue once and for all. With all that said, here's what I suggest ... i) The Anaconda tools should be modified to include 3 additional logo sets as standard: A. Custom Fedora(TM) B. Unofficial Fedora(TM) Third Party C. No-name Redistribution Let's face it, many people don't like to take the time to customize Anaconda. People are going to abuse the trademark. We need to make it as easy as a script to change the logos from "Fedora(TM)" to something else. If we do offer that, people _will_ do it. If we don't, we'll run into the same trademark hell Red Hat did, because 99% of repackagers aren't going to take the time to rebrand the installer. If you give people the tools to "be legal," they will use them. ii) Standard legal disclaimers Correspondingly to i), we need to come up with standard legal disclaimers for A, B and C. These are just templates that are the defaults, just like the logos and branding. Most importantly, if you _ignore_ "C," we'll just get more people brand "C" in the same way as "A"/"B". We _need_ to address _all_3_. iii) "Click-through" Anaconda tools I think the way to solve this is in the Anaconda tools themselves. When you run any Anaconda tools, you have to create an _explicit_ configuration file that states whether it's A, B or C. If it doesn't exist, Anaconda spits out a complaint to create one, or run a script that creates the settings file for them (prompts them for a few questions). IANAL, but from a legal perspective, if you give someone a tool that notifies them with a click through or they have to run an explicit command, and they _still_ use the trademark _incorrectly_ -- I'd say you've got them by the balls. They have no excuse or ignorance argument. But IANAL. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:13:00 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:13:00 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145578380.2559.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 14:29 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:19 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > >> > >> but its still derived from fedora isnt it? distcc is hanging idle in > >> bugzilla for ages :) > >> someone finish the review. > >> > > > > No, because (as Max forgot to mention) the Based on Fedora must be based > > on the Binary packages, not rebuilds of the source packages. No > > published Binary, can't use it. > > That's a good point. People have to use the same binaries, signed by > Fedora/Red Hat if they want to be "official". We can't trust people to > not mess them up or do weird stuff if they rebuild from source. Not to mention which, imagine the chaos that would ensue in the community support channels when the binaries don't match what's in the Fedora repositories. What if someone decides to rebuild fedora-release and point it to non-official repositories so updates are out of sync with Fedora? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:14:37 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:14:37 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145558350.19720.8.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145557378.19720.4.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145558350.19720.8.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145578477.2559.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 14:39 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 20:30 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > > id have to remove all art and branding etc... ok... > > > > but then again calling it "derived of fedora" is legal? i am still > > just curious... sorry for keeping on asking the same question. is only > > "fork of fedora" legal then? > > IANAL, but as long as it isn't in the name of the product, or the logo > of the product, I think in the documentation you can reference that it > was built from or based on Fedora. I think Mark Webbink has some very different ideas about that from the standpoint of trademark dilution. We may need to get that input (which is forthcoming AFAIK) in order to make some true headway on this issue. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:39:29 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:39:29 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145569925.2441.11.camel@NB-FedoraCore.homenet.local> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> <2bb88f20604201331w6411a667wd2698d2c842f40ec@mail.gmail.com> <1145568452.3178.58.camel@localhost> <1145569925.2441.11.camel@NB-FedoraCore.homenet.local> Message-ID: <556f970a0604201739va9390f5ra38eead949e22f0d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/20/06, Gerold Kassube wrote: > > > I suppose that it can be dangerous for us if we declare that somebody > can use the Trademark of Fedora mixed with another Trademark or a > Projectname ... I think we can say "It's okay with us*" *As it pertains to Fedora marks, all other registered trademarks you are adding to this are between you and those other guys, and we reserve the right to come smack you if you change your name to GNU/Fedora Sony Kiddie-Porn Nike Teen Server -- IIS Viagara SEX SEX Edition. Hmmm. I wonder how many spam filters just bounced me. Anyway, I like the idea of a "based on Fedora" with it's own logo, and a set of reasonable rules that users can self-govern by. Allowing them only to mix a distro from only FC+FE repos would enable touchless access to the mark (ie. we don't have any 3rd party packages to review, and we also don't have to judge at what point to little % of their distro is still Fedora to call it Fedora based). I'd vote that anyone wanting to call themselves Fedora Foo would be looked at a bit more, since there will be an implicit official affiliation in a user's mind. I could see folks creating things like appliances, or single app servers and wanting to call them Fedora CRM, Fedora Classroom, Fedora Video Server so it'd be worth considering Fedora Foo uses, but might have to be manually reviewed, IMHO. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Apr 21 04:51:20 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:51:20 -0400 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145564850.19720.14.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <604aa7910604201040w169211e0va6c8c64d766f11ea@mail.gmail.com> <1145554964.19720.1.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <604aa7910604201051o4a796dffu40d7d9f946ee2267@mail.gmail.com> <1145556542.19720.2.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060420202156.GA26037@jadzia.bu.edu> <1145564850.19720.14.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060421045120.GA9490@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Apr 20, 2006 at 04:27:30PM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > I used the wrong term. If we're going to allow the logo to be used on > anything that is 'BUILT' from Fedora binary packages (Core+Extras), then > as soon as you add anything to that outside of existing Core+Extras > packages then it can't use the logo. That's what I was trying to drive. Ah, okay. And that makes perfect sense. :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 21 10:07:04 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:07:04 +0200 Subject: OpenSuse vs Fedora Legacy versions Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604210307y7b3d9a38j15d77ef167473804@mail.gmail.com> From http://en.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Fedora_basically_forces_you_to_update_to_the_newest_version_to_stay_current.2C_even_for_security_updates._How_does_openSUSE_handle_this.3F Fedora basically forces you to update to the newest version to stay current, even for security updates. How does openSUSE handle this? This is also the case for all development versions (alpha/beta) of SUSE Linux, but not for the released versions. ===== Concerning security updates of Legacy versions of Fedora, Fedora Legacy isn't in charge of this ? if yes, we should ask OpenSuse to formulate their phrase better. Chitlesh -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 21 10:38:31 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:38:31 -0400 Subject: OpenSuse vs Fedora Legacy versions In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604210307y7b3d9a38j15d77ef167473804@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604210307y7b3d9a38j15d77ef167473804@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145615911.2811.10.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 12:07 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > Concerning security updates of Legacy versions of Fedora, Fedora > Legacy isn't in charge of this ? > if yes, we should ask OpenSuse to formulate their phrase better. Why do other distros, and their advocates, feel the need to (often inaccurately) answer questions for _other_ distros? I'm _still_ fighting the "epoch-based release" non-sense. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 21 15:50:06 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems (revisited/simplified) Message-ID: <20060421155006.23399.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I know it hasn't even been a day, but no one commented on my post. I tend to be "long winded" so I'll cut my own message down in the hope people will read it. I basically wanted to point out that we should be addressing the real _legal_ issues at the Anaconda tools themselves. If you make it easy for people to change the logos with standard disclaimers right in the installer, people _will_ do it. Just a suggestion ... "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > ... > A. Custom Fedora(TM) ... (FC+FE) > B. Unofficial Fedora(TM) Third Party ... (FC+FE+100%RedistRPMs) > C. No-name Redistribution ... (any other RPMS, with FC+FE) > ... > iii) "Click-through" Anaconda tools > I think the way to solve this is in the Anaconda tools themselves. > When you run any Anaconda tools, you have to create an _explicit_ > configuration file that states whether it's A, B or C. If it > doesn't exist, Anaconda spits out a complaint to create one, or > run a script that creates the settings file for them (prompts them > for a few questions). > IANAL, but from a legal perspective, if you give someone a tool > that notifies them with a click through or they have to run an > explicit command, and they _still_ use the trademark _incorrectly_ > -- I'd say you've got them by the balls. They have no excuse or > ignorance argument. But IANAL. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Apr 21 15:58:53 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:58:53 -0500 Subject: OpenSuse vs Fedora Legacy versions In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604210307y7b3d9a38j15d77ef167473804@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604210307y7b3d9a38j15d77ef167473804@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604211058.55966.nman64@n-man.com> On Friday 21 April 2006 05:07, "Chitlesh GOORAH" wrote: > From > http://en.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Fedora_basically_forces_y >ou_to_update_to_the_newest_version_to_stay_current.2C_even_for_security_upda >tes._How_does_openSUSE_handle_this.3F > > Fedora basically forces you to update to the newest version to stay > current, even for security updates. How does openSUSE handle this? > > This is also the case for all development versions (alpha/beta) of > SUSE Linux, but not for the released versions. > > ===== > > Concerning security updates of Legacy versions of Fedora, Fedora > Legacy isn't in charge of this ? > > if yes, we should ask OpenSuse to formulate their phrase better. > Please contact the author and ask them to update their materials or remove the reference to Fedora altogether. You can suggest that they reference the Fedora Legacy project if they wish to provide the most accurate information possible. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Fri Apr 21 16:16:04 2006 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:16:04 -0700 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems (revisited/simplified) In-Reply-To: <20060421155006.23399.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060421155006.23399.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1145636164.3107.29.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 08:50 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I basically wanted to point out that we should be addressing the real > _legal_ issues at the Anaconda tools themselves. If you make it easy > for people to change the logos with standard disclaimers right in the > installer, people _will_ do it. > I agree that obvious, easy tools will cause people to "do the right thing" most of the time. Are we still discussing the policy that those tools need to fulfill, though? I have one new question: How will RawHide/FE-devel packages fit into this scheme? RawHide is a baby eater so a redistribution of Fedora that uses these packages could well be less stable than usual. OTOH, sometimes fixes for problems only appear in RawHide or take quite some time to be pushed back to the previous Core release. So the, "Fedora Bleeding GNOME Linux", "Fedora AIGLX Linux", or "Fedora r300 LiveCD Linux" would pretty much have to pull from RawHide. (Note that only one of my three examples would be targetted at RawHide long term. The others would be folded back into mainline in FC+1 or FC+2. I think a lot of RawHide targetted redistributions would be this way; short-term RawHide, long-term either the need goes away or they retarget against a Fedora Core branch after the newer packages go in.) Another issue is that RawHide binary packages will disappear after a few new pushes so the versions of packages these distributions are based on won't be available from official Fedora Repositories anymore. The same thing could potentially happen with Fedora Updates, though, which I am assuming would be included in the "FC + FE" package set. I started this post thinking RawHide should be excluded but now I'm more divided.... -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 16:36:12 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:36:12 -0400 Subject: OpenSuse vs Fedora Legacy versions In-Reply-To: <200604211058.55966.nman64@n-man.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604210307y7b3d9a38j15d77ef167473804@mail.gmail.com> <200604211058.55966.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910604210936v52d2d8f8lda7b4f5d694266c3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/21/06, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Please contact the author and ask them to update their materials or remove the > reference to Fedora altogether. You can suggest that they reference the > Fedora Legacy project if they wish to provide the most accurate information > possible. Good luck with getting Suse to agree refraining from making direct comparisons to Fedora. I think the fact that they felt a need to draw a direct comparison in their high level documentation speaks volumes as to the intrinsic worth of Fedora as a project. Obviously the people who wrote that document feel that opensuse can only be justified in terms of Fedora specifically. I personally view that document as a shining example of how not to advertise your open project and why all Fedora project communication should be strictly focused on communcating Fedora without making a comparison to any other unrelated project choice. We must accept the fact that we can not make an authoriative statement as to the relative worth of Fedora compared to any other similiar projects which are not closely aligned to the fedora development process because we are not experts in the structuring or the development roadmap for those other projects. Anytime a comparative statement is made which is meant to show Fedora is relatively more valuable than what another project is currently doing.. you run the risk of that comparative statement becoming out of date as the development process for Fedora and other projects evolve. Fact checking to make sure we are communicating the state-of-the-art of Fedora development is a big enough job. Trying to keep up with Suse's or Ubuntu's or Gentoo's or whatever else development specifics as well so we can make factually correct and unbiased comparative statements is impossible to do. -jef"Sadly I think someone invovled with opensuse communication was suckered into believing that typical 'technical journalism' styled 'reviews' is the best way to inform people about their project"spaleta From cnegus at rucls.net Fri Apr 21 17:29:07 2006 From: cnegus at rucls.net (Chris Negus) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:29:07 -0500 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems (revisited/simplified) In-Reply-To: <20060421155006.23399.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060421155006.23399.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1145640547.3109.177.camel@einstein> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 08:50 -0700, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I basically wanted to point out that we should be addressing the real > _legal_ issues at the Anaconda tools themselves. If you make it easy > for people to change the logos with standard disclaimers right in the > installer, people _will_ do it. You and others have raised some really good technical issues. I'd like to add my $.02 on how I'd like to see Fedora branding, with an eye toward a more solid view of what Fedora is: * Fedora Core: Only ISOs from a Fedora repository (with matching sha1sum) can use the Fedora name, official logo and label on redistributed media. Updates, extra packages, etc. can go on separate media. * Built from Fedora: Anyone building a custom distro from Fedora (anaconda plus binaries) can add some official tag line like "Built from Fedora" or "Fedora Inside" and a different Fedora-like logo on the packaging. No use of the Fedora name should be allowed in a new distro/live CD name. No official blessing. Fedora Project should reserve the right to tell someone to stop using the tag-line/2nd logo if they are doing something evil. I don't think anyone should be required to remove Fedora logos from inside their new distro/live CD. Apache, OpenOffice.org, GNOME and other projects leave their logos in when their software is used in different distros. Why not Fedora? It's advertising for the project, without official blessing (or responsibility). Just don't let others package their product as "the" Fedora Core. (I apologize if my tone sounds too definitive above. I'm actually quite flexible in the details. But I want to illustrate the kind of firm language I'd like to see come out of the Fedora Project on this issue.) Bottom line on my opinion :) 1) Make it easy to redistribute and mark the real Fedora Core as official. 2) Make it easy to spin your own distro, with a nod to Fedora, but no official blessing or responsibility from Fedora. -- Chris Negus From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 21 17:32:08 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems (revisited/simplified) In-Reply-To: <1145636164.3107.29.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20060421173208.22623.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > I agree that obvious, easy tools will cause people to "do the right > thing" most of the time. Yes. We need to put forth the effort to come up with extra logo sets and disclaimer/text changes, and make that a simple switch in Anaconda. Again, you force people to be unable to run any Anaconda tools until they set a config setting. > Are we still discussing the policy that those tools need to > fulfill, though? Yes. I just wanted to point out that this is a directly related detail. > I have one new question: > How will RawHide/FE-devel packages fit into this scheme? It's not FC+FE, so it's not Fedora(TM). Again, I suggested "Unofficial Fedora(TM) Third Party" as long as it is still 100% Redistributable. I'm sure someone could come up with a better name. My argument was to put something into a standard logo/disclaimer set for the Anaconda Tools -- different than the official Fedora releases. > RawHide is a baby eater so a redistribution of Fedora that uses > these packages could well be less stable than usual. As anything that is not stock, binary equivalent or subset of FC+FE. > OTOH, sometimes fixes for problems only appear in RawHide or take > quite some time to be pushed back to the previous Core release. > So the, "Fedora Bleeding GNOME Linux", "Fedora AIGLX Linux", or > "Fedora r300 LiveCD Linux" would pretty much have to pull from > RawHide. (Note that only one of my three examples would be > targetted at RawHide long term. The others would be folded back > into mainline in FC+1 or FC+2. I think a lot of RawHide targetted > redistributions would be this way; short-term RawHide, long-term > either the need goes away or they retarget against a Fedora Core > branch after the newer packages go in.) Again, come up with an umbrella for them to all fall under, as long as they are 100% redistributable with no legal issues. > Another issue is that RawHide binary packages will disappear after > a few new pushes so the versions of packages these distributions are > based on won't be available from official Fedora Repositories > anymore. The same thing could potentially happen with Fedora > Updates, though, which I am assuming would be included in the > "FC + FE" package set. Again, there are no guarantees with "Unofficial Fedora(TM) Third Party" or whatever we call it. > I started this post thinking RawHide should be excluded but now I'm > more divided.... I think anything that is 100% Redistributable with no legal issues (e.g., not Livna.ORG, etc...) is a candidate for this labeling. We want to promote people to use Fedora(TM) as a solid base, as long as they are true to the 100% redistributable and litigation-free of it. It's just not Fedora(TM), but Unofficial Fedora(TM) Third Party. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 17:44:27 2006 From: andre.nogueira.fedora at gmail.com (Andre Nogueira) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:44:27 +0100 Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems (revisited/simplified) In-Reply-To: <1145640547.3109.177.camel@einstein> References: <20060421155006.23399.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1145640547.3109.177.camel@einstein> Message-ID: <2bb88f20604211044m1a57c66ay7e1a236746cf1e5@mail.gmail.com> > I don't think anyone should be required to remove Fedora logos from > inside their new distro/live CD. Apache, OpenOffice.org, GNOME and > other projects leave their logos in when their software is used in > different distros. Why not Fedora? It's advertising for the project, > without official blessing (or responsibility). Just don't let others > package their product as "the" Fedora Core. The main difference is that those are programs which are intended to be distributed, while Fedora is a complete operating system - which includes those applications people use. While OpenOffice is OpenOffice regardless of whether you're using Fedora, Ubuntu or Windows, the same doesn't happen with Fedora. The main problem I see with allowing the Fedora logos and images to be used in Fedora-Based distros is that most people (and here I'm talking about the average Joe who barely knows how to turn on his computer) will probably think that Fedora and Fedora-Based distros are the same. It is debatable whether this is good or not - but I don't think it is. If one particular distro has problems (is for some reason unstable, etc) Fedora suffers too, because to that user they are the same thing. Saying simply "Based on Fedora" and not having Fedora logos clearly shows that the distro is NOT Fedora. Or perhaps I'm seeing it wrong?... Thanks, Andre From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 21 17:49:44 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OpenSuse vs Fedora Legacy versions In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604210936v52d2d8f8lda7b4f5d694266c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060421174944.65047.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Good luck with getting Suse to agree refraining from making direct > comparisons to Fedora. I think the fact that they felt a need to > draw a direct comparison in their high level documentation speaks > volumes as to the intrinsic worth of Fedora as a project. Obviously > the people who wrote that document feel that opensuse can only be > justified in terms of Fedora specifically. There are a neverending number of people who have _never_ used Fedora (or didn't do more than try to install it once or twice) who have a total opinion on it. But most of them were complaining about Red Hat(R) Linux prior anyway -- almost ironically about all the stuff Fedora(TM) Core does have today. > I personally view that document as a shining example of how not to > advertise your open project and why all Fedora project > communication should be strictly focused on communcating Fedora > without making a comparison to any other unrelated project choice. Agreed. We shouldn't worry about other distros. Even though I've been a Debian maintainer and share publication credits with the founder of Gentoo, I _refrain_ from making comparisons. It makes it easier to ask others to do the same. We should focus on how we can proliferate Fedora -- both as its own distro, as well as a base for others much like Red Hat(R) Linux before it (without the legal trap that caused Red Hat a lot of legal and PR grief). > We must accept the fact that we can not make an authoriative > statement as to the relative worth of Fedora compared to any > other similiar projects which are not closely aligned to the > fedora development process because we are not experts in the > structuring or the development roadmap for those other > projects. Anytime a comparative statement is made which is > meant to show Fedora is relatively more valuable than what > another project is currently doing.. you run the risk of that > comparative statement becoming out of date as the development > process for Fedora and other projects evolve. Right on point! That's currently the problem plaguing most assumptions on Fedora. We don't want to do the same. We should probably add a _single_ FAQ entry on ... Q: How does Fedora compare to X ... Distro X says Fedora does [not] do ... Etc... A: The community is attempting to solve many problems in many ways. While some people and projects may see differences, we see a commonality of problems that we are all trying to solve, collectively. Although we may have different names, trademarks, organizations and other approaches, we all do learn from each other. Fedora could not exist if it was not for the efforts of other projects, a commonality many distributions share in many cases. And like any community, Fedora survives on the efforts of its volunteer. Many of these volunteers not just contributing to only Fedora, but other distributions as well. In a nutshell: We ask people in the Linux community not drag the brand name and related marketing rhetoric from the commercial software world over into the community developed software world. There is already a plethora of commercial companies that resell and rebrand the exact same software as different names and compete against each other merely because they have a different label on the box. > Fact checking to make sure we are communicating the > state-of-the-art of Fedora development is a big enough job. > Trying to keep up with Suse's or Ubuntu's or Gentoo's or > whatever else development specifics as well so we can make > factually correct and unbiased comparative statements is > impossible to do. Maybe add one more Q/A for the FAQ that adds that exact response too. maybe the question could be ... Q: But you're dodging the question, how does Fedora compare to X ... ? A: (as you stated) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 21 18:01:17 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora derivatives branding discussion -- the root problems (revisited/simplified) In-Reply-To: <2bb88f20604211044m1a57c66ay7e1a236746cf1e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060421180117.53666.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Andre Nogueira wrote: > The main problem I see with allowing the Fedora logos and images to > be used in Fedora-Based distros is that most people (and here I'm > talking about the average Joe who barely knows how to turn on his > computer) will probably think that Fedora and Fedora-Based distros > are the same. It's more than that. It's a legal issue with regards to trademark enforcement. No distribution was more widely used (and misused) than Red Hat(R) Linux. Virtually every other distro out there, sans maybe Debian, has _never_ run into the same level of proliferation as Red Hat(R) Linux did. Even Novell is either going to have to lay down some anal rules on "SuSE(R)" or find the trademark could become public domain (or maybe they don't care?). This is the primo #1 reason why Fedora(TM) was created by Red Hat(R) in the first place. No matter how they clarified the usage for Cheapbytes and others, their goodwill got raped by Cobalt/Sun and then they got rhetoric from Cheapbytes and others. No good dead goes unpunished. We need to not only give an avenue for B) those 100% redistributable derivatives, but those inevitable (and unavoiable) C) non-100% redistributable derivatives. You do that technically with the Anaconda tools themselves -- accomodating B and C. And you do it legally by differentiating between B & C as well. Again, I suggest ... B) Unofficial Fedora(TM) Third Party [Distribution] C) No-name [Distribution] Anything that is a direct FC+FE equivalent or subset can be called "Fedora(TM)," although having Anaconda identify it as a "Custom" build might be nice to let people know it's not the Official. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- I'm a Democrat. No wait, I'm a Republican. Hmm, it seems I'm just whatever someone disagrees with. From alotsum at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 21:51:25 2006 From: alotsum at gmail.com (Alo Tsum) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:51:25 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas Message-ID: I posted this else where but it was suggested I post this to the list serve so here goes Fedora Core 5 is a truly amazing OS and one I think has the potential to really do great things. Looking forward to what the Fedora Project has the potential to do, especially with its new focus I decided to give some suggestions as to what could possibly be done starting with Fedora 6 and onward. Some of my suggestions are definitely based on the OS itself but others are also concerning the general focus and outlook of the Fedora Project itself. I hope my suggestion are not regarded as offensive in anyway and they are only meant to highlight the greatness of Fedora as well as to reflect my strong desire to see this project take off and propel the Linux OS to new heights. First suggestions has to do with the software side of things. We users need a competent software installer which is graphical based. One that functions much the same way that the windows installer works. This installer should track dependencies naturally and place icons on the desktop or give the option to have icons for the software just installed to be placed on the desktop of the user as well as in the applications menu. Also when watching the Boston Linux conference the suggestion was made to offer a hard disc manager much like windows offers for formating and receiving hard drivers etc after installation. My second set of suggestions will deal with the over all focus and structure of the fedora project. I was listening to a pod cast interview with the head of the fedora project where in, the topic came up of some how generating revenue to put back into the project and make it more self sufficient. So I have a few suggestions which I think the Redhat company itself should take note of. Firstly Redhat while promoting Linux among enthusiast is also in the business of making money. On that front I believe that they should not only attempt to evangelize Linux in the government, education, and corporate sectors; they should also attempt to get Linux in each and every home. The reason being is if people are starting to use Linux in their homes and they are comfortable with it, employers will be more likely and willing to deploy a operating system which is different in many ways to windows on the interactive level. Reason being is when people have to stop to learn new technology this cuts down on productivity and as a person who works for a IT department in a major university I can also vouch for the fact a IT team will not be willing to suggest an infrastructure restructuring when they know, supporting users on something foreign to them is going to increase their workload 10 fold. So bottom line, more users both advanced, intermediate and beginners need to be converted to the Linux faithful but now the question becomes how? The Fedora project is the perfect tool for this and here is how. The fedora team should focus SOLELY on making the operating system run as smoothly and as fast as possible, interacting with a HUGE number of hardware configurations. Installation needs to be as smooth as silk and upgrading needs to be fail proof from version to version. Previously installed drives with personal user data needs to be able to be retained without fail from upgrade to upgrade if the user isn't doing a clean install. Now I would like to move on to "partnerships" Fedora project should look into making "partners" or some other creative term to define other Linux projects and organizations. In this partnership Fedora will tightly enforce standards which will ensure that any software created to run on fedora is following say the OIN and the GPL standards to the letter to ensure an user friendly and secure/stable operating system that runs smoothly. Many people in the Linux community may grumble about this suggestion however life is about progression and when things do not change and evolve and progress to new levels then they are doomed to become extinct (think dinosaurs here) or at the very least remain niche applications. If Fedora project implements such a model, they do not have to worry about making certain software for the OS which would take far to much time and man power to create. Prime example would be the hard disk manager or even the software installer. This sort of work could be left to groups who's soul purpose is to make such software and by following strict guidelines they would become Fedora project "partners" and in turn they would be promised that their software will be included in the fedora core release. Also by following strict guidelines this software could be implemented in other Linux distributions which are also following said guidelines. This would take the pressure off of Fedora and they can then focus on whats important which is making their OS run like silk. Again let me stress this approach is keeping in mind that projects such as Fedora and other Linux distributions desire to penetrate more into the home desktop market, which then also means more users will or could eventually equate to greater adoption of the platform in other industries as a result of user awareness and user comfort with the Linux platform. I should also mention that those software development groups that do not comply could be offered as Fedora extras so the community still has choices which is really part of the appeal of Linux. Okay so with all that said how could this generate income? Well lets say Fedora project comes up with one of the first 100% standard enforced distributions which is as user friendly or even more so than MS windows. Now say a "ambassador" from Fedora can start making the rounds to Dell and other companies and attempt to get them to start offering this FREE Linux distribution on some of their PC models, which would also allow for lower prices on the retail side for them (ie Dell, Gateway etc.) as the OS is FREE and that cuts down on cost which the end user ends up incurring. But we still have not addressed revenue for the Fedora project, and this can be done by following the Redhat model of offering technical support. Fedora project could basically offer technical support certification and training to Dell staff as an example so they (the PC manufacturer) can then take over supporting the platform for their end users, which also equates to revenue for these companies in the long run because they can offer extended tech support to end users at a premium. Fedora core could charge a VERY minimal fee for this training, so say charge enough that it would generate revenue that can then be pumped back into the project and at the same time would still make it cheaper for Dell and other companies to go with Linux on some desktop offerings as opposed to having a windows only offering. The future of Linux if to be taken seriously should not be relegated to just the business, government, and education world as far as standards, reliability, and software / hardware vendor support is concerned. The brand will grow far more rapidly if consumers are adopting the standard at home and at work so basically this is a bottom up approach. This of this, more desktop users in the home also means more software sales for major companies because you will have more people buying video games and other such things which will also mean more companies willing to adopt the platform because software offering become greater. There needs to be a consorted effort on the parts of all parties involved to take Linux to that next phase of existence other wise Linux as a brand, while it may grow some what will not see its full potential. With the software being a open and free model we still have to realize with a flurry of hodge podge coding and no standards insight the end user ends up losing at least as far as the home front is concerned. Most people are forced to run duel boot Windows and Linux systems because software makers and hardware manufactures have not fully bought into the Linux model and we as a community only have ourselves to blame for that. This approach will also take some evangelizing to the software makers of such things as yum and KDE however I believe that those who do not see the need and importants of doing such things will render themselves obsolete in the long run. Just look at the Unix model, and we can see what the disasters of not doing this can incur. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 06:13:02 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:13:02 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> [ I know this is going to come off strong, my apologies in advance ... ] On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 17:51 -0400, Alo Tsum wrote: > First suggestions has to do with the software side of things. We users > need a competent software installer which is graphical based. One that > functions much the same way that the windows installer works. God *NO*! As a veteran of 13-17 years of [each] Solaris, Linux and Windows [NT] enterprise configuration management, you've got it _all_wrong_. Packages and package management systems exist for a reason. Windows is _total_hell_ when it comes to enterprise management compared Solaris and Linux. BTW, there is already a GUI installer from the former Loki Entertainment group. It is a shell script with a binary object attached that brings up a GTK+ GUI. I do _not_ recommend we move to using that approach. > This installer should track dependencies naturally And the various GUI interfaces, including Pup, do not? You're kinda losing me on "should track dependencies naturally." What you want is the Windows "oh, install it anyway" attitude. That's mutually exclusive with dependency enforcement. Again, I must be missing your point. > and place icons on the desktop Who's desktop? I think you're starting to think in Windows terms, where the Explorer shell is infiltrated on _everyone_, most users are administrators, and countless other "enterprise-hell." Unless I'm really missing something here? > or give the option to have icons for the software just installed to be > placed on the desktop of the user as well as in the applications menu. Ummm, are you familiar with all the capabilities of Fedora Core? >From what you just said, it suggests you are not. There are standards for GNOME. I can't vouche for how Fedora Core handles KDE though. > Also when watching the Boston Linux conference the suggestion was made > to offer a hard disc manager much like windows offers for formating > and receiving hard drivers etc after installation. They already exist. But it's up to the vendors to bundle them. They don't. We can't do much about that. I was also at Boston LinuxWorld, and a lot of the suggestions made were clearly made from people with more background in end-user Windows than enterprise configuration management of any OS (much less Linux). > My second set of suggestions will deal with the over all focus and > structure of the fedora project. I was listening to a pod cast > interview with the head of the fedora project where in, the topic came > up of some how generating revenue to put back into the project and > make it more self sufficient. So I have a few suggestions which I > think the Redhat company itself should take note of. Firstly Redhat > while promoting Linux among enthusiast is also in the business of > making money. That's an oversimplification, but I won't go there. > On that front I believe that they should not only attempt to > evangelize Linux in the government, education, and corporate sectors; > they should also attempt to get Linux in each and every home. Okay, now here's where I think most Linux users are naive. 90% of home users are _not_ interested in long-term customer value. They are interested in "new gadgets" and baited by "loss leaders" and are more than willing to upgrade their PC, peripherals, OS and applications every 2-3 years. I have extensively talked about this as the "Superstore Profit Model." It's the primo reason Microsoft has a stake in Best Buy, AOL in Circuit City, etc... 90% of home users put up with the fact that they buy a PC, peripherals, OS and applications that are integrated. And they put up with the fact that if they upgrade one after a few years, they might as well upgrade the other 3. "Oh, my new printer won't work with my old system, so I'll need a new one -- oh, that's right, I have to buy new software." Trying to break them of this is difficult -- when you tell them "free" they think "free Microsoft software." Literally. You're not going to reach them -- and that's 90% of the home consumer market. It's a long, involved story, and trying to sell them on Linux and dealing with hardware incompatibility (which will _not_ be solved because of the "Superstore Profit Model" when it comes to drivers, longer story), is not what they want. I think Red Hat has the _best_ idea. We got the techs from Day 1. Now we're going after the Enterprises, and that's happening. As more and more Enterprises adopt Open Source, it will come into the home out of necessity as people take work home. It won't happen overnight. But it _is_ happening. It's an utter waste of their time to jump right to the home user. I personally think an expansion of the "Fedora Ambassadors" is far more worthwhile. "Fedora Ambassadors" are who will reach the smaller users. If Red Hat wanted to allocate a little budget for that, I wouldn't argue. But I don't think Red Hat will see much return at all from what you suggest. It's not worth their time, and I don't blame them. > The reason being is if people are starting to use Linux in their homes > and they are comfortable with it, employers will be more likely and > willing to deploy a operating system which is different in many ways > to windows on the interactive level. No, you have it backwards. Windows came into the home because of business. Just like DOS, 1-2-3, WordPerfect, etc... before it. If you can show me where mass adoption of an OS in the home forced enterprises, great! But I don't see it. I only see small adoption in the consumer _until_ businesses proliferated it so all consumers adopted. > Reason being is when people have to stop to learn new technology this > cuts down on productivity and as a person who works for a IT > department in a major university I can also vouch for the fact a IT > team will not be willing to suggest an infrastructure restructuring > when they know, supporting users on something foreign to them is going > to increase their workload 10 fold. IT infrastructure and personnel != average home user Linux has the geeks, and more and more of the IT professionals. That's already happening in the enterprises _now_. I think you're talking about apples and oranges. > So bottom line, more users both advanced, intermediate and beginners > need to be converted to the Linux faithful but now the question > becomes how? It's _exactly_ how Red Hat is doing it. The geeks got Linux in the corporations. I know, I was there. Internet services in the early '90s. Engineering desktop and applications in the mid-to-late '90s. Mainstream development and even desktop adoption in the 21st century. SuSE (now Novell) and Red Hat added the traditional support behind it. That's what enterprises want. That's what Red Hat is giving them. > The Fedora project is the perfect tool for this and here is how. The > fedora team should focus SOLELY on making the operating system run as > smoothly and as fast as possible, interacting with a HUGE number of > hardware configurations. Ummm, is that not the focus? What do you think the focus is? > Installation needs to be as smooth as silk Installing Fedora Core on a bare hard drive is _easier_ than Windows. Installing Fedora Core into a dual-boot is _easier_ than Windows. Installation has _never_ been the problem. Why? Because 99.9% of home users get their OS _pre-installed_! > and upgrading needs to be fail proof from version to version. Fedora Core upgrades _easier_ than Windows too. Heck, even Service Packs or Hotfixes to Windows. I'm trying to find out what you are "comparing" to here? > Previously installed drives with personal user data needs to be able > to be retained without fail from upgrade to upgrade if the user isn't > doing a clean install. Okay, you've got to be _kidding_me_ here! _All_ UNIX systems have "home directories." It is 100% _absolute_ and _all_ programs save config files and data to it! Microsoft took *2*Decades* to finally "standardize" on "Documents and Settings" and even then, you still do _not_ have 100% (not even 90%) of applications and other programs that handle it correctly. I absolutely do _not_ understand this point at all. UNIX is very standard in this, Windows is not. Anyone who managed NT 3.1, 3.50, 3.51, 4.0 along side DOS 7.0 (95/A), 7.1 (95B/C/98/98SE) saw this clusterfsck first hand. And it's still not solved in NT 5.0 (2000), 5.1 (XP/2003), etc... either. If they change it in Vista, I'm done -- I really am. > Now I would like to move on to "partnerships" Fedora project should > look into making "partners" or some other creative term to define > other Linux projects and organizations. In this partnership Fedora > will tightly enforce standards which will ensure that any software > created to run on fedora is following say the OIN and the GPL > standards to the letter to ensure an user friendly and secure/stable > operating system that runs smoothly. Ummm, is that not the focus? What do you think the focus is? The GPL does _not_ guarantee anything. In fact, open source does _not_ guarantee anything. If anything, Red Hat's continued control over the Fedora Project and the release of Fedora Core is more about guaranteeing proper regression and integration testing of packages into a distribution than what individual open source projects can do on their own. I would _love_ for Microsoft to do the same with their own software. God knows they rely on Altiris internally do handle their own patch management resolutions and expertise. > Many people in the Linux community may grumble about this suggestion We grumble because we think you're not aware of the details you speak of. > however life is about progression and when things do not change and > evolve and progress to new levels then they are doomed to become > extinct (think dinosaurs here) or at the very least remain niche > applications. I have no idea of the point you're making. > If Fedora project implements such a model, What "model"? I honestly don't know what you're looking for. You're making assumptions that are incorrect -- about Linux, about Windows, etc... > they do not have to worry about making certain software for the OS > which would take far to much time and man power to create. Please detail this? I'm really interested in where you are coming from. > Prime example would be the hard disk manager What? I'm utterly confused. > or even the software installer. Again, unless you are advocating the Loki GTK+ installer (which I say "hell no"), I'm utterly confused. > This sort of work could be left to groups who's soul purpose is to > make such software and by following strict guidelines they would > become Fedora project "partners" and in turn they would be promised > that their software will be included in the fedora core release. That ignores regression and integration testing. Regression and integration testing is _distribution-wide_. Open source projects, on their own, doesn't address that. > Also by following strict guidelines Please define "strict guidelines." You mention OIN and GPL. What is the "standard" that says a distribution will ship with what version of GCC, GLibC? That's just 2 _core_ libraries right there that make 75% the difference between distros and releases. > this software could be implemented in other Linux distributions which > are also following said guidelines. What "strict guidelines"? Red Hat was and still is constantly criticized for "pushing the envelope" with GCC and GLibC versions in newer Red Hat(R) Linux and, now, Fedora(TM) Core. Other vendors "hold back." I don't think you are completely aware that I'm just talking about *2*base* and core libraries -- and that's just the start! Even Linux Standards Base (LSB) won't touch it! Until LSB says "this is the standard GCC-GLibC combo," there is definitely no guarantee of distro inter-compatibility. And that's just 2 core libraries to start! > This would take the pressure off of Fedora and they can then focus on > whats important which is making their OS run like silk. What makes Fedora(TM) Core trusted, like Red Hat(R) Linux before it, which is the foundation of Red Hat(R) Enterprise Linux, is the package testing, regression testing and integration testing and resulting versioning. You can't get most distros to "work together" on that, because they handle many things differently. Who's to say that the Debian model of package testing, regression testing and integration testing is better or worse than Fedoras? Who's to say Gentoo's "ports" approach that has its advantages and disadvantages against the formal "packages" approach of Debian and Fedora-based distros? > Again let me stress this approach is keeping in mind that projects > such as Fedora and other Linux distributions desire to penetrate more > into the home desktop market, Which is a _pipe_dream_ because 90% of consumers are catered to by the "Superstore Profit Model." Consumers are not interested in hearing excuses on why that brand-new $80 All-in-One Printer doesn't come with Linux drivers out-of-the-box, or they have to wait 3-6 months on drivers, when a newer, better, cheaper model will be out! > which then also means more users will or could eventually equate to > greater adoption of the platform in other industries as a result of > user awareness and user comfort with the Linux platform. > I should also mention that those software development groups that do > not comply could be offered as Fedora extras so the community still > has choices which is really part of the appeal of Linux. Comply with what? Again, to start, 50% of distro incompatibility comes down to GCC-GLibC combination. Red Hat pushes the envelope with Fedora Core. It holds back with Red Hat Enterprise Linux (based on several, previous Fedora Core releases). > Okay so with all that said how could this generate income? Well lets > say Fedora project comes up with one of the first 100% standard > enforced distributions Again, there's that "standard enforced" phrase. I honestly feel for you man, I really do. > which is as user friendly or even more so than MS windows. When 90% of American consumers can't get their brand new model, $80 on-sale All-in-One printer to work with Linux, they really aren't going to think Linux is "easier-to-use" at all. > Now say a "ambassador" from Fedora can start making the rounds to Dell > and other companies and attempt to get them to start offering this > FREE Linux distribution on some of their PC models, which would also > allow for lower prices on the retail side for them (ie Dell, Gateway > etc.) as the OS is FREE and that cuts down on cost which the end user > ends up incurring. *BUZZ* WRONG! THANK YOU FOR PLAYING! Have you ever heard the Microsoft term, "per-model licensing"? Please, _please_ read up on this. > But we still have not addressed revenue for the Fedora project, and > this can be done by following the Redhat model of offering technical > support. Are we back in the .COM boom or something? ;-> First off, apparently you missed the reason why Red Hat Enterprise Linux exists. It's not because Red Hat was "greedy," it's because SuSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) 7 _outsold_ Red Hat Linux 6.2 "E" (considred to be, retroactively, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 1) 6-to-1! Why? Because most enterprises want support bundled with the product. If this wasn't the case, Ian Murdock and Progeny would be infinitely more successful with their service offerings than Red Hat is with RHEL. And when it comes to home user tech support? Forget it! It's so "nickle'n dime" that Microsoft itself won't touch it! That's what it relies on the PC OEMs for -- to handle those home user calls! It's $135/call to call up Microsoft directly for Windows support by an home user. They aren't going to get any better value out of a formal support program for Fedora. So why would home users buy into Fedora? Only the community can offer a better deal -- and that removes at least 90% of home users. > Fedora project could basically offer technical support certification > and training to Dell staff as an example so they (the PC manufacturer) > can then take over supporting the platform for their end users, which > also equates to revenue for these companies in the long run because > they can offer extended tech support to end users at a premium. Do you know what's _involved_ with building a training/certification program? If not, get involved with LPI! > Fedora core could charge a VERY minimal fee for this training, How? I mean, building a training/certification program is _very_costly_! How are you going to fund it? Oh, that's right, Red Hat! As if they don't already have their _own_ approach. Again, do you understand the _reason_ why Red Hat Enterprise Linux exists? It's because such things cost _real_dollars_. > so say charge enough that it would generate revenue that can then be > pumped back into the project and at the same time would still make it > cheaper for Dell and other companies to go with Linux on some desktop > offerings as opposed to having a windows only offering. The project is largely funded by Red Hat (or Red Hat pays a lot of salaries), and that's unlikely to change anytime soon. Just like Sun on OpenOffice.org, etc... > The future of Linux if to be taken seriously Seriously by whom? The average home user? Or the enterprise with actual money? Learn from Microsoft. The used each market infiltration to force product adoption. >From DOS to MS Office, you infiltrate and proliferate. SuSE (now Novell) and Red Hat have done it at the enterprise. It will come, it just takes time. > should not be relegated to just the business, government, and > education world as far as standards, reliability, and software / > hardware vendor support is concerned. Again, the "Superstore Profit Model" is a _big_brick_wall_ in the face of Linux with regards to hardware vendor support. > The brand will grow far more rapidly if consumers are adopting the > standard at home and at work so basically this is a bottom up > approach. Ain't gonna happen that way, sorry. Enterprise adoption will push Linux downward. Once it reaches the point where Linux adoption is widespread enough that it affects the "Superstore Profit Model," _then_ and _only_then_ you'll see realistic consumer adoption. Unfortunately, the "Superstore Profit Model" is hard to deal with. Linux offers hardware vendors _nothing_ in increased profits. Windows version-specific drivers and loss-leaders offset by Microsoft dollars does. ;-> > This of this, more desktop users in the home also means more software > sales for major companies because you will have more people buying > video games Okay, software economics 101 ... Q: What is the _least_profitable_ software industry? A: Games Yes, you have breakaway titles. But for the most part, it's a cut-throat, razor-thin, often _in-the-red_ industry. > and other such things which will also mean more companies willing to > adopt the platform because software offering become greater. Top-down: Enterprises adopt OpenOffice.org, users are stuck with running it at home. Evolution to do corporate collaboration, etc... > There needs to be a consorted effort on the parts of all parties Who are? The projects? The distros? Who? Have you read Linux Standards Base (LSB)? Do you understand what it does _not_ address? > involved to take Linux to that next phase of existence other wise > Linux as a brand, Linux is _not_ a brand, it's a technology. Linux will _never_ be a brand. > while it may grow some what will not see its full potential. As long as people don't understand why Linux is not being adopted, this will very much be the case. > With the software being a open and free model we still have to realize > with a flurry of hodge podge coding and no standards insight Whoa! Great job! You've managed to insult the projects. No offense, but in working on _mission_critical_ defense and financial systems code for about 9 years of my career, I can tell you, with great certainty, that open source is _very_robust_ and _very_standardized_. The problem isn't coding and no standards -- that's Windows' problem! Open source projects are _far_better_! The problem is no standards on core libraries, release models, etc... Things that make up a distribution as a whole. Debian, Fedora, SuSE, etc... all differ! Even before looking at Gentoo. And that's _unlikely_ to change! Because Debian, Fedora and SuSE _disagree_ on those details. Heck, Ian Murdock and Debian-Progeny have an entirely different philosophy than Michael Tiemann and Fedora-RHEL. _Both_ models have merit. I actually believe more in Murdock's "configuration management as a process" than Tiemann's "subscription/support as a product," but as a professional, Red Hat has the mindshare because of what enterprises assume from Microsoft, Sun, etc... before them. I think you're not looking at the entire picture -- and down to those actual, real technical and enterprise details. And that's before we look back at the home user and the "Superstore" issue. > the end user ends up losing at least as far as the home front is > concerned. Why? Yes, I agree the home user is bombarded by software written largely by incompetent, oursourced or H1B Visa Indian, Irish and Israeli programmers who have had virtually _little_ (if any) exposure to any formal software development or engineering processes, let alone don't care about the software they write like the passion of open source. But for the average home user, he/she doesn't care about security. He/she only cares why their brand new model, $80 All-in-One printer doesn't work. And if a new PC and software comes out, they want to run all those latest things on it -- that old PC can be Linux, if they get time. > Most people are forced to run duel boot Windows and Linux systems > because software makers and hardware manufactures have not fully > bought into the Linux model and we as a community only have ourselves > to blame for that. No, not at all. The idea of open specifications and community-developed, perpetual software drivers for hardware is _mutually_exclusive_ with the "Superstore Profit Model" of releasing hardware for a limited time, enforced by lack of drivers for the next OS version, let alone the hardware itself is largely software-based -- licensed from a 3rd party, so it cannot be released open source. That's 90% of the issue with hardware right there! At least for home users! The users who buy cheap hardware at the Superstore, and not quality hardware that enterprises use for servers and workstations. 90% of users are more than willing to buy a new PC, peripherals, OS and applications every 2-3 years. If they replace one, and it's incompatible with any of the other 3, they just assume they have to upgrade all 4! They see the pricetag and the loss-leader, and in 2-3 years, it's "not new and fun anymore" so they don't care about it not being usable. Welcome to the Superstore Profit Model! Welcome to the whole reason Microsoft controls Best Buy! > This approach will also take some evangelizing to the software makers > of such things as yum and KDE however I believe that those who do not > see the need and importants of doing such things will render > themselves obsolete in the long run. Huh? Paying customers are supreme. What can Linux offer hardware and software vendors over the "Superstore Profit Model"? _Nothing_ but grief. > Just look at the Unix model, and we can see what the disasters of not > doing this can incur. What was the "disaster" of the UNIX model? Licensing was about the only thing tangible. Microsoft gained control of the PC distribution channel and went from virtually _no_ Office marketshare to _everything_ in 2 years. Microsoft has since gained significant marketshare in the retail channel, and that killed Apple until Microsoft gave them a cash influx. The main thing saving Apple on the retail shelf now is the iPod. That's the "disaster" that keeps SuSE (now Novell) and Red Hat away. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 06:18:35 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:18:35 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- "6 Things to Know About Linux" In-Reply-To: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145686716.3590.79.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Alo Tsum wrote: > ... I probably should have just posted this ... "6 Things to Know About Linux" http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/10/6-things-to-know-about-linux.html (apologies in advance for my grammar, or lack thereof) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 06:47:38 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:47:38 -0400 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... Message-ID: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> I've commented enough here on different topics, so it's time for me to summarize and shut-up. I'm sure many people are probably saying to themselves, "who the fsck does this guy think he is?" and that's fine. I'll let my final summary stand (or fall) on its own, as I don't believe in throwing around credentials or resumes. As I always say, if you don't agree or believe in something I say, assume I pulled it out of my rectum. I'm just an "outsider" after all. ;-> With that said, here goes ... 1. Glad Red Hat is maintaining control of Fedora development I wish they would have just done this from Day 1. Fedora(TM) was needed because of the trademark, but I can't fault Red Hat for their continued attempt at goodwill over the past 3 years to "find the right fit." But the separate trademark and more formalized community committee (over what didn't really exist in the Red Hat(R) Linux days) is really all they needed. But I'm glad it's finally set as I wanted it (as most other, previous Red Hat(R) Linux who stayed with Fedora Core and love it even more did too). 2. Anaconda/YUM Tools: Keys to preventing future trademark abuse Fedora is still very popular, and that's going to mean a lot of projects are still going to be based on it. Yes, some have gone to CentOS (the RHEL rebuild), but Fedora's Anaconda-YUM and base approach, tools and packages are still at the heart of many projects. We need to look past just giving the Anaconda tools we do today to allow custom distribution roll-outs in the assumption that major changes will change the logos and branding. We need to not only make some alternative logo sets and a corresponding file setting/switch, but we need to enforce it by having Anaconda spit out the requirements. Heck, it probably wouldn't hurt to have the Anaconda-YUM installer detect packages not signed with the included keys and put up another set of logos/disclaimers dynamically. That would be ideal. 3. Fedora Ambassadors is key to proliferation and consumer adoption If Red Hat and its Fedora Steering Committee should put any focus on any marketing aspect, it's Fedora Ambassadors. They are your gateway to the Linux User Groups, which is where most _users_ of Linux -- not just installers, not just "I'll try it out" -- but _users_ of Linux are born. You also get free marketing via helpful individuals who know the distro, and a future track to Red Hat services as a result. [ SIDE NOTE: I have suggested that the Linux Professional Institute (LPI) consider a similar model for their Alumni program, which has little more than a mailing list. In fact, Red Hat could learn to leverage some of its advocates and certification/training Alumni better too. E.g., after plunking down $749 for the RH302 exam-only, when I passed, I didn't even get a printed Certification sent to me -- but only received a PDF file and had to print it myself! I humored my fellow Novell colleague Ross Brunson with that one -- even though I regularly argue FC/RHEL over SuSE/Novell in our other sessions. ] -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 06:59:05 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 01:59:05 -0500 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4449D439.6020703@adelphia.net> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >>Many people in the Linux community may grumble about this suggestion >> >> > >We grumble because we think you're not aware of the details you speak >of. > > >>Prime example would be the hard disk manager >> >> > >What? I'm utterly confused. > > > >>or even the software installer. >> >> > >Again, unless you are advocating the Loki GTK+ installer (which I say >"hell no"), I'm utterly confused. > > > This is where I stopped reading, and forgive me for not finishing but it is clear to see this is all idealogy, not anything that has been proven. I agree with Brian on this issue, so much is so wrong and everything needs to be so changed he can't evan name a single application he is talking about. Have a nice day. J. Hartline From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 07:06:39 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:06:39 -0500 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4449D5FF.4030808@adelphia.net> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >In fact, Red Hat could learn to >leverage some of its advocates and certification/training Alumni better >too. E.g., after plunking down $749 for the RH302 exam-only, when I >passed, I didn't even get a printed Certification sent to me -- but only >received a PDF file and had to print it myself! I humored my fellow >Novell colleague Ross Brunson with that one -- even though I regularly >argue FC/RHEL over SuSE/Novell in our other sessions. ] > > Haha.. Did he tell you Redhat, Inc. wasn't a printing mill? J. Hartline From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 07:16:16 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:46:16 +0530 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> OK, I agree with Brian J Smith for 99% of everything he wrote. My Contradictions are inline though. If I haven't quoted it, assume bjs++ PS: It appears bjs misunderstood a lot of this. When Alo Tsum mentions standards, he means 'Everything you can install must be 100% open source'. On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 02:13 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 17:51 -0400, Alo Tsum wrote: > > The reason being is if people are starting to use Linux in their homes > > and they are comfortable with it, employers will be more likely and > > willing to deploy a operating system which is different in many ways > > to windows on the interactive level. > > No, you have it backwards. Windows came into the home because of > business. Just like DOS, 1-2-3, WordPerfect, etc... before it. Actually, MacOS is really popular now, cause apple went around giving it at huge discounts (or maybe even free) to a large pile of schools. I agree here, reach the casual users first, then, when the casual users grow into hardcore users, they bring their preference of OS with them I use linux at home, as do most of our ambassadors, and most of us have little or no commercial interest in it at all. > Installing Fedora Core on a bare hard drive is _easier_ than Windows. > Installing Fedora Core into a dual-boot is _easier_ than Windows. > Installation has _never_ been the problem. Why? > Because 99.9% of home users get their OS _pre-installed_! Yeah, more or less. Installing Linux being hard is an urban legend, more or less (and gentoo isn't helping ;) 95% of all FC installs are real easy, but there is still the 5% that fails hard because of non complaint hardware. There really isn't much developers can do, not because they couldn't crack the hardware's drivers, but because it is impossible to locate every peripheral possible, and hack on it. As our user base increases, we get more hardware supported (and more kernel bloat ;) > > and upgrading needs to be fail proof from version to version. > > Fedora Core upgrades _easier_ than Windows too. > Heck, even Service Packs or Hotfixes to Windows. > I'm trying to find out what you are "comparing" to here? I think he means between cores. Upgrading FC4->FC5 is miserable, when just core packages are used. Throw in 3rd party apps, code build from source (on a devel box), and that is enough to b0rk pretty bad. But this is a fedora think, not a linux one. And you can resist upgrading, by choosing to stick with legacy, if it IS an issue. I'm sure that this particular issue is NOT a problem for a home user, but rather an enterprise one. > > Previously installed drives with personal user data needs to be able > > to be retained without fail from upgrade to upgrade if the user isn't > > doing a clean install. > > Okay, you've got to be _kidding_me_ here! _All_ UNIX systems have "home > directories." It is 100% _absolute_ and _all_ programs save config > files and data to it! Anyone who has used UNIX before knows that you should mount /home on it's own partition. I'm not sure if the FC installer does this (never auto partitioned), but this will let you keep everything between upgrades, down to your wallpaper. > > Now I would like to move on to "partnerships" Fedora project should > > look into making "partners" or some other creative term to define > > other Linux projects and organizations. In this partnership Fedora > > will tightly enforce standards which will ensure that any software > > created to run on fedora is following say the OIN and the GPL > > standards to the letter to ensure an user friendly and secure/stable > > operating system that runs smoothly. Are you saying we should build some trap which will not allow us to install any proprietary app? Or ban Adobe from creating rpms? People like oracle build rpms for RHEL which are completely closed source. And people like Red Hat earn a living from Oracle on RHEL. We can't ban closed source software. We must accept them to live together. Fedora will not distribute it, but they will not disallow others from getting it either > The GPL does _not_ guarantee anything. > In fact, open source does _not_ guarantee anything. Well, it guarantees freedom ;) > > If Fedora project implements such a model, > > What "model"? I honestly don't know what you're looking for. You're > making assumptions that are incorrect -- about Linux, about Windows, > etc... I think said individual wants to turn Fedora into Red Hat. Free software, with support available, and a guarantee. This isn't about to happen, we aren't going to hire people for support. 3rd party vendors are welcome to do this however. They are allowed to charge to support Fedora. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, I believe BobJensen does something like this. He ensures that boxes with Fedora run 100% for his clients, and he charges for it. Fedora won't provide support, but we won't stop you from going to any other 3rd party for support. That's open source. > > I should also mention that those software development groups that do > > not comply could be offered as Fedora extras so the community still > > has choices which is really part of the appeal of Linux. > > Comply with what? I think our friend here is advocating proprietary software in extras. Not going to happen, sorry... Next topic. > > Now say a "ambassador" from Fedora can start making the rounds to Dell > > and other companies and attempt to get them to start offering this > > FREE Linux distribution on some of their PC models, which would also > > allow for lower prices on the retail side for them (ie Dell, Gateway > > etc.) as the OS is FREE and that cuts down on cost which the end user > > ends up incurring. > > *BUZZ* WRONG! THANK YOU FOR PLAYING! > Have you ever heard the Microsoft term, "per-model licensing"? > Please, _please_ read up on this. This is one of those lose-lose situations. When windows is on, we are forced to pay extra for the software. When there is no os on, then that is a ground of promoting piracy. If we FORCE linux/fedora on it, then it is as bad as having windows, as it simply is against freedom. But, that being said, it is in the project's interest to request Dell to put fedora on their boxes. On the other hand, Dell already KNOW linux is free, you aren't telling them ANYTHING new. This is an interesting topic, but I'm leaving it for now > > Fedora project could basically offer technical support certification > > and training to Dell staff as an example so they (the PC manufacturer) > > can then take over supporting the platform for their end users, which > > also equates to revenue for these companies in the long run because > > they can offer extended tech support to end users at a premium. > > Do you know what's _involved_ with building a training/certification > program? If not, get involved with LPI! And not only that, everything changes every 6 months. If you tried editing your yum.conf now, it will be really different from what it looked like a year ago, in FC2 Remember, between then an now, everything moved to yum.repos.d > > With the software being a open and free model we still have to realize > > with a flurry of hodge podge coding and no standards insight > > Whoa! Great job! You've managed to insult the projects. > > No offense, but in working on _mission_critical_ defense and financial > systems code for about 9 years of my career, I can tell you, with great > certainty, that open source is _very_robust_ and _very_standardized_. > > The problem isn't coding and no standards -- that's Windows' problem! > Open source projects are _far_better_! You obviously haven't looked at the code for OpenOffice.org (not that I understood it ;) Of course, that is a closed source program that became open, so doesn't count. And further, at least we HAVE the source, and we can change it, and I know there is a huge effort going on to clean it up. So yes, we have things a lot better > Yes, I agree the home user is bombarded by software written largely by > incompetent, oursourced or H1B Visa Indian, Irish and Israeli > programmers who have had virtually _little_ (if any) exposure to any > formal software development or engineering processes, let alone don't > care about the software they write like the passion of open source. Excuse me? This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate. Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors. >From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE, Rahul, here on the Fedora Board, The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife) Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac was pried from his hands) Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat bangalore offices) Sankarshan Runa B Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu, and I could go on for a while This comment is simply racist. Tejas Dinkar From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 07:21:14 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:51:14 +0530 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <4449D5FF.4030808@adelphia.net> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4449D5FF.4030808@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <1145690474.15659.47.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 02:06 -0500, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: > Haha.. > Did he tell you Redhat, Inc. wasn't a printing mill? Didn't you get the memo? Red Hat is scared that someone has patented paper, and so they will no longer print out anything. Oh thats right, we couldn't print the memo ;) Gja From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 07:41:13 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:41:13 -0500 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> Tejas Dinkar wrote: >I use linux at home, as do most of our ambassadors, and most of us have >little or no commercial interest in it at all. > > > As an ambassador it should be in your interest to be interested in Linux anywhere. In the field, office or home.I think he means between cores. >I think he means between cores. >Upgrading FC4->FC5 is miserable, when just core packages are used. Throw >in 3rd party apps, code build from source (on a devel box), and that is >enough to b0rk pretty bad. > > This isn't true at all. I think you are confusing YUM upgrading between cores not upgrading with Anaconda. >>>Previously installed drives with personal user data needs to be able >>>to be retained without fail from upgrade to upgrade if the user isn't >>>doing a clean install. >>> >>> >>Okay, you've got to be _kidding_me_ here! _All_ UNIX systems have "home >>directories." It is 100% _absolute_ and _all_ programs save config >>files and data to it! >> >> > >Anyone who has used UNIX before knows that you should mount /home on >it's own partition. I'm not sure if the FC installer does this (never >auto partitioned), but this will let you keep everything between >upgrades, down to your wallpaper. > > It does, it even allows you to type in what partitions you want. /home, /var, /etc, /usr /tmp and of course my favorite, /pub 8-) >>>Now say a "ambassador" from Fedora can start making the rounds to Dell >>>and other companies and attempt to get them to start offering this >>>FREE Linux distribution on some of their PC models, which would also >>>allow for lower prices on the retail side for them (ie Dell, Gateway >>>etc.) as the OS is FREE and that cuts down on cost which the end user >>>ends up incurring. >>> >>> >>*BUZZ* WRONG! THANK YOU FOR PLAYING! >>Have you ever heard the Microsoft term, "per-model licensing"? >>Please, _please_ read up on this. >> >> > >This is one of those lose-lose situations. > >When windows is on, we are forced to pay extra for the software. > >When there is no os on, then that is a ground of promoting piracy. > >If we FORCE linux/fedora on it, then it is as bad as having windows, as >it simply is against freedom. > >But, that being said, it is in the project's interest to request Dell to >put fedora on their boxes. On the other hand, Dell already KNOW linux is >free, you aren't telling them ANYTHING new. > > > Companies already ship Linux on thier PCs. A friend of mine who works at Best Buy has had several people come in and request Linux be put on a new PC they are buying and guess what.. that's right.. what the customer wants is what the customer gets. I have a magazine sitting right here if you want me to give you phone numbers and purchasing information on these vendors. >>Yes, I agree the home user is bombarded by software written largely by >>incompetent, oursourced or H1B Visa Indian, Irish and Israeli >>programmers who have had virtually _little_ (if any) exposure to any >>formal software development or engineering processes, let alone don't >>care about the software they write like the passion of open source. >> >> > >Excuse me? > >This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate. > >Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors. > >>From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE, >Rahul, here on the Fedora Board, >The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife) >Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac >was pried from his hands) >Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat >bangalore offices) >Sankarshan >Runa B >Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu, > >and I could go on for a while > >This comment is simply racist. > > You must have lived a very sheltered childhood. I too come from a military background, in fact my uncle is a retired Marine Captain and is now working as a civilian at the Pentagon. My Grandfather and Mother both are retired military, my Grandfather being a veteran of Vietnam. It may have been off-key, but racist?? Read what he wrote: incompetent, oursourced or H1B Visa Indian, Irish and Israeli programmers who have had virtually _little_ (if any) exposure to any formal software development or engineering processes I didn't hear him say Gook, Spic or Slope. Did you? Seriously. J. Hartline From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 07:42:55 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:42:55 -0500 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <1145690474.15659.47.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4449D5FF.4030808@adelphia.net> <1145690474.15659.47.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <4449DE7F.7000503@adelphia.net> Tejas Dinkar wrote: >On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 02:06 -0500, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: > > >>Haha.. >>Did he tell you Redhat, Inc. wasn't a printing mill? >> >> > >Didn't you get the memo? > >Red Hat is scared that someone has patented paper, and so they will no >longer print out anything. > >Oh thats right, we couldn't print the memo ;) > > I didn't get the fax either. 8-) J. Hartline From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 07:55:20 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:55:20 -0500 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <4449E168.2060501@adelphia.net> Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: >> Excuse me? >> This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate. >> Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors. >> From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE, >> Rahul, here on the Fedora Board, >> The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife) >> Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac >> was pried from his hands) >> Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat >> bangalore offices) >> Sankarshan >> Runa B >> Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu, >> >> and I could go on for a while >> >> This comment is simply racist. > > You must have lived a very sheltered childhood. > I too come from a military background, in fact my uncle is a retired > Marine Captain > and is now working as a civilian at the Pentagon. My Grandfather and > Mother both > are retired military, my Grandfather being a veteran of Vietnam. > > It may have been off-key, but racist?? I must also include, I was already put-off by asking why we had Fedora Ambassadors spying on Mandriva install parties on this list. I don't know what is or isn't the job, idealogy or focus of Ambassadors but I can say personally that isn't how things work around my house. Spying on other projects install parties to better yourself is exactly what it was, whether you want to take it in that context or not. In any case I had shown the mails to a few people and they were less than impressed. I think the ambassadors need to stop with the tunnel vision and try to think about priorities. As an Ambassador I would think it is in your focus to promote Fedora Core, end of story. J. Hartline From michael at knox.net.nz Sat Apr 22 08:01:45 2006 From: michael at knox.net.nz (Michael J Knox) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:01:45 +1200 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <4449E2E9.2090407@knox.net.nz> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > I use linux at home, as do most of our ambassadors, and most of us have > little or no commercial interest in it at all. > hrmm.. 90% of my advocating is in the commercial sector for Fedora and RHEL. I used solely Fedora and RHEL in my work and at home. Probably best that you don't make "sweeping" statements about what others interests are without firm knowledge and or stats to back it ;) As for the rest of the email, sounded like a flame fest brewing, so I won't comment.... Michael From fedora at freehold.no-ip.info Sat Apr 22 09:10:03 2006 From: fedora at freehold.no-ip.info (Clair) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:10:03 +0100 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <200604221010.03659.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> On Saturday 22 April 2006 08:16, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > And not only that, everything changes every 6 months. > > If you tried editing your yum.conf now, it will be really different from > what it looked like a year ago, in FC2 > > Remember, between then an now, everything moved to yum.repos.d conf.d is a common way of writing config. Same file, but split into several files. Not much of a change. > You obviously haven't looked at the code for OpenOffice.org (not that I > understood it ;) > > Of course, that is a closed source program that became open, so doesn't > count. > > And further, at least we HAVE the source, and we can change it, and I > know there is a huge effort going on to clean it up. So yes, we have > things a lot better A lot of open source code is dirty. Who cares? If it works, great. If it doesn't, then fork it and tidy it up. Clair. From fedora at freehold.no-ip.info Sat Apr 22 09:13:45 2006 From: fedora at freehold.no-ip.info (Clair) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:13:45 +0100 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <4449E168.2060501@adelphia.net> References: <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> <4449E168.2060501@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> On Saturday 22 April 2006 08:55, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: > I must also include, I was already put-off by asking why we had > Fedora Ambassadors spying on Mandriva install parties on this list. > > I don't know what is or isn't the job, idealogy or focus of Ambassadors > but I can say personally that isn't how things work around my house. > Spying on other projects install parties to better yourself is exactly > what it was, whether you want to take it in that context or not. > > In any case I had shown the mails to a few people and they were less than > impressed. I think the ambassadors need to stop with the tunnel vision and > try to think about priorities. As an Ambassador I would think it is in your > focus to promote Fedora Core, end of story. If it was spying, they'd be wearing black clothes and jumping in through the ceiling :) But seriously, an ambassador went along to an install party to see "how they did it", so that Fedora ones can take any good ideas from it. No harm in that, is there? Clair From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 14:26:05 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 12:46 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Excuse me? > This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate. > Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors. > From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE, > Rahul, here on the Fedora Board, > The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife) > Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac > was pried from his hands) > Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat > bangalore offices) > Sankarshan > Runa B > Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu, > and I could go on for a while > This comment is simply racist. That's because you took it wrong and didn't pay attention to the fact I was talking about _major_ H1B Visa and outsourcing abusers like Diebold, IBM, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... when it comes to _commercial_ software or in-house software development. Understand *I* have worked with _many_ foreign nationals on _many_ engineering projects. In fact, I've often been a "minority native-born American" on them and that was just fine by me! Immigrants make the United States -- something Americans don't realize. They have been _experts_ and, in many cases, _uniquely_qualified_. This _includes_ many _outstanding_ open source project originators and maintainers. But the problem right now in the US is that we keep importing the _crap_ of the world on 90% of our H1B Visas and while letting the "lowest foreign bidder" develop software, 90% who are typically _not_ qualified. My points are ... A. In the open source world, the software is produced by qualified people. These people typically have a passion for their development, and they excel at it. They can be _any_ nationality, and many are _not_ Americans. You get the _best_ the _world_ has to offer. B. In the commercial software world, the software is produced by commercial funding of "the lowest price." In these cases, many _unqualified_ Indian, Irish, Israeli and other firms are tapped -- or H1B Visas granted to bring such _unqualified_ individual in because of the costs. You get the _lowest_price_ the _world_ has to offer. C. I have personally seen this first-hand in a half-dozen Fortune 100 companies. I have written both requirements for outsourced software as well as managed H1B Visa workers. In a couple of cases, they wanted to (and sometimes did) send me or someone I worked with to a foreign nation to supervise these developers. In 90% of the cases, they were _not_ remotely qualified -- and it was a pure cost game, one that was impossible to deal with. But American companies don't care, and that's why we get the crap in commercial software! So *WHY* would you *PAY* for *COMMERCIAL* software that is the "lowest price the world has to offer" when you can get *OPEN*SOURCE* software designed by "the best the world has to offer"? That's why Open Source is _better_! D. The IEEE has been trying to get the stupid "pro-protectionalim v. pro-immigration" non-sense to stop, because _both_ sides are _wrong_! H1B Visas are basically indentured servitude. Green Cards are not. If you give an immigrant a Green Card, they aren't under the thumb of a sponsoring company, but free to take whatever job they want. This not only means they won't be underpaid, unlike in the H1B Visa system, but it also means we aren't letting corporations import _crap_ merely because of price. Linus Torvalds is one of the IEEE's Poster Children on this -- he was given a H1B Visa when he was _unqiuely_qualified_ and should have been given a Green Card. Miguel deIcaza is another. As a responsible American, I _welcome_ both world competition and immigration. But right now, America is _shooting_ itself in the foot by allowing its companies to import unqualified slaves under H1B Visas and outsourcing to companies who clearly are _not_ qualified to do many software developments. That's why the crap we get from IBM, Microsoft and many others is junk. It's why Diebold, State Farm and other financial companies are putting in _horrendous_ security nightmares into our financial systems. It's why Boeing, Lockheed-Martin and other firms have major development issues (even if Americans with Security Clearances design the products, some of the IT/software they use is more H1B Visa and outsourced "lowest price" non-sense). I hope you see my point now. I, as well as the IEEE, typically get caught in the cross-fire between "protectionalism" and "immigration." H1B Visa are _not_ immigration. They do _not_ allow America to become better by allowing the best of the world to immigrate. And outsourcing is being done irresponsibly in 90% of cases. I have argued where oursourcing does and doesn't work, just like I argued where COTS usage at NASA does and doesn't work in the '90s. You can't save on everything! But that all does _not_ matter when it comes to community developed software! You get the _best_ of the world! People who want to work on software. People who _know_ their field! Not merely someone who is paid, or in 90% of cases, _overstates_ what their company can do for the "lowest price." Sorry, that's what I see from 90% of the Indian, Irish and Israeli firms and H1B Visa workers I've worked with and saved their asses on. That's the commercial software world in the US for you right now. It's that other 10%, the ones that are actually worth more, that get the shaft. Luckily they make up the bulk of open source software development. The best the world has to offer. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From fedora at freehold.no-ip.info Sat Apr 22 14:27:12 2006 From: fedora at freehold.no-ip.info (Clair) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:27:12 +0100 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <200604221527.12946.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> vim's better! Sorry, wrong thread. Clair ;) On Saturday 22 April 2006 15:26, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 12:46 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > > Excuse me? > > This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate. > > Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors. > > From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE, > > Rahul, here on the Fedora Board, > > The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife) > > Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac > > was pried from his hands) > > Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat > > bangalore offices) > > Sankarshan > > Runa B > > Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu, > > and I could go on for a while > > This comment is simply racist. > > That's because you took it wrong and didn't pay attention to the fact I > was talking about _major_ H1B Visa and outsourcing abusers like Diebold, > IBM, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... when it comes to _commercial_ > software or in-house software development. > > Understand *I* have worked with _many_ foreign nationals on _many_ > engineering projects. In fact, I've often been a "minority native-born > American" on them and that was just fine by me! Immigrants make the > United States -- something Americans don't realize. They have been > _experts_ and, in many cases, _uniquely_qualified_. This _includes_ > many _outstanding_ open source project originators and maintainers. > > But the problem right now in the US is that we keep importing the _crap_ > of the world on 90% of our H1B Visas and while letting the "lowest > foreign bidder" develop software, 90% who are typically _not_ qualified. > > My points are ... > > A. In the open source world, the software is produced by qualified > people. These people typically have a passion for their development, > and they excel at it. They can be _any_ nationality, and many are _not_ > Americans. You get the _best_ the _world_ has to offer. > > B. In the commercial software world, the software is produced by > commercial funding of "the lowest price." In these cases, many > _unqualified_ Indian, Irish, Israeli and other firms are tapped -- or > H1B Visas granted to bring such _unqualified_ individual in because of > the costs. You get the _lowest_price_ the _world_ has to offer. > > C. I have personally seen this first-hand in a half-dozen Fortune 100 > companies. I have written both requirements for outsourced software as > well as managed H1B Visa workers. In a couple of cases, they wanted to > (and sometimes did) send me or someone I worked with to a foreign nation > to supervise these developers. In 90% of the cases, they were _not_ > remotely qualified -- and it was a pure cost game, one that was > impossible to deal with. > > But American companies don't care, and that's why we get the crap in > commercial software! > > So *WHY* would you *PAY* for *COMMERCIAL* software that is the "lowest > price the world has to offer" when you can get *OPEN*SOURCE* software > designed by "the best the world has to offer"? > > That's why Open Source is _better_! > > D. The IEEE has been trying to get the stupid "pro-protectionalim v. > pro-immigration" non-sense to stop, because _both_ sides are _wrong_! > H1B Visas are basically indentured servitude. Green Cards are not. If > you give an immigrant a Green Card, they aren't under the thumb of a > sponsoring company, but free to take whatever job they want. This not > only means they won't be underpaid, unlike in the H1B Visa system, but > it also means we aren't letting corporations import _crap_ merely > because of price. Linus Torvalds is one of the IEEE's Poster Children > on this -- he was given a H1B Visa when he was _unqiuely_qualified_ and > should have been given a Green Card. Miguel deIcaza is another. > > As a responsible American, I _welcome_ both world competition and > immigration. But right now, America is _shooting_ itself in the foot by > allowing its companies to import unqualified slaves under H1B Visas and > outsourcing to companies who clearly are _not_ qualified to do many > software developments. That's why the crap we get from IBM, Microsoft > and many others is junk. It's why Diebold, State Farm and other > financial companies are putting in _horrendous_ security nightmares into > our financial systems. It's why Boeing, Lockheed-Martin and other firms > have major development issues (even if Americans with Security > Clearances design the products, some of the IT/software they use is more > H1B Visa and outsourced "lowest price" non-sense). > > > I hope you see my point now. I, as well as the IEEE, typically get > caught in the cross-fire between "protectionalism" and "immigration." > H1B Visa are _not_ immigration. They do _not_ allow America to become > better by allowing the best of the world to immigrate. And outsourcing > is being done irresponsibly in 90% of cases. I have argued where > oursourcing does and doesn't work, just like I argued where COTS usage > at NASA does and doesn't work in the '90s. You can't save on > everything! > > But that all does _not_ matter when it comes to community developed > software! You get the _best_ of the world! People who want to work on > software. People who _know_ their field! Not merely someone who is > paid, or in 90% of cases, _overstates_ what their company can do for the > "lowest price." Sorry, that's what I see from 90% of the Indian, Irish > and Israeli firms and H1B Visa workers I've worked with and saved their > asses on. That's the commercial software world in the US for you right > now. > > It's that other 10%, the ones that are actually worth more, that get the > shaft. Luckily they make up the bulk of open source software > development. The best the world has to offer. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 14:44:39 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:44:39 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <1145717079.3590.149.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 02:41 -0500, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: > You must have lived a very sheltered childhood. I too come from a > military background, in fact my uncle is a retired Marine Captain > and is now working as a civilian at the Pentagon. My Grandfather and > Mother both are retired military, my Grandfather being a veteran of > Vietnam. > It may have been off-key, but racist?? It was out-of-context without detail, I apologize. Understand I am an American-born engineer who has worked _most_ of my early career with _far_more_intelligent_ and _experienced_ foreign-born workers than myself. But the trend of H1B Visa abuse and outsourcing in the last 8 years has utterly turned it 180 degrees the other way! These developments are the _crap_ that is writing software at or for Boeing, Diebold, IBM, Lockheed-Martin, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... > Read what he wrote: > incompetent, oursourced or H1B Visa Indian, Irish and Israeli > programmers who have had virtually _little_ (if any) exposure to any > formal software development or engineering processes That is _who_ Diebold, IBM, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... are using right now to develop commercial and in-house software. They are using the "lowest price the world has to offer." Open source will _continue_ to be the "best the world has to offer." You've never seen the H1B Visa system in action until you've seen that 10% foreign, minority _expert_ have to deal with the other 90% of _crap_ that came from the same (and other) countries. And the only reason they came is because they were _cheap_ and they cannot leave for another American company because they don't hold Green Cards. It's really bad people. It's abuse. The problem with immigration in America has never been the immigrant. It's always been the American who is ready to abuse them. The H1B Visa is a legalized system of abuse. With the Green Card system, foreign-born workers could change jobs and get paid what they are worth. Those who were not qualified would not get jobs, or not last long, and would not. Oursourcing is a major problem. American managers, who are nearsighted to only 3 years or less of budget, don't care what kind of software they get back -- just that they met deadlines and saved a lot of money. There are only a very select few engineer-managed companies left, like HP (which, not surprisingly, is one of the _real_ companies that "get Linux" -- because they're engineers!) and look at a 30 year plan. NASA was nearsighted in the '90s too. After the Mars Pathfinder mission, they started slashing budgets 90% and using COTS. They didn't realize they were slashing necessary costs like QA. So it wasn't a big surprise when the Mars Polar Lander crashed because one team was using Metric units and another Imperial standard. They realized that they couldn't save on everything, but maybe save 30-40% overall by using COTS. The same is happening in outsourcing today. American managers save 90% and save on everything -- not realizing you can't outsource it all. But what do they care, they'll be promoted and freed up by the time the software goes into production. I mean, you have things like business logic and locale being developed by foreign developers who have no concept of American common law and business. I constantly had to define American legal and other terms, and train developers on details. It's one thing for them to write a low-level subsystem for communication (although some were utterly lacking in basic architecture/concepts), but to write user-interfaces, documentation, etc... Nuts! Again, the problem isn't the people, it's the _system_ setup that causes the problems. I've worked with so many qualified, foreign-born experts -- people more intelligent than myself. But with increased H1B Visa abuse and outsourcing, it's gone from 90% qualified immigrants/workers (far in excess of the native American percentage) to 10% qualified immigrants/workers (often replacing the greater percentage of native, American knowledge -- and only because they are cheaper). Sorry, I didn't mean to introduce this tangent. But this is commercial software for you in the US today. It's utter crap. That's why I believe in open source strongly -- the best the world has to offer! -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 14:53:24 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:23:24 +0530 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145717605.3734.17.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 10:26 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > That's because you took it wrong and didn't pay attention to the fact I > was talking about _major_ H1B Visa and outsourcing abusers like Diebold, > IBM, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... when it comes to _commercial_ > software or in-house software development. Ok, perhaps I misunderstood your post. I Apologize for accusing you of being racist. It just struck a bit close to home. Tejas Dinkar From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 14:59:35 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:29:35 +0530 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145717079.3590.149.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> <1145717079.3590.149.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145717975.3734.19.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 10:44 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > That's why I believe in open source strongly -- the best the world has to offer! You know, I really like this quote Open Source, the Best the World has to Offer! Gja From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 15:02:59 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:02:59 -0400 Subject: Open source ... globally developed, locally customized ... In-Reply-To: <1145717079.3590.149.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> <1145717079.3590.149.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145718179.3590.168.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 10:44 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > The same is happening in outsourcing today. American managers save 90% > and save on everything -- not realizing you can't outsource it all. But > what do they care, they'll be promoted and freed up by the time the > software goes into production. I mean, you have things like business > logic and locale being developed by foreign developers who have no > concept of American common law and business. I constantly had to define > American legal and other terms, and train developers on details. It's > one thing for them to write a low-level subsystem for communication > (although some were utterly lacking in basic architecture/concepts), but > to write user-interfaces, documentation, etc... Nuts! One thing I've been meaning to write on is why open source is better in not only the global economy, but the market locale. It highlights (and solves) one of the chronic issues with past, largely American-led (and ignorant), commercial software and sales overseas. Linux is developed globally, to solve problems that are common and cross boundaries, languages and other, more social details. That is why Linux is so technical strong, with a solid foundation to standards and interoperability. But what most people don't realize is that Linux is also very, very localized. While the software itself is developed world-wide, it is customized into localized business logic, common law, language, marketing and support. The distributions are collectives by and of software projects that solve technical problems. But the distributions are how the software, as a collective whole, is regression and integration tested, put into form and function for the locale, and not only marketed, but supported as such. Take the commercial origins of Connectiva, Mandrake, SuSE, etc... out of commercial aspects of Red Hat. Here are South American Portuguese-Spanish, European-French, European-German derivatives that are largely a fall-out of an American-English distribution that probably could never have been as localized, no matter what international focus and support efforts Red Hat put into them. Sure, more on the pure community end (even if there is commercial support), we're seeing American-founded Fedora join German-founded Debian, but that's largely because there are not the commercial aspect that almost force locale with related marketing and support. I mean, even Debian founder Ian Murdock has Progeny for the more commercial aspects -- and some of their focus (e.g., configuration management as a process, not a product) doesn't market well to many American commercial views (e.g., we want fixed product). Now compare these _realities_ of locale, with related marketing and support, when it comes to more localized Linux distribution focus to those of ... say ... Microsoft? Here's an American-English company that first makes assumptions in software in the context of American business logic, English language, American common law, marketing, support, etc..., then goes out and hires the "lowest price the world has to offer." Then it has to deal with the differences is locale assumption in working in their developments back into the American-English assumptions that make the product. Then that product is re-"translated" back into various foreign logic, language, law, marketing, etc... Yeah, after 2-3 levels, it's not only inefficient, but a _lot_ is lost. Especially when you have Service Packs, Hotfixes, documentation, etc... _only_ available in American-English at times. ;-> Whereas Open Source starts with _global_ input on the _common_ locale that "we all have the same technical problems." And as they are solved by the "best the world has to offer," each locale takes them, integrates them into a distribution, with the logic, language, law, marketing and support behind them that is far more locale. Much more efficient and, more importantly, without all the American-English assumptions. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 15:18:49 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:18:49 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <1145717605.3734.17.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145717605.3734.17.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <1145719130.3590.185.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 20:23 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Ok, perhaps I misunderstood your post. No, I'm partly responsible for not explaining my viewpoint better. I'm a very frustrated American Engineer. I'm seeing American businesses piss our country down the drain. Not because developers are Indian, Irish or Israeli, but because with so much H1B Visa abuse and outsourcing, 90% of its is crap just because it saves money. It's not like it was in the mid-'90s and earlier, when you didn't have expansion of the H1B Visa system and outsourcing was done carefully. I've worked in the defense industry, semiconductor industry and the financial industry over 15 years now. It used to be that foreign-born engineers and technologists were given Green Cards and became the most outstanding of Americans. Because they were allowed to move from company to company, he could ask for the same salaries as myself. If he wasn't qualified, he didn't last, because an American was the same price. That's why 90% of immigrant engineers were very qualified -- far more than the percentage of Americans who really didn't deserve their positions at times. It was a great balance! Now we have the H1B Visa system, not an immigration system at all. Having qualified Americans replaced with crap, just because they are 1/3rd the price, is horrendous. So we've gone from 90% quality of immigrants (displacing maybe 50-60% _unqualified_ Americans -- which is a _good_thing_ -- especially since most of these immigrants will become Americans!) to 10% quality immigrants (replacing _all_ Americans, including the 40-50% qualified -- just because they are 1/3rd the salary). Outsourcing is now a joke. Every company I've worked at spends more on "fixing" what they get back, sending Americans overseas to supervise development teams, and generally _discarding_ most of what they get. In many cases, the original business manager who started it has been promoted because of the savings, and the next guy is "stuck with it." Why? Because these Indian, Irish, Israeli and other companies I've worked with _oversell_ what they can do. I have fixed so much crap, and saved their butts so many times (e.g., when I've been a peer-consultant on-site to their firms) it sickens me. I've seen it first hand at most of the companies I mentioned before. Open Source? This crap doesn't happen. You get the _best_ the world has to offer, period. People either know or they don't, or they learn trying, failing, picking themselves back up and succeeding. That is what made American engineering strong in the past. I'm very happy, both as an American and engineer, to see that this is a world-wide reality. In fact, nothing sickens me as both an engineer and as an American than when I see a technician say, "oh, Microsoft gives me job security because their stuff always breaks." And people wonder why the US is going down the toilet! > I Apologize for accusing you of being racist. Hey, I'm a land-locked, 1-language, ignorant American. Sometimes I need to check to make sure I'm not being a racist or bigot. No offense taken at all -- especially since I didn't detail what I meant. > It just struck a bit close to home. I know. Just try to realize what I'm saying. I've worked with extremely intelligent, uniquely qualified, foreign-born individuals from literally 50+ nations in my career. Most of them were far more intelligent than I. But in today's American corporation that develops software for either in-house use or sale, it's changes drastically over the last 8 years. It's gone from finding that talent and asking them to become an American to telling them they have to work for 1/3rd their worth and they can't become Americans. If you think that is bad for America, what about that uniquely qualified, foreign-born expert who is now not only surrounded by his "cheap labor" peers, but then assumed to be "just another under-qualified, but cheap H1B Visa worker" like them? 90% of H1B Visa workers and outsourcing partners are crap today. And that's who's writing in-house and commercial software in America's Fortune 100 companies. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 15:31:09 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:31:09 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <1145719130.3590.185.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145717605.3734.17.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145719130.3590.185.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145719869.3590.193.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 11:18 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Now we have the H1B Visa system, not an immigration system at all. > Having qualified Americans replaced with crap, just because they are > 1/3rd the price, is horrendous. So we've gone from 90% quality of > immigrants (displacing maybe 50-60% _unqualified_ Americans -- which is > a _good_thing_ -- especially since most of these immigrants will become > Americans!) to 10% quality immigrants (replacing _all_ Americans, > including the 40-50% qualified -- just because they are 1/3rd the > salary). > ... > Open Source? This crap doesn't happen. You get the _best_ the world > has to offer, period. People either know or they don't, or they learn > trying, failing, picking themselves back up and succeeding. That is > what made American engineering strong in the past. I'm very happy, both > as an American and engineer, to see that this is a world-wide reality. Just want to point out 1 more detail ... Red Hat (among other, community-development-focused commercial entities) hires some of the world's best Open Source developers. They are people who have _already_ established their talent publicly. They are not merely a "worker" who some head-hunter/foreign-agency oversells as qualified. So even though Red Hat likely has to hire foreign-born workers under H1B Visas to come and work in the US, or outsource their work to them remotely, that is _not_ the same as what I'm talking about. If anything, both Red Hat and these individuals are _victims_ of our currently screwed up H1B Visa system and/or common outsourcing logic. That's why the IEEE has been trying to get through the business and immigration special interest groups -- to _ban_ the H1B Visa, _issue_ Green Cards to established, foreign engineers, developers and technicians who want to come work in the US, and to point out the follies of outsourcing by American corporations who nearsightedly can't see past 2-3 years of planning. -- Bryan P.S. I don't speak for the IEEE in any capacity. But I agree with almost all of their efforts 100% on this. The entire pro-protectionalist and pro-immmigration lobby on both sides has it _all_wrong_. Just give people Green Cards and let the market decide. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 15:27:46 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:27:46 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <1145719130.3590.185.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145717605.3734.17.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145719130.3590.185.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910604220827i233ad007j8380ebdd70c8b249@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I'm a very frustrated American Engineer. I'm seeing American businesses > piss our country down the drain. Not because developers are Indian, > Irish or Israeli, but because with so much H1B Visa abuse and > outsourcing, 90% of its is crap just because it saves money. I'm pretty sure your congressperson isn't on this list so whatever political agenda you seem to be on fire about, but its well outside the scope of anything appropriate with regard to fedora discussion. The specifics about US government's current Visa policies are at best tangential discussion, at worst its a discussion destined to offend because its clearly a deeply emotional issue for you and you have lapsed into general venting about. It's time to let this particular topic go on this list and its time for you to contact your congressperson and vent. -jef"Or how about I write a 40 page manfesto on how the current US energy policy blows monkeychunks and point out the specifics as to where open source transitioning works to reduce the cost of diversifying the energy policy and then post it one page at a time to this list over the next month or so"spaleta From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 15:39:53 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:39:53 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys" In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604220827i233ad007j8380ebdd70c8b249@mail.gmail.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145690176.15659.45.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145715965.3590.132.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1145717605.3734.17.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> <1145719130.3590.185.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <604aa7910604220827i233ad007j8380ebdd70c8b249@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145720393.3590.198.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 11:27 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I'm pretty sure your congressperson isn't on this list so whatever > political agenda you seem to be on fire about, but its well outside > the scope of anything appropriate with regard to fedora discussion. My original point was that these are the people writing much of Microsoft software and other commericial and in-house developments. It's based on first-hand experience, both before and after the explosion of the H1B Visa program and outsourcing. > The specifics about US government's current Visa policies are at best > tangential discussion, at worst its a discussion destined to offend > because its clearly a deeply emotional issue for you and you have > lapsed into general venting about. It's time to let this particular > topic go on this list and its time for you to contact your > congressperson and vent. My apologies for taking it to a new level. I realized I managed to insult a few people in my original comment. I've worked with some extremely intelligent and capable Indian, Irish and Israeli immigrants and even a few firms early in my career. And I've worked with utter crap from the same the last 7-8 years, because now they are sending too much of the crap over too. You'd have the same problem if you shipped the lowest technical crap of America too (probably more so). It doesn't happen with Open Source. That was my point. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 15:44:06 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:44:06 -0400 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0604220844t7284a557wec0887dac7f99678@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > E.g., after plunking down $749 for the RH302 exam-only, when I > passed, I didn't even get a printed Certification sent to me -- but only > received a PDF file and had to print it myself! I humored my fellow > Novell colleague Ross Brunson with that one -- even though I regularly > argue FC/RHEL over SuSE/Novell in our other sessions. ] The only way to win this is in the framing. Back when I worked at a tech support farm, I once got in a war with another tech over who had the most meaningless test, with the best sheepskin (Brainbench) and the best exam with the worst cert (A+ at the time sent a stripey, faded cert printed on ink jet with a cert template). It escalted into who had the most total certs. Then on to who had the prettiest frame. We decided to take all of our PDF and "print this page, you're totally certified" and "simple ASCII table wiht your score" certs and put them in ornate gold leaf frames like we were Harvard med grads. Dead center was my buddy's Church of the Sub Genius ordained minister creds, allowing him to perform deflowerings and levitations. Invariably the suits would tour and stop at the wall near our cattle pen and marvel at how well trained our team was. ;-) The gig was finally up when I snuck in my framed portrait of Colonel Sanders. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 16:14:23 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:14:23 -0500 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> References: <4449DE19.1030006@adelphia.net> <4449E168.2060501@adelphia.net> <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> Message-ID: <444A565F.2020503@adelphia.net> Clair wrote: >If it was spying, they'd be wearing black clothes and jumping in through the >ceiling :) > >But seriously, an ambassador went along to an install party to see "how they >did it", so that Fedora ones can take any good ideas from it. > >No harm in that, is there? > > No harm in it at all in my opinion if learning is at the personal level. However as a Fedora Ambassador, it isn't the Ambassador project's main goal or a top priority for Ambassadors to spy on other OSS project's install parties. If learning was at the personal level that is fine, however no one can play that card in this instance because the frame of mind and wording of the mail was not such of learning at the personal level to become a better Fedora Ambassador. That is what I read, this is now what I think. I am a good english speaker and I know you aren't about to tell me I am the only one in a few hundred billion possible readers on this list to have thought this. J. Hartline From lxmaier at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 16:19:35 2006 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:19:35 -0400 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270604220919l45e61bd6ie5893aeb92bb2aeb@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > In fact, Red Hat could learn to > leverage some of its advocates and certification/training Alumni better > too. E.g., after plunking down $749 for the RH302 exam-only, when I > passed, I didn't even get a printed Certification sent to me -- but only > received a PDF file and had to print it myself! I humored my fellow > Novell colleague Ross Brunson with that one -- even though I regularly > argue FC/RHEL over SuSE/Novell in our other sessions. ] Actually, Red Hat has recently expanded its benefits program for Red Hat Certified Professionals, and work is under way to add more perks to it. The Certification Central gives you access to the benefits your cert entitles you to: On-line profile listed under your cert number, Course Updates, Training Specials, and Red Hat Certified Job Search, powered by Dice.com. You will find Cert Central here: https://www.redhat.com/training/certification/ and log in using your cert number. Forgive me if this sounds like plugging, but I hava spent past four months getting this done, and couldn't help :) From fedora at freehold.no-ip.info Sat Apr 22 16:23:17 2006 From: fedora at freehold.no-ip.info (Clair) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:23:17 +0100 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <444A565F.2020503@adelphia.net> References: <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> <444A565F.2020503@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200604221723.18056.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> On Saturday 22 April 2006 17:14, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: > Clair wrote: > >If it was spying, they'd be wearing black clothes and jumping in through > > the ceiling :) > > > >But seriously, an ambassador went along to an install party to see "how > > they did it", so that Fedora ones can take any good ideas from it. > > > >No harm in that, is there? > > No harm in it at all in my opinion if learning is at the personal level. > > However as a Fedora Ambassador, it isn't the Ambassador project's > main goal or a top priority for Ambassadors to spy on other OSS project's > install parties. > > If learning was at the personal level that is fine, however no one can play > that card in this instance because the frame of mind and wording of the > mail was not such of learning at the personal level to become a better > Fedora Ambassador. I understand this is how you have read the mail in question, and I'm not questioning that, however it isn't any kind of priority or goal, and I'm sorry you feel this way. However, let me assure you that I have never been to an install party, Fedora or otherwise, in my life, and I couldn't care less what other linux distros do :) > That is what I read, this is now what I think. I am a good english speaker > and I know you aren't about to tell me I am the only one in a few > hundred billion > possible readers on this list to have thought this. I didn't know the internet went outside the galaxy... ;) Clair From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 16:31:14 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:31:14 -0400 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <7f617d270604220919l45e61bd6ie5893aeb92bb2aeb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <7f617d270604220919l45e61bd6ie5893aeb92bb2aeb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0604220931h16ced8a3t30eac92a54db3003@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Alex Maier wrote: > > > You will find Cert Central here: > https://www.redhat.com/training/certification/ and log in using your > cert number. Very nice. You know what would be neat is if you posted updates to the course materials for the RHCE while the cert was current. Not only would the RHCE keep his "saw sharp", as it were, by constantly deploying the most current set of RH best practices, but when it was time to get current again, they'd have some ability to prep for the course. I know I used my Rapid Track guide daily until it was too out of date. For the folks still wanting a nice framed cert, do you think Red Hat would sell them one? Many univerities have affiliates that sell mini diplomas, or special plaques, or diplomas rendered in the style of the 1800's, etc. That way RHCE and RHCA folks can proudly display their accomplishment (and spread the brand) and Red Hat doesn't become a paper mill, while still controlling who can get them. I know if I earned the RHCA, I would have it printed on a banner that hung off the flagpole at the town hall, just below Old Glory, but that's me. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 16:41:37 2006 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:41:37 -0400 Subject: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) ... In-Reply-To: <556f970a0604220931h16ced8a3t30eac92a54db3003@mail.gmail.com> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <7f617d270604220919l45e61bd6ie5893aeb92bb2aeb@mail.gmail.com> <556f970a0604220931h16ced8a3t30eac92a54db3003@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270604220941s7cbb2c38s4cbf260ee05658f1@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > For the folks still wanting a nice framed cert, do you think Red Hat would > sell them one? As a matter of fact, we are trying to find a good way to handle this--a scalable way, which does note require intern labour :) Promise, as soon as it is out, you'll be the among the first to know! a From jasperhartline at adelphia.net Sat Apr 22 16:43:46 2006 From: jasperhartline at adelphia.net (Jasper O'neal Hartline) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:43:46 -0500 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <200604221723.18056.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> References: <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> <444A565F.2020503@adelphia.net> <200604221723.18056.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> Message-ID: <444A5D42.4080404@adelphia.net> Clair wrote: >>That is what I read, this is now what I think. I am a good english speaker >>and I know you aren't about to tell me I am the only one in a few >>hundred billion >>possible readers on this list to have thought this. >> >> > >I didn't know the internet went outside the galaxy... ;) > > > Hundred million, estimated 6 billion possible readers. I over exaggerated the number. With satellite and microwoave communications I wouldn't doubt the internet could reach the edge of the galaxy. J. Hartline From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 17:08:04 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:08:04 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <444A5D42.4080404@adelphia.net> References: <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> <444A565F.2020503@adelphia.net> <200604221723.18056.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> <444A5D42.4080404@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <556f970a0604221008n77a21877p9944a71b43affaa7@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Jasper O'neal Hartline wrote: > With satellite and microwoave communications I wouldn't > doubt the internet could reach the edge of the galaxy. I hope they like spam, porn and spam about porn out there, then, cuz that's what they're getting. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fedora-marketing at ddeutsch.net Sat Apr 22 17:26:43 2006 From: fedora-marketing at ddeutsch.net (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:26:43 -0400 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <556f970a0604221008n77a21877p9944a71b43affaa7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200604221013.46334.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> <444A565F.2020503@adelphia.net> <200604221723.18056.fedora@cds-world.co.uk> <444A5D42.4080404@adelphia.net> <556f970a0604221008n77a21877p9944a71b43affaa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444A6753.9040105@ddeutsch.net> Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > > On 4/22/06, *Jasper O'neal Hartline* > wrote: > > With satellite and microwoave communications I wouldn't > doubt the internet could reach the edge of the galaxy. > > > I hope they like spam, porn and spam about porn out there, then, cuz > that's what they're getting. > > --jeremy > > Nah, their TCP connections will time out due to transmission delay. And even if they didn't, can you imagine the window size one would need? Oh, and hello everyone. I am new to the list and hope to be able to contribute something useful and serious after a while. :-) Debbie Deutsch From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Apr 22 17:36:00 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:36:00 -0400 Subject: Certification, Training and where Fedora can fit in -- WAS: My Final Summary (and I'll Shutup) In-Reply-To: <7f617d270604220919l45e61bd6ie5893aeb92bb2aeb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1145688458.3590.95.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <7f617d270604220919l45e61bd6ie5893aeb92bb2aeb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145727360.3590.214.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 12:19 -0400, Alex Maier wrote: > Actually, Red Hat has recently expanded its benefits program for Red > Hat Certified Professionals ... Excellent! I was up at LinuxWorld Boston to partake in some LPI efforts. One thing that I had to point out is that both LPI and Red Hat have been ignoring their Alumni, while Novell does a far better job. [ NOTE: I only have a CNA, not a NCLP/NCLE, while having the Linux+, LPIC-1/LPIC-2 and RHCE. So I'm not biased towards Novell, just stating the obvious that LPI (like Red Hat) should do a better job. But even LPI sent me certificates and the best quality cards I've ever seen -- not bad for only paying $400 (actually $320 with discounts). ] > You will find Cert Central here: > https://www.redhat.com/training/certification/ and log in using your > cert number. > Forgive me if this sounds like plugging, but I hava spent past four > months getting this done, and couldn't help :) No, no, this is a Red Hat list! Yes, it's Fedora, but I brought up the comment. My apologies if I prompted your post and people feel both were off-topic, but I'm _glad_ to see this happening. But back on point about Fedora, I don't really see Fedora being able to offer a certification. *HOWEVER*, I *DO* see the "Fedora Ambassadors" offering "free training" on Fedora at LUG meetings and other events (which possibly leads into RHEL too). That will lead to greater attendence for the LUGs. Win-win. I made the same argument with LPI by leveraging its Alumni at their local LUGs too. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ ****** Speed doesn't kill. Difference in speed does! ****** From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 22 20:39:30 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 02:09:30 +0530 Subject: As simple as it gets Message-ID: <1145738370.18551.181.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi http://www.gnomejournal.org/article/42/behind-the-scenes-elijah-newren " Which distribution do you use? Why? Fedora. It?s better than all the others. ;-)" Rahul From b2.mdr.magarzo at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 20:55:39 2006 From: b2.mdr.magarzo at gmail.com (M Daniel R M) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:55:39 +0200 Subject: Marketing ideas -- I have to strongly _disagree_ with 99% of this ... In-Reply-To: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1145686382.3590.75.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1145825739.21748.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > Installing Fedora Core on a bare hard drive is _easier_ than Windows. > Installing Fedora Core into a dual-boot is _easier_ than Windows. > Installation has _never_ been the problem. Why? > Because 99.9% of home users get their OS _pre-installed_! > > > and upgrading needs to be fail proof from version to version. > > Fedora Core upgrades _easier_ than Windows too. > Heck, even Service Packs or Hotfixes to Windows. > I'm trying to find out what you are "comparing" to here? > > > I agree 100% with that, based on my own experience _half a dozen years ago!!_, and also based on what I watch around me from time to time...:-) P.S. I'm afraid the problem is not how much Linux (any flavour) will be able to improve -this could be being increased until the infinite, while the Linux user amount just keeping indefinitely under 1% :-( What Linux (any flavour) needs is more IBM's, more Novell's, more Asian Governments adopting it, more institutions, corporations and official's establishments, more "dirty" money (yeah). Regards, Daniel Rodriguez From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Mon Apr 24 13:17:31 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:17:31 -0400 Subject: Sponsored Media still needs a boost Message-ID: <444CCFEB.40106@webpath.net> Good morning, everyone. Thomas Chung was kind enough to add Sponsored Media [1] to Issue 43 of the Fedora Weekly News. [2] As of this morning, Free Media [3] requests were already backed up 4 days with more than 20 un-filled requests. A good number of requests in the list are for Fedora users in developing nations. It is imperative that we encourage Sponsors for these international requests. After all, the main point of Free Media is to get Fedora to those who may not have the means to get it any other way. It would be an absolute shame if the only requests getting filled were for the USA. (again, thanks to Thomas) It's time to pull out the stops and begin working any and all contacts you may have. If you're a regular on a forum, please make a post about Sponsored Media and the good it will do. If you know (or know of) someone who "mass communicates" either as a member of the Media, has a Blog or a Fan site, please talk with them. If you're not comfortable making the pitch on your own, if you could get me an introduction, I'll be happy to talk with them. The group here can also help you come up with contact/site specific points if you need something tailored. Points to remember with Sponsored Media. *Sometimes all people need to get their generosity flowing is to be asked. *The sponsor need not get a disc if they don't want one. (At least at On-Disk.com [4] We could still use other vendors too) *Fedora itself isn't asking for cash for the project, but there are folks out there who, in the past, have asked to support Fedora financially. If they are still out there and still feel supportive, they can help keep Free Media requests filled. O.K. gang, now let's get down to some good ol' fashion Marketing! ~Karlie [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/SponsoredMedia [2] http://fedoranews.org/wiki/Fedora_Weekly_News_Issue_43 [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia [4] http://on-disk.com/content.php?citem=on-disk/2006/Fedora-FreeMedia.php From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Mon Apr 24 13:46:45 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:46:45 -0400 Subject: Sponsored Media still needs a boost In-Reply-To: <444CCFEB.40106@webpath.net> References: <444CCFEB.40106@webpath.net> Message-ID: <444CD6C5.6020602@webpath.net> My first Post of the day... http://www.linuxgangster.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3587 Feel free to link back to the list if you're efforts are starting to show up on the web. Thanks again for all your hard work, ~Karlie From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Mon Apr 24 13:56:21 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 09:56:21 -0400 Subject: More Sponsored Media Plugs In-Reply-To: <444CD6C5.6020602@webpath.net> References: <444CCFEB.40106@webpath.net> <444CD6C5.6020602@webpath.net> Message-ID: <444CD905.1060403@webpath.net> One more http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=4142.0 Karlie Robinson wrote: > My first Post of the day... > http://www.linuxgangster.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3587 From rodrigomenezes12 at yahoo.com.br Mon Apr 24 13:06:45 2006 From: rodrigomenezes12 at yahoo.com.br (Rodrigo Menezes) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 13:06:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Fedora-ambassadors-list] FISL Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060424130645.91867.qmail@web33807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Guys, http://projetofedora.org/node/28 Last update. The event was a success, we found a lot of users interested in our Project, big companies that we shall work with to publish their cases, some people interested in Install Parties and other stuff. In all the event was delivered 150 DVDs burned in the event, 1000 flyers talking about the Project and 1000 people talking with us (very good). We made two lectures, the first was with full room and the second one was to show FC5 and talk with the users about the Fedora Project (answer questions). Pablo Barrera was in the event too, we are planning to meet again in Latinoware (I think this will happen in September). Now we are ready with the budget, we'll burn DVDs that will be sent to the users through our website (www.projetofedora.org), we are searching new events and creating a Action Plan to work with companies the we talked in FISL. Thank you all for the support, see you all next time. Rodrigo Menezes puneet batura escreveu: On 4/21/06, Rodrigo Menezes wrote: Hi guys, We are in the second day of FISL event, below you can find some photos. We'll update the website as soon as the event is running. http://projetofedora.org/node/28 We found some guys from Red Hat, Christofer came with OLPC, some Juan Ruiz and other guys. They seen to be happy with ou presence here. We wanna says thanks to you all. Thanks for the update.It seems u have done it with all the best u had. Cheers! and keep up the good work.. :-) Our webdesigner (Jayme Ayres) says: "I'm sorry", because the templates in the website is not good. We'll fix this as soon as we find some time. Thanks guys! Rodrigo Menezes --------------------------------- Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail - 1GB de espa?o, alertas de e-mail no celular e anti-spam realmente eficaz. -- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list -- Regards, Puneet Batura Open Source Developer -- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list --------------------------------- Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail - 1GB de espa?o, alertas de e-mail no celular e anti-spam realmente eficaz. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 24 17:14:15 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:14:15 +0200 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, We have launched the vFUDCon Project, a FUDCon that is virtual, of course, but will be accesible with multimedia medium only. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon? >From this sub project of Fedora Marketing we hope, that local ambassadors can extends their marketing perspective through any multimedia medium. The French ambassadors have scheduled one this thursday, on IRC. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France Announcements will be done these following days. (already started on linuxfr) Any suggestions are welcome. Regards, Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From michael at knox.net.nz Mon Apr 24 20:14:00 2006 From: michael at knox.net.nz (Michael J Knox) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:14:00 +1200 Subject: More Sponsored Media Plugs In-Reply-To: <444CD905.1060403@webpath.net> References: <444CCFEB.40106@webpath.net> <444CD6C5.6020602@webpath.net> <444CD905.1060403@webpath.net> Message-ID: <444D3188.6040605@knox.net.nz> Karlie Robinson wrote: > One more > http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=4142.0 > > Karlie Robinson wrote: > >> My first Post of the day... >> http://www.linuxgangster.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3587 > another... http://www.guilinux.com/viewtopic.php?topic=456&forum=140 Michael From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Mon Apr 24 20:24:16 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:24:16 -0400 Subject: More Sponsored Media Plugs In-Reply-To: <444D3188.6040605@knox.net.nz> References: <444CCFEB.40106@webpath.net> <444CD6C5.6020602@webpath.net> <444CD905.1060403@webpath.net> <444D3188.6040605@knox.net.nz> Message-ID: <444D33F0.8050008@webpath.net> thank you, Michael Michael J Knox wrote: > K > another... > > http://www.guilinux.com/viewtopic.php?topic=456&forum=140 > > > Michael From roffe.moshe at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 07:22:52 2006 From: roffe.moshe at gmail.com (Moshe Roffe) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:22:52 +0300 Subject: MythDora Message-ID: <9895be990604260022y139292b8nc94b5fb184d20d97@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I would like to mention The MythDora Distribuiton which is a mixture of Fedora core 4 (Updated) and Myth-TV Package. URL: http://swik.net/MythDora I think all of those distro? could be summarized in a Wiki Page on Fedora Main Site. -- Moshe Roffe, System&Network Administrator RHCE - 803005755016943 Fedora Ambassador, ISRAEL, Western Asia MATRIX-IT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Apr 26 07:48:24 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:48:24 +0300 Subject: MythDora In-Reply-To: <9895be990604260022y139292b8nc94b5fb184d20d97@mail.gmail.com> References: <9895be990604260022y139292b8nc94b5fb184d20d97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444F25C8.6020107@nicubunu.ro> Moshe Roffe wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to mention The MythDora Distribuiton which is a mixture of > Fedora core 4 (Updated) and Myth-TV Package. > > URL: http://swik.net/MythDora > > I think all of those distro? could be summarized in a Wiki Page on > Fedora Main Site. Such a page already exists (MythDora is not listed yet - hint, hint!): http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DerivedDistributions -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Apr 26 11:57:06 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 07:57:06 -0400 Subject: MythDora In-Reply-To: <444F25C8.6020107@nicubunu.ro> References: <9895be990604260022y139292b8nc94b5fb184d20d97@mail.gmail.com> <444F25C8.6020107@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1146052626.3006.5.camel@yoda.loki.me> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:48 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Such a page already exists (MythDora is not listed yet - hint, hint!): > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DerivedDistributions > Can we list it even though it uses things illegal within the US? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 12:11:48 2006 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:11:48 -0400 Subject: MythDora In-Reply-To: <1146052626.3006.5.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <9895be990604260022y139292b8nc94b5fb184d20d97@mail.gmail.com> <444F25C8.6020107@nicubunu.ro> <1146052626.3006.5.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <7f617d270604260511r54f46f6bqb779c7ec54ee09be@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > Can we list it even though it uses things illegal within the US? If it contains stuff illegal in the US, we cannot list it and/or link to it. Alex From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Apr 26 12:12:51 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:12:51 +0300 Subject: MythDora In-Reply-To: <1146052626.3006.5.camel@yoda.loki.me> References: <9895be990604260022y139292b8nc94b5fb184d20d97@mail.gmail.com> <444F25C8.6020107@nicubunu.ro> <1146052626.3006.5.camel@yoda.loki.me> Message-ID: <444F63C3.8090607@nicubunu.ro> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:48 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> Such a page already exists (MythDora is not listed yet - hint, hint!): >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DerivedDistributions >> > > Can we list it even though it uses things illegal within the US? Is not my place to answer this, but i see there listed distributions which include for example mp3 and mpeg4 players and encoders. Are those legal within the US more than MythTV? I only answered the original poster, which seems not aware about the existence of a list of deived distributions. -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 26 12:30:58 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:30:58 +0200 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> Can Someone volunteer to change the logo of Fedora in Wikipedia ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project Cheers, Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Apr 26 13:14:13 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:14:13 +0300 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > Can Someone volunteer to change the logo of Fedora in Wikipedia ? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project Why? It is an up to date version of the logo, uploaded to Wikipedia by our own Thomas Chung and this kind of usage is "fair use", see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedoralogo.png -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 26 13:17:28 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:17:28 +0200 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/06, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Why? It is an up to date version of the logo, uploaded to Wikipedia by > our own Thomas Chung and this kind of usage is "fair use", see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedoralogo.png > > -- > nicu I was talking about the red hat near Fedora Core on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Apr 26 13:36:10 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:36:10 +0300 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > I was talking about the red hat near Fedora Core on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png It was not clear from the initial message about which image you are talking about, I modified it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png Anyway, that chart could use a complete revamp, it is made in 2004 and illustrate the structure of Fedora at that time (it has no mention of Extras, Legacy). I would gladly do a new chart, but I need help of figuring which are all the entities and the relations between them. And BTW, the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project) is short (a stub) and has old information, it could use some love. -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 26 13:38:48 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:08:48 +0530 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 16:36 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > > > I was talking about the red hat near Fedora Core on > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png > > It was not clear from the initial message about which image you are > talking about, I modified it: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png > > Anyway, that chart could use a complete revamp, it is made in 2004 and > illustrate the structure of Fedora at that time (it has no mention of > Extras, Legacy). > > I would gladly do a new chart, but I need help of figuring which are all > the entities and the relations between them. Feel free to ask me off list. I am planning to write up a article on how the current governance model works. Rahul From gmaxwell at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 13:47:38 2006 From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:47:38 -0400 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On 4/26/06, Nicu Buculei wrote: > It was not clear from the initial message about which image you are > talking about, I modified it: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png > > Anyway, that chart could use a complete revamp, it is made in 2004 and > illustrate the structure of Fedora at that time (it has no mention of > Extras, Legacy). > > I would gladly do a new chart, but I need help of figuring which are all > the entities and the relations between them. Make sure you upload the next one as SVG. :) From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 20:41:40 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Nicu Buculei wrote: > And BTW, the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project) is > short (a stub) and has old information, it could use some love. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project Yes, that particular article is not particularly useful, as opposed to say, wikipedia's "Fedora Core" article which at first glance actually seemed pretty good. I think it would be bad form (since you're not supposed to Wikipedia about yourself) for, say, me to give some love to wikipedia's Fedora pages, but if, I don't know, the community members who make up Fedora Marketing wanted to do some more work in there, that wouldn't be a bad thing. :-) That "Project Organization" chart is interesting. A bit confusing, and a bit Red Hat focused for my tastes. Fedora != Red Hat I'd rather see a description of some of the sub-projects that make up the larger Fedora Project (Core, Extras, Ambassadors, Docs, and so on) and how the Fedora Project Board handles all of that. Wikipedia should be used as a summary of *facts* since it is meant as a collection of facts, and as a way of pointing people to more facts on the fp wiki, not as a place where we have to replicate all of our wiki content. That just makes stuff get out of date. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 18:33:05 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:03:05 +0530 Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? Message-ID: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Hey, How about having a secret Fedora Milk^H^H^H^H^H Handshake? This way we can identify other ambassadors, and just think about how much it will improve our social lives ;). Just think, we can go around saying: You want to try gentoo? Those guys would *die* to know our handshake. And we can teach the handshake to all the new fedora users :) Just imagine the possibilities :) Gja -- Tejas Dinkar From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 27 18:37:49 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:07:49 +0530 Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <1146163069.3802.7.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-04-28 at 00:03 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Hey, > > How about having a secret Fedora Milk^H^H^H^H^H Handshake? > > This way we can identify other ambassadors, and just think about how > much it will improve our social lives ;). If you want to improve your social lives, go out more instead of sitting in front of a computer all day ;-) . > > Just think, we can go around saying: > You want to try gentoo? Those guys would *die* to know our handshake. > > And we can teach the handshake to all the new fedora users :) > > Just imagine the possibilities :) I can smell it in the air already. Sounds like a cult and a secret society rather than a community but if you want to figure out some interesting tactics, go ahead. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 18:40:21 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: Is this what happens when Tejas comes home after a hard night of drinking? :) --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Hey, > > How about having a secret Fedora Milk^H^H^H^H^H Handshake? > > This way we can identify other ambassadors, and just think about how > much it will improve our social lives ;). > > Just think, we can go around saying: > You want to try gentoo? Those guys would *die* to know our handshake. > > And we can teach the handshake to all the new fedora users :) > > Just imagine the possibilities :) > > Gja > > -- > Tejas Dinkar > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 18:45:21 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > How about having a secret Fedora Milk^H^H^H^H^H Handshake? How do you know we don't already have one? :-) From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 18:49:22 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:19:22 +0530 Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <1146163763.3423.10.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 14:40 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Is this what happens when Tejas comes home after a hard night of drinking? > :) lol :) Gja From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 18:53:32 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:53:32 -0400 Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <604aa7910604271153x62658989l90c6a22b3f13437c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/27/06, Max Spevack wrote: > How do you know we don't already have one? :-) stop touching me... and thats NOT my hand you've been shaking. -jef"I am official sick of the phrase, energy confinement time"spaleta From kaboom at oobleck.net Thu Apr 27 21:45:50 2006 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Hey, > > How about having a secret Fedora Milk^H^H^H^H^H Handshake? I like your first idea better. Mmm, milkshake! later, chris From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 22:50:01 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:50:01 -0400 Subject: Secret Fedora Handshake? In-Reply-To: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> References: <1146162785.3423.8.camel@linuxtop.gja.in> Message-ID: <556f970a0604271550v52e7c1cctf9143b7c03d73440@mail.gmail.com> On 4/27/06, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > > Hey, > > How about having a secret Fedora Milk^H^H^H^H^H Handshake? > > As long as it isn't that thing Greg DeK does where he sticks his finger out and tickles your palm. That gives me the willies. Can it be something like the Water Buffalo Lodge? (hands up to your head like horns) "AAAHHH WHHOOO AH AH, AHHHHH WHOOO AH AH!" --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 28 11:00:27 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:00:27 +0200 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> REPORT: The presentation started at 2100 Local time (France/Paris) yesterday, it gathered fairly enough public :) #38 on #fedora-fr-meeting #35 on #fedora-fr-qa Our special guest was RahulSundaram. He stayed for two hours with us, though he was reading french posts on those channels. Yes, the duration was twice as expected., more than 3 hours :) As expected, the scheduled topics was : * 1) Overview of the Fedora Project - ChitleshGoorah * 2) The Fedora Projects - DamienDurand * 3) SELinux - AurelienBompard * 4) Fedora Core 6 - AurelienBompard * 5) (R?flexion sur l'aide francophone) - ThomasCanniot * 6) Questions and Answers with our Secret Guess. Concerning the report of this event, we (those who participated) have agreed that each of us will write a small report on his presentation. Globally, all those topics could bearly be covered in 1h30 . :) , besides some (from the public) were a bit too excited. Otherwise, everyone got enough priviledge to ask questions. * 1) Overview of the Fedora Project - ChitleshGoorah Briefly, I've introduced the Fedora Project, the Fedora Core and the Fedora Board and RedHat's participation. We tried to keep this vFUDCon interactive as far as I can, (yes, some (from debian) abused it too) . The main questions were about: * aiglx in rawhide. * no packages of xgl in Extras * mono, OIN Afterwards, DamienDurand continued with The Fedora Projects. (He will talk briefly about it later.) Then it was AurelienBompard's turn with SELinux (He will talk briefly about it later.). Before AurelienBompard continued with FC6, ThomasCanniot talked about some new ideas for the French participation to the Fedora Project He will talk briefly about it later.). At that time it was too late for RahulSundaram, we continued Questions and Answers without him. In the end, I've described the status of Kadischi and an eventual Official Fedora Livecd in the near future. Best thing in the end, was : [23:59:21] c'est quand la prochain fudcon ? When will be the next FUDCon ? its vFUDCon :) The logs files are uploaded to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/fr_FR/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France Cheers, Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From thomas.canniot at laposte.net Fri Apr 28 13:47:00 2006 From: thomas.canniot at laposte.net (Thomas Canniot) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:47:00 +0200 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1146232021.24975.40.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Hello, here is the report for my presentation, Chitlesh Goorah has almost said everything about the organization of the event. 5) How to help the Fedora Project as a non-English speaker? This short presentation was a mean to introduce a new section in the Forum, which will allows member to post bug reports directly on our Forum, in French. Then an ambassador will translate the bug report and add it to the official Bugzilla. Moreover, another section will be opened soon to allow user to post their packages, which will be verified and submitted to Extras. We had many questions during the vFUDCon before my presentation asking about such features for our forum. We had good feedbacks about this little revolution, people welcome it. We have now to help them reporting bugs *properly*. I would like to thank all the other involved ambassadors for their help and very good work. Yesterday evening was a great day for the French Community in France. We can be proud of us. :) -- Thomas Canniot http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Apr 28 14:13:33 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:13:33 +0300 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 16:36 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fedora_project_organization.png >> >> I would gladly do a new chart, but I need help of figuring which are all >> the entities and the relations between them. > > Feel free to ask me off list. I am planning to write up a article on how > the current governance model works. Based on the ASCII-art provided by Rahul i did this diagram representing the Fedora governance: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/governance_diagram.svg Then modified it myself in something i think is more useful from an end-user point of view: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/fedora_diagram.svg Do you think it is correct/useful/politically correct enough? -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Apr 28 14:39:40 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Do you think it is correct/useful/politically correct enough? Nicu, Thanks for working on this! I think what you've got is pretty close. Ambassadors is an official Fedora Project -- I'm not really sure why you have it off to the side. And on a simply artistic view, I *personally* find that the checkered background makes it very hard to read. I'd like to see it with just a plain white background, so we can have a comparison. This is a *huge* improvement from the image that's currently up there on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Apr 28 15:04:26 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:04:26 +0300 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> Max Spevack wrote: > > Thanks for working on this! I think what you've got is pretty close. > Ambassadors is an official Fedora Project -- I'm not really sure why you > have it off to the side. I got tricked by Thunderbird's word wraping at 72 columns in the ASCII art :p > And on a simply artistic view, I *personally* find that the checkered > background makes it very hard to read. I'd like to see it with just a > plain white background, so we can have a comparison. Here is it: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/governance_diagram_white.svg http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/fedora_diagram_white.svg > This is a *huge* improvement from the image that's currently up there on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project > > --Max > -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 28 15:34:46 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <20060428153446.38648.qmail@web34103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Then modified it myself in something i think is more useful from an > end-user point of view: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/fedora_diagram.svg > Do you think it is correct/useful/politically correct enough? I'm not with Red Hat or the Fedora Foundation, but I think this is a most excellent diagram! I like the color and I think the "Fedora Ambassadors" are in the correct place, as we are not directly and technically affecting the releases themselves. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Americans don't get upset because citizens in some foreign nations can burn the American flag -- Americans get upset because citizens in those same nations can't burn their own From gauret at free.fr Fri Apr 28 15:27:45 2006 From: gauret at free.fr (Aurelien Bompard) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:27:45 +0200 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> <1146232021.24975.40.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Message-ID: Hello, I covered two topics : SELinux and Fedora Core 6. SELinux ------- I explained quickly what SELinux is about, how it is an additional security layer to the kernel. I talked about strict vs targeted, and how to switch to enforcing/permissive/disabled. I told about setenforce to test if SELinux can be the cause of a malfunction. Concerning the workings of SELinux, I only explained the use of the "type" property (file_contexts), and I used an example of a compromised FTP server to show that is will only do what it supposed to do, even compromised. Apparently people liked the example, some event said it was the first time they understood SELinux (which is quite gratifying :) ) I had questions about how to make changes to the policy : one user didn't know about the SELinux tab in system-config-securitylevel, and another wanted to let apache listed to other ports than 80. Someone asked if it is possible to manage SELinux policies according to groups, which forced me to talk about MLS/MCS :) So in the end, people were interested, and looked like they understood. Fedora Core 6 ------------- I basically took the points in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6Future and explained what was said at FUDCon Boston. I had questions about the future Yum applet, about a potentially new init system, and about hardware support (for suspend/resume) There were requests for a 1 or 2 CD install (yet again) I think it went pretty good, except in the end when people used the questions channel for trolling and commenting the main channel. People started asking generic questions right after the start, so for future vFudCons, it may be a good idea to collect generic questions 1 or 2 days before the event, and to answer them at the beginning. Also, maybe it's just us frenchmen who don't understand the word discipline, but we need to prevent the questions channel from becoming a troll nest. People (especially on IRC) need to comment what's going on and screem "bullsh!t" from time to time, so we can open (yet) another channel for free comments. And the non-presenting ambassadors can redirect trolls to this channel. And the main channel can be made read-only except for the ambassadors. That could work, we'll see next time :) In the end, we're all pretty satisfied with how things went, especially since it's our first. Aur?lien -- http://aurelien.bompard.org ~~~~ Jabber : abompard at jabber.fr If one keeps trying, one successes eventually. Therefore, the more one fails, the closer one is to success. -- Shadok moto. From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Fri Apr 28 16:00:11 2006 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:00:11 -0700 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1146240011.3143.18.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2006-04-28 at 18:04 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > And on a simply artistic view, I *personally* find that the checkered > > background makes it very hard to read. I'd like to see it with just a > > plain white background, so we can have a comparison. > > Here is it: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/governance_diagram_white.svg > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/fedora_diagram_white.svg Should RHEL be below Fedora Core/Extras or a separate entity on the same level? It seems that RHEL and Fedora Linux influence each other rather than RHEL being a more polished version of Fedora. With RHEL underneath Fedora, it seems to support the (untrue) idea that Fedora is the beta version of RHEL. Maybe a bi-directional arrow connecting the two at the same level would indicate their relationship better. Personally, I think the color makes things clearer IFF the intention is to emphasis the differences between Red Hat and Community volunteers. I don't know that that's the message we want to project, though. It seems like the direction the Project is taking is that individuals within Red Hat are being paid to work on Fedora and promote things that make it a good investment for Red Hat rather than a Red Hat entity is half of the decision making process. I could be wrong on that, though. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tchung at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 28 16:47:46 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:47:46 -0700 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604280947q4c6d6a5fj2898df8c8920a426@mail.gmail.com> On 4/28/06, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > > > Thanks for working on this! I think what you've got is pretty close. > > Ambassadors is an official Fedora Project -- I'm not really sure why you > > have it off to the side. > > I got tricked by Thunderbird's word wraping at 72 columns in the ASCII > art :p > > > And on a simply artistic view, I *personally* find that the checkered > > background makes it very hard to read. I'd like to see it with just a > > plain white background, so we can have a comparison. > > Here is it: > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/governance_diagram_white.svg > http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/fedora_diagram_white.svg > > > This is a *huge* improvement from the image that's currently up there on > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project > > > > --Max > > > > > -- > nicu > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro Hi Nicu, He meant white *background* not white art elements. :) -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From tchung at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 28 16:52:02 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:52:02 -0700 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604280952q6b220c1ap3bc428b01f1a2d29@mail.gmail.com> On 4/28/06, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > REPORT: > > The presentation started at 2100 Local time (France/Paris) yesterday, > it gathered fairly enough public :) > > #38 on #fedora-fr-meeting > #35 on #fedora-fr-qa > > Our special guest was RahulSundaram. He stayed for two hours with us, > though he was reading french posts on those channels. > > Yes, the duration was twice as expected., more than 3 hours :) > > As expected, the scheduled topics was : > * 1) Overview of the Fedora Project - ChitleshGoorah > * 2) The Fedora Projects - DamienDurand > * 3) SELinux - AurelienBompard > * 4) Fedora Core 6 - AurelienBompard > * 5) (R?flexion sur l'aide francophone) - ThomasCanniot > * 6) Questions and Answers with our Secret Guess. > > Concerning the report of this event, we (those who participated) have > agreed that each of us will write a small report on his presentation. Great report! Please add a link of the report to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 28 17:59:14 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:59:14 +0200 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604280952q6b220c1ap3bc428b01f1a2d29@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> <369bce3b0604280952q6b220c1ap3bc428b01f1a2d29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604281059l4610f9d1s29549cce1720ac24@mail.gmail.com> On 4/28/06, Thomas Chung wrote: > Great report! > Please add a link of the report to > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France > Regards, Once DamienDurand had his report sent, ill paste the full report on the wiki. By the way, William too was with us, but unfortunately not till the end. :( -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From gerold at lugd.org Fri Apr 28 21:17:48 2006 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:17:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604280947q4c6d6a5fj2898df8c8920a426@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> <369bce3b0604280947q4c6d6a5fj2898df8c8920a426@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5014.80.148.62.26.1146259068.squirrel@www.gbc.net> Thomas Chung wrote: > Hi Nicu, > He meant white *background* not white art elements. :) > -- ^^ and ... ... if we get these outstanding schemes until sunday with a "fedora-blue"-background; you'll find them also at the German Linuxtag in Wiesbaden if we may use them :-) starting May, 3rd until May, 6th 2006 Cheers Gerold From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Apr 28 22:15:40 2006 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] A call for input from directory server experts ... Message-ID: <20060428221540.57218.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm helping head up development of a broad set real-world objectives that covers Linux-based directory services. To this date, the early focus had only looked at OpenLDAP, prior to the FDS project's existence. Being a longer-term Netscape Directory Server administrator myself (and thank God that Red Hat bought it), I would like to change that by ensuring the objectives reflect "real-world" directory service capabilities in FDS as well as OpenLDAP. So I'm looking for peer experts who have deployed NsDS/RHDS/FDS in the past, ideally with OpenLDAP (or other, general LDAP capabilities of another directory service) experience as well, to help build a set of objectives. It's also welcome to FDS developers as well -- although if you are a Red Hat employee, I understand there might be a "conflict of interest" since Red Hat offers certification/training in its RHCA program. These objectives would cover, in real-world tasks, what an enterprise Linux administrator should know about in deploying and maintaining LDAP (FDS, OpenLDAP, etc...) in an enterprise environment. If anything, it's a good opportunity to expose FDS to many people that assume OpenLDAP is the only option out there. And ensure it in a broad, vendor-neutral, peer-professional organization. If you are interested, please contact me _off-list_. -- Bryan J. Smith, LPIC-2, RHCE -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Americans don't get upset because citizens in some foreign nations can burn the American flag -- Americans get upset because citizens in those same nations can't burn their own From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Apr 28 23:29:10 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:29:10 +0300 Subject: fedora logo on wikipedia In-Reply-To: <5014.80.148.62.26.1146259068.squirrel@www.gbc.net> References: <13dbfe4f0604260530x57e16e3bme76875d2585f3354@mail.gmail.com> <444F7225.7080401@nicubunu.ro> <13dbfe4f0604260617r23155013h31d3b7a222389ba2@mail.gmail.com> <444F774A.3090401@nicubunu.ro> <1146058728.11383.44.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <4452230D.8010503@nicubunu.ro> <44522EFA.2030708@nicubunu.ro> <369bce3b0604280947q4c6d6a5fj2898df8c8920a426@mail.gmail.com> <5014.80.148.62.26.1146259068.squirrel@www.gbc.net> Message-ID: <4452A546.9070305@nicubunu.ro> Gerold Kassube wrote: > Thomas Chung wrote: >> Hi Nicu, >> He meant white *background* not white art elements. :) Duh! The background was transparent and it was up to the viewer how to display transparency. Firefox and Inkscape would display it as white, EOG as you set it, checkered by default. > ^^ > and ... > ... if we get these outstanding schemes until sunday with a > "fedora-blue"-background; you'll find them also at the German Linuxtag in > Wiesbaden if we may use them :-) starting May, 3rd until May, 6th 2006 The original images are updated with a light blue background, adjust as you like with Inkscape: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/governance_diagram_white.svg http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork/fedora_diagram_white.svg From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 29 11:22:01 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 13:22:01 +0200 Subject: vFUDCon: virtual FUDCon In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604281059l4610f9d1s29549cce1720ac24@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604240819g2aaa9d1cn4f4a2b054596cbc3@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604241014n1ce8bb1ek2dc8c7a4802bac53@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604280400u6c6b05t7016d72b8d74670b@mail.gmail.com> <369bce3b0604280952q6b220c1ap3bc428b01f1a2d29@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0604281059l4610f9d1s29549cce1720ac24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604290422i7d8e3395v835494c21e971789@mail.gmail.com> The Report can be found here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France along with a feedback :) From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Sat Apr 29 18:01:10 2006 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 14:01:10 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-freemedia-list] REQUEST: INDIA - ZEESHAN CHAWDHARY In-Reply-To: <781b15300604250926r480b6dcfpb29722d1cf56eca3@mail.gmail.com> References: <444E11ED.4080808@webpath.net> <781b15300604250926r480b6dcfpb29722d1cf56eca3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4453A9E6.8010604@webpath.net> Hello, Zeeshan. First let me apologize for taking so long to respond to your email. It's not that I had forgotten, I just didn't know what to say. I didn't want to turn down an offer to help, but I didn't know how to accept your gracious offer. Again, so sorry for the delay, but I think I have something... Tell me what you think. If you browse to this page [link 1 below], you'll see there are a lot of Free Media [2] request still waiting to be filled. One way to get people off the waiting list and Fedora Core 5 discs out, is the same way you'll get yours - through Sponsored Media [3] The more sponsors we can get, the more free media requests can be filled in a timely manner. The Fedora Ambassadors and myself would love it if you could help spread the word about Sponsored Media. Then as we get more sponsors then we have Free Media requests, I may call on you to spread the word about Free Media. Thank you again for your Free Media request and your generosity to help. Please feel free to email me with any questions you may have. Karlie Robinson Owner, Webpath Technologies On the Web at: http://webpath.net http://on-disk.com http://portal.on-disk.com [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/FC5DVD/April?action=show [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/SponsoredMedia zeeshan chawdhar wrote: > Thanks for the DVD. > Keep up the good work. > I am a Linux Addict if in future, I can be of any help to you or your > company, please let me know. > > > Thanks and Regards. > Zeeshan Chawdhary. From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 30 09:39:32 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:39:32 +0200 Subject: Two words about the vfudcon Message-ID: Just two words about this vfudcon, i've presented and explained how to join different fedora projects. The following points were approached : * Fedora ambassador * Fedora triage * Fedora Extras * Fedra arts * Fedora docs * Fedora Website * Fedora legacy The explanation was simple, for each projects: * 1) What the goal of each project is * 2) How to join the project * 3) Answer about each questions Personally, i think that time too court, besides that, the vfudon is a success ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 14:42:48 2006 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:42:48 -0400 Subject: Two words about the vfudcon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f617d270604300742x5cb86518w4639734109aa12e7@mail.gmail.com> This is a great initiative, thank you all who was involved! Just make sure that at least a short report is posted on the wiki in English ;) Cheers, a On 4/30/06, Damien Durand wrote: > Just two words about this vfudcon, i've presented and explained how to join > different fedora projects. > > The following points were approached : > > * Fedora ambassador > * Fedora triage > * Fedora Extras > * Fedra arts > * Fedora docs > * Fedora Website > * Fedora legacy > > The explanation was simple, for each projects: > > * 1) What the goal of each project is > * 2) How to join the project > * 3) Answer about each questions > > Personally, i think that time too court, besides that, the vfudon is a > success ;-) > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Check out the new content on Fedora Project page! http://fedoraproject.org From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 30 15:22:23 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 17:22:23 +0200 Subject: Two words about the vfudcon In-Reply-To: <7f617d270604300742x5cb86518w4639734109aa12e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270604300742x5cb86518w4639734109aa12e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604300822gde719d2i5cafbf53b80e93ca@mail.gmail.com> On 4/30/06, Alex Maier wrote: > This is a great initiative, thank you all who was involved! > > Just make sure that at least a short report is posted on the wiki in English ;) > > Cheers, > a Hello, Already on the wiki :) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France Logs : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/fr_FR/FedoraEvents/vFUDCon/01France Cheers, Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com