From hisham.imam at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 00:32:29 2007 From: hisham.imam at gmail.com (Hisham Abdel-Magid) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 03:32:29 +0300 Subject: Fedora Project Sign for GITEX Demo Pod In-Reply-To: <200707301408.55252.simon@simline.de> References: <1954624949-1185794647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-909846425-@bxe116.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <200707301408.55252.simon@simline.de> Message-ID: <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> how does it look now? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexExampleSign HishamAbdelMagid -- Eng. Hisham Isam M. Abdel-Magid Fedora Ambassador in Sudan, Head of Department in charge, Dept. of Shelter & Physical Development (DSPD) Institute for Technological Research (ITR) National Center for Research (NCR) Ministry of Science and Technology (MOST) P.O.Box 2404 Khartoum Sudan Mobile: +249 122 007 122 E.mail: himam at fedoraproject.org wiki: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HishamAbdelMagid -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tchung at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 1 17:38:53 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:38:53 -0700 Subject: Fedora Project Sign for GITEX Demo Pod In-Reply-To: <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> References: <1954624949-1185794647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-909846425-@bxe116.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <200707301408.55252.simon@simline.de> <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0708011038o6dbd5ed7n13eed5c44744bb95@mail.gmail.com> On 7/31/07, Hisham Abdel-Magid wrote: > > how does it look now? > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexExampleSign > > HishamAbdelMagid FYI, See "Fedora Project - GITEX 2007 Sign and Brochure Design" at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From jmbabich at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 20:19:13 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:19:13 +0300 Subject: Fedora Project Sign for GITEX Demo Pod In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0708011038o6dbd5ed7n13eed5c44744bb95@mail.gmail.com> References: <1954624949-1185794647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-909846425-@bxe116.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <200707301408.55252.simon@simline.de> <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> <369bce3b0708011038o6dbd5ed7n13eed5c44744bb95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0708011319k340df1aexf31707e9b8ddbf48@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Thomas Chung wrote: > On 7/31/07, Hisham Abdel-Magid wrote: > > > > how does it look now? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexExampleSign > > > > HishamAbdelMagid > > FYI, See "Fedora Project - GITEX 2007 Sign and Brochure Design" at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX > Hisham: I think it looks fantastic - this is definitely the final version. Thomas: Thanks for the redirect. I decided to put it on the main page, now that it's finalized. John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 1 20:23:49 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:53:49 +0530 Subject: Fedora Project Sign for GITEX Demo Pod In-Reply-To: <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> References: <1954624949-1185794647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-909846425-@bxe116.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <200707301408.55252.simon@simline.de> <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B0EBD5.7050406@fedoraproject.org> Hisham Abdel-Magid wrote: > > how does it look now? > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexExampleSign > > HishamAbdelMagid > Please upload the source images to the event page. If they are SVG files they can be adopted easily for other events. Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Thu Aug 2 00:26:37 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:26:37 +0800 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops Message-ID: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> Interesting and disappointing that both Dell and Acer release Ubuntu laptops. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=41336 I would have hoped Fedora would get more of a look in. Cheers, Marc From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 2 02:37:13 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:07:13 +0530 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops In-Reply-To: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> References: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> Message-ID: <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Interesting and disappointing that both Dell and Acer release Ubuntu > laptops. > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=41336 > > I would have hoped Fedora would gehavet more of a look in. Unlikely. OEM's usually need a commercially supported product with less moving parts and longer lifecycle which is why Dell ships RHEL, SLES and Ubuntu (LTS) and not Fedora or even regular Ubuntu versions. Other vendors resell these under various names too. System76 for example. I haven't checked what Acer is doing here but I also came across this http://osnews.com/story.php/18367/Acer-No-UK-Demand-for-Linux-Laptops A growing Linux market is nevertheless good for all of us if they don't start putting in proprietary wedges in the name of getting things to work. While you can be slightly unhappy about the details (my chocolate wrapper in brown instead of blue), it is still important that we be supportive of these kind of efforts. Rahul From hisham.imam at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 05:44:05 2007 From: hisham.imam at gmail.com (Hisham Abdel-Magid) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:44:05 +0300 Subject: Fedora Project Sign for GITEX Demo Pod In-Reply-To: <46B0EBD5.7050406@fedoraproject.org> References: <1954624949-1185794647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-909846425-@bxe116.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <200707301408.55252.simon@simline.de> <59e007ed0707311732x5caab525jc240876b37f5a72@mail.gmail.com> <46B0EBD5.7050406@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <59e007ed0708012244j37706ab1o8b79d6e9af862d4e@mail.gmail.com> Source background (with no text) is uploaded as an attachment in: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX?action=AttachFile regards hisham On 8/1/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hisham Abdel-Magid wrote: > > > > how does it look now? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexExampleSign > > > > HishamAbdelMagid > > > > Please upload the source images to the event page. If they are SVG files > they can be adopted easily for other events. > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From webpath at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 2 14:13:33 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:13:33 -0400 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops In-Reply-To: <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B1E68D.9010600@fedoraproject.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > While you can be slightly unhappy about the details (my chocolate wrapper in brown instead of blue), it is still important that we be supportive of these kind of efforts. +1 For the longest time it's always been Lin vs Win in our thinking when marketing Fedora. I would think that now's a good time to begin tailoring our message a bit to play up the GNU/Linux to those just venturing away from Windows via Dell and now Acer. The opportunity that presents itself is Infinite Choice. If we stick with the candy analogy, there's more to life than just chocolate and we can inform new Linux users that they can behave like a kid in a candy shop. There's White Chocolate, Dark Chocolate, With Nuts etc. Then there's everything else. Caramels, Lolly Pops... All they have to do is figure out what suits their taste. With a live disc, they can sample any one they like without commitment. I feel that the greater good is done by getting people to try Linux in whatever form it may take. While for some that may not be Fedora, the point is to get enough people using Linux and let the people sort out which is their favorite. Without a doubt a certain percentage will find their way to Fedora. ~Karlie From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 2 15:07:25 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:07:25 -0400 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops In-Reply-To: <46B1E68D.9010600@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> <46B1E68D.9010600@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1186067245.3554.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 10:13 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > I feel that the greater good is done by getting people to try Linux in > whatever form it may take. People are getting out, or at least trying to get out, from under the serious risk of abandonware/hostageware and what I like to call "vendor lock-out" (not merely just "vendor lock-in" in the case of Microsoft ;-). That is always a Good Thing(TM). Not to tangent, but there is a greater, sound concept going on here. Let us not forget that some consumers, especially those tied to the "superstore model" of "upgrade now, you must" try Linux only to go back to Windows because of various issues, not due to Linux itself. Because of this, we should also recognize and promote Freedomware and, at a minimum, Standardware, on Windows as well. For when the user does finally switch over to Linux, it will be far less painful because the risk to their documents and their application requirements have now been mitigated. > While for some that may not be Fedora, the point is to get enough people > using Linux and let the people sort out which is their favorite. Without > a doubt a certain percentage will find their way to Fedora. For any new user, I always say "their favorite" should be the distro where they will receive the most support for what they are doing. In a LUG or other community, I recommend finding someone who uses the same applications to do the same things as they do, and run their distro. Not because it's the best distro, but because they will receive the best support. In the case of pre-installed Linux, whatever the vendor supports should be their choice. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From webpath at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 2 15:26:50 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:26:50 -0400 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops In-Reply-To: <1186067245.3554.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> <46B1E68D.9010600@fedoraproject.org> <1186067245.3554.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B1F7BA.2030208@fedoraproject.org> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > we should also recognize and promote Freedomware and, at a > minimum, Standardware, on Windows as well. For when the user does > finally switch over to Linux, it will be far less painful because the > risk to their documents and their application requirements have now been > mitigated. > [snip] > For any new user, I always say "their favorite" should be the distro > where they will receive the most support for what they are doing. We're on the same page as you. You may want to check out a couple of short articles we've written for our customer base at "Replacement Windows" (our internal play on words)- http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=Windows_Replacements SOHO - http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=SOHO And yes, I'll admit that Fedora isn't in our Replacements guide because for our average customer, Fedora is a little more ooomph than they need for their first foray into Linux. We've found that 'baby steps' are more helpful for first time users - especially if they are a very basic computer user. It's simple Psychology where if the first attempts are easy, they are more likely to try other things. As they take control over the basic functions, they gain confidence to try other things. That's when the branch out and begin trying more distros. That's the point they find Fedora. The users that go directly to Fedora (at least the ones I talk with) for a first time out are those who are already advanced Windows users. They're looking to build their first server or wanting to explore Fedora to see if they'll have a shot at RH certifications for promotions at work. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 2 15:39:30 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:39:30 -0400 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops -- might want to include CinePaint ... In-Reply-To: <46B1F7BA.2030208@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> <46B1E68D.9010600@fedoraproject.org> <1186067245.3554.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B1F7BA.2030208@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1186069170.3554.15.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:26 -0400, Karlie Robinson wrote: > We're on the same page as you. I figured as such, just wanted to [re-]point it out. > You may want to check out a couple of > short articles we've written for our customer base at > "Replacement Windows" (our internal play on words)- > http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=Windows_Replacements > SOHO - http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=SOHO Also don't forget to mention CinePaint (fka FilmGIMP) along with The GIMP. It does 16-bit/channel color (whereas The GIMP only does 8-bit), and it's what you want to use for most RAW image editing. That can save hundreds upon hundreds of dollars. I'm a complete and absolute noob to photography. But I've found the included capabilities of CinePaint to be quite adequate. It even has a solid HDR plug-in. CinePaint plus UFRaw (for importing/converting) my 12-bit color PEF (Pentax RAW) shots from my Pentax K100D (a $300+ uber-entry level dSLR) and $50-250 el'cheapo polycarbon lenses. I'm not even an amateur, I'm a novice, but CinePaint gets the job done well for myself. I'm going to try to take a nice bracket set of Pittsburgh the weekend and use CinePaint to show off what you can do with an el'cheapo dSLR and freedomware for under $500 in hardware. I'll blog it when I have a chance. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 18:06:51 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:06:51 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu Message-ID: How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1 If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston Globe, and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for you? http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and more regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find out how to download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or Installation DVD is also posted. It is very important to get MORE exposure so Ubuntu will want to compete on that level too. Save Our Fedora From Ubuntu!!! Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Thu Aug 2 18:12:31 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:12:31 +0200 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1 > > If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston > Globe, and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for > you? http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and > more regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find > out how to download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or > Installation DVD is also posted. It is very important to get MORE > exposure so Ubuntu will want to compete on that level too. Save Our > Fedora From Ubuntu!!! > > Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com > It's not about who gets the bigger userbase. It's not about who gets the most users off Windows. It's not about who gets the most exposure. And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From rstaaf at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 2 18:34:18 2007 From: rstaaf at bellsouth.net (rstaaf at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:34:18 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu Message-ID: <20070802183418.KJAV10546.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > From: "Markus McLaughlin" > How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1 > > If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston Globe, > and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for you? > http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and more > regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find out how to > download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or Installation DVD is also > posted. It is very important to get MORE exposure so Ubuntu will want to > compete on that level too. Save Our Fedora From Ubuntu!!! > > Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com > Huh??? Why do we need to "take on Ubuntu"??? Linux is Linux and what is good for Ubuntu is good for Fedora and other distros. Fedora and Ubuntu are not even targeted at the same users. Ubuntu is going after the new Linux user with little or no Linux experience while Fedora is targeted towards developers, enthusiasts, the more experienced user. That is not to say a beginner could not pick it up but, why make things harder on a newbie by encouraging them to try and advanced distro? Frankly I don't want to see Ubuntu users here until they have are pretty comfortable with Ubuntu first. I think Fedora loses more potential users that try it and wind up frustrated because they lack the experience to deal with the issues that come up with a bleeding edge distro. If you don't believe me here is an FAQ from RedHat regarding their target user for Fedora... http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_61_1139.shtm "The Fedora Project is a Red-Hat-sponsored and community-supported open source project geared toward developers and highly technical enthusiasts using Linux in non-critical environments. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products and the open source code base. The goal of the Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free software." -------------- next part -------------- -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: reply URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 2 18:46:57 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <279230.82746.qm@web32912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1 > ... cut ... > It is very important to get MORE exposure so Ubuntu will > want to compete on that level too. As I've stated before ... I left the commerceware, let alone hostageware, world because of stuff like this. I really don't care for it in the freedomware world. ;) There is a difference between "marketing and expanding" the Fedora user base and marketing "against" software. Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > It's not about who gets the bigger userbase. > It's not about who gets the most users off Windows. > It's not about who gets the most exposure. Oh so true. Markus McLaughlin wrote: > Save Our Fedora From Ubuntu!!! Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either. I honestly don't think Mr. McLaughlin just realizes what he said (regardless of whether it is true or not). Furthermore, clearly playing devil's advocate, there is no reason to "save" any distro against another. Distros will be adopted or not adopted on their merits and/or usefulness for users and organizations. I use Fedora. I use Gentoo. I use Xubuntu. Not losing any sleep over any distro that needs "saving" or marketing "against" any other. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 2 19:01:05 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:31:05 +0530 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20070802183418.KJAV10546.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20070802183418.KJAV10546.ibm62aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <46B229F1.30906@fedoraproject.org> rstaaf at bellsouth.net wrote: > If you don't believe me here is an FAQ from RedHat regarding their target user for Fedora... > > http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_61_1139.shtm Not disagreeing with the general response but the Kbase FAQ's were written during project launch and hasn't changed while the project has been revamped quite a bit. It still refers to old fedora.redhat.com and has references to "Fedora Core" in multiple FAQ's. I have been wanting clean up the information for a few days now after a recent search I did on the Red Hat site. So these are going to get updated to reflect the current status more accurately soon. Rahul From marketing-list at fedoralinks.org Thu Aug 2 18:39:58 2007 From: marketing-list at fedoralinks.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:39:58 -0500 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B224FE.6080205@fedoralinks.org> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1 > > If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston > Globe, and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for > you? http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and > more regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find > out how to download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or > Installation DVD is also posted. It is very important to get MORE > exposure so Ubuntu will want to compete on that level too. Save Our > Fedora From Ubuntu!!! > > Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com > Mark, As I tried to explain to you on IRC I am of the opinion that you are going about this wrong. Robert 'Bob' Jensen From jmbabich at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 21:51:27 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 00:51:27 +0300 Subject: Update on Fedora at GITEX (37 days to go) Message-ID: <9d2c731f0708021451j5ed1f72ai891f566c0bf7dd58@mail.gmail.com> Just a quick update on preparations for GITEX 2007: Pre-Event News * Volunteers to man the booth are desperately needed. This is a great opportunity to promote Fedora 7, meet lots of IT pros (and future employers?), and, maybe, even play with the OLPC XO laptop. * Support from Red Hat Europe and OpenNet MEA has been excellent. Thanks! * We have a demo pod, courtesy of Red Hat * We have an excellent design for a poster and flyer, in English and Arabic. Terrific job! * We now have 380 Fedora 7 DVDs Accommodation * Booking rooms for this event are a challenge. I'm staying with a friend. Booth * Red Hat Europe has confirmed we can use a portion of their booth space. * The Fedora Project will have a purpose-built demo pod. * Booth assignment is Stand A6-11 in Hall 6 - See exhibition hall floor layout. Booth program * Fedora 7 Demo Laptop with all the latest video effects * Fedora 7 Bootable USB demo and possible installations for daring individuals * Fedora 7 DVDs (380 shipped) * Fedora 7 Live CDs (open to suggestions on GNOME / KDE / i386 / x86_64 ratios) * One Laptop Per Child demo laptop (Confirmed) Layout * A dedicated demo pod in the booth with Red Hat (Thank you, RH), OLPC XO laptop demo, and two Red Hat partners Fedora Project - GITEX 2007 Sign and Brochure Design * Red Hat is graciously providing a demo pod for Fedora and we have been asked to provide a layout for a sign for the demo pod consisting of a large title and 3-4 major points. * The artwork has been realized by Hisham Abdel-Magid, based on Fedora Art Team themes and design. Thanks, Hisham! See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX for details. John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From tchung at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 2 23:40:35 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:40:35 -0700 Subject: Update on Fedora at GITEX (37 days to go) In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0708021451j5ed1f72ai891f566c0bf7dd58@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0708021451j5ed1f72ai891f566c0bf7dd58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0708021640x6f06b403n8fa11b6d973dfc62@mail.gmail.com> On 8/2/07, John Babich wrote: > Just a quick update on preparations for GITEX 2007: > > Pre-Event News > > * Volunteers to man the booth are desperately needed. This is a > great opportunity to promote Fedora 7, meet lots of IT pros (and > future employers?), and, maybe, even play with the OLPC XO laptop. > * Support from Red Hat Europe and OpenNet MEA has been excellent. Thanks! > * We have a demo pod, courtesy of Red Hat > * We have an excellent design for a poster and flyer, in English > and Arabic. Terrific job! > * We now have 380 Fedora 7 DVDs > > Accommodation > > * Booking rooms for this event are a challenge. I'm staying with a friend. > > Booth > > * Red Hat Europe has confirmed we can use a portion of their booth space. > * The Fedora Project will have a purpose-built demo pod. > * Booth assignment is Stand A6-11 in Hall 6 - See exhibition hall > floor layout. > > Booth program > > * Fedora 7 Demo Laptop with all the latest video effects > * Fedora 7 Bootable USB demo and possible installations for daring > individuals > * Fedora 7 DVDs (380 shipped) > * Fedora 7 Live CDs (open to suggestions on GNOME / KDE / i386 / > x86_64 ratios) > * One Laptop Per Child demo laptop (Confirmed) > > Layout > > * A dedicated demo pod in the booth with Red Hat (Thank you, RH), > OLPC XO laptop demo, and two Red Hat partners > > Fedora Project - GITEX 2007 Sign and Brochure Design > > * Red Hat is graciously providing a demo pod for Fedora and we > have been asked to provide a layout for a sign for the demo pod > consisting of a large title and 3-4 major points. > * The artwork has been realized by Hisham Abdel-Magid, based on > Fedora Art Team themes and design. Thanks, Hisham! > > See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX for details. > > John Babich > Volunteer, Fedora Project Thank you for the great progress report! It's coming along really good. :) Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Aug 3 06:42:55 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:42:55 +0300 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B2CE6F.2030602@nicubunu.ro> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1 I am also somewhat feed-up with Ubuntu fanboys on a lot of forums and the web filled with brown screenshots. But my may to deal with it is to show how useful is Fedora for *me* and how proud I am in using it. I put online *a lot* of content (like http://howto.nicubunu.ro/) created using Fedora and showing a Fedora look and feel as close as possible to the default. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 3 06:51:57 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 02:51:57 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <46B2CE6F.2030602@nicubunu.ro> References: <46B2CE6F.2030602@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1186123917.3571.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:42 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > I am also somewhat feed-up with Ubuntu fanboys on a lot of forums and > the web filled with brown screenshots. Every distro has its fanboys, and many not only go overboard, but start stating technical specifics that are just dead wrong. There's nothing more frustrating than trying to explain to an ignorant "source build system" distro fanboy the difference between ISA extensions and ISA optimizations when it comes to performance. And I'm a huge fan of that "source build system" distro myself (and even share publication credits with its creator). The key is to ignore them. Every distro has them, even Fedora. Heck, one day they praise you, the next day they criticize you. I'd just rather they not be so "manic-depressive" in the first place. ;) > But my may to deal with it is to show how useful is Fedora for *me* and > how proud I am in using it. I put online *a lot* of content (like > http://howto.nicubunu.ro/) created using Fedora and showing a Fedora > look and feel as close as possible to the default. Helping others work and get things done is the key. Everything else is subjective marketing. As I mentioned before, I've had enough of that in the commerceware and hostageware world. ;) Glad to see you are putting some things down on how you work. That's always a great thing. In fact, and more selfishly, do you have anything on RAW conversion tools (DCRAW/UFRAW), CinePaint and its HDR plug-in? ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Aug 3 06:57:18 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:57:18 +0300 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1186123917.3571.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B2CE6F.2030602@nicubunu.ro> <1186123917.3571.5.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B2D1CE.2020807@nicubunu.ro> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > Glad to see you are putting some things down on how you work. That's > always a great thing. In fact, and more selfishly, do you have anything > on RAW conversion tools (DCRAW/UFRAW), CinePaint and its HDR > plug-in? ;) Sorry, no ;) I still have to buy myself a DSLR, it was on the agenda but I postponed it, so I am quite a newbie in that area. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 07:28:19 2007 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:28:19 +0200 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> On 8/2/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > It's not about who gets the bigger userbase. > It's not about who gets the most users off Windows. > It's not about who gets the most exposure. > And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either. Hello, I tend to agree with Jeroen van Meeuwen's words. However even some Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this. Take for example, during the last European events, Fedora was open for talks with Centos and OpenSuse and do have good relations with them. In the upcoming events, I'm sure it will still be like that. As for fedora marketing, many consider fedora as a distribution like others and tend to ignore * what fedora project really is * what are the goals of fedora project * and what it produces and what are the products. Fedora has some beauties inside that aren't well publicized, e.g Fedora Directory Server, Xen, OLPC, aiglx, Fedora Artwork (whose status is just getting better and better), the idea behind smolt, revisor, a community, TRANSPARENCY (does anyone else have it, without internal fights?? ) ... the list goes on !!! All these to say, that if you really understand the Fedora Project, you will see there is no other reasons to compete directly with other distributions. I like the idea of spreading the word about fedora in the daily life of all humans. Because I personally don't like windows users to consider ubuntu = linux, as that would underrate fedora contributors' contribution. But direct competition (which is good or which is bad) isn't the right way. regards, Chitlesh -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From karlthered2 at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 08:43:27 2007 From: karlthered2 at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H._Gu=E9mar?=) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:43:27 +0200 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with Chitlesh, we should not start a "distro war" neither ignoring people and doing our stuff apart. Our goal is not to get the biggest user base (well, that doesn't mean getting a smaller user base too ;-) ) but to push forward the free software thing and open contents. We should find new ways to advertize Fedora Project for the following reasons: * explain what Fedora Project is and aims at. Our goal is not to overthrow Microsoft or anyone else, but to open up the space for free software and open contents. * share our vision of free software. People still does not understand why Fedora/Linux does not provide proprietary drivers or patented stuff. * welcome new members (and not users) in our community. * help our projects to succeed. That would suck if something as useful for everyone such as Smolt failed because people are unaware of it or misunderstood Fedora Project. * to give back Fedora Project what is Fedora Project. About fanboys, just ignore them or you'll end up having an ulcer. ;-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri Aug 3 09:17:14 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:17:14 +0200 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On 8/2/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> It's not about who gets the bigger userbase. >> It's not about who gets the most users off Windows. >> It's not about who gets the most exposure. >> And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either. > > Hello, > I tend to agree with Jeroen van Meeuwen's words. However even some > Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this. > I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things; Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make them understand "the Fedora way of life". You're talking about what Fedora does in the FOSS world and what it means for FOSS that Fedora does that. That is all so very true and so very much added value to FOSS. But what users may tend to appreciate more then whatever Fedora does or stands for: What is the added value of Fedora for end-users? Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here; I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that an end-user hasn't either. Sure it's neat and looks great and has this huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made, (co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up in other distributions as well. Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm behind a keyboard. No matter how you put it, or what it is you personally admire in Fedora; Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone installing Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again: >From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora? If you appreciate that point being made you'll also appreciate that it is not easy to make others understand all these things that make up Fedora. I gotta say I'm kinda bluntly taking this one side of the medal out of context just to make a point. I hope whoever reads this does see I just want to make /a/ point, not put everything in perspective and make this one point something major, major, major. Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added value you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt Fedora instead of any other distribution? BTW, /please/ don't make this a thread about how wrong I am or what I'm missing here ;-) Although you may virtually kick me in the teeth about whatever you think it is I'm absolutely wrong about, it's not what the thread is about... yet. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From jmbabich at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 10:55:56 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:55:56 +0300 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> Karsten: First of all, sorry if I'm posting to the wrong list. As part of our preparation for GITEX, I have had to think about two things recently: 1. Fedora's branding, and 2. Fedora's identity I viewed the excellent presentation (yes, I pressed F5). Here are some conclusions I drew from the slideshow: ONE: BRANDING Here is the crux of the matter: In a commercial context, this is the definition of BRANDING: The main purpose of branding is to get MORE people to buy MORE stuff for MORE years at a HIGHER price. This definition doesn't make sense for a FLOSS community distribution. This definition makes more sense in the Fedora Project context: The main purpose of branding is to get MORE people to produce AND consume MORE FLOSS for MORE years at a HIGHER rate. To further clarify, a strong Fedora brand will communicate the "Trust = Reliability and Delight" formula: Fedora: the Linux distro you can depend on (and more fun, too!) Reliability = Quality and dependability Delight = Cool technology with great design and the enjoyable gut feeling of "scratching the user's itch" TWO: IDENTITY As pointed out in the presentation, "Identity is not a logo". At the same time, we don't want to confuse people by mixing the Fedora and Red Hat logos together. I'm glad Fedora is sponsored by Red Hat. I also appreciate the need for Fedora to have its own identity. This goes beyond legal issues like trademarks to providing quality and reliability. I say the Fedora identity is the experience of being part of the Fedora Project community. The Fedora Project, warts and all, is a quality open source community that produces a quality distro. That's the differentiator. CONCLUSION The purpose of the Fedora Project is to produce and sustain a leading-edge linux distribution with excellent developer and user community support. That's what Fedora offers and sets Fedora apart. >From a 10-year linux user and 1-year Fedora Project member, John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 3 13:35:38 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:35:38 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186148138.3732.18.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:28 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > However even some Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this. As I said before, ignore the evangelical fanboys. ;) > I like the idea of spreading the word about fedora in the daily life > of all humans. Because I personally don't like windows users to > consider ubuntu = linux, as that would underrate fedora contributors' > contribution. You mean like people used to (and still do) associate Red Hat = Linux? ;) Sorry, had to point out the obvious. > But direct competition (which is good or which is bad) isn't the right > way. I wish Linux advocates and users of all distros would put it out of the minds. Luckily most distribution contributors -- at least major, long lasting ones -- do. Because distros all work together, and stand on the shoulders of giants in the first place. On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 11:17 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things; > Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make > them understand "the Fedora way of life". Do you think they will treat it any different than "the Red Hat way of life" prior? I mean, I still have fellow Gentoo, Ubuntu, etc... users complaining about how "Red Hat Linux 5 broke everything" without stopping to understand the whole reason for switching to GLibC 2. And that's just the earliest one I can remember, there are plenty more popular ones that came after that! Ignore them. There are so many people talking about their "tragedies" of Red Hat Linux 5.0, Red Hat Linux 7, Red Hat Linux 9.0, Fedora Core 2 and Fedora Core 4 because they didn't stop to realize, "hey, there's a reason you don't always adopt 'the latest' if you want maximum compatibility." > Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here; > I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for > end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that > an end-user hasn't either. So? They go Ubuntu, which includes a commercial support option for home consumers. At least those consumers are served for what they want to pay for. > Sure it's neat and looks great and has this > huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't > distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made, > (co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up > in other distributions as well. A crapload, yes. But so have select other companies. No, no other distributor has as much as Red Hat and its Fedora volunteers. But consumers don't look at that anyway. After all, just look at IBM. Most people assume IBM has contributed the most GPL code because they spent $1B on Linux, and then another $100M on Linux. It's part of the reason why many people outside of Linux believed (at least initially) that SCO's contract lawsuit (I'm talking the original March 2003 filing, not the subsequent expansion in May 2003 that caused Linus to change from calling it "a contract dispute" to "SCO's on crack") with IBM was about IBM "finally making Linux work." The former $1B was largely to get their virtualization and iron working (with a few notables, like Eclipse), the latter $100M was entirely to port the whole Notes suite and system to Linux -- a 100% proprietary application. So forget reaching those people. They are beyond reach, or will always see things in other ways even if you manage to sell them on some things at one point. > Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a > developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value > so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new > technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases > whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community > instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the > core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters > that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm > behind a keyboard. The Fedora Project is the former Red Hat Linux community done right. Strategically controlled by Red Hat, but completely opened up development and release. Red Hat Linux was always the "engineer's playground" in many aspects (especially for ".0" releases), and relied on extensive community contribution. Now with Fedora, it's formalized and executed by the community -- with its strategic aspects still controlled by Red Hat. > Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone installing > Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again: > >From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora? I see your point, and I agree with it. At the same time, I'm not worried. > Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added value > you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see > GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes > end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt > Fedora instead of any other distribution? Most people won't realize what Fedora is until it's gone. But it won't be gone anytime soon, not with the funds Red Hat puts into it for its own endeavors. Which, unlike Ubuntu, have significantly higher profit margains, which allows Red Hat to employ so many GPL developers. So let Ubuntu have its focus, mindshare, etc... with consumers. If anything, Windows is a testament to the fact that _consumers_ should _not_ control core aspects of design in the OS -- especially "consumer attitudes" that then infiltrate _critical_ services. Hence why Red Hat and the Greater Fedora project fills this aspect quite nicely. ;) > BTW, /please/ don't make this a thread about how wrong I am or what I'm > missing here ;-) Although you may virtually kick me in the teeth about > whatever you think it is I'm absolutely wrong about, it's not what the > thread is about... yet. No, I know exactly what you are saying. And you are correct. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 13:29:53 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> Message-ID: This is one of the best discussions I've seen on this list in a while, and I appreciate the sentiments. More inline, below. On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: >> On 8/2/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >>> It's not about who gets the bigger userbase. >>> It's not about who gets the most users off Windows. >>> It's not about who gets the most exposure. >>> And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either. >> >> Hello, >> I tend to agree with Jeroen van Meeuwen's words. However even some >> Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this. >> > > I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things; > > Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make > them understand "the Fedora way of life". You're talking about what > Fedora does in the FOSS world and what it means for FOSS that Fedora > does that. That is all so very true and so very much added value to > FOSS. But what users may tend to appreciate more then whatever Fedora > does or stands for: > > What is the added value of Fedora for end-users? > > Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here; > > I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for > end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that > an end-user hasn't either. Sure it's neat and looks great and has this > huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't > distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made, > (co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up > in other distributions as well. > > Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a > developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value > so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new > technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases > whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community > instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the > core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters > that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm > behind a keyboard. And you, Jeroen, are the primary target audience of Fedora. To whatever degree we may find ourselves "competing" for users, we must always remember that, with the choices we make, we choose the users who care most about us. We choose our users with our focus. What does Ubuntu focus on? "Make it work for the desktop user, at any cost." Which is a good focus to broaden the impact of Linux generally -- but it requires a lot of compromises. What does Fedora focus on? "Innovation in free software, in partnership with the community." And over time, we treat this partnership more and more seriously, and we put as much power to innovate into the hands of end users as we possibly can. I like our focus. I think it's the right focus. And in the long run, I think it's the focus that pays higher dividends. > No matter how you put it, or what it is you personally admire in Fedora; > Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone installing > Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again: > >> From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora? > > If you appreciate that point being made you'll also appreciate that it > is not easy to make others understand all these things that make up > Fedora. I gotta say I'm kinda bluntly taking this one side of the medal > out of context just to make a point. I hope whoever reads this does see > I just want to make /a/ point, not put everything in perspective and > make this one point something major, major, major. > > Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added value > you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see > GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes > end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt > Fedora instead of any other distribution? I think you're exactly right. We need to communicate this particular message more effectively: "Fedora leads the fight to make free software better." *THAT* is the message, from where I sit. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 13:32:51 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, John Babich wrote: > CONCLUSION > > The purpose of the Fedora Project is to produce and sustain a > leading-edge linux distribution with excellent developer and user > community support. Very good. I'd make one change: s/a leading edge/THE leading edge Because our purpose is to be THE leading edge Linux distribution. Let's not be modest about this goal, since other distros aren't modest about theirs. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 13:54:05 2007 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:54:05 -0500 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, John Babich wrote: > >> CONCLUSION >> >> The purpose of the Fedora Project is to produce and sustain a >> leading-edge linux distribution with excellent developer and user >> community support. > > Very good. I'd make one change: > > s/a leading edge/THE leading edge > > Because our purpose is to be THE leading edge Linux distribution. > Let's not be modest about this goal, since other distros aren't modest > about theirs. Where is the appropriate place to put this on the website? wiki/Overview is completely unfocused. -Mike From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Aug 3 14:13:49 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:13:49 +0300 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46B3381D.4010001@nicubunu.ro> Mike McGrath wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, John Babich wrote: >>> >>> The purpose of the Fedora Project is to produce and sustain a >>> leading-edge linux distribution with excellent developer and user >>> community support. >> >> Very good. I'd make one change: >> >> s/a leading edge/THE leading edge >> >> Because our purpose is to be THE leading edge Linux distribution. >> Let's not be modest about this goal, since other distros aren't modest >> about theirs. > > Where is the appropriate place to put this on the website? > wiki/Overview is completely unfocused. Front page. Just along or instead of "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software". (preferable instead of, as a shorter phrase has more impact) -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 14:26:14 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:56:14 +0530 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> Mike McGrath wrote: > Where is the appropriate place to put this on the website? > wiki/Overview is completely unfocused. Frontpage of Fedora already has this: "The Fedora Project is out front for you, leading the advancement of free, open software and content." Maybe a short form of this should be our slogan? Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 14:25:36 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Where is the appropriate place to put this on the website? wiki/Overview >> is completely unfocused. > > Frontpage of Fedora already has this: > > "The Fedora Project is out front for you, leading the advancement of free, > open software and content." > > Maybe a short form of this should be our slogan? Something pithy. Bold, but true and defensible. Fedora. Leading by example. Fedora. Leaders of the Free World. Can we do it in five words? :) --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 14:56:18 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:26:18 +0530 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > Fedora. Leading by example. > > Fedora. Leaders of the Free World. > > Can we do it in five words? :) > Leading by example doesn't say what kind of example we are trying to set. "Free world" is a bit too vague too and a bit amusing with the patents on software situation. "Leading Free Software" can be interpreted to mean that we are leading the advancement of Free software or we are leaders in Free software. I like both these meanings. The only problem I can see is free vs gratis confusion in that. If you want to try another angle "Leading Software Freedom" "Leading Software Libre" How is that any different from one of those FSF endorsed distributions? Do end users care enough about the Free software aspect of it? I don't want us to be struck on debates on definitions of freedom forever either. Rahul From thebs413 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 15:53:56 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 08:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <211613.64239.qm@web32910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Something pithy. Bold, but true and defensible. > Fedora. Leading by example. Almost perfect! How about ... "Fedora: Leading Innovation by Example" And possibly the sub-slogan ... "We're Not Just a Distro" -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 3 15:59:11 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:59:11 -0500 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B350CF.7040403@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > >> >> Fedora. Leading by example. >> >> Fedora. Leaders of the Free World. >> >> Can we do it in five words? :) >> > > Leading by example doesn't say what kind of example we are trying to > set. "Free world" is a bit too vague too and a bit amusing with the > patents on software situation. > > "Leading Free Software" can be interpreted to mean that we are leading > the advancement of Free software or we are leaders in Free software. I > like both these meanings. > > The only problem I can see is free vs gratis confusion in that. If you > want to try another angle > > "Leading Software Freedom" > "Leading Software Libre" > > How is that any different from one of those FSF endorsed > distributions? Do end users care enough about the Free software aspect > of it? I don't want us to be struck on debates on definitions of > freedom forever either. > > Rahul > I like both of the last corrections you made: "Fedora: Leading Software Freedom" The other, "Leading Software Libre" is not bad either, but the first, I think, has an implicit empowerment of "freedom", while the later only describes the situation of the Software (as "libre" or "free" ["liberated"])... MY personal opinion, though. From webpath at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 16:01:48 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:01:48 -0400 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B3516C.2000505@fedoraproject.org> We're already saying infinite freedom with the logo, so what about playing up the cutting edge aspect of Fedora? It doesn't even have to say "Leadership." Fedora. Advancing Computing... Or Linux, Or something. (Don't you hate it when you have a great idea, take a phone call, and then you're idea is no where to be found? -If it comes back I'll send it) ~Karlie Rahul Sundaram wrote: > How is that any different from one of those FSF endorsed distributions? > Do end users care enough about the Free software aspect of it? I don't > want us to be struck on debates on definitions of freedom forever either. > > Rahul > From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 15:48:40 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B350CF.7040403@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> <46B350CF.7040403@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Rahul Sundaram escribi?: >> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> >>> >>> Fedora. Leading by example. >>> >>> Fedora. Leaders of the Free World. >>> >>> Can we do it in five words? :) >>> >> >> Leading by example doesn't say what kind of example we are trying to set. >> "Free world" is a bit too vague too and a bit amusing with the patents on >> software situation. >> >> "Leading Free Software" can be interpreted to mean that we are leading the >> advancement of Free software or we are leaders in Free software. I like >> both these meanings. >> >> The only problem I can see is free vs gratis confusion in that. If you want >> to try another angle >> >> "Leading Software Freedom" >> "Leading Software Libre" >> >> How is that any different from one of those FSF endorsed distributions? Do >> end users care enough about the Free software aspect of it? I don't want >> us to be struck on debates on definitions of freedom forever either. >> >> Rahul >> > I like both of the last corrections you made: > > "Fedora: Leading Software Freedom" > > The other, "Leading Software Libre" is not bad either, but the first, I > think, has an implicit empowerment of "freedom", while the later only > describes the situation of the Software (as "libre" or "free" > ["liberated"])... MY personal opinion, though. How about "Fedora: Leading the Fight For Software Freedom"? I like having "Fight" in there. Stirs up the passions. :) --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From notting at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 16:09:53 2007 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20070803160953.GA21944@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > Frontpage of Fedora already has this: > > "The Fedora Project is out front for you, leading the advancement of free, > open software and content." Isn't the guy who leads the charge waving the flag the one that gets shot first? Bill From thebs413 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 16:26:09 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B350CF.7040403@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <88215.81951.qm@web32911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > "Fedora: Leading Software Freedom" > The other, "Leading Software Libre" is not bad either, but the > first, I think, has an implicit empowerment of "freedom", while > the later only describes the situation of the Software (as "libre" > or "free" ["liberated"])... MY personal opinion, though. Then why not say "Community"? Avoids the entire PC** issue altogether. "Fedora: Leading Innovation by Example" "Fedora: Leading Community Software Innovation" Etc... **NOTE: Yeah, I'm sick of "Freedom" being considered a "Bad Word(TM)." I might be a biased, American Libertarian and "Capitalist Pig(R)" but I know what Freedom is, and it's not incompatible with the concept of "Libre." In fact, Freedom to me encompasses far more. But I know I'm not in the majority on that viewpoint, and it's not PC to think such, but that's just me. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From thebs413 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 16:35:27 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <507994.30384.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > How about "Fedora: Leading the Fight For Software Freedom"? > I like having "Fight" in there. Stirs up the passions. :) Nah, I don't really care for anything related to "conflict" myself. In fact, I rather dislike those who constantly "pick fights" with me when I'm just trying to do my 'thang (although I could be guilty of being abrasive or not carefully tactful at times in e-mail and guilty of causing it). Give you an example ... I'm new to photography. I have a Pentax K100D dSLR (bought it in April). There is _no_shortage_ of people who come up to me and tell me and say things like ... "Why didn't you buy a Canon or Nikon?" "I've never heard of Pentax" "Pentax doesn't have in-lens image stabilization and motors" "Pentax has so few digital lenses compared to Canon or Nikon" Or Point'n Shoot users who say ... "Why did you go dSLR, a 'bridge' camera is better?" "I can get 3fps on my cheaper camera!" "I have a lower aperature, your lenses are slow!" "Pentax, nobody bought those except 1970 photo students" Etc... When I'm just out and trying to photograph things. Sigh. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 3 16:27:44 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <507994.30384.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <507994.30384.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> How about "Fedora: Leading the Fight For Software Freedom"? >> I like having "Fight" in there. Stirs up the passions. :) > > Nah, I don't really care for anything related to "conflict" myself. Well, you're wrong, dammit! Okay, point taken. How about something a little more socialist realism? Something like, "the struggle for software freedom"? Because Fedora is nothing if not stuggle. :) --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From paulds at bu.edu Fri Aug 3 16:47:39 2007 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:47:39 -0400 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: <507994.30384.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070803164739.GD5569@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 12:27:44PM -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Okay, point taken. How about something a little more socialist realism? > Something like, "the struggle for software freedom"? Because Fedora is > nothing if not stuggle. :) I don't think associating Fedora with the word "struggle" will do us any favors in the marketing realm. :) - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 16:50:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:20:57 +0530 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <20070803160953.GA21944@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> <20070803160953.GA21944@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46B35CF1.9030600@fedoraproject.org> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >> Frontpage of Fedora already has this: >> >> "The Fedora Project is out front for you, leading the advancement of free, >> open software and content." > > Isn't the guy who leads the charge waving the flag the one that gets > shot first? It sure looks like we are getting shot all the time. Haven't you answered your MP3 question this week? Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 3 16:56:02 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <280100.32463.qm@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Well, you're wrong, dammit! I'm always wrong. ;) > Okay, point taken. How about something a little more socialist > realism? Something like, "the struggle for software freedom"? > Because Fedora is nothing if not stuggle. :) How about ... "Fedora: The Vigilance of Community [Software] Innovation" "Fedora: Community [Software] Innovation and Vigilance" "Fedora: Community [Software] Vigilance By Example" Etc... Some combination of "Innovation" and "Vigilance." There is necessary conflict, and conflict for conflict's sake. We want to focus on the former, not join the latter. ;) Of course, there's always ... "Fedora: More Than Just Free Bling Don't Make BillieG Your Computer's Pimp" -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 18:16:58 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:46:58 +0530 Subject: Video: Meet the Fedora Ambassadors Message-ID: <46B3711A.3070404@fedoraproject.org> Hi Show case of impressive Brazilian team of Fedora Ambassadors. One of the very strong regionals teams. With the Free software in Fedora and in Brazil, this isn't a surprise though. Congrats folks. http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/08/02/video-meet-the-fedora-ambassadors/ Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Aug 3 22:15:04 2007 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 18:15:04 -0400 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0708031515q2f9040a4ueb67543c4affb547@mail.gmail.com> > > In a commercial context, this is the definition of BRANDING: > > The main purpose of branding is to get > MORE people to buy MORE stuff > for MORE years at a HIGHER price. IIRC, the original quote was from a Coca-Cola CEO about the purpose of a BUSINESS, not BRAND per se: "To get more people to buy more stuff, more often, so that you make more money." You're right in that it is an obvious goal for Red Hat to have, but I think the sentiment still works in the context of Fedora: "To get more people to using more free software, so that free software grows." Which still fits RHATs financial goal in that the more free software users there are, the more stuff RHAT can sell them. FWIW, I think a better definition of brand is that "it is the delta between what you say and what you do." The promise versus the experience. For example, Fedora promises a Red Hat sponsored, community-supported OS made exclusively from Free Software. And it delivers that, so Fedora is on brand in that capacity. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 3 23:38:22 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 05:08:22 +0530 Subject: Bradley Kuhn and Max Spevack to keynote at Ohio LinuxFest Message-ID: <46B3BC6E.1000701@fedoraproject.org> Hi Get going Max. Spread the good word of Fedora. Will there be any recordings? http://lwn.net/Articles/244255/ "Columbus, Ohio -- 2007 has been an exemplary year for software freedom, which makes the keynote speakers selected for Ohio LinuxFest 2007 particularly fitting. The Ohio LinuxFest organizers are proud to announce that Max Spevack and Bradley Kuhn will be keynoting this year. Spevack is the Fedora Project Leader, responsible for chairing the Fedora Project Board, managing Fedora's relationship with Red Hat and day to day operations of the Fedora project, as well as development and execution of Fedora's overall roadmap. During his tenure, the Fedora Project has released Fedora Core 5 and 6, and Fedora 7 -- which merged Fedora Core and Fedora Extras." Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 17:30:35 2007 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:30:35 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> Ubuntu is not worried about competing with Fedora. That's why we're worried about competing with them. That is to say, they made it a primary objective to be attractive to a different user than Fedora is. They went after the desktop, and wanted to be on OEM laptop preloads, etc. They also made it a core value to be a warm and inviting community, and their brand reeks of it--from their name, to their color scheme, to their logo. They're also getting a lot of steam from not being Red Hat. Not that Red Hat is bad, but the new kid in class always gets a lot of attention, doesn't he? I'm more of a "raise the level of the ocean, and all ships rise together" sort of guy, but in a competitive situation, the only way to "beat" Ubuntu, is to get where they are heading, and not worry about where they are right now. For example, Red Hat didn't beat M$ on the desktop, they beat them to UNIX consolidation in the data center. So "competing" with Ubunutu would mean Fedora needs to make a sea change in it's core vision--which is working, so it would be at the expense of where Fedora already has an advantage or stringer brand than Ubuntu. Do we want that? Would going there make us weaken our stronger points, and thusly actually help Ubuntu? Are we willing to install non-free software so that folks who don't understand what's truly at stake like us more? Is Ubuntu actually proving the power of Linux by installing Adobe's Flash player? Or are they compromising the underlying values of F/OSS a little at a time? So what do they stand for, what would they flatly refuse to do, even if it put them at a competitive disadvantage? I don't know, but I know where Fedora stands. When Ubuntu wins, so does proprietary and patent encumbered software. Where Fedora wins, freedom wins. We can be a nicer bunch of folks, we can warm up the brand, we can make a conscious effort to be as warm and inviting as Ubuntu, we can be more viral, more word of mouth. But we can't become the fresh faced new kid, and we can't walk away from free as in freedom. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sat Aug 4 23:16:18 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:16:18 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 13:30 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Ubuntu is not worried about competing with Fedora. That's why we're > worried about competing with them. Huh? > That is to say, they made it a primary objective to be attractive to a > different user than Fedora is. They went after the desktop, and wanted > to be on OEM laptop preloads, etc. Yes, because they offered commercial support as well. Red Hat does too, but with a different focus. I agreed with Michael Tiemann when he talked about years ago (and was quite demonized to a different effect) that the home consumer desktop doesn't have the "economies of scale" required, so they'd rather do it "for free" by putting its developers on such a distribution (which became Fedora). The ignorant IT media exclaimed "Red Hat is getting out of the desktop" even though Red Hat Desktop went on the shelf and RHEL WS, now Client, has been offered since RHEL 2.1 (after WS/ES were offered after the intial Red Hat Advanced Server, now RHEL AS). Red Hat doesn't do this, people do it by reading into what they want, not necessarily what Red Hat actually does. Fedora gets the same treatment. > They also made it a core value to be a warm and inviting community, And Fedora is not? > and their brand reeks of it--from their name, to their color scheme, > to their logo. And Fedora is not? I'm glad you like Ubuntu's marketing. Marketing sells mindshare. But I don't think Fedora (or Red Hat for that matter) need to take up the strategy of Ubuntu (or Conical). I think Shuttleworth's post to the SuSE list shows how wrong that can be sometimes. I also think Fedora (and Red Hat) _continue_ to have a 12 year history of "under-promise, over-deliver" with many, many, many professionals. > They're also getting a lot of steam from not being Red Hat. And that's "new"? People who don't like Red Hat and call them the "Microsoft of Linux" aren't people Fedora is going to reach anyway. Heck, there is even any issue with Red Hat being an American company in the eyes of some. Ironic that it's the most GPL-centric, free IP company of the lot. Even more ironic is how more GPL-centric and free IP-focused German-based SuSE became an American company, Novell, bought them out. Just goes to show that if people think such, then it really doesn't matter, and I don't care to reach them anyway. > Not that Red Hat is bad, but the new kid in class always gets a lot of > attention, doesn't he? Here's the deal. Before the "trademark issues," a lot of IT folk used to be able to sell their boss on installing Red Hat(R) Linux -- because of name. Red Hat was the _only_ major distro that allowed free redistribution of its trademark, which became a major legal issue for them with Sun after Sun bought Cobalt. And no amount of "trademark usage guidelines" seemed to stop the abuse by companies such as Sun, nor the community demonizing a real issue Red Hat was running into. People don't realize that SuSE _never_ allowed its trademarks to abused, and went after people who did. Novell now doesn't worry as much because they have Novell(R). Red Hat used the same with Fedora(TM) separate from Red Hat(R). About 97% of people who stopped using Red Hat Linux constantly claim this was their reason, that their boss wouldn't accept Fedora. That's what they complain about. That's what their problem is. Oh well, get over it. Ubuntu is going to run into similar issues if they don't watch it. Although they do have Conical. It will be interesting. > I'm more of a "raise the level of the ocean, and all ships rise > together" sort of guy, but in a competitive situation, the only way to > "beat" Ubuntu, is to get where they are heading, and not worry about > where they are right now. I'm with Tiemann's long demonized speech. The man co-founded the _first_, _successful_ GPL/open source company in Cygnus. He knows what matters, what is infeasible, and what requires time to gain marketshare. It's great that Conical/Ubuntu is addressing this, and at some point, it may become feasible for Red Hat to offer competing, commercial support. But I seriously doubt Fedora ever will, by the very nature of its creation. At the same time, Fedora is not "going to die." In fact, if and when Red Hat feels there is the "economies of scale" for a consumer-supported version, don't be surprised when its 100% Fedora relabeled, repackaged and rebranded. And I'm sure people will demonize that too when that happens! ;) > For example, Red Hat didn't beat M$ on the desktop, they beat them to > UNIX consolidation in the data center. So "competing" with Ubunutu > would mean Fedora needs to make a sea change in it's core > vision--which is working, so it would be at the expense of where > Fedora already has an advantage or stringer brand than Ubuntu. Do we > want that? Would going there make us weaken our stronger points, and > thusly actually help Ubuntu? Are we willing to install non-free > software so that folks who don't understand what's truly at stake like > us more? Is Ubuntu actually proving the power of Linux by installing > Adobe's Flash player? Or are they compromising the underlying values > of F/OSS a little at a time? So what do they stand for, what would > they flatly refuse to do, even if it put them at a competitive > disadvantage? I don't know, but I know where Fedora stands. When > Ubuntu wins, so does proprietary and patent encumbered software. > Where Fedora wins, freedom wins. > We can be a nicer bunch of folks, we can warm up the brand, we can > make a conscious effort to be as warm and inviting as Ubuntu, we can > be more viral, more word of mouth. But we can't become the fresh faced > new kid, and we can't walk away from free as in freedom. I really don't see it as any market Fedora or Red Hat needs to cater to. Fedora sells on its own merits. Let Conical/Ubuntu have its focus. As many others have pointed out, that's always a good thing for Linux. As far as proprietary and IP issues, that _always_ bites companies in the end. And Red Hat learned that long ago. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 12:04:15 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 17:34:15 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis Message-ID: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> Hi This might lead to interesting changes in the project. Watch out! http://lwn.net/Articles/242965 "The Fedora project has a solid base to build on and an increasingly open community process to help it get to where it wants to be. With the right focus on an interesting set of goals, Fedora could surprise the world. This distribution should have no trouble proving that it's not over the hill yet." Rahul From rstaaf at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 5 13:23:45 2007 From: rstaaf at bellsouth.net (Bob Staaf) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:23:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 17:34 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > This might lead to interesting changes in the project. Watch out! > > http://lwn.net/Articles/242965 > > "The Fedora project has a solid base to build on and an increasingly > open community process to help it get to where it wants to be. With the > right focus on an interesting set of goals, Fedora could surprise the > world. This distribution should have no trouble proving that it's not > over the hill yet." > > Rahul > This wouldn't also happen to be somewhat related to the recent news articles about a new product from Red Hat called the "Red Hat Global Desktop"? The articles seem to indicate there is a delay in the release until September at least partly due to research into whether to include non-FOSS codecs in the release??? http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4294334547.html http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/08/04/1117234.shtml http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2007080303126OPRHSW Any seems a lot of changes may be coming down the pike! Bob From jkeating at j2solutions.net Sun Aug 5 13:47:09 2007 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 09:47:09 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> Message-ID: <20070805094709.3a69a8e1@ender> On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 09:23:45 -0400 Bob Staaf wrote: > This wouldn't also happen to be somewhat related to the recent news > articles about a new product from Red Hat called the "Red Hat Global > Desktop"? The articles seem to indicate there is a delay in the > release until September at least partly due to research into whether > to include non-FOSS codecs in the release??? > > http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4294334547.html > http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/08/04/1117234.shtml > http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2007080303126OPRHSW > > Any seems a lot of changes may be coming down the pike! Red Hat Enterprise Linux has long included non-free content such as Java, Adobe Acrobat reader, Adobe Flash, etc... Having a Desktop release based on RHEL it doesn't seem that surprising that it would include the same kind of things, possibly more. While unfortunate for that product, it has no bearing as to whether or not things like that would ever make it into Fedora. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 14:11:13 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:41:13 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> Message-ID: <46B5DA81.8060101@fedoraproject.org> Bob Staaf wrote: >> > > This wouldn't also happen to be somewhat related to the recent news > articles about a new product from Red Hat called the "Red Hat Global > Desktop"? I am not sure where do you see any relation. What the focus of Fedora itself should be is different from what any derivative distribution is doing. Did you read the article? Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 5 14:28:04 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:28:04 +0800 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> -----Original Message----- From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Rahul Sundaram Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2007 8:04 PM To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis Hi This might lead to interesting changes in the project. Watch out! http://lwn.net/Articles/242965 "The Fedora project has a solid base to build on and an increasingly open community process to help it get to where it wants to be. With the right focus on an interesting set of goals, Fedora could surprise the world. This distribution should have no trouble proving that it's not over the hill yet." Rahul I would have thought that the Fedora Board would have considered that question and possibly answered it in their own heads. It's one of the long standing question who is the target market. Now people can say it's aimed at devs but to me it seems like Fedora is very strong in the server market but on the desktop side of things it doesn't go all the way. Leaving Codecs out of it cause to me that's irrelevant. Using PCLinuxOS or Ubuntu as an example they have pointed themselves directly at the desktop market and their server or Ubuntu's server setup isn't as good as Fedora's (My opinion = SELinux, stability and ease of install). Fedora to me as always looked and felt like a Corporate Desktop and or Corporate Server more so than a home desktop. Yet by the same token there are some significant enhancements in the desktop part that I have thought damn they are good. So I suppose it's back to the question who is Fedora targeting as an audience? Should Fedora separate out certain aspects to cater to certain areas? Like coming up with ideas for desktop enhancements and a group for Server enhancements. With the Live-CD's I believe that's a HUGE step in the right direction. Cheers, Marc From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 14:43:41 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:13:41 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> Message-ID: <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I would have thought that the Fedora Board would have considered that > question and possibly answered it in their own heads. It doesn't work that way. When you involve volunteers top down control is ineffective even if you bring in some balance with a elected model. In effect, there needs to consensus within the project on some direction. . Now people can say it's aimed > at devs but to me it seems like Fedora is very strong in the server market > but on the desktop side of things it doesn't go all the way. Leaving Codecs > out of it cause to me that's irrelevant. Servers usually need a longer lifecyle to be effective though and codecs are a important factor in what you consider a desktop but true we are not going to be doing proprietary codecs by default. > > So I suppose it's back to the question who is Fedora targeting as an > audience? Should Fedora separate out certain aspects to cater to certain > areas? Like coming up with ideas for desktop enhancements and a group for > Server enhancements. With the Live-CD's I believe that's a HUGE step in the > right direction. Right. Live images are a good first step. There has been a number of discussions on the steps forward. We will have to explore and see. Nobody has all the answers. Rahul From rstaaf at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 5 14:44:22 2007 From: rstaaf at bellsouth.net (Bob Staaf) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 10:44:22 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5DA81.8060101@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> <46B5DA81.8060101@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <00c601c7d76f$1d456fa0$1402a8c0@dadsgx270mt> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rahul Sundaram [mailto:sundaram at fedoraproject.org] > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 10:11 AM > To: rstaaf at bellsouth.net; For discussions about marketing and expanding > the Fedora user base > Subject: Re: Fedora's mid-life crisis > > Bob Staaf wrote: > >> > > > > This wouldn't also happen to be somewhat related to the recent news > > articles about a new product from Red Hat called the "Red Hat Global > > Desktop"? > > I am not sure where do you see any relation. What the focus of Fedora > itself should be is different from what any derivative distribution is > doing. Did you read the article? > > Rahul Yes I did read the article at the link you provided. I wasn't trying to make any kind of statement, it was a question. I had read all the recent articles regarding the Red Hat Global Desktop and talk of proprietary codecs and what would appear to be a product outside of the typical enterprise focus of current Red Hat products and then today I see what appears to be indications of a change or at least talk of a change in focus for Fedora. I have been a Red Hat user since 6.0, cut my Linux teeth on the hacked up version of Red Hat that Cobalt used on their old Raq3 servers. I went from that to 6.2 on my own co-located servers and have used every version of Red Hat since. Having already been through a change with my favorite disto, I get touchy when there is talk of messing with the focus of Redhat and now Fedora. Again, my email was a question and not any kind of statement.... Thanks Bob From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 5 15:02:01 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 23:02:01 +0800 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora- > marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Rahul Sundaram > Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2007 10:44 PM > To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base > Subject: Re: Fedora's mid-life crisis > > Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > > I would have thought that the Fedora Board would have considered that > > question and possibly answered it in their own heads. > > It doesn't work that way. When you involve volunteers top down control > is ineffective even if you bring in some balance with a elected model. > In effect, there needs to consensus within the project on some > direction. > I'm a bit inexperienced with that situation personally but I would have thought the whole point of voting leaders to the board is so that they lead? So what does the board do on a strategic level? I'm not meaning to question in a derogatory way but I would have thought the strategic aspect of the board would be to consider these aspects of Fedora and at least try and find solutions to the questions. > . Now people can say it's aimed > > at devs but to me it seems like Fedora is very strong in the server > market > > but on the desktop side of things it doesn't go all the way. Leaving > Codecs > > out of it cause to me that's irrelevant. > > Servers usually need a longer lifecyle to be effective though and > codecs > are a important factor in what you consider a desktop but true we are > not going to be doing proprietary codecs by default. > > > > So I suppose it's back to the question who is Fedora targeting as an > > audience? Should Fedora separate out certain aspects to cater to > certain > > areas? Like coming up with ideas for desktop enhancements and a > group for > > Server enhancements. With the Live-CD's I believe that's a HUGE step > in the > > right direction. > > Right. Live images are a good first step. There has been a number of > discussions on the steps forward. We will have to explore and see. > Nobody has all the answers. > > Rahul > Anything that you can share? I'm quite interested in seeing where Fedora is heading. Cheers, Marc Wiriadisastra From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 15:15:06 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:45:06 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <00c601c7d76f$1d456fa0$1402a8c0@dadsgx270mt> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <1186320225.2710.14.camel@dadssx260> <46B5DA81.8060101@fedoraproject.org> <00c601c7d76f$1d456fa0$1402a8c0@dadsgx270mt> Message-ID: <46B5E97A.9030908@fedoraproject.org> Bob Staaf wrote: > > Yes I did read the article at the link you provided. I wasn't trying to > make any kind of statement, it was a question. I had read all the recent > articles regarding the Red Hat Global Desktop and talk of proprietary codecs > and what would appear to be a product outside of the typical enterprise > focus of current Red Hat products and then today I see what appears to be > indications of a change or at least talk of a change in focus for Fedora. Unrelated to each other completely. Having already been through a change with my favorite disto, I > get touchy when there is talk of messing with the focus of Redhat and now > Fedora. Ah ok. That makes it more understandable but what are you worried about currently in the discussions? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 15:22:29 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:52:29 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> Message-ID: <46B5EB35.2070501@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I'm a bit inexperienced with that situation personally but I would have > thought the whole point of voting leaders to the board is so that they lead? > So what does the board do on a strategic level? I'm not meaning to question > in a derogatory way but I would have thought the strategic aspect of the > board would be to consider these aspects of Fedora and at least try and find > solutions to the questions. They can try and find solutions but any analysis within their own heads as you put it isn't going to drastically change what people do. In other words, if I am a contributor doing things voluntarily in Fedora, I can understand things only if the board communicates any ideas or visions for the future to me and I am very likely only going to consider those changes if they were discussed and consensus formed publicly. There are some exceptions like legal requirements which have external requirements but a governing body even when elected is only as affective as the people who do things want it to be. > Anything that you can share? I'm quite interested in seeing where Fedora is > heading. Everything I can share is the discussions already in the public lists. Fedora Advisory Board and fedora-desktop lists specifically. Rahul From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Sun Aug 5 15:32:55 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 16:32:55 +0100 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5EB35.2070501@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> <46B5EB35.2070501@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3263b11b0708050832h11b7042n76124d4a5122b992@mail.gmail.com> > if I am a contributor doing things voluntarily in Fedora, I can > understand things only if the board communicates any ideas or visions > for the future to me and I am very likely only going to consider those > changes if they were discussed and consensus formed publicly. The people over at freeculture.org have had an interesting project lately: free culture visions (or something similar). They've invited anybody who follows freeculture.org (i.e. anybody in the public) to write a short piece about where they see free culture heading, what they'd like to see etc. Perhaps something similar might be appropriate for the Fedora project, to prompt discussion in the wider community? Best wishes, Jon From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 15:45:09 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:15:09 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0708050832h11b7042n76124d4a5122b992@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> <46B5EB35.2070501@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0708050832h11b7042n76124d4a5122b992@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B5F085.3020406@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: >> if I am a contributor doing things voluntarily in Fedora, I can >> understand things only if the board communicates any ideas or visions >> for the future to me and I am very likely only going to consider those >> changes if they were discussed and consensus formed publicly. > > The people over at freeculture.org have had an interesting project > lately: free culture visions (or something similar). > > They've invited anybody who follows freeculture.org (i.e. anybody in > the public) to write a short piece about where they see free culture > heading, what they'd like to see etc. Perhaps something similar might > be appropriate for the Fedora project, to prompt discussion in the > wider community? Just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone write a article musing about Fedora's future in Red Hat magazine or something like that? Rahul From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Sun Aug 5 15:53:10 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 16:53:10 +0100 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5F085.3020406@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> <46B5EB35.2070501@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0708050832h11b7042n76124d4a5122b992@mail.gmail.com> <46B5F085.3020406@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3263b11b0708050853s37555916p80f701757b331ccf@mail.gmail.com> > Just to clarify, are you suggesting that someone write a article musing > about Fedora's future in Red Hat magazine or something like that? Oh, that might be an interesting approach actually, but not what I originally had in mind :D Originally I was suggesting some kind of method to take, and publish, submissions from all around the community covering the future of Fedora and where they'd like to see it go. Somebody mentioned in an earlier message in this thread that as a volunteer driven project it is important not to try and operate "top-down" - perhaps this would be a good way to get input from, and engage in discussion with the wider community. But, I also like the suggestion of an article in Red Hat magazine: one that covers all the recent discussions that have gone on across various mailing lists during the last few weeks. Jon From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 16:02:16 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:32:16 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0708050853s37555916p80f701757b331ccf@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> <46B5E21D.5070809@fedoraproject.org> <000901c7d771$95166e60$bf434b20$@id.au> <46B5EB35.2070501@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0708050832h11b7042n76124d4a5122b992@mail.gmail.com> <46B5F085.3020406@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0708050853s37555916p80f701757b331ccf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B5F488.8050204@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > Originally I was suggesting some kind of method to take, and publish, > submissions from all around the community covering the future of > Fedora and where they'd like to see it go. I am more interested in hearing from existing contributors who are already participating in the discussions. End users tend to want a lot of things and not all of them make sense to implement directly. Existing contributors are clued in on the project ideas and where we can realistically move forward. Somebody mentioned in an > earlier message in this thread that as a volunteer driven project it > is important not to try and operate "top-down" - perhaps this would be > a good way to get input from, and engage in discussion with the wider > community. Yeah, that someone was me but I wasn't interested in a generic vote from everyone. I like the self selected groups. Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 16:59:55 2007 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 12:59:55 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/4/07, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > They also made it a core value to be a warm and inviting community, > > And Fedora is not? Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how friendly the UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I hear about Red Hat, I hear about features. > and their brand reeks of it--from their name, to their color scheme, > > to their logo. > > And Fedora is not? Compared to them? No. Look up the psychological meaning of the colors in their palette. Now, look up the meaning of blue. They fall into a spectrum called "warm", whereas blue falls into "cool". As in cold, not like the Fonz. What's the definition of the word Ubuntu, versus the definition of a Fedora? That's what I mean. The name, the color scheme, the logo is about warmth, community, sharing. Ours is about being near, but not Red Hat. I'm glad you like Ubuntu's marketing. You've missed my point, I think, so I'll try and be more clear. I don't like their marketing any better than Fedora's marketing. I was pointing out that where they are strong, it is because they made it a primary focus to be strong. Whereas, Fedora is strong where it set out to be. So my point was that "competing" with Ubuntu, means being something I don't think any of us joined this project to be. Sub text to that point was that we shouldn't target other distros. Like WalMart versus Target. WalMart always has the best price, Target has better products. Other than that, you can get all of the same stuff. Fedora's success isn't predicated on Ubuntu's failure. Their mindshare gains, are not necessarily at our expense. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 17:47:38 2007 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:47:38 +0200 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0708051047s6a2beb6cm3054fab906e9f8d1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/5/07, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how friendly the > UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I hear about > Red Hat, I hear about features. Except Jono Bacon. He talks only about Mark Shuttleworth and his fantastic job. :) chitlesh From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 17:54:06 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 23:24:06 +0530 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0708051047s6a2beb6cm3054fab906e9f8d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0708051047s6a2beb6cm3054fab906e9f8d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46B60EBE.2080201@fedoraproject.org> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On 8/5/07, Jeremy Hogan wrote: >> Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how friendly the >> UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I hear about >> Red Hat, I hear about features. > > Except Jono Bacon. He talks only about Mark Shuttleworth and his > fantastic job. :) Get him drunk and see ;-) Rahul From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 18:41:11 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 14:41:11 -0400 Subject: Legal Codecs Needed Message-ID: What makes Windows/MAC more successful is they encourage third party developers to sell legal plug-ins/codecs allowing MP3, DVD, HD-DVD to be played. Fedora, Ubuntu, and the other major Linux Distributions lack this so illegal means are common. It is time for third party developers to sell codecs for the major Linux distributions thus ending the illegal route. Also, the ogg theora codec isn't ready for prime time yet, I hope it will be fully able for Fedora 8 and beyond. There also should be a GNOME app that encodes DV to OGG. I wish there was an OGG codec equivalent of Flash for web sites, that would be very ideal... Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 18:49:28 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:19:28 +0530 Subject: Legal Codecs Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46B61BB8.4010604@fedoraproject.org> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > What makes Windows/MAC more successful is they encourage third party > developers to sell legal plug-ins/codecs allowing MP3, DVD, HD-DVD to be > played. Fedora, Ubuntu, and the other major > Linux Distributions lack this so illegal means are common. It is time > for third party developers to > sell codecs for the major Linux distributions thus ending the illegal route. They already do. See http://fluendo.com for example. What third party developers do isn't really on topic for this list. > Also, the ogg theora codec isn't ready for prime time yet, I hope it > will be fully able for Fedora 8 > and beyond. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy There also should be a GNOME app that encodes DV to OGG. I > wish there was > an OGG codec equivalent of Flash for web sites, that would be very ideal... Both of these are already available in the repositories. Here is a FAQ I wrote on the subject http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_47_5781.shtm Some other references: http://www.gnomefiles.org/category.php?cat_id=12 http://directory.fsf.org/audio/ogg/ Rahul From luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com Sun Aug 5 20:05:39 2007 From: luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 13:05:39 -0700 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> Rahul Sundaram a ?crit : > Hi > > This might lead to interesting changes in the project. Watch out! > > http://lwn.net/Articles/242965 > > "The Fedora project has a solid base to build on and an increasingly > open community process to help it get to where it wants to be. With > the right focus on an interesting set of goals, Fedora could surprise > the world. This distribution should have no trouble proving that it's > not over the hill yet." > > Rahul > There is so much that Fedora can do while only using FOSS, the limit is the developers/users imaginations. Fedora is used from studios (Pixar) to embedded device like OLPC and Playstation 3. I think most outsiders won't admit they don't understand how the process works and instead rely on misquoted and twisted views from some IT medias. From imtiaz.rahi at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 20:40:44 2007 From: imtiaz.rahi at gmail.com (Imtiaz Rahi) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 02:40:44 +0600 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> Message-ID: Luya is one point. Fedora is used and can be used for so many purposes. As a base distro Fedora can concentrate to be a good desktop even without considering the Multimedia issues. With some more polish like to be a good choice for Laptop, ease of use. And even with those I guess Fedora will not loose its appeal as server distro. Whether we don't support Fedora for long time or not its being used as server in lots of places, at production sites. Because of its stability (acceptable range) and ease of configure. Its got the balance of configuration using GUI and command line. Only painful thing to me is YUM. RPM packages are good but YUM, Pirut and others are not good enough. Synaptic is still better to see what updates are available, then choose one and find out what are the dependencies which are going to be downloaded and etc. Fedora has so many ways to go and opportunities, may be thats why we don't know where to go. Certainly, I don't want to mention it as just a developer distro. Also, any derivatives should be able to say its based on Fedora rather then removing all Fedora branding. Fedora should be that much flexible. Why don't we arrange a poll ? Cheers, Imtiaz On 8/6/07, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram a ?crit : > > Hi > > > > This might lead to interesting changes in the project. Watch out! > > > > http://lwn.net/Articles/242965 > > > > "The Fedora project has a solid base to build on and an increasingly > > open community process to help it get to where it wants to be. With > > the right focus on an interesting set of goals, Fedora could surprise > > the world. This distribution should have no trouble proving that it's > > not over the hill yet." > > > > Rahul > > > There is so much that Fedora can do while only using FOSS, the limit is > the developers/users imaginations. Fedora is used from studios (Pixar) > to embedded device like OLPC and Playstation 3. I think most outsiders > won't admit they don't understand how the process works and instead rely > on misquoted and twisted views from some IT medias. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 20:52:03 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 02:22:03 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> Message-ID: <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> Imtiaz Rahi wrote: > > Only painful thing to me is YUM. RPM packages are good but YUM, Pirut > and others are not good enough. > Synaptic is still better to see what updates are available, then choose > one and find out what are the dependencies which are going to be > downloaded and etc. File RFE's in bugzilla against Pirut for what you want to see. Note that Synaptic is available in the Fedora repository if you really need it > > Also, any derivatives should be able to say its based on Fedora rather > then removing all Fedora branding. Fedora should be that much flexible. Yep. Work in progress at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureGenericLogos > Why don't we arrange a poll ? I really don't want us to deciding the future by random polling. Structured detailed feedback is much more useful. http://insightbydesign.blogspot.com/2007/07/how-to-build-faster-horse.html Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 5 23:09:11 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 07:09:11 +0800 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <006a01c7d7b5$a3140880$e93c1980$@id.au> > Imtiaz Rahi wrote: > > > > > Only painful thing to me is YUM. RPM packages are good but YUM, Pirut > > and others are not good enough. > > Synaptic is still better to see what updates are available, then > choose > > one and find out what are the dependencies which are going to be > > downloaded and etc. > > File RFE's in bugzilla against Pirut for what you want to see. Note > that > Synaptic is available in the Fedora repository if you really need it > Is there a how to for filing RFE's? Since I'm not sure about the steps required in filing a RFE. Cheers, Marc Wiriadisastra From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 23:21:02 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 04:51:02 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <006a01c7d7b5$a3140880$e93c1980$@id.au> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> <006a01c7d7b5$a3140880$e93c1980$@id.au> Message-ID: <46B65B5E.1070107@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > Is there a how to for filing RFE's? Since I'm not sure about the steps > required in filing a RFE. I had written down the steps previously in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Aug 5 23:39:54 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:39:54 -0400 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 12:59 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how friendly > the UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I > hear about Red Hat, I hear about features. I think the continued point I'm trying to make is that different users and contributors to different projects have their own fanboys, their own interests, their own views, and most of what I hear is rather unobjective from one to the other and vice-versa. And some people just have something against Red Hat or anyone associated with them. I don't really care about those folk because they miss a lot of what Red Hat and Fedora contributors really do. In fact, I regularly get the question from clients, "I heard Red Hat just takes stuff from the community and then sells it." And I always respond, "Ever look up the #1 company when it comes to GNU/Linux community contributions? It's not IBM." ;) Listen, all projects stand on the shoulders of giants. Most people don't care. They care about marketing. I think Fedora should continue to and keep doing what it does best, feed the leading edge developments. This is what I liked about Red Hat Linux prior as well. The model is very sound and very trusted to us "old dogs." > Compared to them? No. Look up the psychological meaning of the colors > in their palette. Now, look up the meaning of blue. They fall into a > spectrum called "warm", whereas blue falls into "cool". As in cold, > not like the Fonz. What's the definition of the word Ubuntu, versus > the definition of a Fedora? That's what I mean. The name, the color > scheme, the logo is about warmth, community, sharing. Ours is about > being near, but not Red Hat. I actually like the "cool blue" taste of the Fedora logo. In fact, the ballon theme in Fedora 7 was a really nice change from the norm. Besides, Red Hat is already red. Some associate that with "pinkos." You can't please everyone, and for every positive I can point out a nay say. No sense in second guessing. > You've missed my point, I think, so I'll try and be more clear. I > don't like their marketing any better than Fedora's marketing. I was > pointing out that where they are strong, it is because they made it a > primary focus to be strong. Whereas, Fedora is strong where it set out > to be. And that's fine by me. It's the proven model since Red Hat Linux 4.0. > So my point was that "competing" with Ubuntu, means being something I > don't think any of us joined this project to be. Sub text to that > point was that we shouldn't target other distros. And I disagreed with that? Now I'm confused. @-p > Like WalMart versus Target. WalMart always has the best price, Target > has better products. Subjective and unobjective analysis (and I don't like Wal-mart in the least bit). People will differ. Heck, I caught several American UAW members driving Toyotas. Almost made me laugh. They are probably the same people who lambast Wal-mart, yet still shop there as well. People often say one thing, then actually do another. I still hear the complaints about GCC 2.96 from Red Hat Linux 7 -- yet the API/ABI compatibility of Fedora 7 all the way back to Red Hat Linux 7 is better than any other distro over that time period. Why? Because Red Hat forced everyone to ANSI C++ compliance. Same thing on GLibC 2 before that. Same thing on NPTL, GCC 4, SELinux, etc... after that. People will complain about Red Hat and Fedora, yet will directly -- sometimes quite knowingly -- like their approach. > Other than that, you can get all of the same stuff. Fedora's success > isn't predicated on Ubuntu's failure. Their mindshare gains, are not > necessarily at our expense. And I disagree with this? I think you're confusing my posts with someone else. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Aug 5 23:42:23 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 19:42:23 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> Message-ID: <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 02:40 +0600, Imtiaz Rahi wrote: > Only painful thing to me is YUM. RPM packages are good but YUM, Pirut > and others are not good enough. > Synaptic is still better to see what updates are available, then > choose one and find out what are the dependencies which are going to > be downloaded and etc. Why stop at Apt/Synaptic? Why not just look at Smart Package Manager (aka SmartPM aka Smart)? GUIs are standard. Dependency resolution is outstanding, etc... Also, last time I checked, Apt had _not_ addressed multi-architecture. Anything Debian-based is still using chroot for i386 support. > Why don't we arrange a poll ? Why don't people contribute and directly change what they don't like? ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 5 23:49:16 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:19:16 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > Also, last time I checked, Apt had _not_ addressed multi-architecture. > Anything Debian-based is still using chroot for i386 support. That isn't true. Apt-rpm (not Apt itself) has support for multi lib and works with repomd format used by Yum. It is maintained by the same person in Red Hat, Panu who maintains RPM now. No less. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/Apt The current story is that Red Hat folks either officially or volunterily are involved with RPM, yum, apt-rpm and a port of Adept to Fedora. Amusing? Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 6 00:02:10 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:02:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1186358530.3629.3.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 05:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > That isn't true. Apt-rpm (not Apt itself) has support for multi lib and > works with repomd format used by Yum. It is maintained by the same > person in Red Hat, Panu who maintains RPM now. No less. > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/Apt Oh, thank you for correcting my ignorance then. I don't like to be ignorant and wrong and proliferating incorrect information. Thank you again, and my apologies for doing so. > The current story is that Red Hat folks either officially or volunterily > are involved with RPM, yum, apt-rpm and a port of Adept to Fedora. Amusing? Oh, I've long assumed so. Although I'm a closet SmartPM fanboy. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 02:49:33 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:49:33 -0400 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <20070805234948.1F7BF731B1@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20070805234948.1F7BF731B1@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: I am only trying to help Fedora become the OS that Ubuntu hasn't been able to live up to. Ubuntu has so much going for it, Fedora is only now catching up but it needs to be more known. What I hope to do with linuxglobe, is to promote Fedora and the other Linux OSes out there that aren't related to Ubuntu. If anyone would like to write a column about Fedora, please contact me at hudsonman35 at gmail.com... Thanks and I'm looking forward to try out Fedora 8 Test 2 Live CD.... Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 6 04:07:20 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 23:07:20 -0500 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B69E78.4010406@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Imtiaz Rahi wrote: > >> >> Only painful thing to me is YUM. RPM packages are good but YUM, Pirut >> and others are not good enough. >> Synaptic is still better to see what updates are available, then >> choose one and find out what are the dependencies which are going to >> be downloaded and etc. > > File RFE's in bugzilla against Pirut for what you want to see. Note > that Synaptic is available in the Fedora repository if you really need it Sorry to step in into this... Most of the times is not about the RPM format, but rather the tools to handle it. I have had many reasons to complain about YUM and its utilities, but mainly due to the overhead and performance hit it incurs in. Not to bash Yum, but I have questioned many times if the choice wasn't all that assertive in the begining to use it over more efficient ways like apt-get. Sure apt-get has its quirks too and mainly it didn't allow for transparent multilib support and other conditions where Yum excels, but, I wonder by the 7th release, couldn't these deficiencies in apt-get get resolved with the aid of Fedora developers instead of investing so much effort and time into Yum only to get little to discrete performance boosts? Again, I don't mean to bash YUM, and I see where it has matured (and grown up rather nicely), but it is still not quite there... Only an opinion, though. The times I've filed RFEs for stuff like making pirut to be more informative of a variety of things that CLI YUM does (for example, total size of download, individual package size, etc) are not mere "cosmetic" changes, they have a direct impact in every day's use (for example in pup it would help quite a bit to prioritize updates and estimate download times). Another thing that NEEDS to get implemented in Pirut/pup is a speed meter and a "mirror change" mechanism (just like ctrl+c for CLI YUM) to: a) be able to estimate the time of updates/downloads and b) be able to switch to faster mirrors when a package is getting too slow download speeds. Another proposed feature I remember filing was a mechanism to "manage" multiple repositories right within Pirut. At most I got an "It is planned" answer, but no status on how or when will it be implemented. All in all, the tools are fine, but they need much more polish still. From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 6 04:14:37 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 23:14:37 -0500 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Bryan J. Smith wrote: > >> >> Also, last time I checked, Apt had _not_ addressed multi-architecture. >> Anything Debian-based is still using chroot for i386 support. > > That isn't true. Apt-rpm (not Apt itself) has support for multi lib > and works with repomd format used by Yum. It is maintained by the same > person in Red Hat, Panu who maintains RPM now. No less. And that almost proves my point in the earlier message (I should have waited to see this message and post right here... I apologize for being hasty. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/Apt > > The current story is that Red Hat folks either officially or > volunterily are involved with RPM, yum, apt-rpm and a port of Adept to > Fedora. Amusing? > > Rahul > From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 04:30:53 2007 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 10:00:53 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement] Message-ID: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:44:07 +0530 (IST) From: Atul Chitnis Reply-To: foss-in at yahoogroups.com To: FOSS.IN Dear all, It's that time of the year again, when we reveal details about this year's FOSS.IN. FOSS.IN/2007 will be held from December 4th to December 8th. That's Tuesday through Saturday. The venue will be (for the most part) the National Science Symposium Centre (NSSC) of the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore. As always, there are plenty of changes, improvements and new things at the event. The event itself is in two major parts: - - The Main Conference, which is on December 6/7/8 (Thu/Fri/Sat) - - "Project Days", which are on December 4/5 (Tue/Wed) The formats of each of these are very different from each other, but both are integral parts of the event. Both will take place at the main venue. THE MAIN CONFERENCE The Main Conference (Dec 6/7/8) is similar to the format of the event in previous years, with some dramatic differences: No Tracks: Unlike in previous years, the main conference will not have tracks. Each session will be self-contained. While talks will still be classified according to the broad topic, they will not all be concentrated in one hall. This will encourage movement between halls and getting exposed to a wider variety of topics. Talk slots: Each slot will be 90 minutes instead of the usual 60 minutes. However, this does not mean that talks will be that long - each talk will be about 45 minutes talk time, and about 30 minutes discussion time. And there is a 15 minute buffer between talk slots to allow audiences (and speakers) to move between halls, grab a coffee or a snack, etc. In addition, the main conference will only use the 750, 120, and 90 seater halls. The 250 seater is still being considered - we will use it only if the number of high-quality talks selected exceeds our capacity. The 60 seater hall will not be used for talks (we have other plans for it). Talk Depth: The Main Conference will differentiate itself from previous years in the way talks are selected. Most of the talks will be by recognised experts in their fields. Because our Talk Slot format dramatically reduces the number of talks from previous years, we can afford to be choosy. And we will be. While we will still have a formal Call for Participation (CfP) for all talks, many talks will be invited, and others will be brutally scrutinised for depth, context and value to audiences. Talk Feedback System: In addition, we are introducing a talk rating/feedback system that will allow people to comment on and rate talks online after the talk completes. The feedback system will be moderated and authenticated (you know, to prevent our friends selling body-part enhancements from turning this into a market place :), but the comments will be public and permanent. This will achieve two things: - - The feedbacks for each talk will act as a reference for the speakers, if they need to prove their bonafides as speakers, they simply have to point at the FOSS.IN site where information about the talk and the feedback from the audiences will be recorded. - - This will encourage speakers to be far better prepared than some have been in the past. A last-minute preparation speaker is almost certainly going to get bad feedback, so the tag "was a speaker at FOSS.IN" can work against the speaker if s/he wasn't prepared, but work wonders for those speakers who do prepare, deliver an in-depth talk and who interacts with the audience. Feedback will be on a per-talk basis, not per-speaker, but multiple-talks per speaker will be an exception anyway - you'd have to be a superstar to achieve that. :) Focus: Both the Main conference and Project Days (described below) will focus on development and contribution to FOSS Projects. General talks will be limited to a few, and in general the nature/background of the speaker will decide whether the talk will be selected. As it was last year, advocacy and basic introductory talks will not be accepted. This is to avoid the "preaching to the choir" problem, as well as avoid duplicating the efforts of other FOSS events in India. PROJECT DAYS: Project Days (Dec 4/5) are new to FOSS.IN. Loosely based on the mini-conferences made popular by events such as Linux.conf.au (LCA), these will be an implementation of the "topics" idea proposed in 2005. Project Days will be full day sessions on a single topic, and the topic will be a specific FOSS project. Led by project leaders/contributors, the sessions will expose audiences to the current stateand future plans of the project, and show where and how people can get involved. Workshops are encouraged to be part of such sessions. The number of projects will be limited. As the 750 seater hall will not be used for Project Days sessions, sessions will take place in the 60/90/120 and 250 seater halls. That means there can be (2 days x 4 halls)=8 Project Days Sessions. To makeit clear what we are looking at, here are some examples of Project Day Sessions: KDE, Gnome, Fedora, Ubuntu/Debian, OpenOffice, IndLinux, etc. Here are examples of topics that are NOT eligible for a Project Days Session: Web Development, Developing in PHP/Python/Perl/Ruby, System Administration, etc. If look closely, will that we are targeting contribution to the project, not deployment of the project. For example, "Developing Python" is a good topic, "Developing with Python" is not. Talk slots: Talk slots will be 1 hour in length, with no more than 45 minutes talk time. This works because unlike the Main conference, all talks related to the topic are in the same hall. However, actual distribution of talks will be decided by both Team FOSS.IN and the Session organizers. Since there will also be workshops involved, things have to be a bit more flexible. Talk/Workshop selection: The actual Project Day sessions will be decided over the next two weeks. First, discuss on the mailing list, identify topics, scope of topics and who possible speakers could be. Next, formal Project Days Session Proposals have to be made. These proposals will be evaluated for completeness, scope, context and other factors, very similar to the way talks will be selected for the Main Conference. The 8 sessions will then be selected, session organizers appointed and sessions will be announced, and the CfP will open. People will now be able to submit talk proposals, choosing either the Main Conference or one of the Project Day sessions. OTHER FEATURES: The FOSS.IN HackCenter: The Hack Center is a new addition to FOSS.IN this year. It is a large area which will be open throughout the conference duration, from 9:00am to 7:00pm, where people can get together to work on FOSS projects. The Center will be provided with PCs, power, switched networks and internet connectivity, tables and chairs. Rules There are a few rules that are expected to be followed: 1. This is not a download or surfing centre. People are not expected to settle in and use the bandwidth to download stuff from the net. The area is provided for people to get together to work on FOSS projects. 2. PCs provided will be few. In general, there will be one PC per group - people are encouraged to bring their own laptops. 3. This is not a general community assembly hall. People are requested to only use this hall for actual development work, not for general sit-downs and discussions. For discussions, BoF tents are provided. BoFs: Birds-of-a-feather sessions will happen throughout the main conference, in semi-open tents equipped with wireless LAN, power and whiteboards. PARTY at FOSS.IN: New to FOSS.IN is a social evening on Friday, the 7th of December. The party will take place at an off-site location, close to the event venue (actual venue will be announced close to the event). This party is open to all participants of FOSS.IN - speakers, delegates, exhibitors, sponsors and of course volunteers. There will be a nominal cover charge that will be paid by people wishing to attend the party, and it is optional - only people who wish to attend will have to pay. Exhibition: As every year, there will be an exhibition of commercial and non-commercial, FOSS-related products. Details will appear on the website. COSTS: As every year, we are restricting costs to cover only direct expenses on delegates. Because of the multi-part nature of the conference, conference fees will be as follows: 1. Main Conference only : Rs.500 2. Project Days only : Rs.300 3. Main Conference + Project Days: Rs.750 4. Optional Party at FOSS.IN: TBA Conditions: Conference Swag (like last year's mug, T-shorts, etc.) is only for people attending the main conference. All packages include Lunch, tea/coffee and snacks for each day. Corporate Support Package: In addition, there is an optional "Corporate Support" package, to help companies support the event. This package is identical package 3 above (Main Conference + Project Days), at Rs.3000 per head. This package is optional and meant for organizations who wish to help support the event. Attendance of the Party at FOSS.IN is included in the package, as well as all other benefits. In addition, all passes and other materials will be sent to the organization before the event, so that such sponsored attendees will not have to stand in the queue to register at the conference. Additional funds raised this way will go towards additional facilities for delegates, subsidising the party, etc. Travel Assistance: As usual, we have a limited budget for aiding selected speakers to travel to Bangalore. Speakers are requested to first attempt to get sponsorship from other sources before asking for Travel Assistance. All speakers at the event (Main Conference or Project days) get complimentary passes to the event, and other speaker-specific goodies. WEBSITE: The website for the event will open in the next 24 hours. It will not contain all details yet - this will improve as we pin down various things, and as feedback and suggestions come in on the mailing list. You are best served by adding http://foss.in/rss to your newsreader of choice to keep track of changes on the website, and of course to subscribe to the FOSS.IN mailing list. This note does not cover a lot of details, so feel free to start asking questions, discussing things, making suggestions, etc. Note that not every suggestion can be implemented, so don't take it personal if we have to reject one. Also note that FOSS.IN is one of four international FOSS events (the others being Linux.Conf.Au, OLS and now Linuxconf.EU), and because of this there are certain things we can do, and some which we cannot. As usual, we ask people to leave the politics at the door, and help make this an enjoyable event for everyone. A lot of hard work has gone into this event already, and a lot more will happen in the months leading up to it. For now, the best way to help is to spread the word (buttons, banners, etc. will be on the website, as will be PDF brochures, posters, etc.), and to discuss on the FOSS.IN mailing list. Please remember - this is an to get people get involved in FOSS development and contribution. Our primary objective is to get more Indians involved, and to get them to interact with people from all over the world. Expect a lot more news from us as time goes by. Tons of stuff up our sleeves. :) Cheerio! Atul - -- Atul Chitnis Project Lead FOSS.IN http://foss.in - -- The List Rules : http://foss.in/list-rules The Event Site : http://foss.in The Event Planet : http://planet.foss.in The Event Channel : #foss.in on irc.freenode.net The Event List : http://foss.in/list - -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGtqP7XQZpNTcrCzMRAkLMAJ9dWzHMx2K5wt3Xi79wZYlEO9bjRACgpdSm ImmqWuXYWoWp+qUayAS43mY= =aLz5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 6 04:41:48 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:41:48 -0400 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: <20070805234948.1F7BF731B1@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1186375308.3629.7.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 22:49 -0400, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > I am only trying to help Fedora become the OS that Ubuntu hasn't been > able to live up to. Ubuntu has so much going for it, Fedora is only > now catching up but it needs to be more known. Fedora is pretty well known. And Red Hat even more so. > What I hope to do with linuxglobe, is to promote Fedora and the other > Linux OSes out there that aren't related to Ubuntu. Why exclude Ubuntu? Isn't "exclusion" something that is practiced in the commercial software world? I don't mean go out of your way to include Ubuntu, but don't include all distros but Ubuntu. That's "exclusionary practices." Now that's half-joking, but also half-serious. I hope you see my point. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 6 04:47:44 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:47:44 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 23:14 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > And that almost proves my point in the earlier message (I should have > waited to see this message and post right here... I apologize for being > hasty. And I'll ask the same question, again ... Why not SmartPM then? Most people don't realize what Smart focuses on. And they don't realize who developed and is behind Smart. ;) # yum list |grep -i smart fedora-package-config-smart.i386 7-8.1 updates ... smart.i386 0.50-46.fc7 updates smart-gui.i386 0.50-46.fc7 updates ... I haven't checked if Smart fully supports multi-arch (i386 on x86-64), although I was able to use it on Fedora Core 6 x86-64 and Fedora 7 x86-64 without issues. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 6 05:22:05 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 00:22:05 -0500 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> Bryan J. Smith escribi?: > On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 23:14 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > >> And that almost proves my point in the earlier message (I should have >> waited to see this message and post right here... I apologize for being >> hasty. >> > > And I'll ask the same question, again ... > Why not SmartPM then? > > Most people don't realize what Smart focuses on. > And they don't realize who developed and is behind Smart. ;) > > # yum list |grep -i smart > fedora-package-config-smart.i386 7-8.1 updates > ... > smart.i386 0.50-46.fc7 updates > smart-gui.i386 0.50-46.fc7 updates > ... > > I haven't checked if Smart fully supports multi-arch (i386 on x86-64), > although I was able to use it on Fedora Core 6 x86-64 and Fedora 7 > x86-64 without issues. > > > That's why I posted that e-mail... I was merely focusing on the two "main" package managers for the two main community centric distributions (Debian and Fedora)... Didn't think of the "gray area" right away. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 6 06:24:04 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:54:04 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B69E78.4010406@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> <46B69E78.4010406@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46B6BE84.4020507@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > The times I've filed RFEs for stuff like making pirut to be more > informative of a variety of things that CLI YUM does (for example, total > size of download, individual package size, etc) are not mere "cosmetic" > changes, they have a direct impact in every day's use (for example in > pup it would help quite a bit to prioritize updates and estimate > download times). Another thing that NEEDS to get implemented in > Pirut/pup is a speed meter and a "mirror change" mechanism (just like > ctrl+c for CLI YUM) to: a) be able to estimate the time of > updates/downloads and b) be able to switch to faster mirrors when a > package is getting too slow download speeds. Another proposed feature I > remember filing was a mechanism to "manage" multiple repositories right > within Pirut. At most I got an "It is planned" answer, but no status on > how or when will it be implemented. All in all, the tools are fine, but > they need much more polish still. Use bugzilla. A rant here doesn't change anything. The Apt page already explains the choice of Yum in detail. Repository management has been discussed in fedora-devel if you want to know the details. Rahul From igorm5 at vip.hr Mon Aug 6 07:22:17 2007 From: igorm5 at vip.hr (Igor Jagec) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:22:17 +0200 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B6CC29.4020803@vip.hr> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Why not SmartPM then? There was an serious issue about SmartPM, but it seems to be solved. http://tracker.labix.org/issue268 > smart.i386 0.50-46.fc7 updates > smart-gui.i386 0.50-46.fc7 updates The issue above applies to that version. We'll see if the problem is really solved in 0.51 when the update will be pushed into F7 updates. > I haven't checked if Smart fully supports multi-arch (i386 on x86-64), I think it does, but I can't be sure since I use 32-bit version of F7. -- Igor Jagec From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 6 10:36:11 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:36:11 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 00:22 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > That's why I posted that e-mail... I was merely focusing on the two > "main" package managers for the two main community centric distributions > (Debian and Fedora)... Didn't think of the "gray area" right away. First off, I don't know what you mean by "gray area." SmartPM was basically started by the guys behind Apt-RPM because of various deficiencies in resolution, lack of a standard GUI in package managers, and in the hope for some On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 09:22 +0200, Igor Jagec wrote: > There was an serious issue about SmartPM, but it seems to be solved. > http://tracker.labix.org/issue268 Secondly, I was *NOT* saying Smart was "better." I was merely saying, "why not SmartPM then?" I often like to answer a question/recommendation with another question. E.g., I did this with people who were critical of LPI on testing Sendmail when they started saying, "why not Exim?" by saying "why not Postfix then?" I hear so many people saying "Apt-RPM! Apt-RPM! I love Synaptic!" not realizing there are some serious considerations and issues with integration into Anaconda and other Python-based components (including the fact that the legacy up2date RHN facility was to be replaced). Smart is at least based on Python, and has some related facilities/compatibilities. Furthermore, Smart's GTK+ GUI is almost a rip of Synaptic. I'm not going to lie and say it's "the best of both words," but I wish some Apt-RPM/Synaptic fanboys would stop and realize it might be a better option for Anaconda-Python centric Fedora. On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 11:54 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Use bugzilla. A rant here doesn't change anything. The Apt page already > explains the choice of Yum in detail. Repository management has been > discussed in fedora-devel if you want to know the details. Unfortunately people don't realize those real, real design and decision constraints. They don't realize how much boils down to the amount of existing Anaconda focus and the RHN requirements. Again, I wasn't saying Smart was "better," I was merely asking the Apt-RPM fanboys why they continue to ignore Smart (let alone the other considerations). -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From igorm5 at vip.hr Mon Aug 6 11:19:13 2007 From: igorm5 at vip.hr (Igor Jagec) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:19:13 +0200 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B703B1.4020406@vip.hr> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 09:22 +0200, Igor Jagec wrote: >> There was an serious issue about SmartPM, but it seems to be solved. >> http://tracker.labix.org/issue268 > Secondly, I was *NOT* saying Smart was "better." I was merely saying, > "why not SmartPM then?" I often like to answer a > question/recommendation with another question. E.g., I did this with > people who were critical of LPI on testing Sendmail when they started > saying, "why not Exim?" by saying "why not Postfix then?" Ok, I was just pointing out about the issue. > I hear so many people saying "Apt-RPM! Apt-RPM! I love Synaptic!" not Well, I do not prefer AptRPM and Synaptic. I like SmartPM best, but the issue above is the reason why I use Yum, even if it is very slow. At least it works fine for me. BTW the patch for the SmartPM issue still hasn't been applied upstream, so I'll have to wait a bit. Cheers! -- Igor Jagec From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 6 11:30:22 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:30:22 -0400 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <46B703B1.4020406@vip.hr> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B703B1.4020406@vip.hr> Message-ID: <1186399822.3629.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 13:19 +0200, Igor Jagec wrote: > Ok, I was just pointing out about the issue. Oh, I know. And I appreciate the bug report, as I didn't know about it. Just understand I often have a tendency to try to get people to think that there isn't "only one alternative." Of course, I'm also someone who votes my conscience too. I don't give into the "oh, a vote for YUM is a vote against Apt-RPM" or "oh, a vote for Apt-RPM is a vote against YUM" type non-sense. If I like something, I use it. XFCE would be another, perfect example. > Well, I do not prefer AptRPM and Synaptic. I like SmartPM best, but the > issue above is the reason why I use Yum, even if it is very slow. I think YUM's speed is over-demonized. At most, I wish there was an option to discretely decide when to sync with the repositories, like in Apt. And there are other considerations too. But, for the most part, it does work. And when not, a "yum clean all" takes care of everything. Not ideal, but it is a "well-known, good starting point." -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Aug 6 12:56:36 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:56:36 -0400 Subject: YUM with elementary meta-data versioning (revision, time, tag) -- WAS: YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186399822.3629.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B703B1.4020406@vip.hr> <1186399822.3629.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1186404996.3153.23.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 07:30 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > I think YUM's speed is over-demonized. At most, I wish there was an > option to discretely decide when to sync with the repositories, like > in Apt. And there are other considerations too. Okay, let's switch gears _away_ from the "home consumer" aspects and start looking at Fedora's _real_ value at enterprises. Like it or not, Fedora is the staple of not only RHEL, but it's core technologies are what enterprises deploy. - What enterprises would like out of YUM (at least my experience) Expanding on the "discrete" comment, I once implemented a simple set of Bash scripts to maintain elementary versioning in YUM repositories. I did it because I wanted to get away from using separate repositories. At the same time, it was backward compatible with normal usage. My Bash-based hack wasn't integrated with the YUM client itself, but there is no reason it can't be. - Ultra-simple ECM in the repository ... >From Fedora's standpoint, keeping updates, updates-testing, development, etc... in separate repositories makes sense. But in an enterprise, it just does not. I want to have my enterprise configuration management (ECM) in the same "release" repository. I want to be able to go back to any state of the repository by ... - Revision (incremented each time the meta-data is re-created) - Time (merely uses the latest revision available at that time) - Tag (label on a revision for easier usage) This can be done 100% with the meta-data and is rather simple (with one YUM-RPM caveat, see below). You simply have multiple meta-data files with a revision appended -- e.g., ".(rev)", as well as a single file with a list of all tags, e.g., ".tags". Or, to be even more advanced, you can leverage RCS by having a single ",v" file -- which stores all revisions as well as tags. For backward compatibility, the latest is always the normal meta-data filename(s) of the repository -- in the case of a RCS ",v" meta-data file, it would be the "checked-out" version. - What this buys enterprises? I can now mix my "testing" of new package roll-outs (possibly under integration and/or regression test) with my "early adopters" as well as the "default, lateset release." I also may have different departments or projects on different "releases" and those could also be tagged, without having to build symlinks/hard link scripts, among other things. But most importantly, this is _not_ a difficult hack. I'm not talking about advanced configuration management, I'm talking about ... o Maintaining a history of meta-data revisions in the repo tools (either individual files or a RCS ",v" file) o Maintaining a set of tags to those revision files in the repo tools (again, either a tag index file or its in the RCS ",v" file) o Having YUM clients being able to fetch by revision, date or tag (revision is easy, date resolution to revision is easy, and tag is easy) And for backward compatibility with older, "pre-ECM YUM", the repo tools throw out the standard meta-data file(s). - The one YUM-RPM caveat / limitation Now the one limitation is that you can't get "clean reverts" and people would need to be aware of that. I.e., if you're system is already at revision 49, YUM-RPM is not going to be able to take you back to revision 47 automagically, you can only go forward -- at least "cleanly." Otherwise would require heavy modification to YUM-RPM, at least from what I've seen. I'm not advocating that effort (although it would be nice in the future -- and one reason I like Smart's, although limited, features here), so I'm not looking for anyone to bother. I'm only talking about offering updates by repository ... - Revision - Time - Tag Based updates, of at least the current revision or later of the system. If someone is at revision 49 and they try to update to revision 47, or a date or tag that is before revision 49, then it doesn't allow that. I don't like maintaining separate repositories for the same set of ECM releases, often in the flow of "integration/regression" testing, "early adopter/tester" and "main release" -- as well as being able to setup an older state of the package repository that was a "known, good quality." -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 6 14:20:35 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7d76c$d64a1e90$82de5bb0$@id.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I would have thought that the Fedora Board would have considered that > question and possibly answered it in their own heads. It's one of the > long standing question who is the target market. Now people can say > it's aimed at devs but to me it seems like Fedora is very strong in the > server market but on the desktop side of things it doesn't go all the > way. Leaving Codecs out of it cause to me that's irrelevant. The primary target market is people who love free software, and who want to work *actively* to make free software better. All other markets are secondary. Important, but secondary. > Using PCLinuxOS or Ubuntu as an example they have pointed themselves > directly at the desktop market and their server or Ubuntu's server setup > isn't as good as Fedora's (My opinion = SELinux, stability and ease of > install). Fedora to me as always looked and felt like a Corporate Desktop > and or Corporate Server more so than a home desktop. Yet by the same token > there are some significant enhancements in the desktop part that I have > thought damn they are good. > > So I suppose it's back to the question who is Fedora targeting as an > audience? Should Fedora separate out certain aspects to cater to certain > areas? Like coming up with ideas for desktop enhancements and a group for > Server enhancements. With the Live-CD's I believe that's a HUGE step in the > right direction. This is as much a question for the greater Fedora community as it is for the Red Hat members thereof. If the community decides that they want to see more desktop-focused work, there are areas where dedicated community folk can start *right now*. Coming up with a suitable replacement for Pirut, for example. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 6 14:29:59 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Listen, all projects stand on the shoulders of giants. Most people > don't care. They care about marketing. I think Fedora should continue > to and keep doing what it does best, feed the leading edge developments. > This is what I liked about Red Hat Linux prior as well. The model is > very sound and very trusted to us "old dogs." Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and therefore making the lives of contributors easier. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From thebs413 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 15:02:48 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 08:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <476855.52253.qm@web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > The primary target market is people who love free software, and who > want to work *actively* to make free software better. All other > markets are secondary. Important, but secondary. I don't think people realize how important it is to have a truly free, indemnification issue free, 100% redistributable distribution that can be proliferated and redistributed by others. I have hardly shared any my contributions, been largely a "leech" when I deploy and utilize Fedora and add my own RPMs, etc... For this, I continue to salute Fedora, like I did Red Hat Linux prior. It's a Godsend in a very, very under-appreciated aspect of Linux distributions. I'll defend select, other distros for the same reasons as well -- but I professionally find Fedora's release model and alignment the most advantageous. Hopefully I'll have a position in the future that will let me directly contribute to Fedora as a small part of my paid job function (like I was on Debian long ago). Until then, I've always hesitated to be a formal maintainer (which would be on my own time) because I can't guarantee any upkeep. I know, poor excuse, especially with all the benefits I have directly reaped from Fedora (and money I've made as a consultant). > Coming up with a suitable replacement for Pirut, for example. Referring back to the aforementioned sign at the animal shelter I mentioned. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From thebs413 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 20:14:08 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <23891.28354.qm@web32902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we > should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential > contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and > therefore making the lives of contributors easier. Oh, just realized the obviousness of that truth! Man, even I got "too focused" on solely "user base" before you pointed that out. ;) BTW, I recently had an off-list e-mail and realized history was partially repeating itself. I went back to my archives from 1999 and, especially, 2000-2003. Then I saw the same pattern. - New off-shoot distro gains fan-fare, "better than Red Hat" - New off-shoot distro offers major, commercial support - Off-shoot distro strays too far from original, stable base - Off-shoot distro as trouble maintaining updates, upgrades, development after its 4th release and fork away from original, stable base - Off-shoot distro has lay-offs, drops several support offerings - Off-shoot distro starts merging with other distro companies Last time I checked recently, PCLinux OS is still "picking up the pieces" of all that. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From thebs413 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 6 20:24:03 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu (Clarification) In-Reply-To: <23891.28354.qm@web32902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <616632.18361.qm@web32910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Bryan J. Smith" wrote: > Last time I checked recently, PCLinux OS is still "picking up the > pieces" of all that. ;) Okay, I had better clarify that ... PCLinux OS has "taken over the home consumer mindshare" of that other, allegedly, now former, "new, better than Red Hat" off-shoot distro. Greg hit it on the nose IMHO. There is a reason why Debian and Fedora still get a lot of contributors. That's because that is their focus. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Aug 6 20:47:38 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:47:38 +0200 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu (Clarification) In-Reply-To: <616632.18361.qm@web32910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <616632.18361.qm@web32910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46B788EA.9010902@kanarip.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Greg hit it on the nose IMHO. There is a reason why Debian and > Fedora still get a lot of contributors. That's because that is their > focus. ;) > I'm glad you appreciate the focus. Amazed, but pleasantly surprised. I'm often not looking back as much as anyone else may be; With Fedora moving forward all the time that is a perfect fit. But, as we all seem to agree, focus does it. Focus is good, and great people with focus tend to do even greater things. I hope though this focus in any number of days from now will be the same focus it has been ever since I joined this world. Focus may blur sometimes. It happens. Maybe because someone else is doing better in some way or getting higher numbers somehow. Point is it cannot or should not get us distracted. If you spend your days helping cats [1], it's your hobby and you're life's focus, would you rather pursue to convince the world to help cats rather then dogs, or actually help cats? Would you care if the dog helpers get to help more dogs then you get to help cats? Whether their dogs have a better color scheme? Warmer fur? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip [1] Max Spevack's Blog - "on leadership and volunteer management" http://spevack.livejournal.com/23189.html From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Aug 7 04:58:49 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:58:49 -0500 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B6BE84.4020507@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> <46B69E78.4010406@prodigy.net.mx> <46B6BE84.4020507@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B7FC09.3080001@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Use bugzilla. A rant here doesn't change anything. The Apt page > already explains the choice of Yum in detail. Repository management > has been discussed in fedora-devel if you want to know the details. > > Rahul > That is the issue. I *have* use bugzilla, but just as easily been disregarded with numerous arguments (not satisfying enough, but, hey! I'm no programmer nor maintainer, so I can't complain about the reasons, right?). At any rate, it was pretty much clear that there was "not a need" for many of the enhancements I proposed. Again, who am I to argue with the maintainers/programmers? From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Aug 7 05:00:38 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 00:00:38 -0500 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B7FC76.1000200@prodigy.net.mx> Bryan J. Smith escribi?: > On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 00:22 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > >> That's why I posted that e-mail... I was merely focusing on the two >> "main" package managers for the two main community centric distributions >> (Debian and Fedora)... Didn't think of the "gray area" right away. >> > > First off, I don't know what you mean by "gray area." SmartPM was > basically started by the guys behind Apt-RPM because of various > deficiencies in resolution, lack of a standard GUI in package managers, > and in the hope for some > > Thinking of Fedora and Debian as black and white (not necessarily respectively), anything in between would be the "gray area". From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Aug 7 05:05:17 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 00:05:17 -0500 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> Greg Dekoenigsberg escribi?: > > Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we > should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential > contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and > therefore making the lives of contributors easier. > > --g > Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of complaints from "would be" contributors about just that. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 7 09:12:48 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:42:48 +0530 Subject: Contributors In-Reply-To: <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46B83790.3050004@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > > Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for > contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard > bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is > difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others > are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many > Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of > complaints from "would be" contributors about just that. So let's talk about that. In a different thread with more details but let's talk about that. Rahuk From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 7 09:16:24 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:46:24 +0530 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis In-Reply-To: <46B7FC09.3080001@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <46B63873.2050809@fedoraproject.org> <46B69E78.4010406@prodigy.net.mx> <46B6BE84.4020507@fedoraproject.org> <46B7FC09.3080001@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46B83868.3040500@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Rahul Sundaram escribi?: >> Use bugzilla. A rant here doesn't change anything. The Apt page >> already explains the choice of Yum in detail. Repository management >> has been discussed in fedora-devel if you want to know the details. >> >> Rahul >> > > That is the issue. I *have* use bugzilla, but just as easily been > disregarded with numerous arguments (not satisfying enough, but, hey! > I'm no programmer nor maintainer, so I can't complain about the reasons, > right?). At any rate, it was pretty much clear that there was "not a > need" for many of the enhancements I proposed. Again, who am I to argue > with the maintainers/programmers? Assumptions and arguments aren't going to yield any benefits. So that's true. The relevant maintainers are pretty busy too. I got a guy sending patches now which is pretty effective. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 7 09:40:51 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:10:51 +0530 Subject: YUM with elementary meta-data versioning (revision, time, tag) -- WAS: YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <1186404996.3153.23.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B703B1.4020406@vip.hr> <1186399822.3629.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1186404996.3153.23.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B83E23.6000004@fedoraproject.org> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 07:30 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote: >> I think YUM's speed is over-demonized. At most, I wish there was an >> option to discretely decide when to sync with the repositories, like >> in Apt. And there are other considerations too. > > Okay, let's switch gears _away_ from the "home consumer" aspects and > start looking at Fedora's _real_ value at enterprises. Like it or not, > Fedora is the staple of not only RHEL, but it's core technologies are > what enterprises deploy. > > - What enterprises would like out of YUM (at least my experience) I would appreciate if you can take the time to post to yum lists about this. I am not sure anyone working on Yum is subscribed and watching these threads. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 7 10:07:42 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:37:42 +0530 Subject: Fedora and Creative Commons Team Up To Deliver LiveContent Distribution Message-ID: <46B8446E.9070800@fedoraproject.org> Hi We are continuing to see increasing uptake of many people who are using the new open build tools in Fedora 7 to create custom spins. Creative Commons initiative (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Livecontent) will give a more tangible benefit of Fedora's backing of open content. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070806/20070806005060.html?.v=1 "Fedora 7 features a completely open source build process that greatly simplifies the creation of appliances," said Jack Aboutboul, community engineer for Fedora at Red Hat. "We encourage Fedora 7 users to create custom distributions that fit their individual needs and are excited that Creative Commons is making use of this capability within Fedora 7 to enable the liberation of content and provide free licensed software to all Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 7 12:58:33 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 08:58:33 -0400 Subject: YUM with elementary meta-data versioning (revision, time, tag) -- WAS: YUM v. APT v. SmartPM In-Reply-To: <46B83E23.6000004@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B5BCBF.8060306@fedoraproject.org> <46B62D93.50506@thefinalzone.com> <1186357343.3268.13.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B661FC.1030802@fedoraproject.org> <46B6A02D.3010205@prodigy.net.mx> <1186375664.3629.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B6AFFD.3070406@prodigy.net.mx> <1186396571.3629.41.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B703B1.4020406@vip.hr> <1186399822.3629.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <1186404996.3153.23.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B83E23.6000004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1186491513.3405.2.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2007-08-07 at 15:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I would appreciate if you can take the time to post to yum lists about > this. I am not sure anyone working on Yum is subscribed and watching > these threads. Yeah, I really need to get on those lists. I have about three (3) areas where I'd like to start contributing, one is on YUM -- especially since it is a cornerstone to ECM. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 7 13:28:31 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 09:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg escribi?: >> >> Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we should >> be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential contributors. Fedora >> needs to be more about contributors, and therefore making the lives of >> contributors easier. > > Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for > contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard > bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is difficult, > just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others are not so > bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many Fedora > contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of complaints from > "would be" contributors about just that. Anyone want to gather the specific complaints in that regard? I know we're working on some issues -- improving the CLA, working on a new account management system, other small things -- but knowing the pain points of new contributors is always important. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 7 15:23:20 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 20:53:20 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7 Chosen as LiveContent CD Platform Message-ID: <46B88E68.6040803@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://www.eweek.com/article2/0%2c1895%2c2167675%2c00.asp "The Fedora 7 Linux distribution has been chosen as the platform for the Creative Commons LiveContent CD, an initiative to showcase free, open-source software and Creative Commons-licensed multimedia content" "Fedora 7, which is the result of community-based open-source collaboration, has a new build capacity that allows for the creation of custom distributions and individual appliances." Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Tue Aug 7 16:20:42 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 00:20:42 +0800 Subject: How to compete against Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <000601c7d90e$e7963960$b6c2ac20$@id.au> -----Original Message----- From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Greg Dekoenigsberg Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2007 9:29 PM To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: How to compete against Ubuntu On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg escribi?: >> >> Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we >> should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential >> contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and >> therefore making the lives of contributors easier. > > Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for > contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard > bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is > difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others > are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many > Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of > complaints from "would be" contributors about just that. Anyone want to gather the specific complaints in that regard? I know we're working on some issues -- improving the CLA, working on a new account management system, other small things -- but knowing the pain points of new contributors is always important. --g I'll add some bits but put simply I know from my experience in trying to package some things that documentation is the big one. Every time I package something and let someone have a look at it I find that I?m missing something that isn't documented properly. That?s my biggest frustration.....gnome-yum or yum-gnome scrollkeeper? Yet I can't find anything relating to scrollkeeper and packages. I know it's improving but that would be a start. One thing Debian does really well is that it has a plethora of documentation on how to contribute and everything relating to the packaging process. I've got other questions as well but yeah while it doesn't relate directly to bureaucracy I think it relates to contributing. My $0.02 Marc From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 7 15:42:01 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 15:42:01 +0000 Subject: Fedora's mid-life crisis -- YUM v. APT v. SmartPM Message-ID: <1331855887-1186501382-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-846101501-@bxe018.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Paolo Mureddu, Gian wrote: > Thinking of Fedora and Debian as black and white (not necessarily > respectively), anything in between would be the "gray area". This is going to be my last comment on this subject. To start ... I tend to not try to use abstract terms and stick with tangeable ones. E.g., as an electrical engineer, I know anyone who uses the term "renewable energies" doesn't have the faintest ideal about them. Same deal here, I don't like to use shades of the spectrum. I think Debian and Fedora come down to their simple realities. They are established, proven, well-regarded (among long-time Linux consultants, sysadmins, etc...) with a steady stream of contributors, solutions providers, etc... and a lot of the reason is the release model. Red Hat Linux 4.0 through Fedora 7 is 20 releases, all done very similarly. Rawhide through Beta/Test on to the 6 month typical cycle (sometimes 5, a few 7 and even 8 months) for a full decade now. And that includes the 3rd or so release after 18 months being the "trailing edge" and well trusted and standardized on. And when companies showed they were willing to pay for 5+ years of support by buying SuSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) as a "separate product," Red Hat dropped its SLA model after Red Hat Linux 6.2 "E" and we got a separate product. But the community, development, package test (Rawhide/Devel), integration/regression test (Beta/Test) is unchanged. It has been, and only continues to be increasingly, community-based and driven, with strategic direction and objectives focused on the 18 month, stable release. It's easy for one to say "community focused" and its highly subjective. Something has to drive that and, as we saw with one too many Red Hat and Debian off-shoots, defining that long-term is a real issue. A lot of these off-shoots leverage the testing of Debian/Red Hat to start. But by the 4th or so release, they've forked so much they lose that leverage and find themselves in the realm of their own integration and regression testing. That's not "fun" stuff in the traditional engineering lifecycle. And it only gets worse. Software built (ABI) or even written (API) for older releases no longer run on newer releases, there are compatibility and upgrade issues too. Repositories quickly become "dumping grounds" and that's when it hits. The distro, correctly, tries to enforce some basic release controls. And guess what? That's when the "newness" wears off and they aren't "fun" anymore. And those contributors go "they are as 'bad' as Debian/Fedora now." Debian and Fedora aren't "new" and a lot of new maintainers balk at things, necessary evils of the traditional engineering lifecycle. One of the reasons I haven't attempted to submit my own packages or become a maintainer is because I know what repsonsibility comes with that. And if that is what others have a "problem" with Debian and Fedora (and trust me, I'm a "lurker" on many lists and I see it a lot), then we either need to "key them in" on those realities, or let them be. If they are the latter, they will get tired of Ubuntu soon, especially as more and more of the Conical criticisms take hold like those not so different from what we see of and towards Red Hat. Especially when Conical starts to "clamp down" on the "run-away" development. I've seen a lot of complainers of 7.04 from 6.06, and that's just the start. I like Xubuntu and have no problem with Ubuntu, but I think too many people are spewing the same things I've seen out of many other Debian and Red Hat / Fedora forks over the years, and those same people come back to criticize the same "new" distros they loved. The contributors and maintainers that are long-term stays are those that appreciate the processes and relase model, with all their overhead, that go into Debian and Fedora. Or they seek not to fork, but to stay aligned as closely as possible because they are fully aware of the testing load when you do not. Heck, a quick trip to the CentOS list will let you see a lot of people screaming for forks and packages, or "new features." I stupidly tried to explain things a few times on there, and only "the old dogs" seemed to know what I was talking about. Anyhoo, with that all said, people who want Apt or Smart or Foo Package Ultra-Better 3000 to be the default need to get involved. That means taking on the Anaconda integration, RHN integration, various, existing Python libraries and facilities to "drop them in," etc... People complain about the types of responses in feature requests. If you don't like the responses, contribute and prove them wrong! :) Last post on this, promise. :) -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 7 20:57:28 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 02:27:28 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7 does Creative Commons Message-ID: <46B8DCB8.3000507@fedoraproject.org> Hi Remixed content on a remixed Live cd. Note that the live cd is available at http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/torrents//ccLiveContent-1.0-i386.torrent If you are interest in open and remixed content, try and let us know your feedback. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=41503 "Fedora 7 is a community based collaboration which, boasts a modest press release, "provides the best of next-generation open source technologies". The latest edition comes packing a build capacity which lets spods cook up their own programs or what have you." Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 8 04:24:55 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 23:24:55 -0500 Subject: Contributors In-Reply-To: <46B83790.3050004@fedoraproject.org> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> <46B83790.3050004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46B94597.1050902@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: >> >> >> Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" >> for contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is >> standard bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that >> it is difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the >> "others are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to >> the many Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my >> share of complaints from "would be" contributors about just that. > > So let's talk about that. In a different thread with more details but > let's talk about that. > > Rahuk > Sorry to answer so late... First of all, the most common issue among many packagers and would be contributors is the amount of "requisites". I don't fully understand the complaint as, yes, there are a number of requisites, but then again, each distro has theirs. Another common issue seems to be the CLA, some really see it as an evil requirement... like they'd be renouncing the right to claim something their own (I certainly don't understand it that way, but it could easily be misinterpreted in that way). From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 8 06:23:50 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 02:23:50 -0400 Subject: Contributors In-Reply-To: <46B94597.1050902@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> <46B83790.3050004@fedoraproject.org> <46B94597.1050902@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1186554230.3208.2.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2007-08-07 at 23:24 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Another common issue seems to be the CLA, some > really see it as an evil requirement... like they'd be renouncing the > right to claim something their own (I certainly don't understand it that > way, but it could easily be misinterpreted in that way). Have you read some others? Like the Mozilla or OpenOffice.org ones? Heck, one could say the same about the GPL! There are licenses and agreements in the community software world. They are everywhere on all software and contributions. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 8 07:57:08 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 02:57:08 -0500 Subject: Contributors In-Reply-To: <1186554230.3208.2.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> <46B83790.3050004@fedoraproject.org> <46B94597.1050902@prodigy.net.mx> <1186554230.3208.2.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <46B97754.1020603@prodigy.net.mx> Bryan J. Smith escribi?: > > Have you read some others? > Like the Mozilla or OpenOffice.org ones? > > Heck, one could say the same about the GPL! > > There are licenses and agreements in the community software world. > They are everywhere on all software and contributions. > > > As a matter of fact, I have not. I take your word for it. And yes, the GPL might be seen as a "draconian" license for that very matter. I'm just saying what I've seen, read and heard from people that do not wish to become contributors. The two main "issues" seem to be: * Excessive bureaucracy (I somewhat agree). * CLA. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 8 13:11:52 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 09:11:52 -0400 Subject: Contributors In-Reply-To: <46B97754.1020603@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46B21E8F.1040108@kanarip.com> <13dbfe4f0708030028y17adb44bn851d60cd88a7ed0e@mail.gmail.com> <46B2F29A.6020502@kanarip.com> <556f970a0708041030x2531d1a1hcf2720d38db33e12@mail.gmail.com> <1186269378.10826.14.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <556f970a0708050959o36193d90m8e03656bd1cf68a1@mail.gmail.com> <1186357194.3268.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B7FD8D.8080601@prodigy.net.mx> <46B83790.3050004@fedoraproject.org> <46B94597.1050902@prodigy.net.mx> <1186554230.3208.2.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <46B97754.1020603@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1186578712.3208.10.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 02:57 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > As a matter of fact, I have not. I take your word for it. And yes, the > GPL might be seen as a "draconian" license for that very matter. I'm > just saying what I've seen, read and heard from people that do not wish > to become contributors. The two main "issues" seem to be: > * Excessive bureaucracy (I somewhat agree). > * CLA. And I've been around Debian as a maintainer long enough to hear similar complaints of its system. And part of Debian's system is a "Democracy" as far as maintainers go, and I've seen the case where a good maintainer was cut because someone else convinced everyone else he had to (when it was a clear personally issue, not a project, but someone used the project to further their personal issue). The Debian Free Software and Packaging Guidelines also get complaints. Everywhere you go, people will find things to disagree on. In all honesty, if people are complaining about those two (2) on Fedora, inviting them in might be futile, as they may just end up complaining and leaving anyway. Seen that before too. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 8 21:16:40 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 02:46:40 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7: Community remix Message-ID: <46BA32B8.6090806@fedoraproject.org> Hi There are folks frequently asking, can I setup a wiki the way Fedora does it? If you are trying to build a community and want to leverage the same tools and infrastructure Fedora does, this article is for you. http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/08/07/fedora-7-community-remix/#more-296 "One of the popular features of Fedora 7 is the ability to remix Fedora and build your own custom version. Now don?t get me wrong?building a new distribution is nice. But what about those who wish to create their own Fedora-based project? How do you grow a complete community in an enterprise environment or in the general public? Thanks to some of the lesser-known features, anyone can use the exact same tools that make Fedora, well? Fedora." Rahul From tchung at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 9 06:57:03 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 23:57:03 -0700 Subject: LinuxLinks Fedora 7 Review Message-ID: <369bce3b0708082357w6e83476s7c180896b395c110@mail.gmail.com> http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/2007072317404089/Fedora_7_Review_Page_1.html "Fedora 7 has seen the word "Core" trimmed from it's name. This reflects just one of several changes internally to the project. With the first ever inclusion of tools to create your own version of Fedora, Fedora 7 really reaches out to the community, quite literally. If you don't like it, then by all means change it to be the way you want. The Fedora Project has given you the power. To date this is the most successful release of Fedora in my opinion. " -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 9 13:02:45 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:32:45 +0530 Subject: Smolt profiles distro hardware use Message-ID: <46BB1075.3000007@fedoraproject.org> Hi Novell has agreed to package Smolt and make it available in their repository for their next release, 10.3 though they aren't using it in their installer. Still in discussions with Mandriva. If you have contacts in other distributions, you can drop them a mail about Smolt and CC me in the discussions. http://www.linux.com/feature/118322 "When Fedora 7 was released, one of its standout features was Smolt, an opt-in program for collecting data about users' hardware. Since then, Smolt has provided a publicly available snapshot of systems running Fedora, and is in the process of being ported to other distributions. With features being rapidly added, Smolt has the potential to offer an unprecedented wealth of information, and to aid in quality assurance, tech support, and advocacy, not only for Fedora, but for GNU/Linux in general." Rahul From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 16:31:15 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:31:15 -0400 Subject: linuxglobe media disc proposal Message-ID: linuxglobe media disc proposal I would like a list of applications that a media professional would use on Fedora, I know of some, but I like recommendations because I plan to make my own Spin in CD format that not only has those applications but themes inspired from my site, linuxglobe.wordpress.com. I want to spread the word about Fedora and this Spin might be a great way to do so! Please send a list of recommended applications to my linux blog, the winner will get the first download of the spin. I am excited about what my blog and I hope the eventual national magazine I hope to have published in a year or two. By the time Fedora 9 comes out, I hope linuxglobe WILL be a magazine that is sold in every major store in the country that sells magazines! :D Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeremy at linuxwiz.net Thu Aug 9 16:38:12 2007 From: jeremy at linuxwiz.net (Gaddis, Jeremy L.) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:38:12 -0400 Subject: linuxglobe media disc proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <536fdec90708090938j3c2548afmcfa15a4df60fba45@mail.gmail.com> On 8/9/07, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > By the time Fedora 9 comes out, I hope linuxglobe WILL be a magazine that is > sold in every major > store in the country that sells magazines! :D If the number of times you spam your URL is any indicator, at least everyone in the world will have heard of it by then. For the most part, I have no problems with people promoting their web site, but to quote yourself, "I prefer innovation". Why not put up some original content about Fedora instead of just linking to everyone else's? -- Jeremy L. Gaddis From mackay3 at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 16:58:18 2007 From: mackay3 at gmail.com (John Mackay) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:58:18 -0600 Subject: linuxglobe media disc proposal In-Reply-To: <536fdec90708090938j3c2548afmcfa15a4df60fba45@mail.gmail.com> References: <536fdec90708090938j3c2548afmcfa15a4df60fba45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5d88dfb00708090958p1f5740a9x8c38858f589a411f@mail.gmail.com> Scribus, Inkscape, Gimp, and Agave are pretty good apps. On 8/9/07, Gaddis, Jeremy L. wrote: > > On 8/9/07, Markus McLaughlin wrote: > > By the time Fedora 9 comes out, I hope linuxglobe WILL be a magazine > that is > > sold in every major > > store in the country that sells magazines! :D > > If the number of times you spam your URL is any indicator, at least > everyone in the world will have heard of it by then. > > For the most part, I have no problems with people promoting their web > site, but to quote yourself, "I prefer innovation". Why not put up > some original content about Fedora instead of just linking to everyone > else's? > > -- > Jeremy L. Gaddis > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 9 17:16:01 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 10:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: linuxglobe media disc proposal -- don't forget UFRaw, Cinepaint and plug-ins ... In-Reply-To: <5d88dfb00708090958p1f5740a9x8c38858f589a411f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <139544.3817.qm@web32901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John Mackay wrote: > Scribus, Inkscape, Gimp, and Agave are pretty good apps. Don't forget UFRaw, Cinepaint and various GIMP and other plug-ins. One of the most excellent features I have in Fedora 7 now, that I do _not_ have under Windows Explorer, is that Nautilus thumbnails my 12-bit channel depth PEF (Pentax RAW Format) files. I don't know exactly which plug-in it is, or if it's Nautilus itself, but I'm sure it works for a wide variety of 12 and 16-bit channel formats. Being able to browse right on the media, or in any GTK+/GNOME application that leverages the same Nautilus libraries, is just beautiful. You'll want to add Cinepaint as well. The GIMP's 8-bit channel depth doesn't cut it for even novice photographers like myself, much less amateur or professionals. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 9 21:07:09 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:07:09 -0500 Subject: Ref:Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal Message-ID: ---------- Encabezado original ----------- De : fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com Para : "For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com Copia : Fecha : Thu, 09 Aug 2007 10:58:18 -0600 Asunto : Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal > Scribus, Inkscape, Gimp, and Agave are pretty good apps. > I would add to that the inclusion of gimp-gap (GIMP Animation Package) From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 10 17:57:05 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:27:05 +0530 Subject: Red Hat And Its Fedora 8 Friends Message-ID: <46BCA6F1.6050002@fedoraproject.org> Hi If you haven't heard of DBus activation yet, read up on it. http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3693511 When it comes to expanding the core feature set of Fedora, though, Fedora 8 has a lot to offer. Aboutboul explained that a new dbus service launch service will aim to cut down boot time by minimizing the number of services that start when a machine powers up. On the identity side, Fedora 8 will include something called freeIPA (Identity, Policy, Audit), which is intended to be an easy way for system administrators to install, setup and administer centralized identity management and authentication. Rahul From mackay3 at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 01:26:52 2007 From: mackay3 at gmail.com (John Mackay) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:26:52 -0600 Subject: Ref:Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d88dfb00708101826x2fb2d43i5fc63631f8072877@mail.gmail.com> yup, I?ve heard about it. What about including Gimpshop? its supossed to be a GUI configuration much alike photoshop, so people can make the jump way easier. On 8/9/07, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > ---------- Encabezado original ----------- > > De : fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com > Para : "For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora > user base" fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > Copia : > Fecha : Thu, 09 Aug 2007 10:58:18 -0600 > Asunto : Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal > > > Scribus, Inkscape, Gimp, and Agave are pretty good apps. > > > > I would add to that the inclusion of gimp-gap (GIMP Animation Package) > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 02:05:41 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:05:41 -0400 Subject: Promotion of Linux is one of many tasks for me! Message-ID: When I use Fedora a lot more for my own uses, I will write more about it, since I chose it for my main Linux OS. Right now, I am trying to hook up with other writers, I am not a Programmer, just a Super User, looking for alternatives to ALL of the apps I used to use on Windoze and what I use on my MAC as well. My mission is to convert regular folks who don't know Windoze, MAC, or Linux, and convert them into Linux Users, IT guys can help me out with this task! Onward and forward! Mark McLaughlin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 03:43:43 2007 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:43:43 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement] In-Reply-To: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> References: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> On Mon, 06 Aug 2007, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sent out 12K bytes to say: > - - "Project Days", which are on December 4/5 (Tue/Wed) This si where fedora can play a major part of FOSS.in. Someone, puhlese read this document: http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days And propose A Fedora Project Day. -- Tejas Dinkar http://gja.in From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 03:52:23 2007 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:52:23 -0700 Subject: Acer to release Ubuntu Linux laptops In-Reply-To: <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186014397.24403.1.camel@Strike-Lap> <46B14359.1050000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20070811035223.GA3858@gja.in> I actually wrote this mail a while back, but sent it from the wrong email address, and it got rejected. On Thu, August 2, 2007 8:07 am, Rahul Sundaram said: > Unlikely. OEM's usually need a commercially supported product with less > moving parts and longer lifecycle which is why Dell ships RHEL, SLES and > Ubuntu (LTS) and not Fedora or even regular Ubuntu versions. Other > vendors resell these under various names too. System76 for example. I > haven't checked what Acer is doing here but I also came across this I pity the fool who mentions acer around me. Acer Laptops (at least the Travelmates in india) comes with a distro called `Linpus` which is configured to be a piece of crap. It has root only login, into text only terminal. And that too with no password is X installed? NO do wifi, networking card work? NO Does ACPI work? Ha Ha Ha ROTFLMFAO As of Fedora 5, everything on the laptop works more or less (Battery Support for the laptop works as of FC5) I could never understand why they don't just ship laptops with some decent working distro, instead of their ridiculous thing. The answer came to me while i pulled this same rant in a LUG meet. Someone speculated that they are just selling the laptop `without the windows tax on it`. They don't really expect people to use the laptop with linux on it. They expect people to pirate windows and install it. It's just that they can advertise the laptop as `comes installed with Linux` (machines with no OS installed are sometimes seen as pro-piracy) I just can't help but wonder if this bit with Ubuntu is a similar play. -- Tejas Dinkar http://gja.in From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 11 04:10:58 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:40:58 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement] In-Reply-To: <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> References: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> Message-ID: <46BD36D2.9040000@fedoraproject.org> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sent out 12K bytes to say: >> - - "Project Days", which are on December 4/5 (Tue/Wed) > > This si where fedora can play a major part of FOSS.in. > > Someone, puhlese read this document: > http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days > > And propose A Fedora Project Day. I have been thinking of doing just that but let's hear from the Fedora folks. How many of you are planning to attend this event? How many want to be a speaker and on what topic. Reply here or drop me a mail offlist and if there is enough folks interested, I can organize a project day. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 11 04:06:25 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:06:25 -0400 Subject: Ref:Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal In-Reply-To: <5d88dfb00708101826x2fb2d43i5fc63631f8072877@mail.gmail.com> References: <5d88dfb00708101826x2fb2d43i5fc63631f8072877@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46BD35C1.2000702@prodigy.net.mx> John Mackay escribi?: > yup, I?ve heard about it. What about including Gimpshop? its supossed > to be a GUI configuration much alike photoshop, so people can make the > jump way easier. Actually I'm one of those who "despise" GimpShop, as I learned how to use a graphics program using The GIMP, not PhotoShop. Now I find PhotoShop's tools and layout "counter intuitive", hehe From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 11 04:08:46 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:08:46 -0400 Subject: Red Hat And Its Fedora 8 Friends In-Reply-To: <46BCA6F1.6050002@fedoraproject.org> References: <46BCA6F1.6050002@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46BD364E.9050804@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Hi > > > If you haven't heard of DBus activation yet, read up on it. > > http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3693511 > > When it comes to expanding the core feature set of Fedora, though, > Fedora 8 has a lot to offer. Aboutboul explained that a new dbus > service launch service will aim to cut down boot time by minimizing > the number of services that start when a machine powers up. > > On the identity side, Fedora 8 will include something called freeIPA > (Identity, Policy, Audit), which is intended to be an easy way for > system administrators to install, setup and administer centralized > identity management and authentication. > > Rahul > Yay! This sounds VERY interesting indeed! Will have to read more on this and actually give it a try as soon as it may be available. From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sat Aug 11 04:18:43 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 00:18:43 -0400 Subject: Promotion of Linux is one of many tasks for me! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46BD38A3.4060605@prodigy.net.mx> Markus McLaughlin escribi?: > When I use Fedora a lot more for my own uses, I will write more about > it, since I chose it for my main Linux OS. Right now, I am trying to > hook up with other writers, I am not a Programmer, > just a Super User, looking for alternatives to ALL of the apps I used > to use on Windoze and what > I use on my MAC as well. My mission is to convert regular folks who > don't know Windoze, MAC, > or Linux, and convert them into Linux Users, IT guys can help me out > with this task! Onward and forward! > > Mark McLaughlin I really like your enthusiasm in this regard. Kudos to you! I'm very passionate, but sadly have too scarce free time to devote to any non-professional-related (aka work) projects. In person, though I'm rather passionate about Linux and particular about Fedora. Every day I find a reason why I use Fedora over other distributions, as I tend to use a lot of distributions to keep a "sane balance" in my objectivity. Maybe some time I'll send you a quick write up when time permits, I actually look forward to see what you come up with this project, and hopefully you'll be able to turn it into a full blown magazine. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Aug 12 14:22:39 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:22:39 +0200 Subject: thinking about the Fedora brand (WARNING: this is for you) In-Reply-To: <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> References: <1186020777.3521.395.camel@erato.phig.org> <1186121188.998.200.camel@cutter> <9d2c731f0708030355x267dc139udec94528c7ae8a23@mail.gmail.com> <46B3337D.4070707@redhat.com> <46B33B06.8000206@fedoraproject.org> <46B34212.7040200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1186928559.5251.4.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le vendredi 03 ao?t 2007 ? 20:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram a ?crit : > "Free world" is a bit too vague too and a bit amusing with the > patents on software situation. Free world has been so much abused by USSA politicians it has a definite bad connotation in many countries. I'd avoid it. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Aug 12 16:53:48 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:53:48 +0200 Subject: [Ambassadors] Fedora Project Sign for GITEX Demo Pod In-Reply-To: <59e007ed0707290912u367b21ddr2ee7a028e24f18a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0707270855n77724008ie242297f28598377@mail.gmail.com> <46AB3D8C.9080704@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0707281013wb48a31egdf308701efe482d6@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0707281224g23a8e99dmf4e79cdd55390dbb@mail.gmail.com> <59e007ed0707281446k4437b66wcd48dff3a9702afe@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0707281505h347e338bid70193321aabf643@mail.gmail.com> <59e007ed0707281528w5cc91c2cq5acbd8a458631786@mail.gmail.com> <59e007ed0707281651s6d8fe1aenf6aee2518555b76@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0707282238g4d7cc48bv81c44166ace2634@mail.gmail.com> <59e007ed0707290912u367b21ddr2ee7a028e24f18a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1186937628.5251.57.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Hi Hisham, I'm afraid you're more likely to find help translating your GITEX material in French on the dedicated French Fedora lists (also this is the height of summer vacations right now) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX Le dimanche 29 juillet 2007 ? 19:12 +0300, Hisham Abdel-Magid a ?crit : > Two of three : ) > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexExampleSign > > (French, r u there??!!) > > (Arabs, feedback on the translation plz) > > (Fedoras, comments and remarks plz) > > (John, I'm thinking of a sort of pamphlet too have all the versions > together in one.. i will put the idea on a .pdf file and send it > later) > > eof -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 04:37:11 2007 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:07:11 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement] In-Reply-To: <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> References: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> Message-ID: <46BFDFF7.9050801@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Tejas Dinkar wrote: > Someone, puhlese read this document: > http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days The CfP is still not there - any ETA on that. > And propose A Fedora Project Day. Rahul was talking something along these lines based on demand etc - -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGv9/3XQZpNTcrCzMRAgfjAKCO+4cpHqQkezI9pTpm8L8MKFgPxQCfVgCJ hZnEtEsnMep8wLyihGMZdRo= =REDe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Aug 13 07:00:26 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:00:26 +0300 Subject: Ref:Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal In-Reply-To: <46BD35C1.2000702@prodigy.net.mx> References: <5d88dfb00708101826x2fb2d43i5fc63631f8072877@mail.gmail.com> <46BD35C1.2000702@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46C0018A.1090000@nicubunu.ro> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > John Mackay escribi?: >> yup, I?ve heard about it. What about including Gimpshop? its supossed >> to be a GUI configuration much alike photoshop, so people can make the >> jump way easier. > Actually I'm one of those who "despise" GimpShop, as I learned how to > use a graphics program using The GIMP, not PhotoShop. Now I find > PhotoShop's tools and layout "counter intuitive", hehe While I am also familiar with the GIMP and would prefer to get a Fedora package for the development branch of it (2.4), I believe a package for Gimpshop would be welcomed, so John, I thing nobody will object if you submit a Gimpshop package :D -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From kushaldas at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 07:15:01 2007 From: kushaldas at gmail.com (Kushal Das) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:45:01 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement] In-Reply-To: <46BFDFF7.9050801@gmail.com> References: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> <46BFDFF7.9050801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200708131245.02035.kushaldas@gmail.com> On Monday 13 August 2007 10:07:11 am Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > Tejas Dinkar wrote: > > Someone, puhlese read this document: > > http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days > > The CfP is still not there - any ETA on that. > > > And propose A Fedora Project Day. > > Rahul was talking something along these lines based on demand etc We want a Fedora Project day :) Kushal -- Fedora Ambassador, India http://kushaldas.in From webpath at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 13 14:35:43 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:35:43 -0400 Subject: Promotion of Linux is one of many tasks for me! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C06C3F.8080409@fedoraproject.org> Markus McLaughlin wrote: > My mission is to convert regular folks who > don't know Windoze, MAC, > or Linux, and convert them into Linux Users, IT guys can help me out > with this task! Onward and forward! I have been getting similar questions from what I like to think of as "average" computer users contemplating the switch to Linux. I decided to print them in an advice column format rather than an FAQ to help get the friendly nature of Linux across. The hope is that other users will find some of the info helpful. Though I'll admit there's not much in the Q&A those already using Linux will find exciting. I usually get a very vague question, so I can't give more than a Vague/RTFM answer, but If you'd like a little insight into what these users are thinking about, you can check out http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=Ask_On-Disk Karlie From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 15:59:37 2007 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:59:37 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [foss.in] FOSS.IN/2007: Event Announcement] In-Reply-To: <46BFDFF7.9050801@gmail.com> References: <46B6A3FD.8060400@gmail.com> <20070811034343.GA3699@gja.in> <46BFDFF7.9050801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070813155937.GA13683@gja.in> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sent out 0.8K bytes to say: > The CfP is still not there - any ETA on that. The Call for Project Days will be out really soon. Like in the next 24 hours most likely :D -- Tejas Dinkar http://gja.in From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Aug 13 16:27:50 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:27:50 +0100 Subject: Create a Fedora Teaser? Message-ID: <46C08686.7080408@glezos.com> I just stumbled upon the following video, presenting the ELive distribution (prominently placed on their front page): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCJ8QDfA95U Even if it's just eye candy and doesn't show anything that actually makes a distro "a distro", it probably leaves everyone with a "wow" feeling, wanting to try it out. Something like the compiz/foo desktop effects, which even though they are just eye candy, they *did* bring a lot of people to linux. I'm wondering if there there is anyone that could produce such a video for Fedora. Maybe the RH video team could help out in the production or something? Just wondering if we could also have a piece of that "wow" cake. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com Mon Aug 13 19:15:59 2007 From: jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com (Jonas Karlsson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:15:59 +0200 Subject: yum remembering repo of origin In-Reply-To: <46C08686.7080408@glezos.com> References: <46C08686.7080408@glezos.com> Message-ID: <46C0ADEF.8070000@fxdev.com> I was thinking about if there is a feature in Yum (or rpm) that lets you see from where a package originated. When a package is installed it only shows as repository installed, correct? Is there a possibility that this feature could be added to the database handling in yum? It would be a usefull thing when deciding to uninstall all from a certain repo for what ever reson... //Jonas From paulds at bu.edu Mon Aug 13 19:21:51 2007 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:21:51 -0400 Subject: yum remembering repo of origin In-Reply-To: <46C0ADEF.8070000@fxdev.com> References: <46C08686.7080408@glezos.com> <46C0ADEF.8070000@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <20070813192151.GE6998@jadzia.bu.edu> On Mon, Aug 13, 2007 at 09:15:59PM +0200, Jonas Karlsson wrote: > I was thinking about if there is a feature in Yum (or rpm) that lets you > see from where a package originated. When a package is installed it only > shows as repository installed, correct? Is there a possibility that this Correct, information on the originating repository is not retained. > feature could be added to the database handling in yum? It would be a > usefull thing when deciding to uninstall all from a certain repo for > what ever reson... I agree that this would be a useful feature. You should probably take this suggestion to the yum mailing list and/or bugzilla: http://linux.duke.edu/projects/yum/ cheers, - Paul -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 14 11:26:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:56:57 +0530 Subject: Installing Fedora - a video tour Message-ID: <46C19181.3060401@fedoraproject.org> Hi Linux.com videos (with voice over) in ogg and flash formats under creative commons attribute sharelike non commercial license. Potentially useful for tech shows http://www.linux.com/feature/117384 "Ready to try Linux but want some hand-holding when you do? Here are three videos that walk you through the process of installing Fedora GNU/Linux." Rahul From sdl.web at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 17:50:15 2007 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:50:15 +0100 Subject: Installing Fedora - a video tour References: <46C19181.3060401@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 2007-08-14 12:26 +0100, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Linux.com videos (with voice over) in ogg and flash formats under > creative commons attribute sharelike non commercial > license. Potentially useful for tech shows > > http://www.linux.com/feature/117384 > > "Ready to try Linux but want some hand-holding when you do? Here are > three videos that walk you through the process of installing Fedora > GNU/Linux." Excellent. -- Leo (GPG Key: 9283AA3F) Gnus is one component of the Emacs operating system. From 321.784.5553 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 14 18:47:33 2007 From: 321.784.5553 at earthlink.net (Mike Feravolo) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:47:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Hello, My name is Mike Feravolo . . . Message-ID: <31443709.1187117254026.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I'm a software engineer with over twenty five years of experience building software applications, for numerous operating systems. These include all versions of Microsoft Windows, UNIX, GNU/Linux and others [RT-11, TOPS, VMS] that are no longer in wide use today. I own a Computer Services business in Central Florida and attend numerous Business Networking and Chamber of Commerce Events. We are members of the Cocoa Beach Area Chamber of Commerce and the East Orlando Chamber of Commerce. Prior to owning his own business Mike worked in industry on projects both large and small in scope, involving all phases of the software life cycle. We are strong protagonists of Free Software we will always recommend that our customers use GNU/Linux and other free software applications instead of proprietary software. We believe that Fedora is one of the best Linux Distributions and would like to help promote it to people in our local area. Thank You Mike Feravolo From jan at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 14 19:00:09 2007 From: jan at fedoraproject.org (jan birsa) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:00:09 +0200 Subject: Hello, My name is Mike Feravolo . . . In-Reply-To: <31443709.1187117254026.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31443709.1187117254026.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1833f76a0708141200g78147f84u7ead56777fb4295@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mike, Hope this mail wasnt spam (I feel stupid replying to spams). Yes, Fedora is a good Linux Distro. So, how can I help you? Jan On 8/14/07, Mike Feravolo <321.784.5553 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > I'm a software engineer with over twenty five years of experience building > software applications, for numerous operating systems. These include all > versions of Microsoft Windows, UNIX, GNU/Linux and others [RT-11, TOPS, VMS] > that are no longer in wide use today. > > I own a Computer Services business in Central Florida and attend numerous > Business Networking and Chamber of Commerce Events. We are members of the > Cocoa Beach Area Chamber of Commerce and the East Orlando Chamber of > Commerce. > > Prior to owning his own business Mike worked in industry on projects both > large and small in scope, involving all phases of the software life cycle. > > We are strong protagonists of Free Software we will always recommend that > our customers use GNU/Linux and other free software applications instead of > proprietary software. > > We believe that Fedora is one of the best Linux Distributions and would > like to help promote it to people in our local area. > > Thank You > > Mike Feravolo > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- jan at fedoraproject.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caillon at redhat.com Wed Aug 15 14:43:24 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 10:43:24 -0400 Subject: Virgin America moves from Fedora to Red Hat Enterprise Linux Message-ID: <46C3110C.3020704@redhat.com> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070815/20070815005031.html?.v=1 I thought I'd send this along because while they are moving to RHEL, it's still in the same family, and they highly tout Fedora as well. From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 16:54:25 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:54:25 -0300 Subject: Fedora 7 at Linux+ Message-ID: <3668180e0708150954t3b079540re59a1eede22eecbb@mail.gmail.com> Fedora 7 at Linux Plus Magazine http://www.lpmagazine.org Briefly at English Version with Brazilian Ambassadors articles http://www.lpmagazine.org/en/linuxplus.html Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hernan.pachas at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 17:10:58 2007 From: hernan.pachas at gmail.com (Hernan Pachas) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:10:58 -0500 Subject: Fedora 7 at Linux+ In-Reply-To: <3668180e0708150954t3b079540re59a1eede22eecbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0708150954t3b079540re59a1eede22eecbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Habr? alguno en espa?ol o ingles? Saludos, On 8/15/07, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > Fedora 7 at Linux Plus Magazine > http://www.lpmagazine.org > > Briefly at English Version with Brazilian Ambassadors articles > http://www.lpmagazine.org/en/linuxplus.html > > Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tchung at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 15 20:50:51 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:50:51 -0700 Subject: Virgin America moves from Fedora to Red Hat Enterprise Linux In-Reply-To: <46C3110C.3020704@redhat.com> References: <46C3110C.3020704@redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0708151350r776971b2r7d770409f7ce0aa2@mail.gmail.com> On 8/15/07, Christopher Aillon wrote: > http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070815/20070815005031.html?.v=1 > > I thought I'd send this along because while they are moving to RHEL, > it's still in the same family, and they highly tout Fedora as well. > On the same note, "Fedora was a fantastic solution for us as we began our journey with open source," said Ravi Simhambhatla, director of architecture and integration at Virgin America. "As our need for fine-grained control and scalability grew, we decided to migrate to Red Hat Enterprise Linux for its reputation as a resilient, secure and scalable platform as well as for its incredible support. Red Hat has the best kernel engineers in the world and when I'm in a real bind, it's priceless to have the ability to call someone who has the knowledge to get us on track quickly." -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 01:47:19 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 21:47:19 -0400 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: <20070815160007.9DC9473572@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20070815160007.9DC9473572@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: I have CentOS 5 Live CD, it's great to have when Fedora crashes, which it does once in a while. I hope the Global Desktop will be RHEL 5 lite so the rest of us can move up to it eventually. I am very curious about Fedora 8, I hope there will be some more "eye candy," and more features thanks to KDE 4 and GNOME 2.20. Esp. since catching up to Vista means optional Sidebars and Mac-Like Docks. The one wish I like to see granted in F 8 and beyond is a Expanded Start Menu similar to XP/Vista, this would be useful for inexperienced users who don't know much about the Command Line. I will be on vacation next week, so I will be posting on my blog from Sweden for 2 weeks, Farewell Fedora Fans for now!!! Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Aug 16 03:55:27 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 03:55:27 +0000 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: <20070815160007.9DC9473572@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <596539168-1187236659-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1148609292-@bxe018.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I've been reserving judgement on your posts in the past. With all due respect, I think your posts are without critical depth. One second you over-praise and over-sell Fedora (and Linux). Another second you have issues with Fedora (and Linux). Both cases make me cringe because I differ greatly with both. Especially on what Fedora (and Linux) does and does not do, and what another distro or non-Linux does and does not do. Many of your pro-Fedora statements are just blantant over-sells. I have to fight those on Linux in general way too much. But going the other way, your complements of non-Fedora or non-Linux and things I completely and technically disagree with. E.g., NT 6.0 Longhorn's Avalon was poorly implemented in WGF 1.1. The resulting Aero interface is complely inferior to Xgl and AIGLX. I could go very, very deep on these things and more. So I ask you, please, please don't approach Fedora with such a ."manic-depressive" duality, as it only reflects poorly. I've seen it all-too-often, one day happy, next day onto another distro. Just some advice, take it or leave it as you wish, hate me for pointing it out, believe I'm mistaken, etc... -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Markus McLaughlin" Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 21:47:19 To:fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com Subject: Re: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 18 I have CentOS 5 Live CD, it's great to have when Fedora crashes, which it does once in a while.? I hope the Global Desktop will be RHEL 5 lite so the rest of us can move up to it eventually.? I am very curious about Fedora 8, I hope there will be some more "eye candy," and more features thanks to KDE 4 and GNOME 2.20.? Esp. since catching up to Vista means optional Sidebars and Mac-Like Docks.? The one wish I like to see granted in F 8 and beyond is a Expanded Start Menu similar to XP/Vista, this would be useful for inexperienced users who don't know much about the Command Line.? I will be on vacation next week, so I will be posting on my blog from Sweden for 2 weeks, Farewell Fedora Fans for now!!! Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From dpaulo at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 16 13:07:36 2007 From: dpaulo at fedoraproject.org (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:07:36 -0300 Subject: Deskftop Faceoff: Fedora vs. Vista In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Here an interesting article published on EarthWeb.com comparing Vista and Fedora, with favorable comments to Fedora features. "(..) Fedora 7 adds a veneer to the GNU/Linux desktop that provides much of the ease of use of a Windows operating system, but beneath it, the traditional Unix concerns for security and for users doing things their own way remains. While users can ignore these concerns, especially when just starting out, as they become more experienced they may welcome the added control. Fedora and its default GNOME desktop may still have a few lessons to learn from Vista, particularly in the selection of administration tools. Yet in terms of almost everything that's important to users, Fedora and GNOME have overtaken Vista and are rapidly pulling away from it. As the addition of the side panel shows, it is Windows that is starting to learn from GNU/Linux. The days when the situation was the other way around are over." Complete history: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/article.php/11070_3694206_1 Regards, -- Davidson Paulo Linux System Administrator LPI Level 1 Certified: LPI000132770 Fedora Amabassador/Brazil BrOffice.org Users Group national leader BrOffice.org Zine editor http://medwiki.sourceforge.net/ http://natpack.sourceforge.net/ From jmbabich at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 21:01:05 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:01:05 +0300 Subject: Important Deadline for GITEX Message-ID: <9d2c731f0708161401l4fa94f5ej3080152bc58e24d1@mail.gmail.com> We need to submit the list of names of people who are volunteering to spend time in the GITEX Red Hat booth tomorrow (Friday, 17 August 2007). Right now, there are 2-3 volunteers. More volunteers are certainly welcome. This is decision time. Please respond to this posting immediately if you are interested. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX for more details. Best Regards, John Babich Fedora Ambassador From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 23:16:45 2007 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 04:46:45 +0530 Subject: Its good to be back and a few events. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi *, Back after a long time, nearly three months. During this I was detached from everything. Hope everyone is fine. Now I have taken admission to my masters,I am back and it feels great to be back. Well a few events from my part... >> On 25th August we are arranging a install fest at West Bengal University of Technology(WBUT),Kolkata.Though the capacity is limited to 30-35, We are looking for a series of such events.Distros will be Fedora and probably Ubuntu too. >>Setting up an internal mirror/yum repo at WBUT. Actually I got it running few minutes ago.We are also thinking of a public mirror if we can arrange for a bigger pipe. >>Compiling a custom distro based on fedora for UVC clients/AMD geode to be mass deployed through pxe.(For details about this you may contact Indranil Dasgupta at indradg at gmail.com). Thats all for now,see you again soon. Susmit. -- ssh 0x86DD170A http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SusmitShannigrahi From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 03:55:26 2007 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:25:26 +0530 Subject: Its good to be back and a few events. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C51C2E.8070002@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 susmit shannigrahi wrote: >>> On 25th August we are arranging a install fest at West Bengal > University of Technology(WBUT),Kolkata.Though the capacity is limited > to 30-35, We are looking for a series of such events.Distros will be > Fedora and probably Ubuntu too. What is the attendee profile ? >>> Setting up an internal mirror/yum repo at WBUT. Actually I got it > running few minutes ago.We are also thinking of a public mirror if we > can arrange for a bigger pipe. There was a dormant one at WBUT if I recall, 'tis the same or a new ? How is it being planned to be used ? >>> Compiling a custom distro based on fedora for UVC clients/AMD geode > to be mass deployed through pxe.(For details about this you may > contact Indranil Dasgupta at indradg at gmail.com). Is this ready to be prototyped ? - -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGxRwuXQZpNTcrCzMRAmp+AJ4jS4xtaceU1PVkozk3qAbRhCK+MwCfR8FZ 6Aa2AwxBQ/ggEjvU9IO8WoY= =E+Zc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 04:14:55 2007 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:44:55 +0530 Subject: Its good to be back and a few events. In-Reply-To: <46C51C2E.8070002@gmail.com> References: <46C51C2E.8070002@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > >>> On 25th August we are arranging a install fest at West Bengal > > University of Technology(WBUT),Kolkata.Though the capacity is limited > > to 30-35, We are looking for a series of such events.Distros will be > > Fedora and probably Ubuntu too. > > What is the attendee profile ? They are all students. Ranging over all the depts and years. All Expectedly with basic experience of linux but without much familiarization in terms of administration. > > >>> Setting up an internal mirror/yum repo at WBUT. Actually I got it > > running few minutes ago.We are also thinking of a public mirror if we > > can arrange for a bigger pipe. > > There was a dormant one at WBUT if I recall, 'tis the same or a new ? > How is it being planned to be used ? I don't know if there was any..But its from scratch. Firstly its planned to be used in the install fest , then to serve to the university locally. Any suggestions to make it more useful? > >>> Compiling a custom distro based on fedora for UVC clients/AMD geode > > to be mass deployed through pxe.(For details about this you may > > contact Indranil Dasgupta at indradg at gmail.com). > > Is this ready to be prototyped ? Afraid no. :) It will take a few more days. But I installed F7 on the UVC..It ran fine (Except the same old X) without any performance loss. Right now we have 3 uvc running on F7. All the peripherals are working fine. But we want to optimize it for better performance and downsizing it. Regards, Susmit. -- ssh 0x86DD170A http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SusmitShannigrahi From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 17 17:44:47 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Majority of Ubuntu community servers compromised, servers were using clear-text FTP ... Message-ID: <337906.46444.qm@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> First off, this is _not_ an anti-Ubuntu e-mail. I not only and regularly deal with supporting Ubuntu in corporate environments, but I run Xubuntu on older hardware myself. Secondly, a lot of commentary here has surrounded trying to reach contributors. There is a lot of complaints on everything from the agreements to workflow, and the fact that sometimes (although not as often anymore with APT/YUM being so commonplace) that contributors bark about the security hoops. Third, I have long commended how the Fedora Project (like Red Hat Linux before it) has always addressed "what must be done, no exceptions," even though many things lead to complaints. Some things just cannot budge, and no matter how you try to explain such things to people, some just aren't going to care. Fourth, as I have repeatedly stated, Conical will find itself in the same positions as Red Hat has more and more. Conical will address those situations much like Red Hat, and suffer the same, misguided but not so uncommon, "demonizations" as a result -- especially as it becomes less and less "new" to people. "Ubuntu Servers Hijacked, Used to Launch Attack" http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2171318,00.asp -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 17 17:40:37 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Majority of Ubuntu community servers compromised, servers were using clear-text FTP ... In-Reply-To: <337906.46444.qm@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <337906.46444.qm@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Aug 2007, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > First off, this is _not_ an anti-Ubuntu e-mail. I not only and > regularly deal with supporting Ubuntu in corporate environments, but > I run Xubuntu on older hardware myself. > > Secondly, a lot of commentary here has surrounded trying to reach > contributors. There is a lot of complaints on everything from the > agreements to workflow, and the fact that sometimes (although not as > often anymore with APT/YUM being so commonplace) that contributors > bark about the security hoops. > > Third, I have long commended how the Fedora Project (like Red Hat > Linux before it) has always addressed "what must be done, no > exceptions," even though many things lead to complaints. Some things > just cannot budge, and no matter how you try to explain such things > to people, some just aren't going to care. > > Fourth, as I have repeatedly stated, Conical will find itself in the > same positions as Red Hat has more and more. Conical will address > those situations much like Red Hat, and suffer the same, misguided > but not so uncommon, "demonizations" as a result -- especially as it > becomes less and less "new" to people. > > "Ubuntu Servers Hijacked, Used to Launch Attack" > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2171318,00.asp One thing I would say about the Fedora / Red Hat partnership: There are some things that a Community does well, and there are some things that a Company does well. Security audits and the like are Boring, Painful, and No Fun At All. But they are necessary. And Companies are far better suited to deal with things that are Boring, Painful, and No Fun At All because Companies can compensate people with Actual Money. It is the duty of the Company (in our case, Red Hat) to be Responsible for these Boring, Painful, and No Fun At All duties, in order to enable the Community (in our case, Fedora) to do what they do well: production, experimentation, and innovation. Now, in Fedora, we're very lucky; the Fedora Infrastructure team, which is fairly well divided between Community and Company resources, is absolutely top-notch. But the recent misfortunes of Ubuntu (and the less publicized misfortunes of Gentoo) are a stark reminder that we must not become complacent. There, but for the grace of God and a vigilant FI team, go us. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 17 18:05:08 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Majority of Ubuntu community servers compromised, servers were using clear-text FTP ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <778602.15181.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Now, in Fedora, we're very lucky; the Fedora Infrastructure > team, which is fairly well divided between Community and > Company resources, is absolutely top-notch. As a self-admitted "Red Hat apologist," there is no end to the demonizations I hear of Red Hat's "overriding decision making" on Fedora. Rumors fly about and when I hear them, I repeatedly find myself saying, "oh, that makes sense because of ..." of which I "just become the target," etc... ;) > But the recent misfortunes of Ubuntu (and the less publicized > misfortunes of Gentoo) are a stark reminder that we must not > become complacent. There, but for the grace of God and a > vigilant FI team, go us. There is no guarantee there will not be compromise of Fedora, let alone even Red Hat, resources on the Internet. That's just fact. In fact, the worst thing is to be compromised and not know about it (let alone under attack and not mitigate it before it reaches the state of compromise). But one thing I don't think I'll see is that it is the result of an overlooked process, poorly considered implementation or some lack of "due process" or, more directly yet, "due enforcement" in the Fedora model. Nay-sayers be damned, while it's not perfect, I consider it to "be the standard." In fact, just yesterday I had to explain to someone how the core approach and balance of community-company in Fedora is no different that what I saw in Red Hat Linux prior -- from the submission, test, release, etc..., including the build and security approaches. Fedora has just become a more formal, more open, more transparent enabler to the community, which is what I had always hoped it would become. With all that said, the few bits I've been getting on the Conical side shows they have actually been trying to address this for some time. And as I said before, Conical will run into more and more of these community-company considerations in the future. In fact, just last week I heard my first, "Conical is becoming like Red Hat." I neither consider that an insult of or a problem with consideration for the Ubuntu community or development. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From clint at utos.org Fri Aug 17 18:36:19 2007 From: clint at utos.org (Clint Savage) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:36:19 -0600 Subject: Majority of Ubuntu community servers compromised, servers were using clear-text FTP ... In-Reply-To: <778602.15181.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <778602.15181.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C5EAA3.4070109@utos.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> Now, in Fedora, we're very lucky; the Fedora Infrastructure team, >> which is fairly well divided between Community and Company >> resources, is absolutely top-notch. > > As a self-admitted "Red Hat apologist," there is no end to the > demonizations I hear of Red Hat's "overriding decision making" on > Fedora. Rumors fly about and when I hear them, I repeatedly find > myself saying, "oh, that makes sense because of ..." of which I > "just become the target," etc... ;) > >> But the recent misfortunes of Ubuntu (and the less publicized >> misfortunes of Gentoo) are a stark reminder that we must not >> become complacent. There, but for the grace of God and a >> vigilant FI team, go us. > > There is no guarantee there will not be compromise of Fedora, let > alone even Red Hat, resources on the Internet. That's just fact. > In fact, the worst thing is to be compromised and not know about it > (let alone under attack and not mitigate it before it reaches the > state of compromise). > > But one thing I don't think I'll see is that it is the result of an > overlooked process, poorly considered implementation or some lack > of "due process" or, more directly yet, "due enforcement" in the > Fedora model. Nay-sayers be damned, while it's not perfect, I > consider it to "be the standard." > > In fact, just yesterday I had to explain to someone how the core > approach and balance of community-company in Fedora is no different > that what I saw in Red Hat Linux prior -- from the submission, > test, release, etc..., including the build and security approaches. > Fedora has just become a more formal, more open, more transparent > enabler to the community, which is what I had always hoped it would > become. > > With all that said, the few bits I've been getting on the Conical > side shows they have actually been trying to address this for some > time. And as I said before, Conical will run into more and more of > these community-company considerations in the future. In fact, > just last week I heard my first, "Conical is becoming like Red > Hat." I neither consider that an insult of or a problem with > consideration for the Ubuntu community or development. ;) > > It's Canonical. Not Conical Cheers, Clint - -- Clint Savage Fedora Ambassador Utah Open Source Conference September 6-8, 2007 http://www.utosc.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGxeqjfSfYomKiJY4RAr4GAKCL3QPf4ucTrLr2a5jfujDPmO3pSwCfS+h/ XSXdrtF+NzRnjawx8ilY8Ec= =qnx2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 17 18:37:17 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 00:07:17 +0530 Subject: Majority of Ubuntu community servers compromised, servers were using clear-text FTP ... In-Reply-To: <337906.46444.qm@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <337906.46444.qm@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46C5EADD.1030009@fedoraproject.org> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Fourth, as I have repeatedly stated, Conical will find itself in the > same positions as Red Hat has more and more. Conical will address > those situations much like Red Hat, and suffer the same, misguided > but not so uncommon, "demonizations" as a result -- especially as it > becomes less and less "new" to people. I noticed that you always misspell Canonical as Conical. You might want to fix that before anyone mistakes it as some sort of deliberate insulting slang. I agree with the basic assertion that Red Hat is better off because it already gone through the transition pain and succeeded in creating a business and larger community model that worked for the advantage of both. Whether it is the "best model" for either is anyone's guess. The things that touch upon control (be it for business, security or any other reasons) vs enabling enabling the community are just details of the larger view. The merge of core and extras has turned the level of package wrangling from repository management to ACL's as an current engaging example of this. What Canonical is striving for is not something new and they have deliberated followed a Red Hat Linux like business strategy of a single product with optional support and services. It wins over a substantial number of users but unless the market is substantially changing they might end up rediscovering that pure support without product tie-up isn't very sustainable. It is good that they have the luxury of experimenting with this without the pressure of a being a public organization. We will get to know the success (or lack of it) in a few years. Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Aug 17 18:50:40 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Majority of Ubuntu community servers compromised, servers were using clear-text FTP ... In-Reply-To: <46C5EADD.1030009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <574028.95953.qm@web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I noticed that you always misspell Canonical as Conical. You > might want to fix that before anyone mistakes it as some sort > of deliberate insulting slang. Ack! Thanx for pointing that out! Heck, for years I used to spell Red Hat as RedHat (no space). > What Canonical is striving for is not something new and they > have deliberated followed a Red Hat Linux like business > strategy of a single product with optional support and > services. It wins over a substantial number of users but > unless the market is substantially changing they might end > up rediscovering that pure support without product tie-up > isn't very sustainable. And with releases every 6-10 months (05.10, 06.06, 07.04), but a promised 3 years (5 years on server) Long Term Support (LTS), I tend to agree that is going to be rather hard to sustain once 3 years (5 years on server) of support turns into 5+ releases (possibly 7+ in the case of server ;). I don't know how many times I have to point out to complainers of Red Hat that the distro they are supporting has never supported a distro has yet to support a distro as long as they claim they will, let alone as long as Red Hat. Not trying to "argue" with them, just point out the fact that they should just "leave Red Hat be" and focus on their own distro. In reality, the same people who complained about Red Hat have turned to complaining about other distros. As I eluded to, "one the newness wears off," often as the company realizes there's more to supporting 3-5 years than just a statement, those same people tend to just start complaining there too. > It is good that they have the luxury of experimenting with this > without the pressure of a being a public organization. We will > get to know the success (or lack of it) in a few years. The thing is that I've seen the "in a few years" too many times now. ;) I know more people are using Linux, and the volumes are greater now, but people who fund those distros (or lack thereof) haven't changed the basic "economies-of-scale" concept. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 19 16:21:24 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:21:24 +0800 Subject: Interesting articles Message-ID: <002901c7e27c$fd3a31a0$f7ae94e0$@id.au> Hey All, Well apcmag in Australia in the September edition has got Fedora 7 on the front cover. I was hoping to find a link to it from the main website but I couldn't sadly. On a side note however I found this which I didn't know about. http://apcmag.com/node/6735/ Con Kolivas leaving. This personally saddens me and from my point of view I would like to say a huge thanks to him. Hopefully people won't get to annoyed by the second part of this post. Cheers, Marc From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 20 03:37:08 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:37:08 -0400 Subject: Interesting articles In-Reply-To: <002901c7e27c$fd3a31a0$f7ae94e0$@id.au> References: <002901c7e27c$fd3a31a0$f7ae94e0$@id.au> Message-ID: <46C90C64.4010208@prodigy.net.mx> Marc Wiriadisastra escribi?: > Hey All, > > Well apcmag in Australia in the September edition has got Fedora 7 on the > front cover. I was hoping to find a link to it from the main website but I > couldn't sadly. > > On a side note however I found this which I didn't know about. > > http://apcmag.com/node/6735/ > > Con Kolivas leaving. This personally saddens me and from my point of view I > would like to say a huge thanks to him. > > Hopefully people won't get to annoyed by the second part of this post. > > Cheers, > > Marc > > I couldn't agree more about the sad fact that Con's departure is. Personally I used his patchset for many, many kernel builds. His work will be missed... and I'm not entirely sure what derived to his departure (I know bits of the story, but not the whole deal, even though I'm subscribed to the mailing list... probably will have to go through the archives). At any rate, we can only wait and see what happens next. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 20 11:27:35 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:57:35 +0530 Subject: A view of Linux as introduced by a blind user via Orca Message-ID: <46C97AA7.1040203@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://blogs.sun.com/korn/entry/a_view_of_fedora_as Darragh ? H?iligh, a blind Linux user in Ireland, has just posted an audio introduction of Fedora Linux with Orca. In his recording, Darragh acts as a tour guide showing some highlights of his Fedora Core 7 desktop through the Orca screen reader. ""Windows is still not my preferred operating system" reports Darragh at the end of his audio tour. "With the recent advances in Orca in GNOME, and the fact that with the work of the people on the Speakup Modified group, Fedora 7 makes it very easy to set up, and with the combination of everything it's just so fast to use; it's really becoming just a pleasure." Rahul From alejolucas at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 15:17:50 2007 From: alejolucas at gmail.com (Alejo Cerrat0) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:17:50 -0400 Subject: Intro & observations Message-ID: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> Hi, my name is Alejo Cerrato, and I'm Marketing Director of a medium size company in SoFla. I'm very interested in improve my skills on Linux and colaborate with the Fedora Project. So far I've found that if you are not very skilled in Linux it is hard to follow all the steps as they are indicated to succesfully become a contributor. And I guess that there may be people willing to colaborate, but without the minimum Linux skills to do so. For some reason (and I'm not trying to get any help here in this list) I can't validate my CLA. I wonder how many people got discouraged in becoming a contributor because of the complexity of the process, and the intrinsec bureaucracy. I understand at the same time that it has to be done in a secure environment. I'm going to keep on trying and get my CLA validated asap. But at the same time I'll like to help make this process easier for the contributors-to-be, people that may lack Linux knowledge but have other skills that could help. AlejoCerrato.// From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 21 00:09:25 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:09:25 -0700 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 11:17 -0400, Alejo Cerrat0 wrote: > Hi, my name is Alejo Cerrato, and I'm Marketing Director of a medium > size company in SoFla. > > I'm very interested in improve my skills on Linux and colaborate with > the Fedora Project. Great; thanks for bringing yourself to this mailing list. :) > So far I've found that if you are not very skilled in Linux it is hard > to follow all the steps as they are indicated to succesfully become a > contributor. And I guess that there may be people willing to > colaborate, but without the minimum Linux skills to do so. > > For some reason (and I'm not trying to get any help here in this list) > I can't validate my CLA. I wonder how many people got discouraged in > becoming a contributor because of the complexity of the process, and > the intrinsec bureaucracy. > > I understand at the same time that it has to be done in a secure environment. > > I'm going to keep on trying and get my CLA validated asap. > > But at the same time I'll like to help make this process easier for > the contributors-to-be, people that may lack Linux knowledge but have > other skills that could help. These are good points. It is a challenge to get involved, it shouldn't be, and it's hard to know where to start in making it easier. While we cannot do away with the CLA for certain kinds of contributions, we can: A. Encourage contributions that don't require a CLA, so are easier to do (bugzilla, mailing list, IRC, etc.) B. Find ways to make the CLA easier to agree to (such as a click-through CLA for the wiki) For A., we can make it easier for people to find and participate in those groups. We try to point out the value and existence: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate For B., we have a project to use a click-through CLA for giving wiki editing privileges. We are waiting for a release of the wiki software to do that. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.fedorapeople.org | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 06:38:19 2007 From: sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:08:19 +0530 Subject: Doing a Fedora Project Day at foss.in Message-ID: <46CA885B.6000306@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [This might be an Ambassadors list post, but then again it might not] Hi, The foss.in Project Day discussion has been trundling along for a while. Here are the relevant important links: * http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days * http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Day_Submissions * http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days#What_is_the_structure_of_a_Project_Day.3F * http://foss.in/2007/info/Project_Days#How_Do_I_Propose_a_Project_Day.3F How is the Fedora Project Day placed ? + we know what can be expected from the foss.in team + we know the dates of the Project Days + we know the intent behind the Project Days - - we don't have a Program Schedule in place yet o on IM Eugene Teo promises to be part of a Fedora Project Day - - we don't have volunteers identified - - we don't have Show-n-Tell sessions in place Can we iterate this fast enough to have a nice proposal in place by Friday - 24th of Aug 2007 ? It would be awesome to have sessions on: o Fedora Spins (the project Chitlesh has been talking about ...) o Fedora LiveCD (persistence and all ...) o Fedora Roadmap (special mention of the Desktop Team bits) o How to contribute to Fedora o A Bug Triage section o Fedora and a11y :Sankarshan - -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGyohbXQZpNTcrCzMRAvuVAJ9rNbiKbm6TlNFXRA63R3TQ2iHy6wCgw6Gb ZSqKOJHInDEJLBTMeKxIBC0= =FY4O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From davidsonpaulo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 12:52:43 2007 From: davidsonpaulo at gmail.com (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:52:43 -0300 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Hi, 2007/8/20, Karsten Wade : > These are good points. It is a challenge to get involved, it shouldn't > be, and it's hard to know where to start in making it easier. Recently as guided my fianc? on CLA creation process (she is now a Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NataliaWanick) and I noted that all the instructions on creating PGP and SSH keys are based in command line. This is an error because Fedora have the powerful and simple Seahorse that allows users to manage your keys more easily than I could imagine, so there is no reason to instruct people to use another way. Moreover, Fedora Account System does't recognize files signed with Seahorse (on Nautilus, right-click on a file, Sign). Natalia was unable to complete the CLA creation process using only graphic tools shiped on Fedora, but she needed to open a terminal and type gpg -a --sign [file]... CLA creation is not a so hard process. There are just tw0 critical steps, there are keys creating and signature validating. If we can instruct people to do this using graphical tools, there will be no dificulty to people create their CLA. -- Davidson Paulo Linux Systems Administrator LPI Certified Level 1: LPI000132770 Fedora Ambassador/Brazil BrOffice.org's national users group leader BrOffice.org Zine editor http://davidsonenatalia.blogspot.com/ http://medwiki.sourceforge.net/ http://natpack.sourceforge.net/ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 21 12:56:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:26:57 +0530 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <46CAE119.9010207@fedoraproject.org> Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > > Recently as guided my fianc? on CLA creation process (she is now a > Fedora Ambassador - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NataliaWanick) and I > noted that all the instructions on creating PGP and SSH keys are based > in command line. This is an error because Fedora have the powerful and > simple Seahorse that allows users to manage your keys more easily than > I could imagine, so there is no reason to instruct people to use > another way. Many developers prefer using command line programs for various reasons. So while you can document the graphical utilities better, the command line variants need to be retained. Feel free to edit the wiki and document using seahorse as a method there. > Moreover, Fedora Account System does't recognize files signed with > Seahorse (on Nautilus, right-click on a file, Sign). Natalia was > unable to complete the CLA creation process using only graphic tools > shiped on Fedora, but she needed to open a terminal and type gpg -a > --sign [file]... Did you file a bug report? If not please do so at http://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure Rahul From davidsonpaulo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 13:46:19 2007 From: davidsonpaulo at gmail.com (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:46:19 -0300 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <46CAE119.9010207@fedoraproject.org> References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> <46CAE119.9010207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2007/8/21, Rahul Sundaram : > Many developers prefer using command line programs for various reasons. Yes, but we [the developers] are the minority. We never can forget this. > So while you can document the graphical utilities better, the command > line variants need to be retained. Right, this is part of the Free Software philosophy, that is, "do things the way you want", not "I don't care if there is another way to do that, do it the way I did". > Feel free to edit the wiki and > document using seahorse as a method there. Yes, I'll do that soon. :-) > Did you file a bug report? If not please do so at > http://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure I'm not sure if this can be considered a bug because both Seahorse and signature verification works as they were programmed to. I think this is an issue for a feature request, not a bug report. Anyway, I'll send a report using this channel (unless exists another more appropriate), because just talking helps nobody. Thanks, Davidson From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 21 15:08:02 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:08:02 -0400 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> <46CAE119.9010207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1187708882.5271.49.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 10:46 -0300, Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > Yes, but we [the developers] are the minority. We never can forget this. If Fedora is catering to contributors, then there is that consideration. Furthermore, some security aspects aren't merely "Point'n Click." As someone who has done policies & procedures for banks, forcing people to use a process is not optional, and I don't know how many times I caught key people giving out or assuming authentications were actual, when they were not. > Right, this is part of the Free Software philosophy, that is, "do > things the way you want", not "I don't care if there is another way to > do that, do it the way I did". I'm not seeing your point there. My apologies if I'm assuming here. There is a reason why there is _always_ a "command line interface" (CLI) to every program, it's the "most common denominator." Graphical user interfaces (GUI) should never cross CLI interfaces, _only_ complement. The GNU project and standards has drastically improved these standards over previous UNIX efforts. And there are reasons why the system may need to be configurable outside the GUI as well. ;) As an original NT 3.1 beta tester through today as a person who regularly "retrains" (i.e., "deprograms") Windows sysadmins to "think multiuser, think piecemeal, think security" like UNIX/Linux, I have volumes on what NT absolutely screws up on and lacks standards when it comes to this -- often to the ultimate demise of Microsoft Professionals who, eventually, do not tolerate it. > I'm not sure if this can be considered a bug because both Seahorse and > signature verification works as they were programmed to. I think this > is an issue for a feature request, not a bug report. Anyway, I'll send > a report using this channel (unless exists another more appropriate), > because just talking helps nobody. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From davidsonpaulo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 16:18:41 2007 From: davidsonpaulo at gmail.com (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:18:41 -0300 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <1187708882.5271.49.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> <46CAE119.9010207@fedoraproject.org> <1187708882.5271.49.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: 2007/8/21, Bryan J. Smith : > Furthermore, some security aspects aren't merely "Point'n Click." As > someone who has done policies & procedures for banks, forcing people to > use a process is not optional, and I don't know how many times I caught > key people giving out or assuming authentications were actual, when they > were not. Hey, I'm absolutely not sugesting to modify security policy, I hope you have understood it. I'm talking about an *altervative* method to generate PGP/SSH keys and sign files in a way they can be recognized by Fedora Account System engine. Because, today, there no one information about using a GUI to generate PGP/SSH keys. > I'm not seeing your point there. My apologies if I'm assuming here. I said if you think that command line is better you can't say to others they can't use a GUI, as well as anyone who think that using a GUI is better can't say to others they can't use command line. > There is a reason why there is _always_ a "command line interface" (CLI) > to every program, it's the "most common denominator." Yes, I know it. I use CLI every day, every time because at most cases giving commands allows me to do tasks in a faster way than using GUI's. But this is not the issue. > Graphical user > interfaces (GUI) should never cross CLI interfaces, _only_ complement. Yes, it's right. I never said Fedora need to avoid using CLI interfaces on its CLA process. Again, this is not the issue. Regards, Davidson From thebs413 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 21 17:43:46 2007 From: thebs413 at yahoo.com (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <286482.67713.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > Hey, I'm absolutely not sugesting to modify security policy, > I hope you have understood it. I'm talking about an *altervative* > method to generate PGP/SSH keys and sign files in a way they can > be recognized by Fedora Account System engine. Because, today, > there no one information about using a GUI to generate PGP/SSH > keys. That's typically because there is no "Point'n Click" 'process.' Yes, there are key managers and other GUI solutions, but the "process" (including the concepts of "Public Key" authentication in general) is what most people take issue with. ;) > I said if you think that command line is better you can't > say to others they can't use a GUI, as well as anyone who > think that using a GUI is better can't say to others they > can't use command line. If you have a GUI that "does the job," go for it. In fact, I guess we could use a "wizard" that has major "hand holding." God knows I'd love to write such a key manager that does. But I haven't seen one myself. ;) I.e., I found the commercial PGP GUI software is "too hard to use" by 97% of users, not because of the software or GUI, but because of the concepts beyond PKI. > Yes, I know it. I use CLI every day, every time because at most > cases giving commands allows me to do tasks in a faster way than > using GUI's. But this is not the issue. But the "processes" are the issue. I don't know how you avoid them in a GUI, at least without a Wizard that is also an educator. The ultimate irony is that most people say, "I just want it to work" and don't stop to realize part of the "process" *IS* to understand *WHY* you don't "just want it to work." I.e., what protections and processes you must proliferate, not, for example ... "okay, I got a key, not sure which one you need so I'll upload both of them to you." ;) [ Oh man, that happens *WAY* too much! ] > Yes, it's right. I never said Fedora need to avoid using CLI > interfaces on its CLA process. Again, this is not the issue. I know, but the "process" is what people complain about, not the GUI. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 21 17:43:52 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <558641.88976.qm@web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > Hey, I'm absolutely not sugesting to modify security policy, > I hope you have understood it. I'm talking about an *altervative* > method to generate PGP/SSH keys and sign files in a way they can > be recognized by Fedora Account System engine. Because, today, > there no one information about using a GUI to generate PGP/SSH > keys. That's typically because there is no "Point'n Click" 'process.' Yes, there are key managers and other GUI solutions, but the "process" (including the concepts of "Public Key" authentication in general) is what most people take issue with. ;) > I said if you think that command line is better you can't > say to others they can't use a GUI, as well as anyone who > think that using a GUI is better can't say to others they > can't use command line. If you have a GUI that "does the job," go for it. In fact, I guess we could use a "wizard" that has major "hand holding." God knows I'd love to write such a key manager that does. But I haven't seen one myself. ;) I.e., I found the commercial PGP GUI software is "too hard to use" by 97% of users, not because of the software or GUI, but because of the concepts beyond PKI. > Yes, I know it. I use CLI every day, every time because at most > cases giving commands allows me to do tasks in a faster way than > using GUI's. But this is not the issue. But the "processes" are the issue. I don't know how you avoid them in a GUI, at least without a Wizard that is also an educator. The ultimate irony is that most people say, "I just want it to work" and don't stop to realize part of the "process" *IS* to understand *WHY* you don't "just want it to work." I.e., what protections and processes you must proliferate, not, for example ... "okay, I got a key, not sure which one you need so I'll upload both of them to you." ;) [ Oh man, that happens *WAY* too much! ] > Yes, it's right. I never said Fedora need to avoid using CLI > interfaces on its CLA process. Again, this is not the issue. I know, but the "process" is what people complain about, not the GUI. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From davidsonpaulo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 18:07:29 2007 From: davidsonpaulo at gmail.com (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:07:29 -0300 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <558641.88976.qm@web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <558641.88976.qm@web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2007/8/21, Bryan J. Smith : > That's typically because there is no "Point'n Click" 'process.' Yes, > there are key managers and other GUI solutions, but the "process" > (including the concepts of "Public Key" authentication in general) is > what most people take issue with. ;) No. This is what the people say. The process is simple, when the tools are simple. In other words, give to people tools that make more easy to execute each step of the process and the entire process will looks easy for them. > The ultimate irony is that most people say, "I just want it to work" > and don't stop to realize part of the "process" *IS* to understand > *WHY* you don't "just want it to work." I.e., what protections and > processes you must proliferate, not, for example ... > > "okay, I got a key, not sure which one you need so > I'll upload both of them to you." ;) > > [ Oh man, that happens *WAY* too much! ] Welcome to the Earth. :-) > I know, but the "process" is what people complain about, not the GUI. If a computer don't turns on, the owner will say to the technician "My computer don't turns on", not "My computer don't turns on because one of the RAM modules". Do you understand? We have an issue with the process, but we need to know that the problem is not the process itself, same way as the problem with the computer is not the computer, but something inside it that the owner don't know what it and the technician needs to discover. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 21 18:58:30 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <299313.9568.qm@web32901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > No. This is what the people say. The process is simple, when the > tools are simple. Okay, then create the CGI characters for the next, animated film. The tools are easy. So just go do it. Oh, wait, that's right, there are concepts involved that software can't teach you. At _most_ you could create a wizard that creates a "stock" character with a few options, and a few animations. But that still doesn't get you to film. ;) > Welcome to the Earth. :-) One person does that and BAM! Fedora potentially compromised! > If a computer don't turns on, the owner will say to the technician > "My computer don't turns on", not "My computer don't turns on > because one of the RAM modules". And what do they do when the technician states, "I need your password to fix your computer." That's authentication 101. Now multiple the complexity of the concepts by an order of magnitude. Welcome to public key authentication. ;) > Do you understand? Apparently you didn't understand mine. Also understand you are talking to someone who stared down the executives at the #1 entertainment company going, "no, Capital One will sign their files." Someone who said, "no, your support technicians will not support bank servers on the WAN, they will go over to a separate room and login in there, because it is on a completely different LAN with absolutely no Internet or other corporate WAN (let alone inter-company) connectivity." > We have an issue with the process, but we need to know that > the problem is not the process itself, same way as the problem > with the computer is not the computer, > but something inside it that the owner don't know what it and the > technician needs to discover. I have heard the "the processes are too difficult, to hard, we need a 'tool' that is 'secure' and people don't need to understand how they work." Sorry, doesn't fly with me on _basic_ security concepts. Especially when just *1* user compromised means the _entire_ Fedora project in compromised. Tools don't help that. ;0 A wizard is nice, but that wizard must _train_ the person on the process. They can_not_ just ignore the details. So yes, that means the user needs to know when its the memory, and when its not. ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From davidsonpaulo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 19:43:24 2007 From: davidsonpaulo at gmail.com (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:43:24 -0300 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <299313.9568.qm@web32901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <299313.9568.qm@web32901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2007/8/21, Bryan J. Smith : > A wizard is nice, but that wizard must _train_ the person on the > process. They can_not_ just ignore the details. So, are CLI that make people know the details? From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 21 20:30:11 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <683363.29056.qm@web32911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > So, are CLI that make people know the details? My point is that the GUI may not any more than the CLI, and could possibly make it worse. Again, I'm _not_ debating CLI v. GUI, so _please_ drop that. ;) I said *IF* a GUI is to be built, it _should_ be a "wizard." And that "wizard" is educational, not just a "cookbook" type of "generate me a keypair." ;) -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From davidsonpaulo at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 21:14:06 2007 From: davidsonpaulo at gmail.com (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:14:06 -0300 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <683363.29056.qm@web32911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <683363.29056.qm@web32911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 2007/8/21, Bryan J. Smith : > I said *IF* a GUI is to be built, it _should_ be a "wizard." And > that "wizard" is educational, not just a "cookbook" type of "generate > me a keypair." ;) Education is a task for documentation, not software. When people follow CLA instructions they need to be educated in PGP keys, not when they are creating the keys. I'm not talking about GUI building, wizards or user education. From the start: * There is a GUI that works in a way it need to work, and it's so "educational" than the CLI; * Using GUI, we can sign a file, but it's not possible finish a CLA validation signing the file this way because the file is signed as in "gpg -b --sign [file]", and the Fedora Account System is configured to recognized files signed as in "gpg -a --sign [file]"; * Making some modifications in the GUI that allow users to sign a file in a way that is compatible with Fedora Account System will give them a new way to create their CLA without modifying absolutely nothing in the process (just in _one tool_ used to acomplish _two steps_ of the process); Is that, nothing else. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 21 21:19:29 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <358182.50602.qm@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: > Education is a task for documentation, not software. I disagree. But, ironically, the CLI addresses that today. ;) > When people follow CLA instructions they need to be educated > in PGP keys, not when they are creating the keys. Now I'm confused. How does this make everything "easier"? And are you advocating them creating the keys _then_ understanding? Or vice-versa? > I'm not talking about GUI building, wizards or user education. > From the start: > * There is a GUI that works in a way it need to work, and it's so > "educational" than the CLI; I didn't understand that statement, and I'm still scratching my head on what you mean by "works in a way it need to work"? > * Using GUI, we can sign a file, but it's not possible finish a CLA > validation signing the file this way because the file is signed as > in "gpg -b --sign [file]", and the Fedora Account System is > configured to recognized files signed as in "gpg -a --sign [file]"; That's a simple binary v. ASCII aspect. I'm still confused here. Is there not the option radio button to change this already? Or are you talking about changing defaults in GUI programs? > * Making some modifications in the GUI that allow users to sign a > file in a way that is compatible with Fedora Account System will > give them a new way to create their CLA without modifying > absolutely nothing in the process (just in _one tool_ used to > acomplish _two steps_ of the process); > Is that, nothing else. I'm still utterly confused here. I guess I'm just clueless. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 21 21:23:38 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:53:38 +0530 Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <358182.50602.qm@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <358182.50602.qm@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46CB57DA.3050905@fedoraproject.org> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Davidson Rodrigues Paulo wrote: >> Education is a task for documentation, not software. > > I disagree. But, ironically, the CLI addresses that today. ;) > >> When people follow CLA instructions they need to be educated >> in PGP keys, not when they are creating the keys. > > Now I'm confused. How does this make everything "easier"? Please continue this discussion offlist if needed. I would rather this energy be focused on fixing any issues with the documentation and get over the problem. Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Aug 21 21:29:52 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: <46CB57DA.3050905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <106795.64755.qm@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Please continue this discussion offlist if needed. I would rather > this energy be focused on fixing any issues with the documentation > and get over the problem. Agreed. My apologies. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Aug 22 02:04:50 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:04:50 -0400 Subject: Employment change, switching to digest and lurking ... Message-ID: <1187748290.3807.9.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> I've had an employment change. As such, I'm going to switch to the digest mode and go back to lurking. This is really driven by the fact that I can really no longer provide opinions here (much less the "over-opinionated" person I am, even called by some a "Red Hat apologist" ;). Hopefully I'll start by replacing the hot air I provide with some real contributions in the near future. I might start by a few screenshots of Seahorse, and a little docs, if Mr. Paulo will provide the insights. It's always good to step back and consider what others are saying, even if you don't see the viewpoint -- and I did that, and do now see some valid points he was making. I hope he'll work with me off-list. >From there I plan on hitting the Duke/YUM team to explore my ECM desires in hacks to YUM, in the hope they may be considered. My current hacks are Bash and I'd definitely have to turn them into integrated Python code. In any case, I will follow this list, because there are always good insights into what people are thinking, even if I disagree (sometimes a bit too strongly) with the analysis or suggestions. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From jmbabich at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 06:02:26 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:02:26 +0300 Subject: Employment change, switching to digest and lurking ... In-Reply-To: <1187748290.3807.9.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1187748290.3807.9.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0708212302p557fb75cq36d2005d616fd3f9@mail.gmail.com> Bryan: Good luck on your new job. I appreciate someone with a strong opinion, even if I don't always agree. Best Regards, John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Wed Aug 22 06:36:01 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:36:01 +0800 Subject: Employment change, switching to digest and lurking ... In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0708212302p557fb75cq36d2005d616fd3f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1187748290.3807.9.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> <9d2c731f0708212302p557fb75cq36d2005d616fd3f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000b01c7e486$b56b7ee0$20427ca0$@id.au> -----Original Message----- From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John Babich Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2007 2:02 PM To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: Employment change, switching to digest and lurking ... Bryan: Good luck on your new job. I appreciate someone with a strong opinion, even if I don't always agree. Best Regards, John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project +1 Take care :) Cheers, Marc From wy_2_k at yahoo.com Wed Aug 22 11:57:22 2007 From: wy_2_k at yahoo.com (Ama M) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 04:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Employment change, switching to digest and lurking ... Message-ID: <594406.69336.qm@web60019.mail.yahoo.com> Pity..:( I always like your _strong_ view points. It brings a new view/approach to a problem/discussions. ------------------------------------- Ama Mgbeoji http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AmaMgbeoji ------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ---- From: Bryan J. Smith To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:04:50 AM Subject: Employment change, switching to digest and lurking ... I've had an employment change. As such, I'm going to switch to the digest mode and go back to lurking. This is really driven by the fact that I can really no longer provide opinions here (much less the "over-opinionated" person I am, even called by some a "Red Hat apologist" ;). Hopefully I'll start by replacing the hot air I provide with some real contributions in the near future. I might start by a few screenshots of Seahorse, and a little docs, if Mr. Paulo will provide the insights. It's always good to step back and consider what others are saying, even if you don't see the viewpoint -- and I did that, and do now see some valid points he was making. I hope he'll work with me off-list. >From there I plan on hitting the Duke/YUM team to explore my ECM desires in hacks to YUM, in the hope they may be considered. My current hacks are Bash and I'd definitely have to turn them into integrated Python code. In any case, I will follow this list, because there are always good insights into what people are thinking, even if I disagree (sometimes a bit too strongly) with the analysis or suggestions. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Thu Aug 23 08:51:40 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:51:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Intro & observations In-Reply-To: References: <3032ee5e0708200817i1df43639vee8f7c12c9c75e51@mail.gmail.com> <1187654965.5699.485.camel@erato.phig.org> <46CAE119.9010207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <45718.192.54.193.51.1187859100.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le Mar 21 ao?t 2007 15:46, Davidson Rodrigues Paulo a ?crit : > 2007/8/21, Rahul Sundaram : >> So while you can document the graphical utilities better, the >> command >> line variants need to be retained. > > Right, this is part of the Free Software philosophy, that is, "do > things the way you want", not "I don't care if there is another way to GUI has the slight problem it's nightmarish to document, because the UI can be localised (and the localisation may be unstable), themes interfere, GUI devs like to change their UI every few releases, and you can't assume the same utilities are installed on KDE and GNOME desktops. That's why almost no one uses help pages for GUI tools, because they seem to get out of date all the time by design. Documentation is not impossible to do, but it requires several orders of magnitude more work than the CLI. -- Nicolas Mailhot From alejolucas at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 03:35:32 2007 From: alejolucas at gmail.com (Alejo Cerrat0) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:35:32 -0400 Subject: Intro & observations - Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 23 Message-ID: <3032ee5e0708232035s10c13781ic78d20f86c082a65@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the warm welcome! After reading your replies and comments I'd like to add: I was referring mostly to the fact that while trying to become a contributor you are learning what the next step by doing so, there's just not much documentation for the linux-impaired. It'll be great to have a wiki describing the whole process, and with some useful (and educational) information related like 'where are your keys saved in the disk', 'how to generate the files for your keys' etc. I don't think this piece of documentation to be hard to create, and it'll help some people to get past this obstacle. Regarding GUIs and CLIs, I see the concerns and different approaches, and the good thing about Fedora is that it offers the user more than one right way to do the same thing. It's just a matter of providing different tools and documentation for people with different skills. Is the possibility of a variety of ways, not the exclusion, what makes the project attractive. I appreciate all comments and look forward to read more. I'll also appreciate If somebody can point a direction (and give some guidance) to start creating this document. Alejo Cerrato.// -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 24 04:55:54 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:25:54 +0530 Subject: Intro & observations - Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 38, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: <3032ee5e0708232035s10c13781ic78d20f86c082a65@mail.gmail.com> References: <3032ee5e0708232035s10c13781ic78d20f86c082a65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46CE64DA.2040109@fedoraproject.org> Alejo Cerrat0 wrote: > I appreciate all comments and look forward to read more. > > I'll also appreciate If somebody can point a direction (and give some > guidance) to start creating this document. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiEditing http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WritingUsingTheWiki Rahul From jnanney at mscoast.com Fri Aug 24 06:08:05 2007 From: jnanney at mscoast.com (Jim Nanney) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:08:05 -0500 Subject: Not sure where to post this, but it is sort of marketing related... Message-ID: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 My wife and I started a business over the summer that is really starting to take off. In our quest to create our own income, we decided our path should be a Open Source only one. Now this may not seem so hard, but the area in which we live creates some logistical problems along that route. We run Fedora only at our house and our children have had exposure to a Free Software ONLY household the whole time. My belief in Free Software turned my wife into a Fedora user and amazingly she cannot stand other operating systems. Not because of the lack of freedom but because of the lack of usability. As such using any other operating system has been more of a headache to her than I ever thought possible. This is after many of my failed attempts over the years to switch her from other Operating Systems. Red Hat 9 was her first taste, but it was not enough to make her switch. Fedora 4 was when the switch actually occurred. I guess the background may be a bit much, but I wonder if any of you who are excellent writers would like to do a case study or interview of us about a business started purely from Open Source roots and the hassles and non-hassles that has come to surface from going down an open source only road. We really want to highlight to everyone that not only is the freedom provided by open source software available, but is a key ingredient in success from a business standpoint. Yes, as with any business there are obstacles, but with open source solutions these have been very minor when they could have been devastating. Our business is a grocery delivery business serving those who either have no capability to shop for themselves, no time to do it, or have better things to do with their time, or any combination of those three. Our business is pure open source, from the software that runs the web site, the software that runs the bookkeeping, and even the software we use to create our advertisements. By using these available open source solutions we have been able to customize what we need and yet save money. Total Cost of Ownership is a buzzword these days, but in essence, we are realizing huge cost savings on a daily basis. I guess I have rambled enough, but my main point is we are a great test case or point of reference for marketing Fedora in that we use its capabilities to the fullest for our business, and that is proving to have been an excellent choice. Feel free to contact me if you would like more info about how we use open source and in particular Fedora to further our business. Thanks, - --Jim Nanney I guess I should disclose that I signed up earlier this year to be a Fedora Ambassador and I have been a contributing member of the Fedora Free Media Project. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGznXE3GRPSy3vDJMRAinCAJ9zMmnlsLQoEUccGMEGp60EP0h4kQCgrjU9 3Qv7/kNUBme7zs3uQ+MCBgI= =Ko+C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jnanney at mscoast.com Fri Aug 24 06:29:07 2007 From: jnanney at mscoast.com (Jim Nanney) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:29:07 -0500 Subject: Not sure where to post this, but it is sort of marketing related... In-Reply-To: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> References: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> Message-ID: <46CE7AB3.7040604@mscoast.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I forgot to mention this disclaimer as it may be necessary: This is not a Press Release or an attempt to create web traffic. We currently serve only an area along the Mississippi Gulf Coast and any press mentioning our website address outside of our region would serve only to increase our hosting fees, not our sales. We do not service any areas outside of the Mississippi Gulf Coast. My only motivation in posting about us is an effort to help promote Fedora as a business friendly distribution with evidence to back up that claim. Thanks again, - --Jim Nanney -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGznqz3GRPSy3vDJMRAl6wAJ4gGv361OnjJ+x9dLQcj1/GzuTVSQCeJN+j sN2SG55DLdJui2neFL3t4b4= =hlVV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lisahoover at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 09:51:31 2007 From: lisahoover at gmail.com (Lisa Hoover) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:51:31 -0400 Subject: Not sure where to post this, but it is sort of marketing related... In-Reply-To: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> References: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> Message-ID: <7a2761170708240251x3d4e0a0me5e6c7851fa42fa6@mail.gmail.com> Jim, At the bottom of the page at Linux.com is a link titled "Write for us." You could offer to write up your story for them. :-) Lisa On 8/24/07, Jim Nanney wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > My wife and I started a business over the summer that is really starting > to take off. In our quest to create our own income, we decided our path > should be a Open Source only one. Now this may not seem so hard, but > the area in which we live creates some logistical problems along that > route. > > We run Fedora only at our house and our children have had exposure to a > Free Software ONLY household the whole time. My belief in Free Software > turned my wife into a Fedora user and amazingly she cannot stand other > operating systems. Not because of the lack of freedom but because of > the lack of usability. As such using any other operating system has > been more of a headache to her than I ever thought possible. This is > after many of my failed attempts over the years to switch her from other > Operating Systems. Red Hat 9 was her first taste, but it was not enough > to make her switch. Fedora 4 was when the switch actually occurred. > > I guess the background may be a bit much, but I wonder if any of you who > are excellent writers would like to do a case study or interview of us > about a business started purely from Open Source roots and the hassles > and non-hassles that has come to surface from going down an open source > only road. > > We really want to highlight to everyone that not only is the freedom > provided by open source software available, but is a key ingredient in > success from a business standpoint. Yes, as with any business there are > obstacles, but with open source solutions these have been very minor > when they could have been devastating. > > Our business is a grocery delivery business serving those who either > have no capability to shop for themselves, no time to do it, or have > better things to do with their time, or any combination of those three. > Our business is pure open source, from the software that runs the web > site, the software that runs the bookkeeping, and even the software we > use to create our advertisements. > > By using these available open source solutions we have been able to > customize what we need and yet save money. Total Cost of Ownership is a > buzzword these days, but in essence, we are realizing huge cost savings > on a daily basis. > > I guess I have rambled enough, but my main point is we are a great test > case or point of reference for marketing Fedora in that we use its > capabilities to the fullest for our business, and that is proving to > have been an excellent choice. > > Feel free to contact me if you would like more info about how we use > open source and in particular Fedora to further our business. > > Thanks, > > - --Jim Nanney > > I guess I should disclose that I signed up earlier this year to be a > Fedora Ambassador and I have been a contributing member of the Fedora > Free Media Project. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFGznXE3GRPSy3vDJMRAinCAJ9zMmnlsLQoEUccGMEGp60EP0h4kQCgrjU9 > 3Qv7/kNUBme7zs3uQ+MCBgI= > =Ko+C > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 24 10:18:56 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:48:56 +0530 Subject: Not sure where to post this, but it is sort of marketing related... In-Reply-To: <7a2761170708240251x3d4e0a0me5e6c7851fa42fa6@mail.gmail.com> References: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> <7a2761170708240251x3d4e0a0me5e6c7851fa42fa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46CEB090.2090109@fedoraproject.org> Lisa Hoover wrote: > Jim, > > At the bottom of the page at Linux.com is a link > titled "Write for us." You could offer to write up your story for them. :-) > > Lisa > > That's a pretty good idea actually. We don't want to be talking our success stories in between us. Reaching out to a wider audience is a good thing. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 25 18:06:39 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:36:39 +0530 Subject: Fedora Mini-conf at LCA2008 - Call for Presentations Message-ID: <46D06FAF.7060108@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://lwn.net/Articles/246699/ A Fedora mini-conf has been scheduled for linux.conf.au 2008 in Melbourne, Australia. Presentations are being solicited for 50, 25, and 10 minute slot Rahul From jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com Sat Aug 25 18:09:04 2007 From: jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com (Jonas Karlsson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:09:04 +0200 Subject: boinc in fedora? In-Reply-To: <46CEB090.2090109@fedoraproject.org> References: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> <7a2761170708240251x3d4e0a0me5e6c7851fa42fa6@mail.gmail.com> <46CEB090.2090109@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46D07040.3020403@fxdev.com> Hello, how about having Boinc (the client for distributed computing) part of the main repository. And fix a gui/make an integration to let say a screensaver activation so it only runs when user is idle. Use it as a marketing purpose and say fedora comes ready to participate in for example distributed climate prediction! //Jonas From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 25 18:22:18 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:52:18 +0530 Subject: boinc in fedora? In-Reply-To: <46D07040.3020403@fxdev.com> References: <46CE75C5.7030403@mscoast.com> <7a2761170708240251x3d4e0a0me5e6c7851fa42fa6@mail.gmail.com> <46CEB090.2090109@fedoraproject.org> <46D07040.3020403@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <46D0735A.5060402@fedoraproject.org> Jonas Karlsson wrote: > Hello, > how about having Boinc (the client for distributed computing) part of > the main repository. And fix a gui/make an integration to let say a > screensaver activation so it only runs when user is idle. Use it as a > marketing purpose and say fedora comes ready to participate in for > example distributed climate prediction! There are many such distributed clients. The Boinc client is under LGPL and can be made available in Fedora which would be the first step before connecting it to a screensaver. If you are interested in doing so, see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join Also FYI, http://wiki.debian.org/BOINC Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 25 23:37:35 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 05:07:35 +0530 Subject: Laptops designed for Linux: Matt Domsch Message-ID: <46D0BD3F.3020708@fedoraproject.org> Hi Matt Domsch, Dell employee and Fedora Board member talks about the importance of Free kernel drivers in the upstream kernel to the selection of Dell systems to run Linux amoung other details. Good to hear more people get the right ideas and spread it along. http://www.linuxworld.com/podcasts/linux/2007/081407-linuxcast.html "Now that Dell offers Linux as an option on desktops and notebooks, how does that affect the company's hardware selections? LinuxWorld Conference and Expo speaker Matt Domsch explains how Dell uses vendors' free drivers at kernel.org to help pick the hardware that goes into the next generation of Dell products." Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 26 02:09:24 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:09:24 +0800 Subject: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey Message-ID: <000001c7e786$21207e40$63617ac0$@id.au> Has anyone been keeping an eye on specific desktop use? Not just in Fedora but across the board. The 2007 Linux Survey was released with some interesting results. http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8454912761.html "The Red Hat/Fedora family -- which this year includes CentOS -- came in at the fourth spot with 9 percent. This represents a small loss from last year when Fedora had 7 percent, while Red Hat added in a mere 2.2 percent, for a total, including smaller Red Hat/Fedora-based distributions of less than 10 percent." Cheers, Marc Wiriadisastra From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 26 02:49:38 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:19:38 +0530 Subject: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey In-Reply-To: <000001c7e786$21207e40$63617ac0$@id.au> References: <000001c7e786$21207e40$63617ac0$@id.au> Message-ID: <46D0EA42.3000800@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Has anyone been keeping an eye on specific desktop use? Not just in Fedora > but across the board. The 2007 Linux Survey was released with some > interesting results. > > > http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8454912761.html > > "The Red Hat/Fedora family -- which this year includes CentOS -- came in at > the fourth spot with 9 percent. This represents a small loss from last year > when Fedora had 7 percent, while Red Hat added in a mere 2.2 percent, for a > total, including smaller Red Hat/Fedora-based distributions of less than 10 > percent." This is the results of the online survey of 38.000 users asking for their desktop/laptop usage. There are some odd results such as Gentoo being on 7% while Mandriva not showing up much at all. I wasn't even aware they were doing a survey earlier. Interesting results nevertheless. The usage of thunderbird and virtualbox for example. Rahul From nihedmm at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 07:11:33 2007 From: nihedmm at gmail.com (nihed mbarek) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 09:11:33 +0200 Subject: Using "Fedora" Message-ID: <5bddd8fd0708260011p286aad5bi839c0ba477e56104@mail.gmail.com> Hi, My friend develop an application to help person to install MP3, DIVX and ... codecs. he want to give the name "fedora goodies" to the application . I want to know if it's possible to use the word fedora or a trade mark or license exist to bann it ? ? Thanks -- M'BAREK Med Nihed, Fedora Ambassador, TUNISIA, Northern Africa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Aug 26 09:05:19 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 11:05:19 +0200 Subject: Using "Fedora" In-Reply-To: <5bddd8fd0708260011p286aad5bi839c0ba477e56104@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bddd8fd0708260011p286aad5bi839c0ba477e56104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D1424F.10502@kanarip.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 nihed mbarek wrote: > Hi, > My friend develop an application to help person to install MP3, DIVX and > ... codecs. > he want to give the name "fedora goodies" to the application . > I want to know if it's possible to use the word fedora or a trade mark > or license exist to bann it ? ? > He can't call it anything "Fedora" simply because it's not in Fedora, and it won't get in Fedora because it conflicts with our principles. However, 3rd party repositories may take it. I'd advise you to put it up for review at Livna: http://bugzilla.livna.org - -- Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen - -kanarip - -- http://www.kanarip.com/ RHCE, LPIC-2, MCP, CCNA C6B0 7FB4 43E6 CDDA D258 F70B 28DE 9FDA 9342 BF08 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG0UJNKN6f2pNCvwgRAuh9AKCQ2edUxjWfgS2Ni5U3YmmFzkkrcgCgq7sW JdjMMhfqw4/UQNMTXT8Gdvw= =fwB1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Sun Aug 26 10:40:56 2007 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:10:56 +0530 Subject: Event Report: WBUT install fest. part 1. Message-ID: Hi *, As I reported earlier, WBUT install fest and workshop was held yesterday and it was a success. People brought in their systems (not everybody though,they were provided with lab machines) and was interested in doing things. For this we did set up local repos. fedora everything, fedora update and livna. All the installations were http based. After the installation a short show followed. We shortly discussed and explained all the steps and people were really participating. from asking questions, to suggesting things. Debarshi was also there and so was Indra da . They helped a lot in organising this event. Also we got a number of valunteers who really helped us. These are a few photos... http://www.flickr.com/photos/indradg/sets/72157601661521969/ Thanks, Susmit. -- ssh 0x86DD170A http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SusmitShannigrahi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 26 10:57:15 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:57:15 +0800 Subject: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey In-Reply-To: <46D0EA42.3000800@fedoraproject.org> References: <000001c7e786$21207e40$63617ac0$@id.au> <46D0EA42.3000800@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <000f01c7e7cf$dded9550$99c8bff0$@id.au> -----Original Message----- From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Rahul Sundaram Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2007 10:50 AM To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Has anyone been keeping an eye on specific desktop use? Not just in Fedora > but across the board. The 2007 Linux Survey was released with some > interesting results. > > > http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8454912761.html > > "The Red Hat/Fedora family -- which this year includes CentOS -- came in at > the fourth spot with 9 percent. This represents a small loss from last year > when Fedora had 7 percent, while Red Hat added in a mere 2.2 percent, for a > total, including smaller Red Hat/Fedora-based distributions of less than 10 > percent." This is the results of the online survey of 38.000 users asking for their desktop/laptop usage. There are some odd results such as Gentoo being on 7% while Mandriva not showing up much at all. I wasn't even aware they were doing a survey earlier. Interesting results nevertheless. The usage of thunderbird and virtualbox for example. Rahul I would have to agree that there were some anomalies in the results which they openly admit to which is good. It's dependant on the users knowing about it and not knowing about it. I was surprised by KDE being as popular as it is for example. Thunderbird and Virtualbox as well (I've never heard of Virtualbox till that article). Bit of looking around shows Virtualbox having a GPL or LGPL license is there any chance of adding it to Fedora? Cheers, Marc From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 26 11:01:23 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:31:23 +0530 Subject: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey In-Reply-To: <000f01c7e7cf$dded9550$99c8bff0$@id.au> References: <000001c7e786$21207e40$63617ac0$@id.au> <46D0EA42.3000800@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7e7cf$dded9550$99c8bff0$@id.au> Message-ID: <46D15D83.6070808@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: . Thunderbird > and Virtualbox as well (I've never heard of Virtualbox till that article). > Bit of looking around shows Virtualbox having a GPL or LGPL license is there > any chance of adding it to Fedora? > Till Maas is working on it. See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList Lazarus which is required for Virtualbox is under review currently. Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 26 11:31:52 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 19:31:52 +0800 Subject: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey In-Reply-To: <46D15D83.6070808@fedoraproject.org> References: <000001c7e786$21207e40$63617ac0$@id.au> <46D0EA42.3000800@fedoraproject.org> <000f01c7e7cf$dded9550$99c8bff0$@id.au> <46D15D83.6070808@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <000001c7e7d4$b3e0ddd0$1ba29970$@id.au> > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora- > marketing-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Rahul Sundaram > Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2007 7:01 PM > To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base > Subject: Re: 2007 Desktop Linux Survey > > Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > . Thunderbird > > and Virtualbox as well (I've never heard of Virtualbox till that > article). > > Bit of looking around shows Virtualbox having a GPL or LGPL license > is there > > any chance of adding it to Fedora? > > > > Till Maas is working on it. > > See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList > > Lazarus which is required for Virtualbox is under review currently. > > Rahul > > Nice to see. Cheers, Marc Wiriadisastra From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 27 04:05:32 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:35:32 +0530 Subject: Event Report: WBUT install fest. part 1. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D24D8C.5080602@fedoraproject.org> susmit shannigrahi wrote: > Hi *, > > As I reported earlier, WBUT install fest and workshop was held yesterday > and it was a success. > People brought in their systems (not everybody though,they were provided > with > lab machines) and was interested in doing things. Good going folks. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 27 18:16:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:46:57 +0530 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent Message-ID: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> Hi A review of the creative commons live content image derived from Fedora 7. Should we be happy for the praise on Fedora 7 artwork or unhappy about the criticism that the derivative didn't tool well atleast in the eyes of the reviewer? Jack, you might want to take a look. http://www.linux.com/feature/118750 "Nor, unfortunately, does the LiveContent customization do much to inspire industry. The default Fedora 7 wallpaper, with its air-brushed armada of balloons ascending to the moon above clouds and mountains, may not be to everybody's taste, but at least it is unquestionably professional. However, LiveContent has replaced it with a lifeless gray-green design of its own with the unhelpful slogan "share, remix, reuse" and the Creative Commons URL." Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 27 17:55:43 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:55:43 -0400 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46D3101F.3010405@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Hi > > A review of the creative commons live content image derived from > Fedora 7. Should we be happy for the praise on Fedora 7 artwork or > unhappy about the criticism that the derivative didn't tool well > atleast in the eyes of the reviewer? Jack, you might want to take a look. > > http://www.linux.com/feature/118750 > > "Nor, unfortunately, does the LiveContent customization do much to > inspire industry. The default Fedora 7 wallpaper, with its air-brushed > armada of balloons ascending to the moon above clouds and mountains, > may not be to everybody's taste, but at least it is unquestionably > professional. However, LiveContent has replaced it with a lifeless > gray-green design of its own with the unhelpful slogan "share, remix, > reuse" and the Creative Commons URL." > > Rahul > Ouch! Not only about the Fedora substitutions, but about the project in general (at least as the article portrays it). I thought this disk would also include audio samples, not only free in license, but also in free formats (FLAC/Ogg), or video samples (Ogm, Ogg-theora). I certainly hope as the project matures, the actual included material will also broaden. From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Mon Aug 27 19:50:46 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 20:50:46 +0100 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D3101F.3010405@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3101F.3010405@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <3263b11b0708271250j2a63bfbcybbbc2bd985e40d0b@mail.gmail.com> Earlier this year I'd produced a project with almost identical aims to the CC Live CD, but being one guy (and am amateur at that) I haven't had time or the ability to polish it. However, some people might find it relevant to this discussion as some of the points that were mentioned in the article I think I might have addressed. The website, http://questionsplease.org/freeme/, is currently a touch out of date as I've created a version 2 in the last month or two with updated content and improved information about free culture etc. I've uploaded to my server a copy of the info pages that are on the disc, which auto-run from Windows and Ubuntu on version 2 (not Fedora, though I have intended to make a Fedora version, I haven't been able to figure it out yet!), describing the content and some of the background to the project - so this features updated info compared to what's on the currently downloadable version. So if you're interested, download it and take a look at http://questionsplease.org/freeme/freeme.tar.gz. I hope some people find this interesting, and perhaps if you think this might address some of the issues the CC people are facing might pass on the relevant information to them - I'd be quite willing to help :D Best wishes all, Jon From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Aug 28 06:34:15 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:34:15 +0300 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46D3C1E7.9060208@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > A review of the creative commons live content image derived from Fedora > 7. Should we be happy for the praise on Fedora 7 artwork or unhappy > about the criticism that the derivative didn't tool well atleast in the > eyes of the reviewer? Jack, you might want to take a look. > > http://www.linux.com/feature/118750 Back when the LiveContent CD was released I intended to write on my own blog a small *positive* review (got busy with some personal things, delayed a few days and considered is already too late and scratched the idea). So of course I disagree with the reviewer on *many* points. In my opinion the biggest weakness of the CD is its small amount of content included, this is the most important point for a "Content" CD. And I think I understand the cause: the disk was co-developed by Worldlabel.com, which has a business around OpenOffice.org. If OpenOffice.org would be removed from the disk, then *a lot* of space can be freed for actual content. Bruce say in his review "the welcome page begins by repeating the vague rhetoric of the project wiki" - this is so easy to fix, just change the wording in the wiki, this is why it is a wiki. I do not agree with the critic of not having Evolution installed, this is a CD about content not for general use on the desktop. If the user install it on the hard drive he can easily do an "yum install thunderbird" or "yum install evolution" (the CD does not have pirut, otherwise it would be even easier). I didn't look at the final 1.0 but only at a release candidate, so I may not be 100% correct, but as an Open Clip Art Library developer I specifically looked for it on the CD and definitely the browsing interface was in the pre-installed Firefox bookmarks so I see no reason to complain about that. Yes, it would be nicer to have the content available for offline use, but I can understand: 1) there is not enough space on the disc for +100MB of clipart images because of OpenOffice.org and 2) we (OCAL) failed for quite some time to produce a proper up-to-date package. One thingI didn't like was the link to blip.tv, where the user can access CC licensed content but can't use it from the LiveContent CD because the content in in Flash format... > "Nor, unfortunately, does the LiveContent customization do much to > inspire industry. The default Fedora 7 wallpaper, with its air-brushed > armada of balloons ascending to the moon above clouds and mountains, may > not be to everybody's taste, but at least it is unquestionably > professional. However, LiveContent has replaced it with a lifeless > gray-green design of its own with the unhelpful slogan "share, remix, > reuse" and the Creative Commons URL." I don't agree even here: in fact I kind of liked the look, it was clean and simple (and I like "lifeless gray-green", colors which fit the theme used in the CC buttons available all over the web, see [1]). Of course it has to use something different than the Fedora blue and Fedora imagery, as it is not Fedora but a derivative distro. [1] - http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-sa/3.0/us/88x31.png -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Aug 28 06:00:42 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:00:42 -0400 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D3C1E7.9060208@nicubunu.ro> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3C1E7.9060208@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46D3BA0A.5060304@prodigy.net.mx> Nicu Buculei escribi?: > I didn't look at the final 1.0 but only at a release candidate, so I > may not be 100% correct, but as an Open Clip Art Library developer I > specifically looked for it on the CD and definitely the browsing > interface was in the pre-installed Firefox bookmarks so I see no > reason to complain about that. Yes, it would be nicer to have the > content available for offline use, but I can understand: 1) there is > not enough space on the disc for +100MB of clipart images because of > OpenOffice.org and 2) we (OCAL) failed for quite some time to produce > a proper up-to-date package. Why not make a LiveDVD, then? DVD's would be much more suited for "media" and "content" oriented LiveDisk projects. Granted not everyone has access to highspeed internet connections to download and burn these images, but a distribution channel I'm sure could be set up. Even in a DVD there's room for all of OOo with all and its lang-packs (so every language the distro supports also has a corresponding OOo language and resource... Not to mention it opens up the possibility to include so much more content (video, audio, writings, pictures, etc) > > One thingI didn't like was the link to blip.tv, where the user can > access CC licensed content but can't use it from the LiveContent CD > because the content in in Flash format... Doesn't it include GNASH? The latest release supports rather well video playback from on-line sources such as YouTube and GoogleVideo, it'd only make sense to make sure it also played nice with the video player on the sites the Disk links to... Or at least let the Gnash developers know of these so they could broaden their test cases. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Aug 28 07:08:28 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:08:28 +0300 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D3BA0A.5060304@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3C1E7.9060208@nicubunu.ro> <46D3BA0A.5060304@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46D3C9EC.8040906@nicubunu.ro> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > Why not make a LiveDVD, then? DVD's would be much more suited for > "media" and "content" oriented LiveDisk projects. Granted not everyone > has access to highspeed internet connections to download and burn these > images, but a distribution channel I'm sure could be set up. Even in a > DVD there's room for all of OOo with all and its lang-packs (so every > language the distro supports also has a corresponding OOo language and > resource... Not to mention it opens up the possibility to include so > much more content (video, audio, writings, pictures, etc) I don't know why CC used the CD format, I believe they wanted to reach the largest possible audience (more people can read CD than DVD). I suspect the connection speed was not the main concern and the main distribution channel for that disc is physical media. > Doesn't it include GNASH? The latest release supports rather well video > playback from on-line sources such as YouTube and GoogleVideo, it'd only > make sense to make sure it also played nice with the video player on the > sites the Disk links to... Or at least let the Gnash developers know of > these so they could broaden their test cases. Gnash using ffmpeg? You know ffmpeg is not allowed in Fedora... -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Aug 28 06:26:16 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 02:26:16 -0400 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D3C9EC.8040906@nicubunu.ro> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3C1E7.9060208@nicubunu.ro> <46D3BA0A.5060304@prodigy.net.mx> <46D3C9EC.8040906@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46D3C008.3050704@prodigy.net.mx> Nicu Buculei escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: >> >> Why not make a LiveDVD, then? DVD's would be much more suited for >> "media" and "content" oriented LiveDisk projects. Granted not >> everyone has access to highspeed internet connections to download and >> burn these images, but a distribution channel I'm sure could be set >> up. Even in a DVD there's room for all of OOo with all and its >> lang-packs (so every language the distro supports also has a >> corresponding OOo language and resource... Not to mention it opens up >> the possibility to include so much more content (video, audio, >> writings, pictures, etc) > > I don't know why CC used the CD format, I believe they wanted to reach > the largest possible audience (more people can read CD than DVD). I > suspect the connection speed was not the main concern and the main > distribution channel for that disc is physical media. I see... However, with the recent prices on DVD drives, there's virtually no excuse for many computer users to have one... except maybe laptop users whose laptops were shipped with CD drives. No justification, I know, but at least it *is* very cheap to get a DVD drive. > >> Doesn't it include GNASH? The latest release supports rather well >> video playback from on-line sources such as YouTube and GoogleVideo, >> it'd only make sense to make sure it also played nice with the video >> player on the sites the Disk links to... Or at least let the Gnash >> developers know of these so they could broaden their test cases. > > Gnash using ffmpeg? You know ffmpeg is not allowed in Fedora... I know, though I find it rather funny for CC content to not be available in free formats, but that's just me, I'm sure. But since that's the case, why even link to those, then? The users won't be able to view them anyway... From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Aug 28 07:38:11 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:38:11 +0300 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D3C008.3050704@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3C1E7.9060208@nicubunu.ro> <46D3BA0A.5060304@prodigy.net.mx> <46D3C9EC.8040906@nicubunu.ro> <46D3C008.3050704@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46D3D0E3.9050100@nicubunu.ro> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > I know, though I find it rather funny for CC content to not be available > in free formats, but that's just me, I'm sure. But since that's the > case, why even link to those, then? The users won't be able to view them > anyway... Exactly the same was may own question and I think is a better concern compared with the ramblings about gray wallpapers in the linked review. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 28 19:10:38 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:40:38 +0530 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0708271250j2a63bfbcybbbc2bd985e40d0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3101F.3010405@prodigy.net.mx> <3263b11b0708271250j2a63bfbcybbbc2bd985e40d0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D4732E.4070002@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: n about free culture etc. > > I've uploaded to my server a copy of the info pages that are on the > disc, which auto-run from Windows and Ubuntu on version 2 (not Fedora, > though I have intended to make a Fedora version, I haven't been able > to figure it out yet!) If you explain what you are trying to do and ask in fedora-live cd list, you should be able to get help. It is pretty simple and you would only need a kickstart file. We could even make this part of the Fedora 8 release. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 28 19:20:23 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:50:23 +0530 Subject: Three MythTV Linux distros compared Message-ID: <46D47577.9060105@fedoraproject.org> Hi Somewhat superficial review but can be useful to gather some basic information if you are interested in a MythTV box http://www.linux.com/feature/118668 " My Series 1 TiVo is getting old, so I am planning an escape route based on MythTV, a free software system that turns an old computer into a personal video recorder. This week I tested three MythTV-specific Linux distributions: KnoppMyth, MythDora, and MythBuntu. I found MythDora the best overall fit for my needs" "MythDora 4 is built on top of Fedora Core 6, also providing MythTV 0.20.1, and is available (via direct download only) as a 1.0GB DVD ISO image or as two CD-sized ISO images." Rahul From mackay3 at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 16:10:42 2007 From: mackay3 at gmail.com (John Mackay) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:10:42 -0600 Subject: Ref:Re: linuxglobe media disc proposal In-Reply-To: <46C0018A.1090000@nicubunu.ro> References: <5d88dfb00708101826x2fb2d43i5fc63631f8072877@mail.gmail.com> <46BD35C1.2000702@prodigy.net.mx> <46C0018A.1090000@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <5d88dfb00708290910s6440bd6dxffccf2e81a50116c@mail.gmail.com> Just found out by myself in Dreamlinux (Preinstalled with GimpShop), Gimpshop just re-arranges the menus -.- and doesnt deals with the GUI?s individual window management as opposed to photoshop?s windowing contained within the program, so >_> guess it will just easy a bit a Photoshop conversion, but not the GUI, to correct my previous message. 2007/8/13, Nicu Buculei : > > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > John Mackay escribi?: > >> yup, I?ve heard about it. What about including Gimpshop? its supossed > >> to be a GUI configuration much alike photoshop, so people can make the > >> jump way easier. > > Actually I'm one of those who "despise" GimpShop, as I learned how to > > use a graphics program using The GIMP, not PhotoShop. Now I find > > PhotoShop's tools and layout "counter intuitive", hehe > > While I am also familiar with the GIMP and would prefer to get a Fedora > package for the development branch of it (2.4), I believe a package for > Gimpshop would be welcomed, so John, I thing nobody will object if you > submit a Gimpshop package :D > > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Wed Aug 29 16:33:22 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:33:22 +0100 Subject: Discontent with LiveContent In-Reply-To: <46D4732E.4070002@fedoraproject.org> References: <46D31519.6010106@fedoraproject.org> <46D3101F.3010405@prodigy.net.mx> <3263b11b0708271250j2a63bfbcybbbc2bd985e40d0b@mail.gmail.com> <46D4732E.4070002@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3263b11b0708290933w7412e9efgcc3711cfd98db233@mail.gmail.com> > If you explain what you are trying to do and ask in fedora-live cd list, > you should be able to get help. It is pretty simple and you would only > need a kickstart file. We could even make this part of the Fedora 8 release. Lol, I have asked before but I'm afraid I can be a bit slow technically sometimes and I felt silly for asking repeatedly for something so simple!! (Essentially all it needs is a sym link adding to the desktop to point at the folder on the root of the disc). Would be super cool to have it made a part of the F8 release but I don't have the time to make the changes myself just now as I start uni this autumn and have a million things to do before going away! If anybody was interested in picking this up and working with me on it things might be a bit more realistic, I could even send out a disc with all the material I currently have on it to save bandwidth download time... Best wishes, Jon From giacomo_succi at email.it Wed Aug 29 19:13:14 2007 From: giacomo_succi at email.it (Giacomo Succi) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:13:14 +0200 Subject: Hello everybody. Message-ID: <46D5C54A.9020300@email.it> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello. I'm Giacomo. I'm a student at the computer science department of the University Of Pisa (Italy). I'm a brand new "member" (member is too much for my actual skills xD) of the ArtWork team and mrs. M?ir?n Duffy suggest me to help you (as a first "work") to find a new slogan for Fedora 8. And here I am :). I hope to help you in this task :). My brain is looking for something "beautiful" for the slogan. Well I'ven't, for the moment, not so much to tell. I whish, to all of you, a good job. See ya :)! P.S. Sorry for my not-so-perfect english ?_?! - -- Giacomo Succi - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Contacts: eMail: giacomo_succi at email.it; AIM: Anandir82 Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176 J: Anandir at jabber.org; MSN: anandir at email.it GPG: 0x52CDCA27 GPG Server: http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1cVKUda2pFLNyicRAtyTAJ9yvLpqZR5jODkBJ9oyIKLdXtpQSACgrxrj DJBSqcvLctBvFkk1+ZbKazM= =Djxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: 250 biglietti da visita Gratis + 42 modelli e Etichette per Indirizzo Gratis + Porta biglietti Gratis -Offerta limitata! Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6782&d=29-8 From gerold at lugd.org Wed Aug 29 19:24:28 2007 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:24:28 +0200 Subject: Hello everybody. In-Reply-To: <46D5C54A.9020300@email.it> References: <46D5C54A.9020300@email.it> Message-ID: <1188415468.17357.2.camel@F7NB.homenet.local> Ciao Giacomo, welcome to the "European Ambassadors"; also a "good idea" is to contact our other Italian Ambassadors e.g. FrancescoUgolini; I'm sure he'll help you to find a way to help, contribute and get in touch with the others .... Regards GeroldKa Am Mittwoch, den 29.08.2007, 21:13 +0200 schrieb Giacomo Succi: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello. > I'm Giacomo. > I'm a student at the computer science department of the University Of > Pisa (Italy). > I'm a brand new "member" (member is too much for my actual skills xD) of the > ArtWork team and mrs. M?ir?n Duffy suggest me to help you (as a first "work") to > find a new slogan for Fedora 8. > And here I am :). > I hope to help you in this task :). > My brain is looking for something "beautiful" for the slogan. > Well I'ven't, for the moment, not so much to tell. > > I whish, to all of you, a good job. > See ya :)! > > P.S. > Sorry for my not-so-perfect english ?_?! > > - -- > Giacomo Succi > > - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- > Contacts: > eMail: giacomo_succi at email.it; AIM: Anandir82 > Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176 > J: Anandir at jabber.org; MSN: anandir at email.it > > GPG: 0x52CDCA27 > GPG Server: http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de > - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFG1cVKUda2pFLNyicRAtyTAJ9yvLpqZR5jODkBJ9oyIKLdXtpQSACgrxrj > DJBSqcvLctBvFkk1+ZbKazM= > =Djxf > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f > > Sponsor: > 250 biglietti da visita Gratis + 42 modelli e Etichette per Indirizzo Gratis + Porta biglietti Gratis -Offerta limitata! > Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6782&d=29-8 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From giacomo_succi at email.it Wed Aug 29 19:34:37 2007 From: giacomo_succi at email.it (Giacomo Succi) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:34:37 +0200 Subject: Hello everybody. In-Reply-To: <1188415468.17357.2.camel@F7NB.homenet.local> References: <46D5C54A.9020300@email.it> <1188415468.17357.2.camel@F7NB.homenet.local> Message-ID: <46D5CA4D.9060706@email.it> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > also a "good idea" is to contact our other Italian Ambassadors e.g. > FrancescoUgolini; I'm sure he'll help you to find a way to help, > contribute and get in touch with the others .... Thanks a lot for the suggestion and thanks to all of you for the acceptance you gave me :)! Best wishes! > GeroldKa - -- Giacomo Succi - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Contacts: eMail: giacomo_succi at email.it; AIM: Anandir82 Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176 J: Anandir at jabber.org; MSN: anandir at email.it GPG: 0x52CDCA27 GPG Server: http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1cpMUda2pFLNyicRArSpAKC0ij41abdqaQ6nNbCe+rXYfE87mwCfZvcX sQy/iOAKLfJpOjny/7OFypE= =YM3C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Hai bisogno di contanti per realizzare i tuoi desideri? Prometeo ti propone prestiti da 1.500 a 31.000 Euro! Clicca qui per un preventivo immediato. Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6916&d=29-8 From giacomo_succi at email.it Wed Aug 29 20:17:10 2007 From: giacomo_succi at email.it (Giacomo Succi) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:17:10 +0200 Subject: First slogan ideas. Message-ID: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 That's are my first attempt to a slogan for Fedora 8. "Fedora, an operating system with a limitless power." I think that is really horrible... "Freedom; Simplicity; Technology Edge. Fedora. Your operating system." I don't know if "Technology Edge" is the right expression for this idea "is always pushing the boundaries of technology" "Freedom; Collaboration; Future ready. Fedora. Your operating system." Same as above. "Freedom, Simplicity, Collaboration, Ready for the Future. Fedora. Your operating system." A composition of the two above. "The future of the operating systems is here. Fedora. My choice." For me this slogan express mainly the idea of pushing on and on the technology and the idea of community. For the moment I've no more idea. I'm waiting for you critics, ideas, suggestions :). Best regards :)! - -- Giacomo Succi - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Contacts: eMail: giacomo_succi at email.it; AIM: Anandir82 Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176 J: Anandir at jabber.org; MSN: anandir at email.it GPG: 0x52CDCA27 GPG Server: http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1dRGUda2pFLNyicRAiusAJ0a0suuc3cRFialRqN8EoJtuqmo4QCeJAQh hOdXHhAnnUHSf0cSjPorU5Q= =fgz+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Entra in Mondolastminute, centinaia di offerte ti aspettano per le tue vacanze a prezzi lastminute! Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6851&d=29-8 From dpaulo at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 29 20:39:52 2007 From: dpaulo at fedoraproject.org (Davidson Rodrigues Paulo) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:39:52 -0300 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> Message-ID: 2007/8/29, Giacomo Succi : > "The future of the operating systems is here. Fedora. My choice." "My choice"... I liked. Sounds good. I had an idea: "Fedora. The operating system I can call 'mine'." I'm not sure if this is correctly written, sorry if not. Regards, Davidson From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Aug 29 21:36:35 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:36:35 +0100 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> Message-ID: <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> ???? 29-08-2007, ????? ???, ??? ??? 17:39 -0300, ?/? Davidson Rodrigues Paulo ??????: > 2007/8/29, Giacomo Succi : > > "The future of the operating systems is here. Fedora. My choice." > > "My choice"... I liked. Sounds good. I had an idea: What do you think about the "current" one? "Infinity. Freedom. Voice."? We used it here on some websites and on a poster of ours: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/StatisticsPoster We shouldn't use words we can't prove like eg. "the future of OSs" or long lists of words (max 3). "Fedora: my choice." is a good one. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From duffy at redhat.com Wed Aug 29 21:48:48 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrcKtbiBEdWZmeQ==?=) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:48:48 -0400 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> Message-ID: <46D5E9C0.8050006@redhat.com> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > ???? 29-08-2007, ????? ???, ??? ??? 17:39 -0300, ?/? Davidson Rodrigues > Paulo ??????: >> 2007/8/29, Giacomo Succi : >>> "The future of the operating systems is here. Fedora. My choice." >> "My choice"... I liked. Sounds good. I had an idea: > > What do you think about the "current" one? "Infinity. Freedom. Voice."? > We used it here on some websites and on a poster of ours: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/StatisticsPoster I really like that one but it's more for Fedora as a whole.... I was thinking it would be nice to come up with one specific to Fedora 8. Kind of like for FC6 we had the DNA so the slogan in the www.fpo banner was was 'Fedora: the next evolution in operating systems' and for F7 we have balloons so it's 'Fedora - the operating system that reaches higher' Something that relates strongly to the artwork theme. When I first thought about the F8 theme (Infinity) I thought the slogan could be "Fedora: Infinite Boundaries" but I don't know if that's a good one still. While the idea driving the artwork was Infinity, I think it visually speaks more to community: "I rather like this image, because it reminds me of the old story about the Iroquois Nation I learned in school - the Iroquois Native Americans were a federation of many different tribes of the Northeastern United States. They came together as a united nation, and one of the stories told about the formation of this nation talk about how each tribe was seperately a single arrow, easy to break. But together, they were a bunch of arrows, which is much harder to break. Fedora is made up of a lot of folks from all around the world, and alone each person might not be able to accomplish Fedora, but all together we can built a great OS." So maybe something along those lines.... ~m From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Aug 29 21:46:55 2007 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:46:55 -0500 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> Message-ID: <46D5E94F.1020705@redhat.com> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > ???? 29-08-2007, ????? ???, ??? ??? 17:39 -0300, ?/? Davidson Rodrigues > Paulo ??????: > >> 2007/8/29, Giacomo Succi : >> >>> "The future of the operating systems is here. Fedora. My choice." >>> >> "My choice"... I liked. Sounds good. I had an idea: >> > > What do you think about the "current" one? "Infinity. Freedom. Voice."? > We used it here on some websites and on a poster of ours: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/StatisticsPoster > > We shouldn't use words we can't prove like eg. "the future of OSs" or > long lists of words (max 3). > > "Fedora: my choice." is a good one. > Is this slogan supposed to be analogous Ubuntu's "Linux for human beings." Line? The only reason I ask is that that line is not only famous but it answers the question, "What is Ubuntu?" -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 30 03:23:36 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:53:36 +0530 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <46D5E9C0.8050006@redhat.com> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> <46D5E9C0.8050006@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46D63838.2030404@fedoraproject.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > > When I first thought about the F8 theme (Infinity) I thought the slogan > could be "Fedora: Infinite Boundaries" but I don't know if that's a good > one still. While Infinity in the original logo concept was about freedom, I took it to mean Infinite Potential since I think our freedoms are limited but potentials are more expandable. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu Aug 30 03:56:24 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:56:24 -0400 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <46D63838.2030404@fedoraproject.org> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> <46D5E9C0.8050006@redhat.com> <46D63838.2030404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46D63FE8.5070702@prodigy.net.mx> Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > >> >> When I first thought about the F8 theme (Infinity) I thought the >> slogan could be "Fedora: Infinite Boundaries" but I don't know if >> that's a good one still. > > While Infinity in the original logo concept was about freedom, I took > it to mean Infinite Potential since I think our freedoms are limited > but potentials are more expandable. > > Rahul > And with patent encumbered software and copy right restrictions, the limitations are rather harsh... I like the Potentials concept... "Infinite Potential", something like "F8: Unleash your infinite potential" From giacomo_succi at email.it Thu Aug 30 06:55:56 2007 From: giacomo_succi at email.it (Giacomo Succi) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:55:56 +0200 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <46D63FE8.5070702@prodigy.net.mx> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> <46D5E9C0.8050006@redhat.com> <46D63838.2030404@fedoraproject.org> <46D63FE8.5070702@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <46D669FC.4000601@email.it> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 First, thanks to everyone for all the messages. I really appreciate all your comments/critics. Yesterday night I got another idea. Thinking to the infinity I think to the universe. A slogan could be: "In an universe of operating systems Fedora is my guiding star." It'sn't a good one. But the idea is this one. - -- Giacomo Succi - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Contacts: eMail: giacomo_succi at email.it; AIM: Anandir82 Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176 J: Anandir at jabber.org; MSN: anandir at email.it GPG: 0x52CDCA27 GPG Server: http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG1mn8Uda2pFLNyicRAik7AJ48ObJGVpCkaQlDejMYPPYmnOmFqQCgszXw oZjtdHO9R2Wmhh+m2s0K/7k= =UtMx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6905&d=30-8 From omen at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 30 07:48:33 2007 From: omen at fedoraproject.org (Saadaldine AlSaidi) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:48:33 +0300 Subject: Another Slogan Idea. Message-ID: <200708301048.33378.omen@fedoraproject.org> Thinking of a slogan for fedora, triggers creativity :D what do you think of, "Fedora, The Open Source Freedom, For open Free Minds." -------------------------- SaadAldine AlSaidi. From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 18:48:13 2007 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:48:13 -0400 Subject: README for official ISO spins Message-ID: <1188499693.3652.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> The Fedora Documentation Project would like an updated README on the official ISO spin for F8. Currently, we are using the updated version of the same README that dates back to at least Red Hat Linux 5.2, according to one prominent engineering guru. This would be a good effort for Marketing, and to make sure we cover the bases, I've left a short outline on a wiki page for drafting. This page is editable by anyone and we can set a deadline of 10 days for content, which we would like to get into the test3 spin if at all possible. If you'd like to be involved, visit this wiki page and follow the outline: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/README If you see something missing, please feel free to add it. The Docs Project volunteers will edit for grammar and usage, although good grammar and usage is always appreciated. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ravisagar at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 12:19:23 2007 From: ravisagar at gmail.com (ravisagar at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:49:23 +0530 Subject: README for official ISO spins In-Reply-To: <1188499693.3652.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1188499693.3652.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9ef639d90708310519t4ac4dc9dq8ee64addf2ecd58f@mail.gmail.com> Paul, I saw My name is Ravi Sagar. I recently joined Ambassador group. I would like to give my inputs for updating README page. Should I update this page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/README directly? Let me know. Thanks On 8/31/07, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > The Fedora Documentation Project would like an updated README on the > official ISO spin for F8. Currently, we are using the updated version > of the same README that dates back to at least Red Hat Linux 5.2, > according to one prominent engineering guru. > > This would be a good effort for Marketing, and to make sure we cover the > bases, I've left a short outline on a wiki page for drafting. This page > is editable by anyone and we can set a deadline of 10 days for content, > which we would like to get into the test3 spin if at all possible. > > If you'd like to be involved, visit this wiki page and follow the > outline: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/README > > If you see something missing, please feel free to add it. The Docs > Project volunteers will edit for grammar and usage, although good > grammar and usage is always appreciated. :-) > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > -- > fedora-docs-list mailing list > fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 31 14:08:51 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:38:51 +0530 Subject: README for official ISO spins In-Reply-To: <9ef639d90708310519t4ac4dc9dq8ee64addf2ecd58f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1188499693.3652.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> <9ef639d90708310519t4ac4dc9dq8ee64addf2ecd58f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D820F3.1080000@fedoraproject.org> ravisagar at gmail.com wrote: > Paul, > > I saw My name is Ravi Sagar. I recently joined Ambassador group. > I would like to give my inputs for updating README page. Should I update > this page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/README > directly? > > Let me know. Yes. Rahul From alejolucas at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 14:31:49 2007 From: alejolucas at gmail.com (Alejo Cerrat0) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:31:49 -0400 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> Message-ID: <3032ee5e0708310731w174f0798u56f4c8ee4f2e096b@mail.gmail.com> HI, My name is Alejo Cerrato and I'd like to contribute with the slogan. what about 'Freedom of Choice' It appeals both to the fact that is a free of charge distro and that it can be customized for every single user's preferences. It's also short and catchy. Let me know what you think. On 8/29/07, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > ???? 29-08-2007, ????? ???, ??? ??? 17:39 -0300, ?/? Davidson Rodrigues > Paulo ??????: > > 2007/8/29, Giacomo Succi : > > > "The future of the operating systems is here. Fedora. My choice." > > > > "My choice"... I liked. Sounds good. I had an idea: > > What do you think about the "current" one? "Infinity. Freedom. Voice."? > We used it here on some websites and on a poster of ours: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/StatisticsPoster > > We shouldn't use words we can't prove like eg. "the future of OSs" or > long lists of words (max 3). > > "Fedora: my choice." is a good one. > > -d > > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ > > > "He who gives up functionality for ease of use > loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) > -- > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From giacomo_succi at email.it Fri Aug 31 15:15:22 2007 From: giacomo_succi at email.it (Giacomo Succi) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 17:15:22 +0200 Subject: First slogan ideas. In-Reply-To: <3032ee5e0708310731w174f0798u56f4c8ee4f2e096b@mail.gmail.com> References: <46D5D446.6040509@email.it> <1188423395.8082.16.camel@shuttle> <3032ee5e0708310731w174f0798u56f4c8ee4f2e096b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46D8308A.1020709@email.it> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > My name is Alejo Cerrato and I'd like to contribute with the slogan > what about 'Freedom of Choice' Sounds good to me :). Maybe something like "Fedora. Freedom Of Choice." is a little bit better. - -- Giacomo Succi - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Contacts: eMail: giacomo_succi at email.it; AIM: Anandir82 Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176 J: Anandir at jabber.org; MSN: anandir at email.it GPG: 0x52CDCA27 GPG Server: http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG2DCKUda2pFLNyicRApQ6AJ9t7KpcphStG1RV5OwIyR64y6vvYwCgmt6G 0TymhkmNmRnvFjovo/0vBqw= =Oaln -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Cerchi un?auto usata, vuoi vendere il camper o il cellulare? Prova Email.it Annunci, pochi click per pubblicare e trovare ci? che vuoi! Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6893&d=31-8 From hudsonman35 at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 16:59:47 2007 From: hudsonman35 at gmail.com (Markus McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:59:47 -0400 Subject: Possible Slogans for F8, F9, or F10 Message-ID: Infinite Freedom Diverse Free Voice Your Voice, Your Future The Future Is Now Infinite Possibilities Logical System, Logical Future Voice - Infinity - Future Mark McLaughlin linuxglobe.wordpress.com Hudson, MA, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mackay3 at gmail.com Fri Aug 31 18:17:00 2007 From: mackay3 at gmail.com (John Mackay) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:17:00 -0600 Subject: Possible Slogans for F8, F9, or F10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d88dfb00708311117r6507fa26raf67552a1c4b339f@mail.gmail.com> Neogeo, a game company of the 80?s used "The future is now". Have you tought of something alike - Beautiful is usefull? A short sentence, with the idea how something becomes beatiful determined by its usefullness. 2007/8/31, Markus McLaughlin : > > Infinite Freedom > > Diverse Free Voice > > Your Voice, Your Future > > The Future Is Now > > Infinite Possibilities > > Logical System, Logical Future > > Voice - Infinity - Future > > Mark McLaughlin > linuxglobe.wordpress.com > Hudson, MA, USA > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: