From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Fri Jun 1 00:22:04 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:22:04 +0800 Subject: Fedora 7 release day In-Reply-To: <465EF300.3050601@paradigma.pt> References: <465EE3DD.1000207@paradigma.pt> <465EF300.3050601@paradigma.pt> Message-ID: <1180657324.4142.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 17:08 +0100, Vitor Domingos wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > On 05/31/2007 04:54 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > > Yes. Remember FC6 everyone? By this time on that release day, ALL OF > > REDHAT.COM AND FEDORAPROJECT.ORG HAD CRASHED > > Cof..cof.. Akamai ? Amazon AWS (the cheaper cousin) :) > > > our infrastructure team deserves MAJOR THANKS and zero criticism. > > I'm not criticizing. I'm stating that: > http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/ is 503 > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki is responding slow > > Not many mirrors have the relase - here in Europe is hell to find one > that has. And yes, the infraestruture team as well as the other teams > deserves all major thanks for what they've achieved with this release. > Use the torrents I got it within an hour of release. Regards, Marc P.S. Congrats to infrastructure and all who helped. From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jun 1 19:20:46 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:20:46 -0700 Subject: rotating banners, first idea Message-ID: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more popular spins. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ben.lewis at benl.co.uk Fri Jun 1 19:29:34 2007 From: ben.lewis at benl.co.uk (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:29:34 +0100 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4660739E.1040401@benl.co.uk> Nice idea! I say go with it. Karsten Wade wrote: > We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of > fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) > > The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. > Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked > over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that > Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. > > Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is > it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? > > And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: > > 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on > the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it > might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the > popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' > > The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a > special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more > popular spins. > > - Karsten > -- Benjamin Lewis Fedora Ambassador ben.lewis at benl.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" -- RFC 1118 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ben.lewis.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 889 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From ben.lewis at benl.co.uk Fri Jun 1 19:29:34 2007 From: ben.lewis at benl.co.uk (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 20:29:34 +0100 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4660739E.1040401@benl.co.uk> Nice idea! I say go with it. Karsten Wade wrote: > We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of > fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) > > The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. > Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked > over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that > Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. > > Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is > it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? > > And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: > > 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on > the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it > might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the > popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' > > The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a > special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more > popular spins. > > - Karsten > -- Benjamin Lewis Fedora Ambassador ben.lewis at benl.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" -- RFC 1118 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ben.lewis.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 889 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From diegobz at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 20:31:33 2007 From: diegobz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Diego_B=FArigo_Zacar=E3o?=) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:31:33 -0300 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4660739E.1040401@benl.co.uk> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <4660739E.1040401@benl.co.uk> Message-ID: <6600c1b10706011331w1332292as9a2f59439bd444a9@mail.gmail.com> +1 2007/6/1, Benjamin Lewis : > Nice idea! I say go with it. > > Karsten Wade wrote: > > We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of > > fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) > > > > The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. > > Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked > > over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that > > Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. > > > > Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is > > it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? > > > > And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: > > > > 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on > > the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it > > might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the > > popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' > > > > The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a > > special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more > > popular spins. > > > > - Karsten > > > > -- > > Benjamin Lewis > Fedora Ambassador > ben.lewis at benl.co.uk > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C > > "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" > -- RFC 1118 > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Diego B?rigo Zacar?o Linux User #402589 USE SOFTWARE LIVRE From rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org Sat Jun 2 00:19:29 2007 From: rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 21:19:29 -0300 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <6600c1b10706011331w1332292as9a2f59439bd444a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <4660739E.1040401@benl.co.uk> <6600c1b10706011331w1332292as9a2f59439bd444a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4660B791.5050909@projetofedora.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Great!!! +1 Diego B?rigo Zacar?o escreveu: > +1 > > 2007/6/1, Benjamin Lewis : >> Nice idea! I say go with it. >> >> Karsten Wade wrote: >> > We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of >> > fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) >> > >> > The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. >> > Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked >> > over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that >> > Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. >> > >> > Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is >> > it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? >> > >> > And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: >> > >> > 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on >> Fedora on >> > the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it >> > might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the >> > popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' >> > >> > The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a >> > special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more >> > popular spins. >> > >> > - Karsten >> > >> >> -- >> >> Benjamin Lewis >> Fedora Ambassador >> ben.lewis at benl.co.uk >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C >> >> "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" >> -- RFC 1118 >> >> >> -- >> Fedora-marketing-list mailing list >> Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >> >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGYLeRPg3HAC1vlg4RArSfAKC+jUXI3JlvxiBs3PSjUBUSSjFjGwCffV8l 66wYy/kb5nSgr6CPXgLL1is= =VWV2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Bart.De.Soete at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 2 07:01:07 2007 From: Bart.De.Soete at fedoraproject.org (Bart De Soete) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:01:07 +0200 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <644c0c0b0706020001g31e8a18m106c26d2591d18f9@mail.gmail.com> +1 2007/6/1, Karsten Wade : > We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of > fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) > > The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. > Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked > over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that > Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. > > Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is > it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? > > And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: > > 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on > the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it > might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the > popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' > > The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a > special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more > popular spins. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project > Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 > ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Bart De Soete, Fedora Ambassador ? Belgium From duffy at redhat.com Sat Jun 2 07:15:53 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 03:15:53 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: > > 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on > the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it > might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the > popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' > > The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a > special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more > popular spins. Here's one concept for that promo: http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo.png I got some suggestions for improvement like making the logo more like a banana label and putting the logo on one of those back blankets rather than directly on the pony... we can easily switch these out for better/funnier/more allegorical/etc objects. some bylines I thought of for this: - "what kind of fedora will *you* make?" - "what's your fedora?" - "make it yours" / "go ahead, make it yours" - "build the fedora of your dreams" (with some kind of house + blueprints artwork maybe) - "a perfect fit" / "tailored for you" / "os doesn't quite fit?" (weird idea: have three people wearing suse/ubuntu/debian suits/dresses that are rumply and baggy and not quite right, and then have a tailor with a 'revisor' nametag or something tailoring the fourth person's fedora outfit which fits much more nicely than the others) - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around him cheering him on) - "it's all about you" ~m From mspevack at redhat.com Sat Jun 2 07:42:17 2007 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 03:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jun 2007, Karsten Wade wrote: > We discussed the idea of doing rotating banners on the front of > fedoraproject.org, once we get over ourselves for the successful F7. ;) > > The idea is, once every $TIME_PERIOD, we rotate the front page banner. > Ideas are proposed and vetted on this list (f-marketing-l), then kicked > over to the Art team for production. They drop them into a queue that > Infrastructure sets up, all around the self-service idea. > > Before I go all Wiki on this idea and make a canonical page for it, is > it a good idea? Should we do it? Why not? Yes, a very very enthusiastic yes. We've already got Mythdora -- according to their homepage, they are built using pungi. Success stories of people using pungi/koji/revisor to spin their own fedora. http://g-ding.tv/ --Max -- Max Spevack + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From ben.lewis at benl.co.uk Sat Jun 2 08:25:44 2007 From: ben.lewis at benl.co.uk (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:25:44 +0100 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46612988.2090600@benl.co.uk> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: >> And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: >> >> 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on >> the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it >> might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the >> popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' >> >> The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a >> special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more >> popular spins. > > Here's one concept for that promo: > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo.png I like that banner! Very funny > > I got some suggestions for improvement like making the logo more like > a banana label and putting the logo on one of those back blankets > rather than directly on the pony... we can easily switch these out for > better/funnier/more allegorical/etc objects. How about a cream cake, would be funnier than a Shuttle, IMHO. > > some bylines I thought of for this: > > - "what kind of fedora will *you* make?" > - "what's your fedora?" Too much like hats. > - "make it yours" / "go ahead, make it yours" > - "build the fedora of your dreams" (with some kind of house + > blueprints artwork maybe) > - "a perfect fit" / "tailored for you" / "os doesn't quite fit?" > (weird idea: have three people wearing suse/ubuntu/debian > suits/dresses that are rumply and baggy and not quite right, and then > have a tailor with a 'revisor' nametag or something tailoring the > fourth person's fedora outfit which fits much more nicely than the > others) Again, too much like hats and I think we should avoid hat references > - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around > him cheering him on) > - "it's all about you" > > ~m > Otherwise, great! -- Benjamin Lewis Fedora Ambassador ben.lewis at benl.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" -- RFC 1118 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ben.lewis.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 889 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From duffy at redhat.com Sat Jun 2 09:23:25 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 05:23:25 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: >> And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: >> >> 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on >> the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it >> might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the >> popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' >> >> The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a >> special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more >> popular spins. > some bylines I thought of for this: [snip] > - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around him > cheering him on) here's this one: http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo_dj.png (uses [1] and [2] as source artwork) ~m [1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/w00kie/7739398/ (DJ Chloe by MacBidouille) [2] http://www.sxc.hu/photo/25680 (Dancefloor by Bjarte Kvinge Tvedt) From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 2 09:46:41 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:16:41 +0530 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > M?ir??n Duffy wrote: >> Karsten Wade wrote: >>> And my first proposed idea, from a Linux Watch quote of Max: >>> >>> 'Spevack concluded, "We'll advertise the most popular spins on Fedora on >>> the Fedora site. So, if someone created a very small distribution it >>> might be advertised as Damn Small Fedora Linux." This is a play on the >>> popular DSL (Damn Small Linux) distribution.' >>> >>> The first rotated banner promotes either i) that effort (points to a >>> special 'popular spins' page), or ii) directly promotes one or more >>> popular spins. > >> some bylines I thought of for this: > > [snip] > >> - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around >> him cheering him on) > > here's this one: > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo_dj.png This and the previous image looks pretty good but before we promote custom spins more we need to very clear documentation and that is somewhat scattered across places now. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2007-June/msg00183.html Rahul From duffy at redhat.com Sat Jun 2 10:40:21 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 06:40:21 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > This and the previous image looks pretty good but before we promote > custom spins more we need to very clear documentation and that is > somewhat scattered across places now. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2007-June/msg00183.html Well, of course! that's why it says click here to learn more :) I was envisioning them clicking on the banner to get a page with more information. ~m From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 2 10:50:19 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:20:19 +0530 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> This and the previous image looks pretty good but before we promote >> custom spins more we need to very clear documentation and that is >> somewhat scattered across places now. >> >> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2007-June/msg00183.html > > Well, of course! that's why it says click here to learn more :) I was > envisioning them clicking on the banner to get a page with more > information. Just pointing out that page doesn't exist yet and we need the documentation first. Is anyone interested in working on that? Rahul From jmbabich at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 11:11:28 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 14:11:28 +0300 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0706020411k155fbca8v5a7e300f8e502ffd@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Just pointing out that page doesn't exist yet and we need the > documentation first. Is anyone interested in working on that? > I already "wikified" the LiveCD How-To, so it seems logical I should turn that into a more formal document. I haven't worked with Pungi yet. My first attempts at Revisor were not successful. If someone gives me the technical support and fact-checking assistance, I can go ahead and write something up. I would appreciate if other members of the Fedora Team, especially the Docs team, could assist me in the process. John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Docs Project From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Sat Jun 2 11:16:27 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:16:27 +0100 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0706020411k155fbca8v5a7e300f8e502ffd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0706020411k155fbca8v5a7e300f8e502ffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3263b11b0706020416l7bb85535x5f7e3da4571cab0b@mail.gmail.com> On 02/06/07, John Babich wrote: > On 6/2/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > Just pointing out that page doesn't exist yet and we need the > > documentation first. Is anyone interested in working on that? > > > > I already "wikified" the LiveCD How-To, so it seems logical I should turn > that into a more formal document. > > I haven't worked with Pungi yet. My first attempts at Revisor were not > successful. > > If someone gives me the technical support and fact-checking assistance, > I can go ahead and write something up. I would appreciate if other > members of the Fedora Team, especially the Docs team, could assist > me in the process. Hey, I've been talking with the Revisor guys about doing documentation for it. Check this post on the docs-list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-June/msg00001.html We could move this discussion over to there? Jon From mspevack at redhat.com Sat Jun 2 11:58:28 2007 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0706020411k155fbca8v5a7e300f8e502ffd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> <9d2c731f0706020411k155fbca8v5a7e300f8e502ffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007, John Babich wrote: > On 6/2/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >> Just pointing out that page doesn't exist yet and we need the >> documentation first. Is anyone interested in working on that? >> > > I already "wikified" the LiveCD How-To, so it seems logical I should turn > that into a more formal document. > > I haven't worked with Pungi yet. My first attempts at Revisor were not > successful. > > If someone gives me the technical support and fact-checking assistance, > I can go ahead and write something up. I would appreciate if other > members of the Fedora Team, especially the Docs team, could assist > me in the process. I will help you. Revisor, and the livecd-tools/pungi basis on which Revisor is built, is my favorite part of Fedora 7. Start here for a general overview: http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/05/31/remixing-fedora-7/ From webpath at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 2 08:16:59 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:16:59 +0000 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4661277B.8090404@fedoraproject.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Just pointing out that page doesn't exist yet and we need the > documentation first. Is anyone interested in working on that? > > Rahul > We've started gathering the how-to info at http://Respins.org From tchung at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 2 18:32:42 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 11:32:42 -0700 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706021132j73f16a60ofe7c395828fdcaf2@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > here's this one: > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo_dj.png > > (uses [1] and [2] as source artwork) > > ~m > > [1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/w00kie/7739398/ (DJ Chloe by MacBidouille) > [2] http://www.sxc.hu/photo/25680 (Dancefloor by Bjarte Kvinge Tvedt) Love it! Excellent job M?ir??n! -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro Sat Jun 2 20:54:31 2007 From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:54:31 +0300 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4661D907.7060605@nobugconsulting.ro> On 06/02/2007 12:23 PM, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > >> - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around >> him cheering him on) > > here's this one: > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo_dj.png > I love this one From nihedmm at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 20:58:58 2007 From: nihedmm at gmail.com (nihed mbarek) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 22:58:58 +0200 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4661D907.7060605@nobugconsulting.ro> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <4661D907.7060605@nobugconsulting.ro> Message-ID: <5bddd8fd0706021358q1b014d1eha911ff3a91330d46@mail.gmail.com> GG M?ir??n I love it remix share party :) 2007/6/2, Manuel Wolfshant : > > On 06/02/2007 12:23 PM, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > > > >> - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around > >> him cheering him on) > > > > here's this one: > > > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo_dj.png > > > I love this one > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- M'BAREK Med Nihed, Fedora Ambassador, TUNISIA, Northern Africa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexmandl at mandic.com.br Sat Jun 2 21:07:35 2007 From: alexmandl at mandic.com.br (Alexandre Mandl) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:07:35 -0300 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4661D907.7060605@nobugconsulting.ro> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <4661D907.7060605@nobugconsulting.ro> Message-ID: <4661DC17.5080305@mandic.com.br> Hello Everybody, It's my first participation on this list. So, first of all, I would like to say "hello" from Brazil. I've just saw the banner of "remix" and it's really great! best regards, Alexandre Mandl alexmandl at mandic.com.br Manuel Wolfshant wrote: > On 06/02/2007 12:23 PM, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: >> >>> - "remix. share. get mad props." (dj with fedora logo, crowd around >>> him cheering him on) >> >> here's this one: >> >> http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo_dj.png >> > I love this one > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 4763 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Jun 3 02:46:49 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:46:49 +0800 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) Message-ID: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> The article comes from here. http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux newbies ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." From tchung at fedoraproject.org Sun Jun 3 05:47:02 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 22:47:02 -0700 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706022247u4834f9ccue5c5c5b0fd6cd9ee@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > The article comes from here. > > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 > > "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On > the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, > take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned > FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 > people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big > bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about > Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux newbies > ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." I'm not so sure if the following statement was necessary in conclusion of this Fedora review. It just seems the author is recommending other OS over Fedora. :( "However, since the distro I blew off my spare partition in order to install Fedora 7 was PCLinuxOS 2007, it's impossible not to compare the two. PCLinuxOS definitely comes out the winner. Configuring hardware on Fedora is more challenging than configuring hardware on PCLinuxOS, which does most of it for you. PCLinuxOS doesn't require the manual addition of third-party repositories in order to get proprietary software; most of it is installed out of the box. In short, PCLinuxOS is simply less time-consuming and less frustrating to install and configure than Fedora." Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Jun 3 05:52:34 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:52:34 +0800 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706022247u4834f9ccue5c5c5b0fd6cd9ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706022247u4834f9ccue5c5c5b0fd6cd9ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1180849954.3913.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 22:47 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/2/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > The article comes from here. > > > > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 > > > > "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On > > the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, > > take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned > > FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 > > people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big > > bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about > > Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux newbies > > ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." > > I'm not so sure if the following statement was necessary in conclusion > of this Fedora review. It just seems the author is recommending other > OS over Fedora. :( > > "However, since the distro I blew off my spare partition in order to > install Fedora 7 was PCLinuxOS 2007, it's impossible not to compare > the two. PCLinuxOS definitely comes out the winner. Configuring > hardware on Fedora is more challenging than configuring hardware on > PCLinuxOS, which does most of it for you. PCLinuxOS doesn't require > the manual addition of third-party repositories in order to get > proprietary software; most of it is installed out of the box. In > short, PCLinuxOS is simply less time-consuming and less frustrating to > install and configure than Fedora." It goes with the standard of Fedora isn't good because it doesn't install propietary formats from the get-go. They seem to not read or understand that Fedora does not come with propietary software. Cheers, Marc From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 3 05:57:47 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:57:47 -0700 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4661277B.8090404@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> <4661277B.8090404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1180850267.4459.133.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 08:16 +0000, Karlie Robinson wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Just pointing out that page doesn't exist yet and we need the > > documentation first. Is anyone interested in working on that? > > > > Rahul > > > > We've started gathering the how-to info at http://Respins.org Would you like to join in the effort upstream? Fedora Docs content and toolchain is specifically designed to be reusable however you need, so Respins.org do anything from mirror it to slice it up and rework it into custom docs. Aside from writers, we need technical review/editing (beta testing of the docs), ongoing maintenance help (update docs with new releases of the software and OS), and promotion. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 3 06:38:15 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 23:38:15 -0700 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1180852695.4459.137.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 10:46 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > The article comes from here. > > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 In the second Big Point Against Fedora is this (mis)statement: "Fedora doesn't even include support for read-only access to NTFS partitions." Uh, I thought we had that one resolved and did offer ro access to NTFS? Certainly put it into the release announcement and TalkingPoints. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Sun Jun 3 08:19:22 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 09:19:22 +0100 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180849954.3913.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706022247u4834f9ccue5c5c5b0fd6cd9ee@mail.gmail.com> <1180849954.3913.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3263b11b0706030119h5ceb7c9au7f003b69c3fb93f2@mail.gmail.com> On 03/06/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 22:47 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > > On 6/2/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > > The article comes from here. > > > > > > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 > > > > > > "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On > > > the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, > > > take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned > > > FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 > > > people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big > > > bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about > > > Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux newbies > > > ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." > > > > I'm not so sure if the following statement was necessary in conclusion > > of this Fedora review. It just seems the author is recommending other > > OS over Fedora. :( > > Is it possible we're not doing enough to make the reason for their not being proprietary software obvious enough? I think we've talked about this before...but obviously we're not or it would (or at least should) have been mentioned in that article! Jon > > "However, since the distro I blew off my spare partition in order to > > install Fedora 7 was PCLinuxOS 2007, it's impossible not to compare > > the two. PCLinuxOS definitely comes out the winner. Configuring > > hardware on Fedora is more challenging than configuring hardware on > > PCLinuxOS, which does most of it for you. PCLinuxOS doesn't require > > the manual addition of third-party repositories in order to get > > proprietary software; most of it is installed out of the box. In > > short, PCLinuxOS is simply less time-consuming and less frustrating to > > install and configure than Fedora." > > > It goes with the standard of Fedora isn't good because it doesn't > install propietary formats from the get-go. They seem to not read or > understand that Fedora does not come with propietary software. > > Cheers, > > Marc > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From tchung at fedoraproject.org Sun Jun 3 08:32:50 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 01:32:50 -0700 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > The article comes from here. > > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 > > "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On > the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, > take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned > FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 > people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big > bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about > Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux newbies > ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." BTW, it's over "93,000" members as of today in FedoraForum.org It can't be "7,000" members even if the article was written a month ago. Perhaps, the author meant to say "70,000" members instead. :) Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Sun Jun 3 08:34:29 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 09:34:29 +0100 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> On 03/06/07, Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/2/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > The article comes from here. > > > > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 > > > > "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On > > the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, > > take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned > > FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 > > people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big > > bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about > > Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux newbies > > ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." > > BTW, it's over "93,000" members as of today in FedoraForum.org > It can't be "7,000" members even if the article was written a month ago. > Perhaps, the author meant to say "70,000" members instead. :) > Regards, Maybe he meant "Online Now"? Although it's not very clear if he did! Jon From jmbabich at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 11:06:26 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:06:26 +0300 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> Just my two cents' worth ($0.02): There will always be people who will not like Fedora's position on leaving the encumbered bits out of the distribution. To quote from the article: "Much of this can arguably be laid to rest at the feet of Fedora's decision to stay completely within the bounds of open-source, non-patent-encumbered (at least in their opinion) software. (Keep in mind that Fedora isn't sticking to this decision for purely ideological reasons ? it has a business to run and doesn't want to get sued.) It remains to be seen how the struggle between the demand for ease-of-use/proprietary formats, on the one hand, and a strict emphasis on free-and-open-source software, on the other, will turn out." I find this is be a pretty fair, if somewhat cynical, view expressed in this article. Yes, I'm sure Red Hat, as the commercial sponsor of Fedora, doesn't want to get sued. At the same time, I see a genuine commitment within Red Hat and Fedora to promote unencumbered codecs and applications. Purity doesn't guarantee invincibility in regards to lawsuits. It always possible to get sued for alleged infringements, also known as "frivolous" lawsuits. Some individuals and companies sue, hoping to get an out-of-court, off-the-record, settlement, because it would be cheaper to settle than go to trial. The best thing is for any American concerned with the abuse of patent law, such as the whole category of "software patents", to lobby for abolishment of software patents altogether. In parallel, FOSS software and practices should be promoted as an alternative means of doing business and improving society in general. My view is this: "Better to a pragmatic purist, than a pure pragmatist". John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Jun 3 11:17:39 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:17:39 +0200 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1180869460.3820.3.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le dimanche 03 juin 2007 ? 14:06 +0300, John Babich a ?crit : > Just my two cents' worth ($0.02): > > There will always be people who will not like Fedora's position on leaving > the encumbered bits out of the distribution. However we could spin it a lot better. "Fedora does not propose proprietary software it can't provide user support for" or "Fedora protects its users from lawsuits" sounds a lots better than "Red Hat does not want to be sued" or "Fedora objects to IP-encumbered software on principle" (even if all are true) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Jun 3 14:19:39 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:19:39 -0400 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180869460.3820.3.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> <1180869460.3820.3.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1180880379.3506.11.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 13:17 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > However we could spin it a lot better. "Fedora does not propose > proprietary software it can't provide user support for" or "Fedora > protects its users from lawsuits" sounds a lots better than "Red Hat > does not want to be sued" or "Fedora objects to IP-encumbered software > on principle" (even if all are true) There are a thousand ways to phrase it. But some considerations ... 1. The term "proprietary"** is not always a "bad word," so it's good to avoid using it in a way that throws that context. **SIDE NOTE: As I've long argued from many different standpoints, the majority of Microsoft software is _not_ even proprietary, but Hostageware/Abandonware. Proprietary means the company actually gives it genuine value and ensures its perpetual support. 2. The phrase "IP-encumbered" caters far better to corporations and legal folk, and tells them "we've taken all your concerns -- patents and other indemnification aspects -- into account." 3. The concept of "principle" can be a very positive aspect, and sends the message that "with Fedora, you will be guaranteed X, Y and Z." Just my $0.02, from a hardcore, American Libertarian and Capitalist and long-time Red Hat product consultant at various organizations in North America. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Jun 3 14:34:21 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:34:21 -0400 Subject: The NTFS specifics -- WAS: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180852695.4459.137.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1180852695.4459.137.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1180881261.3506.21.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 23:38 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > In the second Big Point Against Fedora is this (mis)statement: > "Fedora doesn't even include support for read-only access to NTFS > partitions." > Uh, I thought we had that one resolved and did offer ro access to NTFS? > Certainly put it into the release announcement and TalkingPoints. I've noted the FUSE driver in Fedora Extras since version 6 (5?). The FUSE (user-space) driver is the 3rd generation, which has solved some (all?) legal issues, as well as the nasty SAM-SID** write issue which still plagues NT itself**. The NTFS kernel driver was the 1st-2nd generations, which has the nasty SAM-SID issue**. That's why it is recommended you only mount read-only with that driver. -- Bryan **NOTE: I'm a long-time NT admin (since the 3.1 beta) and 99% of MSCEs are utterly ignorant of. It's getting worse now that external drives are shipping with NTFS. NTFS should _never_ be written to by any system _except_ those that created it, because of the local Registry's SAM (System Accounts Manager) and its SID (Security ID) tie-ins. The work-arounds are numerous (from the NT domain model with a "network-wide" SAM-SID to the Dynamic Disks/LDM Disk label in NT5+ aka 2000+ that store select SAM-SID info in non-filesystem portions of the disk). For the most part "home users" who run NT 5.1/6.0 "Home" editions (Windows XP/Vista Home) avoid it because you can't apply ACE (access control entries) to the NTFS filesystem from the GUI (only via the CACLS command at the CMD.EXE CLI). But it's still a major issue with "Pro users" who run NT 5.1/6.0 "Pro" editions (and, even more so, earlier versions like NT 5.0/2000). Making matters worse, there is _no_ "read-only" NTFS driver in NT itself. For NT 5.0 (let alone earlier) versions, you can quickly _trash_ a NTFS. For NT 5.1+ (XP/2003+), if the system detects SIDs in the NTFS filesystem it doesn't have it its local registry (or the network-wide registry of a NT domain -- and that includes the same SAM model stored in Active Directory Services, ADS), it often doesn't even let you see the filesystem. Opening up Disk Manager in NT5.1+/XP+ will show the NTFS filesystem there, but won't let you assign a drive letter or anchor point (anchor = NT's "UNIX-like" mount point option). -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Jun 3 17:53:52 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:23:52 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46630030.7070302@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > On 03/06/07, Thomas Chung wrote: >> On 6/2/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> > The article comes from here. >> > >> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/16894 >> > >> > "Fedora 7, a.k.a. "Moonshine," released on May 31, is an odd duck. On >> > the one hand, it's hugely popular. If you need to be convinced of that, >> > take a look at the number of people viewing the officially-sanctioned >> > FedoraForum.org at any given time - as I write this, it's almost 7,000 >> > people. Visit your local Barnes & Noble Booksellers (that's a big >> > bookstore chain in the U.S.) and you'll see quite a few books about >> > Fedora on the shelves. (This, by itself, is a big plus for Linux >> newbies >> > ? Fedora may be the best-documented distro available)." >> >> BTW, it's over "93,000" members as of today in FedoraForum.org >> It can't be "7,000" members even if the article was written a month ago. >> Perhaps, the author meant to say "70,000" members instead. :) >> Regards, > > Maybe he meant "Online Now"? Although it's not very clear if he did! That is pretty clear to me. Definitely a reference to number of online users in the forum. Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Jun 3 16:04:59 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 16:04:59 +0000 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain><369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com><3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com><9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1342968361-1180886687-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-504196398-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The additional aspect that should be added is the fact that those who redistribute Fedora or otherwise bundle it also benefit from that added indemnification consideration, which is a very significant aspect. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "John Babich" Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:06:26 To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" Subject: Re: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) Just my two cents' worth ($0.02): There will always be people who will not like Fedora's position on leaving the encumbered bits out of the distribution. To quote from the article: "Much of this can arguably be laid to rest at the feet of Fedora's decision to stay completely within the bounds of open-source, non-patent-encumbered (at least in their opinion) software. (Keep in mind that Fedora isn't sticking to this decision for purely ideological reasons ? it has a business to run and doesn't want to get sued.) It remains to be seen how the struggle between the demand for ease-of-use/proprietary formats, on the one hand, and a strict emphasis on free-and-open-source software, on the other, will turn out." I find this is be a pretty fair, if somewhat cynical, view expressed in this article. Yes, I'm sure Red Hat, as the commercial sponsor of Fedora, doesn't want to get sued. At the same time, I see a genuine commitment within Red Hat and Fedora to promote unencumbered codecs and applications. Purity doesn't guarantee invincibility in regards to lawsuits. It always possible to get sued for alleged infringements, also known as "frivolous" lawsuits. Some individuals and companies sue, hoping to get an out-of-court, off-the-record, settlement, because it would be cheaper to settle than go to trial. The best thing is for any American concerned with the abuse of patent law, such as the whole category of "software patents", to lobby for abolishment of software patents altogether. In parallel, FOSS software and practices should be promoted as an alternative means of doing business and improving society in general. My view is this: "Better to a pragmatic purist, than a pure pragmatist". John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Jun 3 19:29:49 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:29:49 +0200 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180880379.3506.11.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com> <3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com> <9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com> <1180869460.3820.3.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1180880379.3506.11.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1180898989.4889.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le dimanche 03 juin 2007 ? 10:19 -0400, Bryan J. Smith a ?crit : > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 13:17 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > However we could spin it a lot better. "Fedora does not propose > > proprietary software it can't provide user support for" or "Fedora > > protects its users from lawsuits" sounds a lots better than "Red Hat > > does not want to be sued" or "Fedora objects to IP-encumbered software > > on principle" (even if all are true) > > There are a thousand ways to phrase it. But there are only a few that are right for a home user review -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Jun 3 20:22:19 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:22:19 +0200 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180850267.4459.133.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> <4661277B.8090404@fedoraproject.org> <1180850267.4459.133.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <466322FB.3010009@kanarip.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 08:16 +0000, Karlie Robinson wrote: >> We've started gathering the how-to info at http://Respins.org > > Would you like to join in the effort upstream? [...] +1, really Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Jun 3 20:24:54 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:24:54 +0200 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46632396.5090906@kanarip.com> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Here's one concept for that promo: > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/spin-promo.png > Ohw do I like this one! I had a good laugh when I first saw it and I'm liking it more and more each time I show it to anyone. How about a variant based on really pimping the distro? Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Jun 3 23:51:00 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 23:51:00 +0000 Subject: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) In-Reply-To: <1180898989.4889.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1180838809.22572.1.camel@localhost.localdomain><369bce3b0706030132s2b225a7dw89fb39c5fb0e5be5@mail.gmail.com><3263b11b0706030134l369c62b3wbc081d60cfb065ab@mail.gmail.com><9d2c731f0706030406x355bdbeet29d7d55f20863de4@mail.gmail.com><1180869460.3820.3.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org><1180880379.3506.11.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com><1180898989.4889.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1009001152-1180914649-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-159805808-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I disagree. In fact, home users are far more picky than business users. You can have 2 different statements that are mutually exclusive appeal to different home users whereas businesses tend to focus on the same. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Mailhot Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:29:49 To:For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: Fedora 7 "Moonshine": Freedom vs. Ease-of-Use (Part 1) Le dimanche 03 juin 2007 ? 10:19 -0400, Bryan J. Smith a ?crit : > On Sun, 2007-06-03 at 13:17 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > However we could spin it a lot better. "Fedora does not propose > > proprietary software it can't provide user support for" or "Fedora > > protects its users from lawsuits" sounds a lots better than "Red Hat > > does not want to be sued" or "Fedora objects to IP-encumbered software > > on principle" (even if all are true) > > There are a thousand ways to phrase it. But there are only a few that are right for a home user review -- Nicolas Mailhot -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From webpath at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 09:00:11 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:00:11 +0000 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <1180850267.4459.133.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46614B6B.6080007@fedoraproject.org> <4661277B.8090404@fedoraproject.org> <1180850267.4459.133.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4663D49B.3090102@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 08:16 +0000, Karlie Robinson wrote: >>We've started gathering the how-to info at http://Respins.org > > > Would you like to join in the effort upstream? Fedora Docs content and > toolchain is specifically designed to be reusable however you need, so > Respins.org do anything from mirror it to slice it up and rework it into > custom docs. > > Aside from writers, we need technical review/editing (beta testing of > the docs), ongoing maintenance help (update docs with new releases of > the software and OS), and promotion. > > - Karsten > I'll email you off list. This may be something we can do. ~Karlie From luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com Mon Jun 4 17:36:00 2007 From: luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:36:00 -0700 Subject: Distrowatch: First look at Fedora 7 by Chris Smart Message-ID: <46644D80.8090603@thefinalzone.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 A very positive review from Distrowatch submitted by Chris Smart, Kororaa developer From the initial boot of the installer the system exuded a sense of stability which filled me with confidence the more I used it. The installer is probably the best I have ever used and is very powerful while remaining simple to use. Top marks for that. Overall, the default GNOME install of Fedora is very good and (non-free software idiosyncrasies aside) as a Linux distribution in itself I thought it was excellent. If what you are after is a reliable, stable, easy-to-use yet powerful Linux distribution out of the box, then Fedora fits the bill nicely. http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070604#feature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZE18a10Jb0NOz+ERApvSAKCHlHyK7+at0m2Jm3/kd/pcngcAxgCdEDMB l1cJR6KpjPn0eyeNukDA0MA= =r2Y8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chasd at silveroaks.com Mon Jun 4 18:00:03 2007 From: chasd at silveroaks.com (chasd) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:00:03 -0500 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <20070604160008.3FB0773731@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20070604160008.3FB0773731@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Promoting respins does seem the best first target for banners. What other items might be "promoted" ? * Link to the known issues page for those seeking install/config help * Announcements for important updates such as Firefox 2.0.0.4 * Release of the Weekly News * Download number milestones ( 2 million served ! ) * FUDCons or other shows/ gatherings * Why Free Software ? Yes, these ideas may suck for various reasons, however they might jostle loose some actual, good ideas from someone else ;) Charles Dostale System Admin - Silver Oaks Communications http://www.silveroaks.com/ 824 17th Street, Moline IL 61265 From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 18:56:04 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:26:04 +0530 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> Message-ID: <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> This and the previous image looks pretty good but before we promote >> custom spins more we need to very clear documentation and that is >> somewhat scattered across places now. >> >> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2007-June/msg00183.html > > Well, of course! that's why it says click here to learn more :) I was > envisioning them clicking on the banner to get a page with more > information. Changing track a bit, I think we can do a promo without waiting for more documentation by linking to http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/06/01/video-fedora-7-highlights/ (and) http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/05/31/remixing-fedora-7/ More detailed information can follow later. Mo, do you want to do this? Rahul From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Mon Jun 4 19:49:47 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:49:47 +0100 Subject: Hats! Message-ID: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I have no idea if this is the best list to send this question to, but you'll point me elsewhere if not right!? I just watched the F7 promo...the baseball hat with the Fedora logo on looked awesome! Where/how can I get one?! Fedora clothing would be cool, with such an amazing logo :D I know creative commons etc use Goodstorm for products, although I can't purchase them from the UK :( Cheers, Jon From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:00:35 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:00:35 -0700 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706041300s7dd5f49bm8f455b91453e11d5@mail.gmail.com> On 6/4/07, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > Hi all, > > I have no idea if this is the best list to send this question to, but > you'll point me elsewhere if not right!? > > I just watched the F7 promo...the baseball hat with the Fedora logo on > looked awesome! Where/how can I get one?! Fedora clothing would be > cool, with such an amazing logo :D > > I know creative commons etc use Goodstorm for products, although I > can't purchase them from the UK :( > > Cheers, > > Jon Hi Jon, You mean "Fedora Cap" ? http://redhat.brandfuelstores.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=37 Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:02:04 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:32:04 +0530 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > Hi all, > > I have no idea if this is the best list to send this question to, but > you'll point me elsewhere if not right!? > > I just watched the F7 promo...the baseball hat with the Fedora logo on > looked awesome! Where/how can I get one?! Fedora clothing would be > cool, with such an amazing logo :D > > I know creative commons etc use Goodstorm for products, although I > can't purchase them from the UK :( http://redhat.brandfuelstores.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=37&zenid=5ecbe0e71f1985d1c94c7dd412b53067 Rahul From ben.lewis at benl.co.uk Mon Jun 4 19:54:41 2007 From: ben.lewis at benl.co.uk (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:54:41 +0100 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> I don't know if I am correct or not, but I have always been under the impression Red Hat don't want us to associate hats with Fedora (in spite of the name) Jonathan Roberts wrote: > Hi all, > > I have no idea if this is the best list to send this question to, but > you'll point me elsewhere if not right!? > > I just watched the F7 promo...the baseball hat with the Fedora logo on > looked awesome! Where/how can I get one?! Fedora clothing would be > cool, with such an amazing logo :D > > I know creative commons etc use Goodstorm for products, although I > can't purchase them from the UK :( > > Cheers, > > Jon > -- Benjamin Lewis Fedora Ambassador ben.lewis at benl.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" -- RFC 1118 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ben.lewis.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 889 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:05:54 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:35:54 +0530 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> Message-ID: <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> Benjamin Lewis wrote: > I don't know if I am correct or not, but I have always been under the > impression Red Hat don't want us to associate hats with Fedora (in spite > of the name) This is a hat with a logo stamped on it. Not a blue hat or anything. Rahul From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Mon Jun 4 20:07:46 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:07:46 +0100 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Thomas and Rahul! Shucks though...$50 when shipped to the UK - a little bit too much for me to spend on a hat :( I'll kick back and dream! Jon On 04/06/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I have no idea if this is the best list to send this question to, but > > you'll point me elsewhere if not right!? > > > > I just watched the F7 promo...the baseball hat with the Fedora logo on > > looked awesome! Where/how can I get one?! Fedora clothing would be > > cool, with such an amazing logo :D > > > > I know creative commons etc use Goodstorm for products, although I > > can't purchase them from the UK :( > > http://redhat.brandfuelstores.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=37&zenid=5ecbe0e71f1985d1c94c7dd412b53067 > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:09:23 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:39:23 +0530 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > Thanks Thomas and Rahul! > > Shucks though...$50 when shipped to the UK - a little bit too much for > me to spend on a hat :( > > I'll kick back and dream! > Yep. Shipping costs are bit insane. We have been looking for alternatives. Rahul From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:10:32 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:10:32 -0700 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/4/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Benjamin Lewis wrote: > > I don't know if I am correct or not, but I have always been under the > > impression Red Hat don't want us to associate hats with Fedora (in spite > > of the name) > > This is a hat with a logo stamped on it. Not a blue hat or anything. As an Ambassador, please refer to "Do not wear a big red hat" in our Fedora Ambassador Conduct page[1]. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Jun 4 20:07:23 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:07:23 +0100 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> O/H Rahul Sundaram ??????: > Jonathan Roberts wrote: >> Thanks Thomas and Rahul! >> >> Shucks though...$50 when shipped to the UK - a little bit too much for >> me to spend on a hat :( >> >> I'll kick back and dream! >> > > Yep. Shipping costs are bit insane. We have been looking for alternatives. Do we have an update on that? If not, maybe it's something the European team could (would want to) tackle? -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Mon Jun 4 20:14:53 2007 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:14:53 +0100 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> Message-ID: <3263b11b0706041314q7497e4d7m2e7115696cdc68d9@mail.gmail.com> > Do we have an update on that? > > If not, maybe it's something the European team could (would want to) tackle? > There are bound to be companies all around the world that do custom printing to order aren't there? goodstorm style... Jon From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:15:32 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:45:32 +0530 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> Message-ID: <466472E4.3060501@fedoraproject.org> Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Rahul Sundaram ??????: >> Jonathan Roberts wrote: >>> Thanks Thomas and Rahul! >>> >>> Shucks though...$50 when shipped to the UK - a little bit too much for >>> me to spend on a hat :( >>> >>> I'll kick back and dream! >>> >> Yep. Shipping costs are bit insane. We have been looking for alternatives. > > Do we have an update on that? > > If not, maybe it's something the European team could (would want to) tackle? I will post more details later if I do something more to say on these. Rahul From ben.lewis at benl.co.uk Mon Jun 4 20:13:24 2007 From: ben.lewis at benl.co.uk (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:13:24 +0100 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46647264.8010208@benl.co.uk> Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/4/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Benjamin Lewis wrote: >> > I don't know if I am correct or not, but I have always been under the >> > impression Red Hat don't want us to associate hats with Fedora (in >> spite >> > of the name) >> >> This is a hat with a logo stamped on it. Not a blue hat or anything. > > As an Ambassador, please refer to "Do not wear a big red hat" in our > Fedora Ambassador Conduct page[1]. > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct > > Regards, Thanks, (excuse the pun) for the heads up, lol. -- Benjamin Lewis Fedora Ambassador ben.lewis at benl.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" -- RFC 1118 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ben.lewis.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 889 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:17:34 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:17:34 -0700 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706041317t4653cc1dwe0157209d43f0cab@mail.gmail.com> On 6/4/07, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Do we have an update on that? > > If not, maybe it's something the European team could (would want to) tackle? > > -d > > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ Hi Dimitris, We do have an *unofficial* site where Fedora Ambassadors can order T-shrits and Caps for Fedora Events. I need to check with Max to clear up some issues before I can go public. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 20:17:34 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:17:34 -0700 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706041317t4653cc1dwe0157209d43f0cab@mail.gmail.com> On 6/4/07, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Do we have an update on that? > > If not, maybe it's something the European team could (would want to) tackle? > > -d > > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B > http://dimitris.glezos.com/ Hi Dimitris, We do have an *unofficial* site where Fedora Ambassadors can order T-shrits and Caps for Fedora Events. I need to check with Max to clear up some issues before I can go public. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From mmahut at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 4 21:27:54 2007 From: mmahut at fedoraproject.org (Marek Mahut) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:27:54 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706041317t4653cc1dwe0157209d43f0cab@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646FBC.8090207@fedoraproject.org> <3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b574a@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> <466470FB.9030201@glezos.com> <369bce3b0706041317t4653cc1dwe0157209d43f0cab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466483DA.9060500@fedoraproject.org> Hey all, Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/4/07, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> Do we have an update on that? >> >> If not, maybe it's something the European team could (would want to) >> tackle? >> >> -d > Hi Dimitris, > We do have an *unofficial* site where Fedora Ambassadors can order > T-shrits and Caps for Fedora Events. I need to check with Max to clear > up some issues before I can go public. > Regards, Indeed, it's a gear pack includes 10 Fedora pens, 10 Fedora decals, 10 Fedora caps, & 10 Fedora T-shirts (5 Large, 5 XL) for $75.00. -- Marek Mahut Tel.: +420-532-294-111 (ex. 826-2046) Fedora Ambassador GSM: +420-731-076-674 http://www.fedoraproject.org http://www.jamendo.com ____________________________________________________________________ From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 01:14:28 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:14:28 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Changing track a bit, I think we can do a promo without waiting for more > documentation by linking to > > http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/06/01/video-fedora-7-highlights/ > > (and) > > http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/05/31/remixing-fedora-7/ > > More detailed information can follow later. Mo, do you want to do this? I'm a little concerned that linking to something on Red Hat's website might upset some folks...? Am I worrying too much? ~m From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 5 01:17:46 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:47:46 +0530 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Changing track a bit, I think we can do a promo without waiting for >> more documentation by linking to >> >> http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/06/01/video-fedora-7-highlights/ >> >> (and) >> >> http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/05/31/remixing-fedora-7/ >> >> More detailed information can follow later. Mo, do you want to do this? > > I'm a little concerned that linking to something on Red Hat's website > might upset some folks...? Am I worrying too much? Yep. Next we know we will be worrying about Red Hat engineers writing code or maintaining packages in Fedora. If a article is useful it is useful regardless of whether the source is Red Hat or not. The community includes all of us. Rahul From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 01:24:54 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:24:54 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> I'm a little concerned that linking to something on Red Hat's website >> might upset some folks...? Am I worrying too much? > > Yep. Next we know we will be worrying about Red Hat engineers writing > code or maintaining packages in Fedora. If a article is useful it is > useful regardless of whether the source is Red Hat or not. The community > includes all of us. Okay I just wanted to make sure since I've seen folks upset about similar things in the past. I'm poking around in my checkout now, I'll send screenshots before I check anything in. ~m From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 5 01:28:58 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:58:58 +0530 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4664BC5A.5060105@fedoraproject.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> I'm a little concerned that linking to something on Red Hat's website >>> might upset some folks...? Am I worrying too much? >> >> Yep. Next we know we will be worrying about Red Hat engineers writing >> code or maintaining packages in Fedora. If a article is useful it is >> useful regardless of whether the source is Red Hat or not. The >> community includes all of us. > > Okay I just wanted to make sure since I've seen folks upset about > similar things in the past. > > I'm poking around in my checkout now, I'll send screenshots before I > check anything in. Screenshots of the entire page? That would be more useful. The banners look nice but I wanted to see how they would actually look when they rotate in the website. Rahul From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 01:30:20 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:30:20 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664BC5A.5060105@fedoraproject.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664BC5A.5060105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4664BCAC.2000508@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> I'm poking around in my checkout now, I'll send screenshots before I >> check anything in. > > Screenshots of the entire page? That would be more useful. Yes that is what I meant!!! :) ~m From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jun 5 04:33:04 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:33:04 -0500 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <"46 646FBC.8090207"@fedoraproject.org> <"3263b11b0706041307j530ea785v196cb7b9bb9b5 74a"@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4664E780.9020501@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > Yep. Shipping costs are bit insane. We have been looking for > alternatives. > > Rahul > I wonder how much would it be for shipping down to Mexico... I'll prolly investigate later, I'd be most interested in the "batch" gear pack to distribute them down here... By the way, and since this is the marketing list, what would be the terms and conditions to distribute these locally at a certain cost? Say like at a local "Linux shop"? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZOd/XM+XOp70dwoRAgAwAJ9iRkJ7UC1GHDkyNm+eGVnuqQ3QPQCeJwdu YkJDovGKNX4BB+Ajixt+UIo= =z557 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nushio at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 5 05:06:56 2007 From: nushio at fedoraproject.org (Juan Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:06:56 -0500 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <4664E780.9020501@prodigy.net.mx> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46647173.2030009@fedoraproject.org> <4664E780.9020501@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: On 6/4/07, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Rahul Sundaram escribi?: > > Yep. Shipping costs are bit insane. We have been looking for > > alternatives. > > > > Rahul > > > > I wonder how much would it be for shipping down to Mexico... I'll > prolly investigate later, I'd be most interested in the "batch" gear > pack to distribute them down here... By the way, and since this is the > marketing list, what would be the terms and conditions to distribute > these locally at a certain cost? Say like at a local "Linux shop"? > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFGZOd/XM+XOp70dwoRAgAwAJ9iRkJ7UC1GHDkyNm+eGVnuqQ3QPQCeJwdu > YkJDovGKNX4BB+Ajixt+UIo= > =z557 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > As an Ambassador for Fedora here in Mexico, I'd definitely be interested in buying 'batches' of stuff to redistribute. I checked at Red Hat, and their shipping costs avg around 59 dlls, so its out of my budget. -- Juan M. Rodriguez Moreno Freelance Software Developer & Designer Fedora Ambassador Key fingerprint = 6201 742D 1092 92BF FB1E 3310 4731 5C14 520E 0258 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From romal at gmx.de Tue Jun 5 05:12:48 2007 From: romal at gmx.de (Robert M. Albrecht) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 07:12:48 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4664F0D0.8090002@gmx.de> Hi, you could ask Gerold Kassube, he has a bunch of unsold Fedora caps from Linuxtag. Inner-european shipping is much cheaper. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/GeroldKassube cu romal Jonathan Roberts schrieb: > Hi all, > > I have no idea if this is the best list to send this question to, but > you'll point me elsewhere if not right!? > > I just watched the F7 promo...the baseball hat with the Fedora logo on > looked awesome! Where/how can I get one?! Fedora clothing would be > cool, with such an amazing logo :D > > I know creative commons etc use Goodstorm for products, although I > can't purchase them from the UK :( > > Cheers, > > Jon > From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 05:39:17 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:39:17 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > I'm poking around in my checkout now, I'll send screenshots before I > check anything in. Here's some mockups, I'm not really happy with any of them right now but I need to sleep :) - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-1.png (bottom of sidebar) - feels a little unbalanced but not too bad - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) - im afraid this is going to be too busy unless the banners are carefully designed to not stand out in comparison to the main banner. right now they are not :) thus they are too busy. - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-3.png (top of sidebar) - a little more balanced than the other but the banners don't line up ~m From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue Jun 5 05:39:49 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:39:49 +0300 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: References: <20070604160008.3FB0773731@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4664F725.7090707@nicubunu.ro> chasd wrote: > Promoting respins does seem the best first target for banners. > > What other items might be "promoted" ? > > * Link to the known issues page for those seeking install/config help > * Announcements for important updates such as Firefox 2.0.0.4 > * Release of the Weekly News > * Download number milestones ( 2 million served ! ) > * FUDCons or other shows/ gatherings > * Why Free Software ? I was thinking (but had not taken the time to work on it yet) about: * Fedora for the Desktop user * Fedora for the Linux gamer * Fedora for the graphic artist And maybe a banner (or a series of banners) with people faces - "Fedora is people" -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Tue Jun 5 06:07:28 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 14:07:28 +0800 (WST) Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <22530.139.230.245.21.1181023648.squirrel@www.mwiriadi.id.au> > M?ir??n Duffy wrote: >> I'm poking around in my checkout now, I'll send screenshots before I >> check anything in. > > Here's some mockups, I'm not really happy with any of them right now but > I need to sleep :) > > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-1.png (bottom of sidebar) > - feels a little unbalanced but not too bad > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) > - im afraid this is going to be too busy unless the banners are > carefully designed to not stand out in comparison to the main banner. > right now they are not :) thus they are too busy. > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-3.png (top of sidebar) > - a little more balanced than the other but the banners don't line up > > ~m > Hi M?ir??n, I think the banner on the top of the sidebar looks best. The top of the page seems to take from the title. The bottom of the sidebar won't get seen as much sadly. Although the top of the side bar I think will be seen and doesn't detract from the title. My reasoning is, is that its a brilliant design and I quite like it and I want it to get noticed but not detract from page names. Good Work, Marc Wiriadisastra From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 5 07:09:08 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 00:09:08 -0700 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> On 6/4/07, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) Wait a minute. How the logo for fedoranews.org got in there? :) As the owner of the logo, I do not wish to put the logo in fedoraproject.org please. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From obi at unixkiste.org Tue Jun 5 08:32:23 2007 From: obi at unixkiste.org (Stefan Held) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:32:23 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Am Montag, den 04.06.2007, 13:10 -0700 schrieb Thomas Chung: > As an Ambassador, please refer to "Do not wear a big red hat" in our > Fedora Ambassador Conduct page[1]. > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct I think this has to be discussed again. RedHat Employees can not wear theire Fedora's and have a Fedora Shirt on? How should we do this with Google Basecaps and Fedora Shirts? On LinuxTag the Ubuntu Guys showed that Canonical is behind them, Suse showed that Novell is behind them. But we are not allowed to show that RedHat is one of the major forces behind Fedora. Why is that? We really can be proud about the Money we get from them. We can be proud about the work they do, for us. We can be proud and should thank them for the Webspace and Maintance Work they do, for us. Why is this such a bad thing for anybody? Maybe its time to think about this issue again. I am pretty shure no one will become Hard Attacs if he does that. > Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes: obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time, FreeNode: foo_bar the second destroys the text. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fedora Ambassador: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StefanHeld --------------------------------------------------------------------------- perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,,$|}split//,ESEL.$/' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG-Keyprint = 75C0 F029 CA71 F061 6C07 0640 38F7 E5F9 4EA5 A385 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From bogo at spisanie.com Tue Jun 5 08:41:00 2007 From: bogo at spisanie.com (Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:41:00 +0300 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Message-ID: <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stefan Held wrote: > Am Montag, den 04.06.2007, 13:10 -0700 schrieb Thomas Chung: > >> As an Ambassador, please refer to "Do not wear a big red hat" in our >> Fedora Ambassador Conduct page[1]. >> >> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct > > I think this has to be discussed again. RedHat Employees can not wear > theire Fedora's and have a Fedora Shirt on? > > How should we do this with Google Basecaps and Fedora Shirts? > > > On LinuxTag the Ubuntu Guys showed that Canonical is behind them, Suse > showed that Novell is behind them. But we are not allowed to show that > RedHat is one of the major forces behind Fedora. > > Why is that? Because Fedora is community driven distro. Ubuntu and suse are NOT community driven Bogo > > We really can be proud about the Money we get from them. We can be proud > about the work they do, for us. We can be proud and should thank them > for the Webspace and Maintance Work they do, for us. > > Why is this such a bad thing for anybody? > > Maybe its time to think about this issue again. I am pretty shure no one > will become Hard Attacs if he does that. > >> Regards, > > Stefan > > - -- Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov Fedora Ambassador Sofia, Bulgaria +359 897 61 51 28 bogomil at fedoraproject.org bogo at spisanie.com jabber:bogo at jabber.minus273.org profile: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BogomilShopov - --- Knowledge belongs to all -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZSGcvnZHkQPM91ARAomdAKCALgMh1MguM5VEdDNUdMrLSHAlBwCeKF9i RJ/Xyv73Ntr3QogsiEvwViA= =nKFj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue Jun 5 08:47:24 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 10:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Message-ID: <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le Mar 5 juin 2007 10:32, Stefan Held a ?crit : > > Why is this such a bad thing for anybody? Red Hat Marketing and Legal wants no risk of confusion between RHEL and Fedora -- Nicolas Mailhot From obi at unixkiste.org Tue Jun 5 08:54:26 2007 From: obi at unixkiste.org (Stefan Held) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:54:26 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> Message-ID: <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 11:41 +0300 schrieb Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov: > Because Fedora is community driven distro. Ubuntu and suse are NOT > community driven LOL. Please. Stop doing that. > Bogo http://en.opensuse.org/Project_overview The openSUSE project is a community program sponsored by ... http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct This Code of Conduct covers your behaviour as a member of the Ubuntu Community Now please, lets get serious and stop such things. I have seen all the guys on LinuxTag, they are as much a community as we are. -- Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes: obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time, FreeNode: foo_bar the second destroys the text. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fedora Ambassador: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StefanHeld --------------------------------------------------------------------------- perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,,$|}split//,ESEL.$/' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG-Keyprint = 75C0 F029 CA71 F061 6C07 0640 38F7 E5F9 4EA5 A385 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From obi at unixkiste.org Tue Jun 5 08:55:51 2007 From: obi at unixkiste.org (Stefan Held) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 10:55:51 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1181033751.10913.42.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 10:47 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: > Le Mar 5 juin 2007 10:32, Stefan Held a ?crit : > Red Hat Marketing and Legal wants no risk of confusion between RHEL > and Fedora This is why i said we maybe have to discuss this again. Trust me, i have recent and respectfull sources who said they think like i do. -- Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes: obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time, FreeNode: foo_bar the second destroys the text. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fedora Ambassador: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StefanHeld --------------------------------------------------------------------------- perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,, $|}split//,ESEL.$/' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG-Keyprint = 75C0 F029 CA71 F061 6C07 0640 38F7 E5F9 4EA5 A385 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From bogo at spisanie.com Tue Jun 5 09:02:20 2007 From: bogo at spisanie.com (Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:02:20 +0300 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Message-ID: <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stefan Held wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 11:41 +0300 schrieb Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov: > >> Because Fedora is community driven distro. Ubuntu and suse are NOT >> community driven > > LOL. Action, my friend actions. Suse (not OpenSuse) ans Ubuntu depends a lot of theirs company sponsors, but NOT Fedora. This is community driven, I think. Please ask Ubuntu and/or SUSE developers for that and for all procedures to make anything. Those are NOT community driven distros. Bogo > > Please. Stop doing that. > >> Bogo > > http://en.opensuse.org/Project_overview > > > The openSUSE project is a community program sponsored by ... > > > http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct > > > This Code of Conduct covers your behaviour as a member of the Ubuntu > Community > > > Now please, lets get serious and stop such things. > > I have seen all the guys on LinuxTag, they are as much a community as we > are. > > - -- Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov Fedora Ambassador Sofia, Bulgaria +359 897 61 51 28 bogomil at fedoraproject.org bogo at spisanie.com jabber:bogo at jabber.minus273.org profile: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BogomilShopov - --- Knowledge belongs to all -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZSacvnZHkQPM91ARAhnSAJ9JMAQ5zFb7tU5IaTxt287feqxOLwCeIZ5k T3mXGVk1ykF2LjTUKQr2oA0= =96ha -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From obi at unixkiste.org Tue Jun 5 09:24:56 2007 From: obi at unixkiste.org (Stefan Held) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:24:56 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> Message-ID: <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 12:02 +0300 schrieb Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov: > Action, my friend actions. ? > Suse (not OpenSuse) ans Ubuntu depends a lot of theirs company sponsors, but NOT Fedora. Have you ever seen the amount of money RH spends to run Fedora? Would you like to take care of that? T-Shirts, Media, Infrastructure. What do you think would happen if RH would decide to remove the support for all that stuff? Would the community take care of all costs? So is not every community driven Project in a friendly way dependent on theire sponsors? Think about FTP Mirrors all over the world. > This is community driven, I think. No. Community driven means we work and decide together. There is no difference if a contributer works for google, dell, HP, Intel, redhat or any other Company as long as he is delivering content or code to the project i do not care if he weares a base cap with *logo, a red Hat, yellow socks or whatever. It doesnt even matter for me if he works for SuSe/Novell or Canonical if he respects free Software and contributes to any upstream project, he is part of the big community Open Source. > Please ask Ubuntu and/or SUSE developers for that and for all > procedures to make anything. Those are NOT community driven distros. You mean like Core and Extras before? :) From your point of view we are a community driven Distribution since F7? Do you know why? Because the contributers in this "Community" have earned the Respect and showed theire will to make something like Fedora Work. I am pretty sure that will happen elsewhere also and then the company will mark the Community Trustworthy to lead theire Projects. Nothing else has happend here. So please stop saying the other projects are not community driven because "blabla". Sometimes it is good to have a strong leadership in a Project to simply get things done. > Bogo -- Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes: obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time, FreeNode: foo_bar the second destroys the text. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fedora Ambassador: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/StefanHeld --------------------------------------------------------------------------- perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,,$|}split//,ESEL.$/' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- GPG-Keyprint = 75C0 F029 CA71 F061 6C07 0640 38F7 E5F9 4EA5 A385 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From crazymulgogi at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:25:39 2007 From: crazymulgogi at gmail.com (hymno) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:25:39 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> Message-ID: <1181035539.6539.5.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 12:02 +0300, Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Stefan Held wrote: > > Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 11:41 +0300 schrieb Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov: > > > >> Because Fedora is community driven distro. Ubuntu and suse are NOT > >> community driven > > > > LOL. > Action, my friend actions. Suse (not OpenSuse) ans Ubuntu depends a lot > of theirs company sponsors, but NOT Fedora. This is community driven, I > think. Please ask Ubuntu and/or SUSE developers for that and for all > procedures to make anything. Those are NOT community driven distros. > > Bogo > > Please show us how you think Fedora is going to thrive as it does without Red Hat paying people that are a big part of Fedora development. Novell and Canonical pay people that develop *open*Suse (!) and Ubuntu, respectively. What's the difference? There may well be differences in the details, and Red Hat has a different business model than for example Canonical, but let's not be immature. Since Fedora was created by Red Hat in the first place, let's not get into semantic discussions that end up being other-distro-bashing, which is, correct me if I'm wrong, not what people are looking for on this list. regards, Herman /earth/eu/nl From bogo at spisanie.com Tue Jun 5 09:31:55 2007 From: bogo at spisanie.com (Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:31:55 +0300 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Message-ID: <46652D8B.6000101@spisanie.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stefan Held wrote: Hi , > Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 12:02 +0300 schrieb Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov: > >> Action, my friend actions. > > ? > >> Suse (not OpenSuse) ans Ubuntu depends a lot of theirs company sponsors, but NOT Fedora. > > Have you ever seen the amount of money RH spends to run Fedora? Would > you like to take care of that? T-Shirts, Media, Infrastructure. > No, but I think Community can handle that. > What do you think would happen if RH would decide to remove the support > for all that stuff? Would the community take care of all costs? So is > not every community driven Project in a friendly way dependent on theire > sponsors? > > Think about FTP Mirrors all over the world. > What about them? Mirrors here are provided by local sponsors, like others in the World. >> This is community driven, I think. > > No. Community driven means we work and decide together. There is no > difference if a contributer works for google, dell, HP, Intel, redhat or > any other Company as long as he is delivering content or code to the > project i do not care if he weares a base cap with *logo, a red Hat, > yellow socks or whatever. Exacly. Fedora community is open and the way of working is open. Not like the others. Try to contribute for Ubuntu, for example. > > It doesnt even matter for me if he works for SuSe/Novell or Canonical if > he respects free Software and contributes to any upstream project, he is > part of the big community Open Source. If Caldera pays you to work for it, what you will choose? > >> Please ask Ubuntu and/or SUSE developers for that and for all >> procedures to make anything. Those are NOT community driven distros. > > You mean like Core and Extras before? :) > > From your point of view we are a community driven Distribution since F7? > > Do you know why? Because the contributers in this "Community" have > earned the Respect and showed theire will to make something like Fedora > Work. I am pretty sure that will happen elsewhere also and then the > company will mark the Community Trustworthy to lead theire Projects. > > Nothing else has happend here. So please stop saying the other projects > are not community driven because "blabla". > > Sometimes it is good to have a strong leadership in a Project to simply > get things done. Not neccesary. The way for taking decisions makes the project community project. > >> Bogo > - -- Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov Fedora Ambassador Sofia, Bulgaria +359 897 61 51 28 bogomil at fedoraproject.org bogo at spisanie.com jabber:bogo at jabber.minus273.org profile: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BogomilShopov - --- Knowledge belongs to all -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZS2KvnZHkQPM91ARAiWVAJsFGoS2LbO7XdCOCs17Nu+6FtIvBgCfb4jC vqqSv1wuRe0mOkm4gQ7GDTY= =j6Hc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bogo at spisanie.com Tue Jun 5 09:40:17 2007 From: bogo at spisanie.com (Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:40:17 +0300 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <46652D8B.6000101@spisanie.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <46652D8B.6000101@spisanie.com> Message-ID: <46652F81.3080308@spisanie.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 And 1 more thing, Cannonical is Ubuntu Novel is Suse RedHat is NOT Fedora Bogo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZS+BvnZHkQPM91ARAqrtAJ9KoT3k13F3FC3LI5spGg92Mn/CKgCfZBHo 0cQS9Na2ZvFtg2+Xa9VauBQ= =Ju32 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From crazymulgogi at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:51:47 2007 From: crazymulgogi at gmail.com (hymno) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:51:47 +0200 Subject: Hats Message-ID: <1181037107.6539.8.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 12:02 +0300, Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Stefan Held wrote: > > Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 11:41 +0300 schrieb Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov: > > > >> Because Fedora is community driven distro. Ubuntu and suse are NOT > >> community driven > > > > LOL. > Action, my friend actions. Suse (not OpenSuse) ans Ubuntu depends a lot > of theirs company sponsors, but NOT Fedora. This is community driven, I > think. Please ask Ubuntu and/or SUSE developers for that and for all > procedures to make anything. Those are NOT community driven distros. > > Bogo > > Please show us how you think Fedora is going to thrive as it does without Red Hat paying people that are a big part of Fedora development. Novell and Canonical pay people that develop *open*Suse (!) and Ubuntu, respectively. What's the difference? There may well be differences in the details, and Red Hat has a different business model than for example Canonical, but let's not be immature. Since Fedora was created by Red Hat in the first place, let's not get into semantic discussions that end up being other-distro-bashing, which is, correct me if I'm wrong, not what people are looking for on this list. regards, Herman /earth/eu/nl -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list PS (I tried to send this earlier but somehow it was returned, sorry if it is not in the right place of the thread) From crazymulgogi at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:58:35 2007 From: crazymulgogi at gmail.com (hymno) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:58:35 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <46652F81.3080308@spisanie.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <46652D8B.6000101@spisanie.com> <46652F81.3080308@spisanie.com> Message-ID: <1181037515.6539.15.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 12:40 +0300, Bogomil "Bogo" Shopov wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > And 1 more thing, > Cannonical is Ubuntu > Novel is Suse > RedHat is NOT Fedora > > > Bogo I was wondering if you could back up slogans like that with something substantial. Without Suse, there is still Novell (leaving the stock value aside for a moment). Without Ubuntu, there is still Canonical. Canonical wants to make money by providing services on Linux/FLOSS products, preferably on Ubuntu since they have the know-how there. However, noone could stop them from supporting, say, CentOS, if that's what the world would be running all of a sudden. Bogo, it's very much appreciated that you are a staunch supporter of Fedora's, but how about seeing things in perspective and/or backing up your claims with something more than soundbites and irrelevant asides? best regards, Herman From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Jun 5 10:23:56 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:23:56 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181037515.6539.15.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <46652D8B.6000101@spisanie.com> <46652F81.3080308@spisanie.com> <1181037515.6539.15.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> Message-ID: <466539BC.6000402@kanarip.com> Can this probably endless discussion please stop now or be taken offline? Thank you, Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From gerold at lugd.org Tue Jun 5 10:28:08 2007 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:28:08 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466539BC.6000402@kanarip.com> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665219C.5010705@spisanie.com> <1181033666.10913.40.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <4665269C.6080900@spisanie.com> <1181035496.22457.19.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <46652D8B.6000101@spisanie.com> <46652F81.3080308@spisanie.com> <1181037515.6539.15.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> <466539BC.6000402@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1181039288.3781.2.camel@Amilo-GK.homenet.local> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 12:23 +0200 schrieb Jeroen van Meeuwen: > Can this probably endless discussion please stop now or be taken offline? > ^^ well spoken my dutch friend! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 12:58:24 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=ED=ADn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:58:24 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46655DF0.9040604@redhat.com> Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/4/07, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > >> - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) > > Wait a minute. How the logo for fedoranews.org got in there? :) > As the owner of the logo, I do not wish to put the logo in > fedoraproject.org please. > Regards, Sorry about that Thomas, it was just meant as a place-holder. I wasn't suggesting it be included on the site. These are just mockups. ~m From chasd at silveroaks.com Tue Jun 5 14:01:30 2007 From: chasd at silveroaks.com (chasd) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 09:01:30 -0500 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <20070605085524.AA118735E6@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20070605085524.AA118735E6@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: > Here's some mockups, I'm not really happy with any of them right > now but > I need to sleep :) Yes, seeing the banners in context makes a difference. My comments below are meant to be constructive, excuse me if they appear harsh. > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-1.png (bottom of sidebar) > - feels a little unbalanced but not too bad I actually like this layout the best of the three. I think the reason it seems unbalanced is because of the large white area to the right of the logo and above the title graphic ( I won't call it a banner to avoid confusion ). All layouts need "breathing space" however that top area is prime visual real estate. I think adding a tag line to that area would benefit the layout ( of all the pages, even if no banner is used ). > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) > - im afraid this is going to be too busy unless the banners are > carefully designed to not stand out in comparison to the main banner. I think the banner is too close to the title graphic, they compete visually. If the separation line between the top part of the page with the logo and the banners could be a little stronger, that might help. I feel the first mock up to be a stronger possibility. > right now they are not :) thus they are too busy. > - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-3.png (top of sidebar) > - a little more balanced than the other but the banners don't > line up Again, I think the banner and the title graphic compete too much, and the white space between them seems uncomfortable. This also makes the navigation less important ( farther down the page ). I took the liberty of moving the headline above the title graphic to demonstrate what adding _something_ to the blank area at the top could do to balance the layout for mock up number one. I placed it on the website of the company I work for - In that mock up, I would like to see the "What's new in Fedora . . . " link to be bigger and maybe have the type be heavier in weight, but for the purposes of this demonstration I thought this was sufficient. I also am not enamored with that specific tag line for the top right area, I simply used something that already existed in the layout and threw it up there. I also think the color of that tag line ( grey ) is not the best solution, or even the size of the type. The baseline of the tag line is aligned with the baseline of "infinity | freedom | voice" however it seems a bit low. When I placed it higher, it seemed too "floaty" for me. One other possibility is to fade the bottom of the title graphic to white. Since the separation between the logo and the rest of the page is a subtle fade, adding this touch to the title graphic may add some consistency, This would also differentiate the banner from the title graphic. Apologies if my comments are out of line, or if I have violated some rule established for the design of the web site. Charles Dostale From clint at utos.org Tue Jun 5 14:32:09 2007 From: clint at utos.org (Clint Savage) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:32:09 -0600 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <46655DF0.9040604@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> <46655DF0.9040604@redhat.com> Message-ID: <466573E9.7050705@utos.org> M?ir??n Duffy wrote: http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) I like this one the best. Remove the FedoraNews logo (per Thomas) and you've got a great mockup Cheers, -- Clint Savage Fedora Ambassador Utah Open Source Conference September 6-8, 2007 http://www.utosc.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 15:45:14 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:45:14 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4665850A.6000605@redhat.com> Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/4/07, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > >> - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) > > Wait a minute. How the logo for fedoranews.org got in there? :) > As the owner of the logo, I do not wish to put the logo in > fedoraproject.org please. Hi Thomas, I just removed it from the mockup, sorry again! (see http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png) ~m From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 15:45:53 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:45:53 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <466573E9.7050705@utos.org> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46611929.1080002@redhat.com> <4661370D.7050000@redhat.com> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> <46655DF0.9040604@redhat.com> <466573E9.7050705@utos.org> Message-ID: <46658531.9090104@redhat.com> Clint Savage wrote: > M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) > > I like this one the best. Remove the FedoraNews logo (per Thomas) and > you've got a great mockup reload: http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png I just think the spin promo is too dark. If we can set a policy that the banners up top are mostly light-colored, it could work and we could make better usage of that space. ~m From duffy at redhat.com Tue Jun 5 16:01:09 2007 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:01:09 -0400 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: References: <20070605085524.AA118735E6@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <466588C5.9040907@redhat.com> chasd wrote: > All layouts need "breathing space" however that top area is prime visual > real estate. I think adding a tag line to that area would benefit the > layout ( of all the pages, even if no banner is used ). What do you think about having some promos/banners/etc that have very strict visual style guidelines (eg must have a particular light-colored background and a particular (let's say light grey) foreground in this area? See the updated new-mock-2 (and squint and pretend the dj promo is much much lighter :) ): http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png > >> - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) >> - im afraid this is going to be too busy unless the banners are >> carefully designed to not stand out in comparison to the main banner. +1 > I think the banner is too close to the title graphic, they compete > visually. > If the separation line between the top part of the page with the logo > and the banners could be a little stronger, that might help. I feel the > first mock up to be a stronger possibility. +1 I agree. > I took the liberty of moving the headline above the title graphic to > demonstrate what adding _something_ to the blank area at the top could > do to balance the layout for mock up number one. I placed it on the > website of the company I work for - > Very nice, I like this! Much better balanced. > Apologies if my comments are out of line, or if I have violated some > rule established for the design of the web site. +1 this is *great* feedback and I think you were able to verbalize what was wrong with each mock really well. I was uncomfortable with each one and not quite how to explain why; your explanations are great. ~m From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue Jun 5 17:04:56 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:04:56 -0500 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <"4 6 647173.2030009"@fedoraproject.org> <4664E780.9020501@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <466597B8.3040307@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Juan Rodriguez escribi?: > As an Ambassador for Fedora here in Mexico, I'd definitely be > interested in buying 'batches' of stuff to redistribute. I checked > at Red Hat, and their shipping costs avg around 59 dlls, so its out > of my budget. > -- Juan M. Rodriguez Moreno Freelance Software Developer & Designer > Fedora Ambassador Key fingerprint = 6201 742D 1092 92BF FB1E 3310 > 4731 5C14 520E 0258 Ouch, out of mine (for the time being, anyway) too... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZZe4XM+XOp70dwoRAsEaAJ9r74fPfglTAzR3C481v0sjQuqxsACeND8U q0bx+/4T/jifOSDtb95Ag5g= =CKTK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From webpath at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 5 13:15:31 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:15:31 +0000 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466597B8.3040307@prodigy.net.mx> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <"4 6 647173.2030009"@fedoraproject.org> <4664E780.9020501@prodigy.net.mx> <466597B8.3040307@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <466561F3.9030804@fedoraproject.org> have you guys ever considered something like transferes? This company sells the same type of product that places like Cafe Press use. http://www.dharmatrading.com/transfers/ They even have the blank shirts and such at http://www.dharmatrading.com/clothing/ From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 5 19:25:51 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 12:25:51 -0700 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <4665850A.6000605@redhat.com> References: <1180725646.4459.64.camel@erato.phig.org> <46613C81.9090804@fedoraproject.org> <46614915.7040008@redhat.com> <46646044.4030502@fedoraproject.org> <4664B8F4.4000100@redhat.com> <4664B9BA.1080207@fedoraproject.org> <4664BB66.9070206@redhat.com> <4664F705.6030907@redhat.com> <369bce3b0706050009s644a2d45y3244df1ea53ff37e@mail.gmail.com> <4665850A.6000605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706051225t1957ae82hb352cd805b65661d@mail.gmail.com> On 6/5/07, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Thomas Chung wrote: > > On 6/4/07, M?ir??n Duffy wrote: > > > >> - http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png (along top of page) > > > > Wait a minute. How the logo for fedoranews.org got in there? :) > > As the owner of the logo, I do not wish to put the logo in > > fedoraproject.org please. > > Hi Thomas, I just removed it from the mockup, sorry again! No problem. Thank you. :) -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From chasd at silveroaks.com Wed Jun 6 17:33:41 2007 From: chasd at silveroaks.com (chasd) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:33:41 -0500 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <20070606160008.72C9573BAC@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20070606160008.72C9573BAC@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <03C74D13-4334-4732-8373-20EEB6CE481D@silveroaks.com> > What do you think about having some promos/banners/etc that have very > strict visual style guidelines I think having some kind of guide is a good idea. Too strict of a guide could make for promo graphics to look all the same. That would be similar to seeing the same commercial on the telly over and over again. Attention and impact are reduced. I think each banner should use a similar treatment to images, a suggested color palette, maybe even have each banner require a certain effect so that there is a consistency across all of the graphics. However there does need to be some individuality between all the promo graphics as well. There is a need to draw attention to the promos the graphics are stumping for. Unlike advertising banners where they want to steal attention away from the page content, on the Fedora site the banners need to be complementary to the page content, and not more important than the page content. > (eg must have a particular light-colored > background and a particular (let's say light grey) foreground in this > area? Maybe the ability to pick from one of ( I'll pull a number out from under my hat ) three backgrounds. Too many colors and you have a circus. To me, the grey seems too bland. A light blue might be better ? > See the updated new-mock-2 (and squint and pretend the dj promo is > much much lighter :) ): > > http://linuxgrrl.com/misc/new-mock-2.png I like the idea of a column-type structure. That way you can have 5 one-column promos, fill all five slots with one important promo, or mix and match. The changing sizes could help to keep repeat visitors ( or hits on subsequent pages by the same visitor ) visually interested. As an aside, I think each Fedora release should have a branding color. There are the colors that are used in the logo, which is the basis of the main Fedora brand and the whole website design. One of the things that makes the banner you did appealing is that it sneaks in the teal-aqua-blue/green color from the background title graphic. It creates a relationship on the page. If we were to assign that teal- aqua-blue/green color as the branding color for F7, that would help keep all the banner graphics ( or other F7 stuff ) hanging together and support F7 as a "sub-brand". I guess that goes back to one of my earlier suggestions about a color palette, or maybe it is the background color for the promos instead of grey. For F8, a different "secondary" color could be used to signify a change, and to group all F8 promo graphics together as a unit. Perhaps it is a color to the red side of blue instead of the green side. F9 could move to a burnt orange, F10 a yellow-green ,etc. > I think you were able to verbalize what > was wrong with each mock really well. I was uncomfortable with each > one > and not quite how to explain why; I used to be a designer before I was kicked downstairs to work on computer stuff instead ;) Again, I hope my comments have helped and not hindered the birth process of these banners. Charles Dostale From chasd at silveroaks.com Wed Jun 6 20:05:51 2007 From: chasd at silveroaks.com (chasd) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 15:05:51 -0500 Subject: rotating banners, first idea In-Reply-To: <20070606160008.72C9573BAC@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20070606160008.72C9573BAC@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1F0D27EA-4A0D-4906-9CFD-B6181DC59634@silveroaks.com> One other comment that I forgot until I ate some lunch - I think the vertical height of the banner needs to be a bit less ( or the vertical height of the title graphics needs to be more). The two vertical dimensions are a bit too much the same to my eye. By increasing the vertical dimension difference, it would increase the distinction of the messages imparted by the two graphics. You might want to invoke the old Greek Golden Section rule which would make the banner 84 pixels tall instead of 89. I again took the liberty of editing your mock up - I put yours in one Firefox tab and mine in the other and then clicked back and forth between the tabs to see the difference. Maybe too subtle of a change to be worth while. Thanks again for listening, Charles Dostale From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 6 23:23:39 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 04:53:39 +0530 Subject: Review: Fedora 7 (linux.com) Message-ID: <466741FB.30701@fedoraproject.org> Hi "Fedora 7 was released last week, a little bit behind schedule, with a spate of new features, updates, and live CD installable "spins" of Fedora in KDE and GNOME flavors. I found a lot of good in this release, but a bug in the FireWire stack that attacked my external backup drive made this release just a little shy of perfect." http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/1327234 Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 6 23:30:46 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:00:46 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7.0: moving to outpace Sun Message-ID: <466743A6.2080204@fedoraproject.org> Hi At first glance it seems to be a bit of a odd outlook to consider Fedora as a competition to Sun but there comparisons are really directed between opensolaris where the current project requires Sun employees to commit anything into the distribution vs the direction of Fedora in merging core and extras. A related blog is http://www.gnome.org/~gman/blog/06062007 Some interesting quotes from http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12616/1090/ "With its release of Fedora 7.0 last week, Red Hat has signalled that it is acutely aware of the threat that Sun could pose to its market share in the years ahead." "...Red Hat has, thus far, not been half as bureaucratic in this area but with the release of Fedora 7.0, the company has gone the extra step" "..Another change in Red Hat's approach has been in its attitude to the KDE project" Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 6 23:34:18 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:04:18 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7 Advances on Rivals Message-ID: <4667447A.4060707@fedoraproject.org> Hi, This review has focused on virt-manager, revisor and package management improvements http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2142494,00.asp "The Linux distribution impresses with a variety of customization options." "In addition to the structural changes that the Fedora project has made to its software repository framework, the team has noticeably sped up the distribution's Red Hat Package Manager/Yum package management backend. Also, as we mentioned earlier, Fedora's graphical tool for creating and managing virtual machines is much improved as well. For one thing, the tool now lists idle VMs alongside running VMs, which is something that only the system's command-line tool was capable of in previous releases." Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 6 23:48:44 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:18:44 +0530 Subject: Fedora Struggles to Come into Its Own Message-ID: <466747DC.2020207@fedoraproject.org> Hi This article is based on a interview with Max Spevack. One interesting trend is that this article and to a mixed extend the earlier distrowatch review posted talks about improvements while also painting a picture of struggle in growth. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3680951 "Red Hat, Spevack suggests, has shifted from being "Fedora's sponsor" to being "Fedora's biggest customer," and Fedora from being a farm-team to a community in its own right." " One of these benefits is Revisor, an initiative of the new Fedora Unity sub-project developed independently of the official processes. Taking advantage of the new openness, Revisor is a wizard that guides users step-by-step through the building of "re-spins" or customized variations of Fedora." "For the larger free software community, another benefit of Fedora's new openness is Smolt, an opt-in hardware profiler that allows the project to collect data about the equipment on which Fedora installs. Even before the release of Fedora 7, Smolt has been ported to the openSUSE distribution. Spevack anticipates the creation of a neutral website where information gathered by Smolt is available for all distributions that carry it." Rahul Ps: I couldn't find any information on smolt integration with OpenSUSE. Does anyone have details? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 6 23:53:06 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:23:06 +0530 Subject: Planning For Fedora 8 Message-ID: <466748E2.4040502@fedoraproject.org> Hi "Fedora 7 isn't even a day old but there's already preparations beginning for Fedora 8. The release of Fedora 8 is very tentatively planned for October 31, 2008 while the first test release is planned for July 1" http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NTgxMA Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Thu Jun 7 00:15:24 2007 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:15:24 +0800 Subject: Fedora Struggles to Come into Its Own In-Reply-To: <466747DC.2020207@fedoraproject.org> References: <466747DC.2020207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1181175324.31038.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 05:18 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > This article is based on a interview with Max Spevack. One interesting > trend is that this article and to a mixed extend the earlier distrowatch > review posted talks about improvements while also painting a picture of > struggle in growth. > > http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3680951 > > "Red Hat, Spevack suggests, has shifted from being "Fedora's sponsor" to > being "Fedora's biggest customer," and Fedora from being a farm-team to > a community in its own right." > > " One of these benefits is Revisor, an initiative of the new Fedora > Unity sub-project developed independently of the official processes. > Taking advantage of the new openness, Revisor is a wizard that guides > users step-by-step through the building of "re-spins" or customized > variations of Fedora." > > "For the larger free software community, another benefit of Fedora's new > openness is Smolt, an opt-in hardware profiler that allows the project > to collect data about the equipment on which Fedora installs. Even > before the release of Fedora 7, Smolt has been ported to the openSUSE > distribution. Spevack anticipates the creation of a neutral website > where information gathered by Smolt is available for all distributions > that carry it." > > Rahul > > Ps: I couldn't find any information on smolt integration with OpenSUSE. > Does anyone have details? > Last I heard Max spoke to them at LinuxTag I read from his blog??? Confirm please. That was as far as what I've read about it. Cheers, Marc From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 7 00:25:20 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:55:20 +0530 Subject: Review: Fedora 7 Message-ID: <46675070.5090309@fedoraproject.org> Hi "If these comments seem to nitpick or damn with faint praise, they also reflect the growing maturity of major distributions like Fedora. For the most part, Fedora 7 is a polished and stable distribution that almost anyone can use -- but it is by no means a revolutionary departure from earlier releases. The trouble is that, these days, there is simply less to say about most distributions -- and that, in itself, gives the lie to any claims that GNU/Linux is not ready for the desktop." http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3680246_1 Rahul From cnegus at rucls.net Thu Jun 7 02:18:41 2007 From: cnegus at rucls.net (Chris Negus) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:18:41 -0500 Subject: Planning For Fedora 8 In-Reply-To: <466748E2.4040502@fedoraproject.org> References: <466748E2.4040502@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1181182721.3745.17.camel@einstein> On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 05:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > "Fedora 7 isn't even a day old but there's already preparations > beginning for Fedora 8. The release of Fedora 8 is very tentatively > planned for October 31, 2008 while the first test release is planned for > July 1" > > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NTgxMA Any reason why it's only five months instead of the usual 6+ months. I know shorter release cycles have been threatened before, but I don't remember it actually happening. -- Chris From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 7 02:13:37 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Planning For Fedora 8 In-Reply-To: <1181182721.3745.17.camel@einstein> References: <466748E2.4040502@fedoraproject.org> <1181182721.3745.17.camel@einstein> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Chris Negus wrote: > Any reason why it's only five months instead of the usual 6+ months. I > know shorter release cycles have been threatened before, but I don't > remember it actually happening. Because we're hoping to stabilize the 6 month cycle, and the sensible time for stabilizing a fall release is the end of October. Any sooner and we won't have enough time to get out a decent release. Any later and we'll be vulnerable to the dreaded "winter holiday" if we slip. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 7 03:04:15 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:34:15 +0530 Subject: Planning For Fedora 8 In-Reply-To: <1181182721.3745.17.camel@einstein> References: <466748E2.4040502@fedoraproject.org> <1181182721.3745.17.camel@einstein> Message-ID: <466775AF.6050802@fedoraproject.org> Chris Negus wrote: > On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 05:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> "Fedora 7 isn't even a day old but there's already preparations >> beginning for Fedora 8. The release of Fedora 8 is very tentatively >> planned for October 31, 2008 while the first test release is planned for >> July 1" >> >> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NTgxMA > > Any reason why it's only five months instead of the usual 6+ months. I > know shorter release cycles have been threatened before, but I don't > remember it actually happening. I have added a rationale in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/Schedule Rahul From raveeshnagpal at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 05:35:13 2007 From: raveeshnagpal at gmail.com (Raveesh) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:05:13 +0530 Subject: Review: Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46675070.5090309@fedoraproject.org> References: <46675070.5090309@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <114157d40706062235v55bda8a6t9be6561f1f902ed6@mail.gmail.com> You are somewhat correct, but what i have noticed is that there is a great difference between FC6 and fedora 7. so as far as GNU/Linux distributions are concerned, we are moving towards a new maturity. Now our goal should not be to make each release revolutionary but how to make each one of them according to our community standards and how to improve our selves that would in the true means would be revolutionary! On 6/7/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > "If these comments seem to nitpick or damn with faint praise, they also > reflect the growing maturity of major distributions like Fedora. For the > most part, Fedora 7 is a polished and stable distribution that almost > anyone can use -- but it is by no means a revolutionary departure from > earlier releases. The trouble is that, these days, there is simply less > to say about most distributions -- and that, in itself, gives the lie to > any claims that GNU/Linux is not ready for the desktop." > > http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3680246_1 > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raveeshnagpal at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 05:40:04 2007 From: raveeshnagpal at gmail.com (Raveesh) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 11:10:04 +0530 Subject: Fedora Struggles to Come into Its Own In-Reply-To: <1181175324.31038.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <466747DC.2020207@fedoraproject.org> <1181175324.31038.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <114157d40706062240g630a5179o2833896193ed9013@mail.gmail.com> I think that this is the revolution that we were waiting for? On 6/7/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 05:18 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > This article is based on a interview with Max Spevack. One interesting > > trend is that this article and to a mixed extend the earlier distrowatch > > review posted talks about improvements while also painting a picture of > > struggle in growth. > > > > http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3680951 > > > > "Red Hat, Spevack suggests, has shifted from being "Fedora's sponsor" to > > being "Fedora's biggest customer," and Fedora from being a farm-team to > > a community in its own right." > > > > " One of these benefits is Revisor, an initiative of the new Fedora > > Unity sub-project developed independently of the official processes. > > Taking advantage of the new openness, Revisor is a wizard that guides > > users step-by-step through the building of "re-spins" or customized > > variations of Fedora." > > > > "For the larger free software community, another benefit of Fedora's new > > openness is Smolt, an opt-in hardware profiler that allows the project > > to collect data about the equipment on which Fedora installs. Even > > before the release of Fedora 7, Smolt has been ported to the openSUSE > > distribution. Spevack anticipates the creation of a neutral website > > where information gathered by Smolt is available for all distributions > > that carry it." > > > > Rahul > > > > Ps: I couldn't find any information on smolt integration with OpenSUSE. > > Does anyone have details? > > > > Last I heard Max spoke to them at LinuxTag I read from his blog??? > Confirm please. That was as far as what I've read about it. > > Cheers, > > Marc > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 19:26:29 2007 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:26:29 -0400 Subject: Revisor Message-ID: <1181330789.11619.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> http://enterprise.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/2017215 Nice to see this is getting even more traction and notice. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jun 8 19:41:26 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 15:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DIGG THIS ARTICLE. In-Reply-To: <1181330789.11619.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1181330789.11619.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Very diggable. --g On Fri, 8 Jun 2007, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://enterprise.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/2017215 > > Nice to see this is getting even more traction and notice. > > -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From lisahoover at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 20:05:28 2007 From: lisahoover at gmail.com (Lisa Hoover) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:05:28 -0400 Subject: DIGG THIS ARTICLE. In-Reply-To: References: <1181330789.11619.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <282D194D-0AB8-4375-8BF8-DF5906A3A551@gmail.com> I already Dugg this earlier today :) http://digg.com/linux_unix/ How_to_create_custom_Fedora_install_images_with_Revisor Lisa H On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > Very diggable. > > --g > > On Fri, 8 Jun 2007, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> http://enterprise.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/2017215 >> >> Nice to see this is getting even more traction and notice. >> >> > > -- > Greg DeKoenigsberg > Community Development Manager > Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 > "To whomsoever much hath been given... > ...from him much shall be asked" > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Jun 8 23:17:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 04:47:57 +0530 Subject: Opensolaris and Fedora Message-ID: <4669E3A5.5070507@fedoraproject.org> Hi Here is another article comparing them briefly http://www.itjungle.com/breaking/bn060107-story01.html "The details of Project Indiana are a bit thin, in fact, and the processes behind Fedora 7 are far more slick at this point. You can see a lot of bickering back and forth in Glynn's posting, which is how Sun--er, I mean OpenSolaris--announced what the project was all about. The idea is not fully cooked, but Sun would do well to just do exactly what the Fedora project has done with Fedora 7. Which is to make a source and binary build system that is Web-aware and that can create personalized distributions that suit the needs of anyone looking to do anything." Rahul From raveeshnagpal at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 03:39:05 2007 From: raveeshnagpal at gmail.com (Raveesh) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 09:09:05 +0530 Subject: DIGG THIS ARTICLE. In-Reply-To: <282D194D-0AB8-4375-8BF8-DF5906A3A551@gmail.com> References: <1181330789.11619.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <282D194D-0AB8-4375-8BF8-DF5906A3A551@gmail.com> Message-ID: <114157d40706082039n39eff3c9g2e8442b3c3782d6e@mail.gmail.com> Great article, would be great help when trying to install over large network! Raveesh On 6/9/07, Lisa Hoover wrote: > > I already Dugg this earlier today :) > > http://digg.com/linux_unix/ > How_to_create_custom_Fedora_install_images_with_Revisor > > Lisa H > > > > On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > Very diggable. > > > > --g > > > > On Fri, 8 Jun 2007, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > >> http://enterprise.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/2017215 > >> > >> Nice to see this is getting even more traction and notice. > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Greg DeKoenigsberg > > Community Development Manager > > Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 > > "To whomsoever much hath been given... > > ...from him much shall be asked" > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 9 03:51:33 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 09:21:33 +0530 Subject: A new overview of Fedora: Highlights? Message-ID: <466A23C5.1020400@fedoraproject.org> Hi The overview wiki page at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview is rather lame now and needs to be rewritten from scratch considering the current highlights and unique improvements in Fedora. It is linked prominently from the frontpage of fp.o so this is a pretty high priority. I would like to change this into a static page but we need the content written first. So what do we highlight in Fedora? * Strongly Free software focus. Free, open software and content (integration with Jamendo, Magnatune ..). 100% redistributable. * Predictable bi-yearly new releases with every release maintained for next two releases + month translates to over an year and month of updates. * Sponsored by Red Hat (Engineering, funds, marketing etc) with high amount of contributions (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions) leading to innovative changes. Development and integration of SELinux, Xen, mugshot etc. Working in partnership with the Free and open source software community with large number of volunteers. * Choice of installable live and regular images. * Graphical and text based installer (Anaconda) and administration tools (system-config-*) * Strong security features - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Security/Features * Unique virtualization management capabilities - http://berrange.com/personal/diary/2007/06/innovation-in-virtualization-management * Base for important derivatives and ports like RHEL, OLPC, Sony PlayStation 3 powered by IBM Cell processors etc. [Secondary architecture support for Sparc, Alpha, IA64, Arm etc to follow] * Easy to build upon, derive from and create custom spins and appliances - Open build system (koji), composing tools (pungi and mash), livecd-tools and graphical wrapper (Revisor). livecd-tools and pungi uses kickstart and kickstart style manifest files and hence barrier to understanding and adaptation is low. Anything else? Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jun 9 19:49:25 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:49:25 -0700 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181033751.10913.42.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1181033751.10913.42.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> Message-ID: <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 10:55 +0200, Stefan Held wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 10:47 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: > > Le Mar 5 juin 2007 10:32, Stefan Held a ?crit : > > > Red Hat Marketing and Legal wants no risk of confusion between RHEL > > and Fedora > > This is why i said we maybe have to discuss this again. Sorry, why is that a reason to discuss this again? > Trust me, i have recent and respectfull sources who said they think like > i do. I guess I'm a bit confused about the "not wearing a red fedora" rule for Ambassadors. That is something that is hard to make a rule. For example, I attend Bay Area Linux events as an Ambassador and as a Red Hat associate. If I wear my red fedora at the Fedora booth at LWCE, I dare anyone to tell me I cannot wear it. But I probably _won't_ wear it, because it confuses people. I'm not there as a representative of Red Hat, but as a Fedora community member. For me, this is a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE, and I think the same is true for all people who work for Red Hat and are a part of Fedora.[1] The core of all this is the way trademark laws work. Red Hat has the "Shadowman" logo trademarked, which is a human face in the shadow of a fedora he is wearing. It is obvious that, if Fedora were to use a hat in any form as part of its logo, it would confuse people as to what was Red Hat and what Fedora. Ironically, because of trademark laws, Red Hat would likely have to enforcing its trademark against Fedora. *ick* This is because, to keep a trademark current, one has to defend it against _all_ abuses, intentional or not. Now, an Ambassador wearing a red fedora at a Fedora booth doesn't seem much like "trademark infringement." But it could be confusing to people. So, maybe instead of it being a confusing rule, it could be a guideline -- "Ambassadors, please don't wear a red fedora or Red Hat gear at Fedora events, it confuses people." Is that good enough? - Karsten [1] To expand on that a bit ... Red Hat (RHT) is a public company with very strict rules (in the US in particular) about what can and cannot be discussed publicly. Fedora is the opposite of that -- there is almost nothing that cannot or should not be discussed in public. So, if I were at a Fedora booth, wearing all Red Hat gear, and talking about what is coming on the Fedora technology roadmap, I'm sure that is going to create confusion for someone. What if a financial analyst comes by, decides I'm giving insider information, and acts upon it? A series of coincidences could lead to me being arrested for violating insider trading laws, as well as out on the street without a job. IANAL, but as a layperson who has been trained on what I can and cannot do under US Federal laws, I have a pretty clear idea of what is risky behavior. So, I wear 100% Fedora gear at Fedora booths, and when people ask if I work for Red Hat, I say, "Yes, but that has nothing to do with why I'm here," etc. In fact, until _very_recently_, my Red Hat job was unrelated to my volunteer Fedora work. But because of my position in the company and the project, it would be easy to get confused about when I was speaking for one or the other group. Wearing one set of "colors" helps take care of that. -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmahut at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 9 22:08:41 2007 From: mmahut at fedoraproject.org (Marek Mahut) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:08:41 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1181033751.10913.42.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <466B24E9.20205@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 10:55 +0200, Stefan Held wrote: >> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 10:47 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: >>> Le Mar 5 juin 2007 10:32, Stefan Held a ?crit : >>> Red Hat Marketing and Legal wants no risk of confusion between RHEL >>> and Fedora >> This is why i said we maybe have to discuss this again. > > Sorry, why is that a reason to discuss this again? > >> Trust me, i have recent and respectfull sources who said they think like >> i do. > > I guess I'm a bit confused about the "not wearing a red fedora" rule for > Ambassadors. As for as I know, it's not only red hats but hats in general. "... that we not connect hats, red in color or otherwise ..."[1] [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct -- Marek Mahut Tel.: +420-532-294-111 (ex. 826-2046) Fedora Ambassador GSM: +420-731-076-674 http://www.fedoraproject.org http://www.jamendo.com ____________________________________________________________________ From ben.lewis at benl.co.uk Sat Jun 9 22:17:39 2007 From: ben.lewis at benl.co.uk (Benjamin Lewis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:17:39 +0100 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466B24E9.20205@fedoraproject.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1181033751.10913.42.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> <466B24E9.20205@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <466B2703.20905@benl.co.uk> Marek Mahut wrote: > Karsten Wade wrote: >> On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 10:55 +0200, Stefan Held wrote: >>> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 10:47 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: >>>> Le Mar 5 juin 2007 10:32, Stefan Held a ?crit : >>>> Red Hat Marketing and Legal wants no risk of confusion between RHEL >>>> and Fedora >>> This is why i said we maybe have to discuss this again. >> >> Sorry, why is that a reason to discuss this again? >> >>> Trust me, i have recent and respectfull sources who said they think >>> like >>> i do. >> >> I guess I'm a bit confused about the "not wearing a red fedora" rule for >> Ambassadors. > > As for as I know, it's not only red hats but hats in general. > > "... that we not connect hats, red in color or otherwise ..."[1] > > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct > This may actually pose a problem for me as I regularly (especially in the rain) wear a black fedora, and a few people have asked me if the fact I support Fedora is because of, or related to, this. Not that I intentionally connect the two, but average folk still seem to make that link... -- Benjamin Lewis Fedora Ambassador ben.lewis at benl.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://benl.co.uk./ PGP Key: 0x647E480C "In cases of major discrepancy, it is always reality that got it wrong" -- RFC 1118 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ben.lewis.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 889 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From crazymulgogi at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 22:32:40 2007 From: crazymulgogi at gmail.com (hymno) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:32:40 +0200 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466B2703.20905@benl.co.uk> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <46646E01.30402@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5da602d@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1181033751.10913.42.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> <466B24E9.20205@fedoraproject.org> <466B2703.20905@benl.co.uk> Message-ID: <1181428360.12437.7.camel@dhcppc0.lokaal> On Sat, 2007-06-09 at 23:17 +0100, Benjamin Lewis wrote: > Marek Mahut wrote: > > Karsten Wade wrote: > >> On Tue, 2007-06-05 at 10:55 +0200, Stefan Held wrote: > >>> Am Dienstag, den 05.06.2007, 10:47 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Mailhot: > >>>> Le Mar 5 juin 2007 10:32, Stefan Held a ?crit : > >>>> Red Hat Marketing and Legal wants no risk of confusion between RHEL > >>>> and Fedora > >>> This is why i said we maybe have to discuss this again. > >> > >> Sorry, why is that a reason to discuss this again? > >> > >>> Trust me, i have recent and respectfull sources who said they think > >>> like > >>> i do. > >> > >> I guess I'm a bit confused about the "not wearing a red fedora" rule for > >> Ambassadors. > > > > As for as I know, it's not only red hats but hats in general. > > > > "... that we not connect hats, red in color or otherwise ..."[1] > > > > > > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct > > > This may actually pose a problem for me as I regularly (especially in > the rain) wear a black fedora, and a few people have asked me if the > fact I support Fedora is because of, or related to, this. > > Not that I intentionally connect the two, but average folk still seem to > make that link... > If one is linked to Fedora in any way, to be kindly asked to refrain from using symbols such as red hats sounds reasonable to me. I have a hard time believing though, that one just has to buy that *any* hat should be avoided. I mean, that's just something that some people wear. Starting to feel relieved that the much appreciated Linux firm isn't called Green Shirt, or Black Sandal? ;) herman From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sun Jun 10 01:53:03 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:53:03 -0500 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <"46 646E01.30402"@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <"369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5d a602d"@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <"1181033751.1 0913.42.camel"@workstation.unixkiste.local> <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <466B597F.2090502@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Karsten Wade escribi?: > > I guess I'm a bit confused about the "not wearing a red fedora" rule for > Ambassadors. That is something that is hard to make a rule. For > example, I attend Bay Area Linux events as an Ambassador and as a Red > Hat associate. If I wear my red fedora at the Fedora booth at LWCE, I > dare anyone to tell me I cannot wear it. But I probably _won't_ wear > it, because it confuses people. I'm not there as a representative of > Red Hat, but as a Fedora community member. For me, this is a VERY BIG > DIFFERENCE, and I think the same is true for all people who work for Red > Hat and are a part of Fedora.[1] > > The core of all this is the way trademark laws work. Red Hat has the > "Shadowman" logo trademarked, which is a human face in the shadow of a > fedora he is wearing. It is obvious that, if Fedora were to use a hat > in any form as part of its logo, it would confuse people as to what was > Red Hat and what Fedora. Ironically, because of trademark laws, Red Hat > would likely have to enforcing its trademark against Fedora. *ick* > This is because, to keep a trademark current, one has to defend it > against _all_ abuses, intentional or not. > > Now, an Ambassador wearing a red fedora at a Fedora booth doesn't seem > much like "trademark infringement." But it could be confusing to > people. So, maybe instead of it being a confusing rule, it could be a > guideline -- "Ambassadors, please don't wear a red fedora or Red Hat > gear at Fedora events, it confuses people." Is that good enough? > > - Karsten > > [1] To expand on that a bit ... Red Hat (RHT) is a public company with > very strict rules (in the US in particular) about what can and cannot be > discussed publicly. Fedora is the opposite of that -- there is almost > nothing that cannot or should not be discussed in public. > > So, if I were at a Fedora booth, wearing all Red Hat gear, and talking > about what is coming on the Fedora technology roadmap, I'm sure that is > going to create confusion for someone. What if a financial analyst > comes by, decides I'm giving insider information, and acts upon it? A > series of coincidences could lead to me being arrested for violating > insider trading laws, as well as out on the street without a job. > > IANAL, but as a layperson who has been trained on what I can and cannot > do under US Federal laws, I have a pretty clear idea of what is risky > behavior. So, I wear 100% Fedora gear at Fedora booths, and when people > ask if I work for Red Hat, I say, "Yes, but that has nothing to do with > why I'm here," etc. In fact, until _very_recently_, my Red Hat job was > unrelated to my volunteer Fedora work. But because of my position in > the company and the project, it would be easy to get confused about when > I was speaking for one or the other group. Wearing one set of "colors" > helps take care of that. If anything about Fedora I do not agree with (keep in mind I'm a die-hard-supporter and fan of the distribution) is precisely the name. Not because of anything else, but because Red Hat *deliberately* depleted the word of meaning... So others wouldn't be "confused", but that actually turned out to be even more confusing. At first (not being an English speaker myself) I was a bit confused when these issues were first discussed, as I simply ignored what "Fedora" meant, then I realized that it is not only a kind of hat, but *the* kind of hat Red Hat uses in its logo... At first it made sense, but then it stopped when for all intents and purposes the word simply stopped meaning that within the Fedora and Red Hat context. I know it is intended as a pun and whether we like it or not (for English speakers at least) the word "fedora" still means a kind of hat, and hence will associate it with Red Hat (it doesn't take a rocket scientists to put it together Linux + fedora (a hat) = similar to Red Hat Linux), and even new users have heard of Red Hat at some point, more so being it the highest profile commercial Linux distributor. By the time I was aware of this situation (FC2) I was confused why did Red Hat let it go, I mean, they want to prevent brand confusion and association, yet, the name for their (at the time) community project, was the name of a kind of hat (which made sense back then), but then when the association bond was meant to be broken, I still say that necessarily a change of name should have been needed, to fully prevent any case of "mistaken identity". I know these all situations presented as the project matured, but in the fist place this was (IMO) what caused the project to "seek a new identity" through the means of the "logo", and sublimation of what did we (as the community) wanted Fedora to be, and based on that create its "corporative image" (AKA logo), but despite the name (which by this point it was merely a "word" without meaning), it cannot be associated to Red Hat in any way (effectively depleting of any meaning the word). I may be too pedantic about a simple freaking "word"... Just imagine what would it happened if Microsoft suddenly simply said that the word "word" has to be depleted of any meaning as it happens to be the name of one of its flagship products? Ok, that was a bit of an exaggeration, but by no means too far stretched out... I'm not *complaining* as such, and I *love* and support and live by Fedora any time, any place... This situation simply kinda bothered me, and it was until very recently that I became aware and could actually *express* what I thought about the whole deal, so that's why I kept my mouth shut when it was the time to "discuss it"... I just felt like taking the opportunity to vent out (if anyone cares at all). I don't mean to bash in any way this wonderful distribution... In the end, the name is just a "word", right? peace. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGa1l/XM+XOp70dwoRAiLwAJsHjAIqPrd1GSLBVaIZs8hGR7CpQACfQDaB nHYtfVHG4WF+Y1+RWtpQCt8= =wyku -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 14 07:03:21 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:33:21 +0530 Subject: Maximum PC reviews Fedora 7 Message-ID: <4670E839.4060704@fedoraproject.org> Hi " If you love Red Hat, it goes without saying that you're bound to go nuts over Fedora 7. But this distro is also worth a look for just about anyone who wants to try Linux for the first time. With a noob-friendly installation routine and simple customization menus that make daily use a breeze, we're glad Fedora 7 has thrown its hat into the ring." http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fedora_7_rivals_ubuntus_ease_of_use Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 14 09:28:15 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:58:15 +0530 Subject: Fedora 7 Xen First Look Message-ID: <46710A2F.6040509@fedoraproject.org> Hi "Overall, the tools for Xen management are coming along quite nicely, actually developing a bit faster than I expected, and Fedora 7 is a great place to try them out. They will certainly ease Xen management (and other virtualization technologies on Linux, for that matter) in the future and I look forward to taking advantage of them when they make their way into RHEL 5.1." http://enterpriselinuxlog.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/06/07/fedora-7-xen-first-look/ Rahul From jmbabich at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 21:10:34 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:10:34 +0300 Subject: Feedback on GITEX Exhibition Questionnaire Message-ID: <9d2c731f0706141410r396a08e8xd44204ac389e1592@mail.gmail.com> I posted a questionnaire at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexQuestionnaire from the folks at GITEX, the prominent ICT exhibition being held in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, from 8-12 September. Since this is the first event that I am attending (and organizing) as a Fedora Ambassador, I would appreciate it if you would take the time to review my responses. Feel free to offer any improvements. Note that GITEX is a commercial exhibition, so I have emphasized the commercial advantages of Fedora Linux and FOSS applications in general. John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jun 15 04:36:22 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:36:22 -0700 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <466B597F.2090502@prodigy.net.mx> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <"46 646E01.30402"@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <"369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5d a602d"@mail.gmail.com> <1181032343.10913.31.camel@workstation.unixkiste.local> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <"1181033751.1 0913.42.camel"@workstation.unixkiste.local> <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> <466B597F.2090502@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <1181882182.3469.967.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2007-06-09 at 20:53 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > If anything about Fedora I do not agree with (keep in mind I'm a > die-hard-supporter and fan of the distribution) is precisely the name. > Not because of anything else, but because Red Hat *deliberately* > depleted the word of meaning... So others wouldn't be "confused", but > that actually turned out to be even more confusing. I admit this whole thing has confused me, as well. I think it was less a situation of "choice" and more one of "organic growth." We had moved ahead with the merger of RHL and Fedora.us into a single project, picked a name, and put a distribution out with that name, before anyone noticed we had created the "hat" problem. Remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pingoufc4 at yahoo.fr Fri Jun 15 06:05:55 2007 From: pingoufc4 at yahoo.fr (pingou) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:05:55 +0200 Subject: Magazine Fedora 7 Message-ID: <46722C43.7050108@yahoo.fr> Dear all, As a member of the French Fedora ambassador team, I am proud to announce you the future release of an entirely magazine dedicated Fedora7. The announce of the release of the magazine is available there : http://www.linuxidentity.com/html/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11 The magazine will be published in France for 9,95???, it contains 2 DVDs (i386 & x86_64). The summary of the magazine is: * Contents of DVDs * Fedora 7 installation * Dual boot: Fedora and Windows * Working with Windows partitions under Fedora 7 * Packages management * Packages sources configuration * Fedora 7 system configuration * Wireless card (Wi-Fi) configuration * Configuration and utilization of ADSL connection * Web plugins installation * Fedora-fr community And as we wrote more article than needed, there will be 9 extras articles focused on Fedora 7 available on Linux Identity website. These articles are : * Emacs - an editor can even make a coffee * GPG - communication encryption * VIM - unix text editor * XChat-GNOME - new frontend to X-Chat IRC * Working with command line * Beagle - an efficient search tool * Multimedia on Fedora 7 * Pidgin - multiprotocol messenger * 3D desktop We added the link on the fedoraproject: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/PressArchive/F7 To those who are familiar with french I hope you will enjoy it :-) I would like to thank all people who helped us in a way or another Of course the other co-writers: *Beno??t Marcelin (French ambassador) *Ha??kel Gu??mar (French ambassador) And thanks to *Johan Cwiklinski (who provided us write support throuth his wiki) (French ambassador) *Maxime Carron (who gave us nice advices) (French ambassador) *Cerber666 (our awesome reviewer) (French user) Also thanks to all the other that I forget... Best regards, Pierre-Yves / pingou ___________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail r?invente le mail ! D?couvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface r?volutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Jun 15 06:08:57 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:08:57 -0500 Subject: Hats! In-Reply-To: <1181882182.3469.967.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3263b11b0706041249i61534fdavaf5c02c32ecc6bcb@mail.gmail.com> <"4 6 646E01.30402"@benl.co.uk> <466470A2.7020703@fedoraproject.org> <"369bce3b0706041310m143a1ec2m9171881c5 d a602d"@mail.gmail.com> <47759.192.54.193.51.1181033244.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <"1181033751 .1 0913.42.camel"@workstation.unixkiste.local> <1181418565.3469.432.camel@erato.phig.org> <466B597F.2090502@prodigy.net.mx> <1181882182.3469.967.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <46722CF9.10507@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Karsten Wade escribi?: > On Sat, 2007-06-09 at 20:53 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > >> If anything about Fedora I do not agree with (keep in mind I'm a >> die-hard-supporter and fan of the distribution) is precisely the name. >> Not because of anything else, but because Red Hat *deliberately* >> depleted the word of meaning... So others wouldn't be "confused", but >> that actually turned out to be even more confusing. > > I admit this whole thing has confused me, as well. I think it was less > a situation of "choice" and more one of "organic growth." We had moved > ahead with the merger of RHL and Fedora.us into a single project, picked > a name, and put a distribution out with that name, before anyone noticed > we had created the "hat" problem. I know it wasn't "intentional" at first, as that what it was all about (Red Hat using another "hat" as its community branch, or so it seemed back then), however when the whole issue about the growth of Fedora and the direction the distribution was heading (by the time FC 4 was about to be released), with the change of "identity" and the "prohibition" to associate Fedora (inherently a hat) with Red Hat (pretty much back then still the "parent" company) started this whole mess. The matter complicated even more as the distribution had gained great exposure, acceptance and recognition... This was a problem, as changing the name at this point, would have most likely generated reactions similar to those back when the project was first announced, and the cancellation of the old-style RHL distribution was in progress in favor of RHEL. However now that Red Hat has somewhat admitted that Fedora has become its "upstream", I don't see the harm in the "hat" association, but that's the field of the marketing guys and a bunch of stuff I simply don't get. > > Remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be > adequately explained by stupidity." > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor Indeed... Maybe the project should have been named differently from the start... But the name stuck and grew. > > - Karsten -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGciz4XM+XOp70dwoRArnIAJ9EIM18eCmyGKNDYMs7rqvDtsMFgwCghE+a A+/mhhLLgTphNAHwY45zHpk= =5E2Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Jun 15 06:19:58 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:49:58 +0530 Subject: Magazine Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46722C43.7050108@yahoo.fr> References: <46722C43.7050108@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <46722F8E.5070906@fedoraproject.org> pingou wrote: > Dear all, > > As a member of the French Fedora ambassador team, I am proud to > announce you the future release of an entirely magazine dedicated Fedora7. > > The announce of the release of the magazine is available there : > http://www.linuxidentity.com/html/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11 > > The magazine will be published in France for 9,95?, it contains 2 DVDs > (i386 & x86_64). > Good job folks. Does anyone know what's the circulation rate of this magazine? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Jun 15 14:34:52 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:04:52 +0530 Subject: Feedback on GITEX Exhibition Questionnaire In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0706141410r396a08e8xd44204ac389e1592@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d2c731f0706141410r396a08e8xd44204ac389e1592@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4672A38C.4070607@fedoraproject.org> John Babich wrote: > I posted a questionnaire at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GitexQuestionnaire > from the folks at GITEX, the prominent ICT exhibition being held > in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, from 8-12 September. > > Since this is the first event that I am attending (and organizing) as a > Fedora Ambassador, I would appreciate it if you would take the > time to review my responses. Feel free to offer any improvements. > > Note that GITEX is a commercial exhibition, so I have emphasized > the commercial advantages of Fedora Linux and FOSS applications > in general. Assuming the general tone of the answers is suitable I have made some minor modifications. Feel free to review or revert as necessary. Rahul From anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:48:10 2007 From: anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com (Anand Capur) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:18:10 +0530 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine Message-ID: What do you guys think of putting a team together and making a Fedora Online Magazine? I would head it (Be the editor-in-chief), and we would publish it every 2 months (with some other special releases). I really think this would be good for us. We would have no costs besides hosting for the magazine which I think the web team could take care of (I'll ask them also). We could have a set few staff (5-10), and then have open submission where all the members of the community can send in articles, and the staff would pick the best to go in. I'd license the magazine under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License (or something else?) the point is it wouldn't be copyrighted (or it can be... but i'd prefer it to be open). We could arrange to get it printed in the future and take advertisements from people in the community. No stupid ads for some buy this coffee maker today..unless the coffee maker runs fedora;). So yeah, I just wanna get approval, and see how it goes. If you wanna be on the staff and you are a good writer (duh....) just email me (acapur{At]arcnetworks[dot}biz). It could really market fedora, get us more users, and teach our users new things. I really wanna do this, I've got some really good ideas!! P.S. I've BCC'ed this to the Ambassadors list. Thanks, Anand Capur (Fedora Ambassador) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From caillon at redhat.com Fri Jun 15 16:19:08 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:19:08 -0400 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> Anand Capur wrote: > What do you guys think of putting a team together and making a Fedora > Online > Magazine? Might want to talk to the Fedora Weekly News guys. I always thought that was supposed to be the magazine type thing. From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jun 15 16:48:08 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:48:08 -0700 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> References: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 12:19 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Anand Capur wrote: > > What do you guys think of putting a team together and making a Fedora > > Online > > Magazine? > > Might want to talk to the Fedora Weekly News guys. I always thought > that was supposed to be the magazine type thing. As a matter of fact, I stopped work on this ... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Magazine ... when FWN came into the fold of the Fedora Project. IMO, we should *not* fragment our efforts. Maybe there is some value in putting together a longer magazine format. Personally, I think it is a HUGE challenge for volunteers. We've been slowly working up from shorter content to full-lengthy guides for Fedora Docs, and we are not there yet. It takes a fair amount of effort to put FWN together. There is more to being an editor than one might think, unless you have actually been an editor-in-chief. Even an every-other-month magazine with a small staff is going to take some full-time weeks to make happen. Instead, if we build up the staff of FWN, then look at growing that into outputting a bi-monthly magazine, that has good chance of success. I think this is a situation where we need to learn to crawl, then walk, before we run. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jun 15 16:59:58 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:59:58 -0700 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1181926798.3469.988.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 21:18 +0530, Anand Capur wrote: > I really wanna do this, I've got some really good ideas!! > P.S. I've BCC'ed this to the Ambassadors list. BTW, my other email wasn't meant to discourage; just re-read it and realized I forgot to say ... Great idea! It's hard but rewarding work. Maybe we can get some pointers from the Red Hat Magazine folks? My biggest suggestion is to do it from within Fedora itself, and make it part of/related to the work the Fedora News team does. For example, I'd love to see a long article from Oisin talking about his experiences covering the developers. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:17:08 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:17:08 +0300 Subject: Feedback on GITEX Exhibition Questionnaire In-Reply-To: <4672A38C.4070607@fedoraproject.org> References: <9d2c731f0706141410r396a08e8xd44204ac389e1592@mail.gmail.com> <4672A38C.4070607@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0706151017x6cf9211dxf7c35e009fc3d937@mail.gmail.com> On 6/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Assuming the general tone of the answers is suitable I have made some > minor modifications. Feel free to review or revert as necessary. > Thanks. I knew something was missing. The i18n and L10n topics are very relevant. I will expand upon them. Another example of the value of teamwork. John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:30:58 2007 From: anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com (Anand Capur) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:00:58 +0530 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <1181926798.3469.988.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1181926798.3469.988.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: ok, well I've been an editor-in-chief for some local magazines before, so I know how it goes. The FWN is just a newsletter, not a mag. I'm talking good article size, with illustrations, etc.. We can start small (less pages, less content, and grow) since we won't be a "commercial" magazine we don't have "set due dates/times". Also, I've noticed people tend to work harder on "their" articles, then say user manuals/guides. You get a better sense of accomplishment. Can I start work on this? If so lets get a team together =D. I'll aim for a release in August? Thanks, Anand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Jun 15 17:27:36 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:27:36 +0100 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4672CC08.8090502@glezos.com> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > It takes a fair amount of effort to put FWN together. There is more to > being an editor than one might think, unless you have actually been an > editor-in-chief. Even an every-other-month magazine with a small staff > is going to take some full-time weeks to make happen. > > Instead, if we build up the staff of FWN, then look at growing that into > outputting a bi-monthly magazine, that has good chance of success. I > think this is a situation where we need to learn to crawl, then walk, > before we run. +1. The FWN is continually increasing its size and quality, which is great considering its publication frequency. It would be much easier for the magazine to work through FWN and every two months take a "snapshot", extract the most important past artcles, add up some guides, images, interviews, statistics. Doing it through FWN is like spreading the editing work in the whole 2 months instead of 2-3 weeks at the end. The content base would be bigger and of higher quality (more contributors, more eyes to edit). A magazine like this will bring a lot of energy to all our marketing/news efforts, and why not start again the Interviews thing (/wiki/Interviews). -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:46:09 2007 From: anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com (Anand Capur) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:16:09 +0530 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <4672CC08.8090502@glezos.com> References: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> <4672CC08.8090502@glezos.com> Message-ID: ok, lets do a combination of both. We can have writers write articles to fill empty space, we'll take articles from FWN (as bulk of mag), add guides, columns, etc... How about we intervew Thomas Chung? He seems like he does ALOT for fedora! So, whoever wants to be on the "core" magazine team please email me at (acapur[at}arcnetworks{dot]biz). We'll get this "party" started!!! Thanks, Anand P.S. I run my magazines where we work throughout, not 2-3 weeks @ the end crunching to get done ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Jun 15 18:28:23 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <1181926798.3469.988.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1181926798.3469.988.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 21:18 +0530, Anand Capur wrote: >> I really wanna do this, I've got some really good ideas!! >> P.S. I've BCC'ed this to the Ambassadors list. So let me ask a few questions. 1. *Why* do you want to do it? Do you want to do Fedora Magazine because you think it's badly needed? Do you have a bunch you'd like to say? Do you want experience running an online magazine? I think it's important to have a clear and honest answer to this question. 2. Is it possible to use Fedora News as a jumping-off point? Maybe work in conjunction with Thomas? 3. Would you consider working in conjunction with Red Hat Magazine? Because we're starting to look at increasing our community involvement as well. --g > BTW, my other email wasn't meant to discourage; just re-read it and > realized I forgot to say ... > > Great idea! It's hard but rewarding work. > > Maybe we can get some pointers from the Red Hat Magazine folks? > > My biggest suggestion is to do it from within Fedora itself, and make it > part of/related to the work the Fedora News team does. For example, I'd > love to see a long article from Oisin talking about his experiences > covering the developers. > > - Karsten > -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From tchung at fedoraproject.org Fri Jun 15 18:37:47 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:37:47 -0700 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> <4672CC08.8090502@glezos.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706151137j5231fac7k551f12eb59e741f9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/15/07, Anand Capur wrote: > ok, lets do a combination of both. We can have writers write articles to > fill empty space, we'll take articles from FWN (as bulk of mag), add guides, > columns, etc... How about we intervew Thomas Chung? He seems like he does > ALOT for fedora! So, whoever wants to be on the "core" magazine team please > email me at (acapur[at}arcnetworks{dot]biz). We'll get this > "party" started!!! I'm sorry but I'm *extremely* busy at work right now so I won't be available for interview. Thank you for your enthusiasm but I would suggest to focus on getting enough volunteers before you go forward. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From santosh at fedoraproject.org Fri Jun 15 21:21:12 2007 From: santosh at fedoraproject.org (Santosh Kumar) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:51:12 +0530 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706151137j5231fac7k551f12eb59e741f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> <4672CC08.8090502@glezos.com> <369bce3b0706151137j5231fac7k551f12eb59e741f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/16/07, Thomas Chung wrote: > > On 6/15/07, Anand Capur wrote: > > ok, lets do a combination of both. We can have writers write articles to > > fill empty space, we'll take articles from FWN (as bulk of mag), add > guides, > > columns, etc... How about we intervew Thomas Chung? He seems like he > does > > ALOT for fedora! So, whoever wants to be on the "core" magazine team > please > > email me at (acapur[at}arcnetworks{dot]biz). We'll get this > > "party" started!!! > > I'm sorry but I'm *extremely* busy at work right now so I won't be > available for interview. > Thank you for your enthusiasm but I would suggest to focus on getting > enough volunteers before you go forward. Talking about the magazine... lemme be one among the first volunteers out here... i would like to give you the amount of webspace you ask for!! -- Santosh Kumar **************** CAUTION - Disclaimer ************ This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). 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URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Jun 16 00:01:24 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:01:24 -0700 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <4672BBFC.5040907@redhat.com> <1181926088.3469.983.camel@erato.phig.org> <4672CC08.8090502@glezos.com> Message-ID: <1181952084.3469.1028.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 23:16 +0530, Anand Capur wrote: > ok, lets do a combination of both. Right. I was thinking, maybe bring the magazine under the existing Fedora News project? That way it is a peer of FWN, working along side, sharing staff, stories, etc. ... but it still stands-alone For someone like me, I can then lend my editing expertise to both, knowing it is helping to train the same/related writers and editors. One thing to remind people is, if they are ever interested in getting *paid* to write about FLOSS, this is great training, experience, and resume/CV building. > We can have writers write articles to fill empty space, we'll take > articles from FWN (as bulk of mag), add guides, columns, etc... How > about we intervew Thomas Chung? He seems like he does ALOT for fedora! > So, whoever wants to be on the "core" magazine team please email me at > (acapur[at}arcnetworks{dot]biz). We'll get this "party" started!!! Do you want to move this discussion and collaboration to fedora-news-list? Again, rather than start yet another new mailing list, we can ride the momentum of an existing one. > P.S. I run my magazines where we work throughout, not 2-3 weeks @ the > end crunching to get done ;) Bless you for that! Having an EiC with experience who wants things to go smoothly as a big +1 for me. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From wilmer at fedoraproject.org Sat Jun 16 00:36:01 2007 From: wilmer at fedoraproject.org (Wilmer Jaramillo M.) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:36:01 -0400 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b26c4260706151736of6f8dfcya46e2d062010b8f7@mail.gmail.com> On 6/15/07, Anand Capur wrote: > What do you guys think of putting a team together and making a Fedora Online > Magazine? I would head it (Be the editor-in-chief), and we would publish it > every 2 months (with some other special releases). I really think this would > be good for us. We would have no costs besides hosting for the magazine > which I think the web team could take care of (I'll ask them also). We could > have a set few staff (5-10), and then have open submission where all A magazine requires of much effort, multiple actors like publishers, content's generator, artists and most important, voluntarys, without doubt it's a great initiative, nevertheless, I think that FWN in quality, format, and frequency's publication and its a great work, now, have not been exposed as to be it's publish, to that we want to arrive, without a doubt some FWN is not the suitable format to approach new users, but we can feed the magazine with FWN content. In Venezuela, for example we begin a effort related to the subject, we already have several months publishing a magazine in Spanish with contributions of the ambassadors for Venezuela, it magazine is called "Fedora Planet(in english)", which is characterized by be informative, technical and of easy print, at this moment we go in I number 16 of the magazine.[1] I think that we must reflect on this question and consider as it goes to be the approach that is desired to orient the magazine. greetings [1] Fedora Magazine Files (PDF) in Spanish: http://www.fedora-ve.org/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/Itemid,/gid,81/orderby,dmdate_published/ascdesc,DESC/ -- Wilmer Jaramillo M. GPG Key Fingerprint = 0666 D0D3 24CE 8935 9C24 BBF1 87DD BEA2 A4B2 1E8A From anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 04:01:40 2007 From: anandcomputerphreak at gmail.com (Anand Capur) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 09:31:40 +0530 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: <2b26c4260706151736of6f8dfcya46e2d062010b8f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b26c4260706151736of6f8dfcya46e2d062010b8f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I want to do it, because I think Fedora needs a dedicated magazine. I also want experience running an online magazine (I think it would be easier than a print one). I don't have a lot to say, but I am a very good editor and can write good stories when I have an interest (I couldn't write one about the dog next door). Fedora News would be our jumping off point, we would get the bulk of the content from there. Sure, we can work in conjunction with RHM (What do you exactly mean by this though?). Thomas can help, but in conjunction wouldn't work out as he says he is very busy (I can understand that!). There are localized fedora magazines, but this would be the "official" one. Having it as a peer of FWN, but still separate is exactly what I wanted, just wasn't sure how to put it. I'd prefer it to have its own mailing list, so I could get one from fedora-magazine at redhat.com, or create one on the domain I buy. Thanks, Anand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sdl.web at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 21:25:17 2007 From: sdl.web at gmail.com (Leo) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:25:17 +0100 Subject: Magazine Fedora 7 References: <46722C43.7050108@yahoo.fr> <46722F8E.5070906@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: ----- Rahul Sundaram (2007-06-15) wrote:----- > pingou wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> As a member of the French Fedora ambassador team, I am proud to > >> announce you the future release of an entirely magazine dedicated Fedora7. >> >> The announce of the release of the magazine is available there : >> http://www.linuxidentity.com/html/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11 >> >> The magazine will be published in France for 9,95?, it contains 2 DVDs >> (i386 & x86_64). >> > > Good job folks. Does anyone know what's the circulation rate of this > magazine? > > Rahul This is the first time I have seen this magazine but yeah a great news. -- Leo (GPG Key: 9283AA3F) From webpath at fedoraproject.org Sun Jun 17 19:42:47 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:42:47 -0400 Subject: Fedora Repos on DVD Message-ID: <46758EB7.30208@fedoraproject.org> I haven't gotten much feed back from the Fedora Community on ways to boost capacity (even just keep up with..) Free Media. What I've come up with here is to offer the Fedora Repos on DVD [1]. Complete Fedora 7 Repository on 3 DVDs. Includes the two Release Repository DVDs and the Updates Repository as of June 15, 2007, Each set we ship from On-Disk.com will include three Free Media Sponsorhsips so I would be grateful if you could digg this [2] ~Karlie [1] http://on-disk.com/product_info.php/products_id/288 [2] http://digg.com/linux_unix/Fedora_7_Repository_on_DVDs From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Jun 18 00:41:37 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:41:37 +0100 Subject: Fedora Repos on DVD In-Reply-To: <46758EB7.30208@fedoraproject.org> References: <46758EB7.30208@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4675D4C1.5050000@glezos.com> O/H Karlie Robinson ??????: > I haven't gotten much feed back from the Fedora Community on ways to > boost capacity (even just keep up with..) Free Media. First of all, a big 'bravo' for all those who have helped the Free Media project so far. I belive these new, mostly off-broadband users who have received a free media have probably spread the word about Fedora more than many others who simply downloaded it. I've met some ambassadors who would be very interested in helping out, but found the whole FreeMedia project a bit complicated for them to participate. They prefer localized efforts, which sounds rational. They'd prefer if they received an email for each request in their language isntead of the web form. Also, I believe that eg. a greek user would prefer requesting a media from his local group of ambassadors instead of our (english) website. I haven't studied in depth the current approach for sending media, however I'll jump straight to a suggestion. Probably some of the parts following are already happening. It's better than keep it in one's mind I guess, so the following is my 2 cents to the Free media program. 1. Let's find a way to have *translatable* web page with information for which countries we could send media to, and which members of the community can handle the requests. Probably a Google map? "Find your closest Fedora shop!" This shouldn't be on the wiki. 2. How very easy-to-understand, minimal-content pages on "How to request". Should be as easy as: "Fill in this form, choose the closest *person* to you from the following list". 3. Have a very easy-to-understand page on how to become a volunteer. Should be as easy as "Fill in this form. Say how many requests you expect from your country/region. Say how many CDs per week you can send." 4. Send this person a package with X CDs inside, envelopes, some money to buy stamps and a poster or hat as a "thanks". He will buy stamps from his local post office, and for each request, put a CD in an envelope, stick a stamp, write an address, and slip it in the mailbox. 5. Have him register on a wiki page where he sent the CDs and how many stamps he put on the envelope. In the question "who will code the website?", the answer could be "with clear enough specs, we can put a request to fedora-websites and someone could jump right in. Besides, we are on coding spree in coding new applications lately. :-) My $.02 -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 04:47:26 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:47:26 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? Message-ID: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> Comments!!! - FREE SOFTWARE DEFINITION - By Free Software Foundation Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software: * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. These firmwares below affect us directly, affect our freedom! - ipw2100-firmware-1.3-8.noarch.rpm Redistributable, no modification permitted - ipw2200-firmware-3.0-9.noarch.rpm Redistributable, no modification permitted - iwlwifi-firmware-2.14.3-2.noarch.rpm Redistributable, no modification permitted - zd1211-firmware-1.3-4.fc7.noarch.rpm GPL (hex dump, not source code) A member of the FSF commented, "these firmwares are not free, if the firmwares are not free, the software are not free!". If fedora include non free software, we are not a 100% Free Distribution. Where is the our INFINITE FREEDOM ? What is the position of the project on non free firmwares? ASS: Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira www.projetofedora.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 18 06:13:32 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:43:32 +0530 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4676228C.80801@fedoraproject.org> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > If fedora include non free software, we are not a 100% Free Distribution. > > Where is the our INFINITE FREEDOM ? That wasn't even accepted as a slogan formally. > What is the position of the project on non free firmwares? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#head-adf31c383612aac313719f7b4f8167b7dcf245d2 FSF position on this seems to be rather inconsistent to me since they have endorsed certain distributions as Free even if they include such firmware in the kernel inherited from upstream. Rahul From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 18 06:30:20 2007 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:30:20 -0700 Subject: Fedora Repos on DVD In-Reply-To: <4675D4C1.5050000@glezos.com> References: <46758EB7.30208@fedoraproject.org> <4675D4C1.5050000@glezos.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0706172330l1136f51bla0c891ed513ad92@mail.gmail.com> On 6/17/07, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > O/H Karlie Robinson ??????: > > I haven't gotten much feed back from the Fedora Community on ways to > > boost capacity (even just keep up with..) Free Media. > > First of all, a big 'bravo' for all those who have helped the Free Media project > so far. I belive these new, mostly off-broadband users who have received a free > media have probably spread the word about Fedora more than many others who > simply downloaded it. > > I've met some ambassadors who would be very interested in helping out, but found > the whole FreeMedia project a bit complicated for them to participate. They > prefer localized efforts, which sounds rational. They'd prefer if they received > an email for each request in their language isntead of the web form. Also, I > believe that eg. a greek user would prefer requesting a media from his local > group of ambassadors instead of our (english) website. > > I haven't studied in depth the current approach for sending media, however I'll > jump straight to a suggestion. Probably some of the parts following are already > happening. It's better than keep it in one's mind I guess, so the following is > my 2 cents to the Free media program. > > 1. Let's find a way to have *translatable* web page with information for which > countries we could send media to, and which members of the community can handle > the requests. Probably a Google map? "Find your closest Fedora shop!" This > shouldn't be on the wiki. > > 2. How very easy-to-understand, minimal-content pages on "How to request". > Should be as easy as: "Fill in this form, choose the closest *person* to you > from the following list". > > 3. Have a very easy-to-understand page on how to become a volunteer. Should be > as easy as "Fill in this form. Say how many requests you expect from your > country/region. Say how many CDs per week you can send." > > 4. Send this person a package with X CDs inside, envelopes, some money to buy > stamps and a poster or hat as a "thanks". He will buy stamps from his local post > office, and for each request, put a CD in an envelope, stick a stamp, write an > address, and slip it in the mailbox. > > 5. Have him register on a wiki page where he sent the CDs and how many stamps > he put on the envelope. > > > In the question "who will code the website?", the answer could be "with clear > enough specs, we can put a request to fedora-websites and someone could jump > right in. Besides, we are on coding spree in coding new applications lately. :-) > > My $.02 > > -d > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos Hi Dimitris, Thank you for your feedback on FreeMedia Program. It's a little off topic for this thread so I would like you to join FreeMedia Program and we can improve the program together. To join, please see refer to following page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/Contributors Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 18 09:12:39 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:42:39 +0530 Subject: Fedora Online Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46764C87.8040605@fedoraproject.org> Anand Capur wrote: > What do you guys think of putting a team together and making a Fedora > Online Magazine? I would head it (Be the editor-in-chief), and we would > publish it every 2 months (with some other special releases). The last time we briefly discussed this we wanted to call it "Fedora Journal" and fedorajournal.com was registered and is still available. Rahul From webpath at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 18 13:11:59 2007 From: webpath at fedoraproject.org (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:11:59 -0400 Subject: Fedora Repos on DVD In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0706172330l1136f51bla0c891ed513ad92@mail.gmail.com> References: <46758EB7.30208@fedoraproject.org> <4675D4C1.5050000@glezos.com> <369bce3b0706172330l1136f51bla0c891ed513ad92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4676849F.6060800@fedoraproject.org> Thomas Chung wrote: > On 6/17/07, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> O/H Karlie Robinson ??????: >> > I haven't gotten much feed back from the Fedora Community on ways to >> > boost capacity (even just keep up with..) Free Media. >> >> First of all, a big 'bravo' for all those who have helped the Free Media project >> so far. I belive these new, mostly off-broadband users who have received a free >> media have probably spread the word about Fedora more than many others who >> simply downloaded it. Word of mouth is working very well for the users of Free Media, but it's working poorly within the Fedora Marketing Community. Do you remember a thank you note I sent to the list a few weeks ago? The user shared his Fedora Free Media disc with no less than 38 people in Mozambique. While it's unreasonable to think that every free media disc is getting that much use, Free Media does just as much for getting the word out - especially in under served areas. (38 people who would never see the LinuxTag booth or attend a FUDCon etc) >> >> I've met some ambassadors who would be very interested in helping out, but found >> the whole FreeMedia project a bit complicated for them to participate. They >> prefer localized efforts, which sounds rational. They'd prefer if they received >> an email for each request in their language isntead of the web form. Also, I >> believe that eg. a greek user would prefer requesting a media from his local >> group of ambassadors instead of our (english) website. While I do understand the language barrier, I don't understand the confusion about being local. Thomas Chung does an excellent job sorting out each request into an easy to read list. All anyone has to do is look for a request by country. Steps are... 1) Join the free Media Mailing list 2) Check the wiki for the current list http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/F7DVD/June for someone near you (every month has it's own list) 3) search your email or the list archives for the address 4) Reply to the Free Media Mailing list with "I accept this request" so we know it's been filled. 5) mail the disc. >> >> I haven't studied in depth the current approach for sending media, however I'll >> jump straight to a suggestion. Probably some of the parts following are already >> happening. It's better than keep it in one's mind I guess, so the following is >> my 2 cents to the Free media program. >> >> 1. Let's find a way to have *translatable* web page with information for which >> countries we could send media to, and which members of the community can handle >> the requests. Probably a Google map? "Find your closest Fedora shop!" This >> shouldn't be on the wiki. I think this creates way more work than is needed. >> >> 2. How very easy-to-understand, minimal-content pages on "How to request". >> Should be as easy as: "Fill in this form, choose the closest *person* to you >> from the following list". Choosing the closest person will create more problems than it helps solve. First off, this is a volunteer project so not everyone has the time and resources to accept discs every week. Second, we already have this system in place... It's just the other way around (See above). We choose the user rather than a user choosing us. >> >> 3. Have a very easy-to-understand page on how to become a volunteer. Should be >> as easy as "Fill in this form. Say how many requests you expect from your >> country/region. Say how many CDs per week you can send." I agree that this should be easy. I'm hoping this email will show how easy it is. >> >> 4. Send this person a package with X CDs inside, envelopes, some money to buy >> stamps and a poster or hat as a "thanks". He will buy stamps from his local post >> office, and for each request, put a CD in an envelope, stick a stamp, write an >> address, and slip it in the mailbox. This further complicates the logistics. As it is now, if you accept the request, you burn the disc, put it in a package and mail it. Once in a while there are discs left over from events that will be used for Free Media. >> >> 5. Have him register on a wiki page where he sent the CDs and how many stamps >> he put on the envelope. We do use the wiki for tracking, but Thomas Chung does the updates. >> >> >> In the question "who will code the website?", the answer could be "with clear >> enough specs, we can put a request to fedora-websites and someone could jump >> right in. Besides, we are on coding spree in coding new applications lately. :-) There has been talk of automating the current system, but until we get to the point we can fill every request every month it seems kind of pointless to put resources into coding an application when we can't find enough people to burn/mail Free Media. >> >> My $.02 >> >> -d >> >> >> -- >> Dimitris Glezos > > Hi Dimitris, > Thank you for your feedback on FreeMedia Program. > It's a little off topic for this thread so I would like you to join > FreeMedia Program and we can improve the program together. Frankly, I don't think it is off topic to discuss the marketing potentioal of Free Media on the marketing list and keep the Free Media list on-task for sorting requests and replys. Free Media is Grass Roots Marketing at it's finest, yet it's not treated that way. > To join, please see refer to following page: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/Contributors I also think it's in appropriate for someone to join a project before they know what they're getting into. I hope this email has helped clear up the steps involved and show that it's really more simple that it seems. From gmaxwell at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 03:07:18 2007 From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 23:07:18 -0400 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <4676228C.80801@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <4676228C.80801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 6/18/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#head-adf31c383612aac313719f7b4f8167b7dcf245d2 > > FSF position on this seems to be rather inconsistent to me since they > have endorsed certain distributions as Free even if they include such > firmware in the kernel inherited from upstream. They have? Where? As far as I know the only GNU/Linux distribution currently endorsed by the FSF is gNewSense. gNewSense ships a patched kernel which removes all the blobs. If you are aware of anything in gNewSense which isn't consistent with the position that user loadable firmware needs to be free, please let them know.. I'm sure they will be glad to fix it. I think it is past due for Fedora to take at least a half-step and segregate the non-free firmware into separate packages which can be excluded at install time. Doing so will not win Fedora any credit from the FSF, but it will do nothing to harm the standing hardware compatibility and it will enable those who care and who want to avoid that hardware to do so. Increasing awareness is good for everyone. Really, I think it's quite unfortunate that the 'most free'/FSF approved' distro is based on Ubuntu... a distribution which hasn't a fraction of Fedora's commitment to freedom. .. but it is what it is. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 19 12:24:02 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:54:02 +0530 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <4676228C.80801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4677CAE2.6070605@fedoraproject.org> Gregory Maxwell wrote: > On 6/18/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#head-adf31c383612aac313719f7b4f8167b7dcf245d2 > >> >> FSF position on this seems to be rather inconsistent to me since they >> have endorsed certain distributions as Free even if they include such >> firmware in the kernel inherited from upstream. > > They have? Where? > > As far as I know the only GNU/Linux distribution currently endorsed by > the FSF is gNewSense. gNewSense ships a patched kernel which removes > all the blobs. See http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions. All the distributions except maybe gNewSense (I asked for more information but didn't get any detailed response) have such firmware in them. > If you are aware of anything in gNewSense which isn't consistent with > the position that user loadable firmware needs to be free, please let > them know.. I'm sure they will be glad to fix it. They have already been informed personally by me on several occasions and they haven't fixed it. You might want to do some cross checking yourself before making claims. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis > I think it is past due for Fedora to take at least a half-step and > segregate the non-free firmware into separate packages which can be > excluded at install time. The in-kernel firmware? It's not a easy process. See Fedora Advisory Board list archives for details. Rahul From jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com Tue Jun 19 12:27:53 2007 From: jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com (Jonas Karlsson) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:27:53 +0200 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk Message-ID: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> Hello all, This is my first post to this list, hopefully some of you can agree to what I'm writing. I've been an Unix user since early 90's and did test Linux for the first time in 1993. I've also been running fedora since core 1 and has been a frequent user of radhat distributions over the years. Not that I've never used other distributions, well I have and most of you guys have. Back in the early Linux years it was debian on firewalls and slackware for coding and redhat for the graphical stuff, well that have since changed. Today I feel happy just running Fedora and release 7 for the moment. But one thing that has always nagged at me is why do the Linux community often have a hard time at working toghether. This is probably the one thing that still makes Linux not go all the way in many offices, because of 3rd party problematics. I (after all my years) still do have big troubble selecting a 3rd party repository every time a new version of fedora comes around. Do I use this or that with this version of fedora, which works best.. and help me upstairs.. you have to choose because they are not campatible and might break your system and kill all of your dependencies, shit!.. Does this sound familiar? No? .. YES!!! This is year 2007 and the problematics above describes scenarios that should have been gone many years ago.. It's like the floppy disk. That sucker still remains in pc systems even today. If you need to install (dont speak #?%#? in the church!, well I'm a scientist so I guess I can.) Windows with advanced scsi options, your driver is on a floppy.. Darn, well luckily for me I do try not to use MS$ server as often as possible so that problem is soon past me. Ok back on track (3rd party repositories) It's way over time to have guys like livna, freshrpms, rpmforge and atrpms etc start a collective, collaborative and functional repository (for the greater good). There are many guys doing the same work that the other one already has done, and some times one repository does not work, the next time it's the other way around. Just start one big community 3rd party repository, define rules, let everyone contribute and mirror it. Now that we finally are past Core and Extras and it is merged into one. The next step shold be to clean up the above described mess that is doing harm to the Fedora users and the general community by creating confusion and eventually breaks your installation. So please guys keep up the good work, but do it together! // Jonas From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 19 12:27:45 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Jonas Karlsson wrote: > Ok back on track (3rd party repositories) It's way over time to have guys > like livna, freshrpms, rpmforge and atrpms etc start a collective, > collaborative and functional repository (for the greater good). There are > many guys doing the same work that the other one already has done, and some > times one repository does not work, the next time it's the other way around. > Just start one big community 3rd party repository, define rules, let everyone > contribute and mirror it. Which is exactly what they're doing, in fact. :) Talk to Thorsten Leemhuis to learn more about this effort, and how you can help. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 19 12:40:55 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:10:55 +0530 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <4677CED7.6070005@fedoraproject.org> Jonas Karlsson wrote: > Ok back on track (3rd party repositories) It's way over time to have > guys like livna, freshrpms, rpmforge and atrpms etc start a collective, > collaborative and functional repository (for the greater good). There > are many guys doing the same work that the other one already has done, > and some times one repository does not work, the next time it's the > other way around. Just start one big community 3rd party repository, > define rules, let everyone contribute and mirror it. > > Now that we finally are past Core and Extras and it is merged into one. > The next step shold be to clean up the above described mess that is > doing harm to the Fedora users and the general community by creating > confusion and eventually breaks your installation. So please guys keep > up the good work, but do it together! There is some ongoing efforts on consolidating some of the popular third party repositories. I guess they have been waiting to get off the ground solidly before announcing their efforts. Keep in mind there is always going to be other third party repositories for Fedora. Popular distributions tend to attract people with different policies. A number of Fedora contributors have their own repositories because they haven't had the time to work through package reviews, licensing etc. There are tools like yum priorities plugin which can help you deal with them if you really need to mix these repositories. Rahul From jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com Tue Jun 19 13:42:44 2007 From: jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com (Jonas Karlsson) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:42:44 +0200 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677CED7.6070005@fedoraproject.org> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677CED7.6070005@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4677DD54.2080008@fxdev.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jonas Karlsson wrote: > >> Ok back on track (3rd party repositories) It's way over time to have >> guys like livna, freshrpms, rpmforge and atrpms etc start a >> collective, collaborative and functional repository (for the greater >> good). There are many guys doing the same work that the other one >> already has done, and some times one repository does not work, the >> next time it's the other way around. Just start one big community 3rd >> party repository, define rules, let everyone contribute and mirror it. >> >> Now that we finally are past Core and Extras and it is merged into >> one. The next step shold be to clean up the above described mess that >> is doing harm to the Fedora users and the general community by >> creating confusion and eventually breaks your installation. So please >> guys keep up the good work, but do it together! > > There is some ongoing efforts on consolidating some of the popular > third party repositories. I guess they have been waiting to get off > the ground solidly before announcing their efforts. > > Keep in mind there is always going to be other third party > repositories for Fedora. Popular distributions tend to attract people > with different policies. A number of Fedora contributors have their > own repositories because they haven't had the time to work through > package reviews, licensing etc. There are tools like yum priorities > plugin which can help you deal with them if you really need to mix > these repositories. > > Rahul > This is good news and might shed some light on the current situation. Do you know if there is a timeframe or roadmap for this or if it still in the talks. The yum priorities plugin is a nice feature, but shouldn't been necessary in a perfect world (isn't that the direction of Linux? :) ) Other 3rd party repositories will arise and probably start another confusion in the future. In my opinion I just feel that it is a lot of waste with time and energy to package the same packages in different repositories by different people (as it is now) instead of mirroring it and dividing the workload. And if other 3rd party repositories arise they do not need to make their own version of the same packages already present in another repo, only add the packages that is unique. That way there can be no confusion. How about a large database where packagers can add their packages that they have in their repo with no dobblets allowed, everything working together? And most importantly the links to add the repos in yum. //Jonas From jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com Tue Jun 19 13:44:15 2007 From: jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com (Jonas Karlsson) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:44:15 +0200 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <4677DDAF.7020405@fxdev.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Jonas Karlsson wrote: > >> Ok back on track (3rd party repositories) It's way over time to have >> guys like livna, freshrpms, rpmforge and atrpms etc start a >> collective, collaborative and functional repository (for the greater >> good). There are many guys doing the same work that the other one >> already has done, and some times one repository does not work, the >> next time it's the other way around. Just start one big community 3rd >> party repository, define rules, let everyone contribute and mirror it. > > Which is exactly what they're doing, in fact. :) > > Talk to Thorsten Leemhuis to learn more about this effort, and how you > can help. > > --g > This is good news! //Jonas From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Jun 19 13:46:13 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:46:13 +0200 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> Jonas Karlsson wrote: > Hello all, > This is my first post to this list, hopefully some of you can agree to > what I'm writing. > > [...] But one thing that has always nagged at me is why do the Linux > community often have a hard time at working toghether. [...] Erhm, last time I saw people having a hard time working together, within moments they had signed a deal between the two of them resulting in one of them waving with coupons. > I (after all my years) still do have big troubble selecting a 3rd party > repository every time a new version of fedora comes around. How is that possible? I know there's easier things to do but this isn't at all that difficult. In fact, it is properly documented as well by the Fedora Unity project [1]. > Do I use > this or that with this version of fedora, which works best.. and help me > upstairs.. you have to choose because they are not campatible and might > break your system and kill all of your dependencies, shit!.. > And again, properly documented by the Fedora Unity project [1]. All the software you ever wanted, in- or outside the Fedora Universe, including directions on things to keep track of while you go and install it the first time. > Does this sound familiar? No? .. YES!!! > > This is year 2007 and the problematics above describes scenarios that > should have been gone many years ago.. [...] In fact it is a 'problem' that should not exist at all. 3rd party repositories should not need to exist for the distribution of proprietary or patented (eg. non-free) software if only all software was free. Fedora (or: Free Software) is exactly the solution to that problem. Side-note: Of course 3rd party repositories can have a different opinion on how stuff should be packaged or whether to allow the most bleeding edge stuff, etc... They'd not become completely obsolete in a free-software world. > > Ok back on track (3rd party repositories) It's way over time to have > guys like livna, freshrpms, rpmforge and atrpms etc start a collective, > collaborative and functional repository (for the greater good). Obviously, you're not the first to mention this. Apparently less obvious is that these guys do cooperate, and put aside some of their opinions and principles in order to do so. In addition, they put in extreme amounts of effort, too. Maybe even less obvious is that although there are reasons to not merge all 3rd party repositories together, they still make the effort. I mean they did initiate their own repositories for a reason, rather then joining some existent effort, right? Despite the history of things though (you could have known all this), they still make the effort of merging repositories. Not for their sake, but for yours. > > Now that we finally are past Core and Extras and it is merged into one. > The next step shold be to clean up the above described mess that is > doing harm to the Fedora users and the general community by creating > confusion and eventually breaks your installation. The problem is not that there is more then one add-on repository for Fedora. The problem is not that some of those repositories or packages within those repositories conflict with one another. The problem isn't that there is non-free software either. You calling this a mess however, that is what I call a serious problem. How dare you say anyone is doing users and the community any harm? I certainly hope you didn't really mean it that way. If anything, Fedora is about improving user experience with the Linux operating system, as long as it is Free and Open Source Software. If anything, we move forward on improving that very branch, too. There's lots of people putting in lots of effort working on that set of principles, for their own sake as well as yours. And because it's cool and challenging. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip [1] - Fedora Unity project: http://fedoraunity.org From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 19 14:18:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:48:57 +0530 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677DD54.2080008@fxdev.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677CED7.6070005@fedoraproject.org> <4677DD54.2080008@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <4677E5D1.4040606@fedoraproject.org> Jonas Karlsson wrote: >> > This is good news and might shed some light on the current situation. Do > you know if there is a timeframe or roadmap for this or if it still in > the talks. Still discussing things. I am deliberating not pointing you to the links respecting their choices to keep the effort more quiet although I don't necessarily think it should be private. > The yum priorities plugin is a nice feature, but shouldn't been > necessary in a perfect world (isn't that the direction of Linux? :) ) Perfect world doesnt exist. All we can do is find the best way to cope up with the imperfections. > How about a large database where packagers can add their packages that > they have in their repo with no dobblets allowed, everything working > together? And most importantly the links to add the repos in yum. Either the programs must respect ABI compatibility more and we can encourage a more decentralized systems or we need a centralized repository. A database of repositories is pick your poison method. If they are really not conflicting with each other they could just merge and skip the middle men. Rahul From jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com Tue Jun 19 14:21:12 2007 From: jonas.karlsson at fxdev.com (Jonas Karlsson) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:21:12 +0200 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <4677E658.3040506@fxdev.com> Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > How is that possible? I know there's easier things to do but this > isn't at all that difficult. In fact, it is properly documented as > well by the Fedora Unity project [1]. > And again, properly documented by the Fedora Unity project [1]. All > the software you ever wanted, in- or outside the Fedora Universe, > including directions on things to keep track of while you go and > install it the first time. > Thank you Fedora Unity for the work you are doing. I've read the Fedora Unity's guidelines. Remember I did use Fedora even before Unity existed so this problematics is not new news. But I think it is time to address them in public to get opinions. The Unity do describe the problematics and how to live with it, but that do not solve things at a higher level. The problems will still be there and we (the users) will need to work around them. > In fact it is a 'problem' that should not exist at all. 3rd party > repositories should not need to exist for the distribution of > proprietary or patented (eg. non-free) software if only all software > was free. Fedora (or: Free Software) is exactly the solution to that > problem. Side-note: Of course 3rd party repositories can have a > different opinion on how stuff should be packaged or whether to allow > the most bleeding edge stuff, etc... They'd not become completely > obsolete in a free-software world. > This will sidetrack to much to go into but I agree. > Obviously, you're not the first to mention this. Apparently less > obvious is that these guys do cooperate, and put aside some of their > opinions and principles in order to do so. In addition, they put in > extreme amounts of effort, too. Maybe even less obvious is that > although there are reasons to not merge all 3rd party repositories > together, they still make the effort. I mean they did initiate their > own repositories for a reason, rather then joining some existent > effort, right? Despite the history of things though (you could have > known all this), they still make the effort of merging repositories. > Not for their sake, but for yours. > The problem is not that there is more then one add-on repository for > Fedora. The problem is not that some of those repositories or packages > within those repositories conflict with one another. The problem isn't > that there is non-free software either. > > You calling this a mess however, that is what I call a serious > problem. How dare you say anyone is doing users and the community any > harm? I certainly hope you didn't really mean it that way. If > anything, Fedora is about improving user experience with the Linux > operating system, as long as it is Free and Open Source Software. If > anything, we move forward on improving that very branch, too. There's > lots of people putting in lots of effort working on that set of > principles, for their own sake as well as yours. And because it's cool > and challenging. > Yes I did call it a mess, when the result might be to reinstall your machine. But I stand corrected and beg forgivness for saying the word harm in an uncareful way if you feel hurt by it. I did mean it in both ways. Looking at a very very large picture it actually makes confusion become harm. Looking at a smaller picture it is all good. Remember to get Linux on everyones desktop will require almost no confusion at all (just look at the confusion all the many different distros make(which to choose for the regular windows guy)). The persons behind the 3rd party repositories are doing a tremendous work and are a big part of the community, and I do thank them for the blood sweat and tears going into it. Why this question has even been risen is because this is now way past a small operation. There are millions of people using using these 3rd party software repositories and when there are, I also think that it is fair to ask the questions I do ask, don't you? //Jonas From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Jun 19 14:32:03 2007 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:32:03 -0400 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677DD54.2080008@fxdev.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677CED7.6070005@fedoraproject.org> <4677DD54.2080008@fxdev.com> Message-ID: <200706191032.07108.jkeating@j2solutions.net> On Tuesday 19 June 2007 09:42:44 Jonas Karlsson wrote: > How about a large database where packagers can add their packages that > they have in their repo with no dobblets allowed, everything working > together? And most importantly the links to add the repos in yum. Having distributed repos is a bad idea. Buildroot inconsistancies or out of dateness, different source controls, no way for the community at large to assist in other 3rd party repos, no central control over when content goes out, no control over what content goes /into/ those repos (can't reference repos at all that carry illegal (to the US) content), etc... If the content really were compatible, they should just package it in Fedora and play in the big sandbox. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 19 14:43:20 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:13:20 +0530 Subject: Max Spevack's interview on LWN Message-ID: <4677EB88.6030509@fedoraproject.org> Hi "In what is surely one of the best interviews of the year, Fedora's Max Spevack talks to LWN about the just released Fedora 7, the upcoming changes in the project's development infrastructure, and the new features in Fedora 8: "We're looking at a far less ambitious Fedora 8. With so much new stuff in Fedora 7, we'd like to give all of our infrastructure changes a chance to settle in and get some polish, and also give some of the contributors who have been going non-stop on Fedora for the last few months a development cycle that is a bit less stressful. But that doesn't mean we don't have some things planned. The best thing for people who are interested in Fedora 8 to do is look at our Wiki, where we will be tracking potential features over the course of the release cycle." Don't miss it" http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070618#news Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Jun 19 13:25:03 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:25:03 -0500 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Rodrigo Padula wrote: > - FREE SOFTWARE DEFINITION - By Free Software Foundation ... > These firmwares below affect us directly, affect our freedom! software != firmware. The Board's current position is that firmware (that doesn't run on the host CPU) is a reasonable exception (to modifiability). It is our hope that once these ground-rules are established and well understood, hardware manufacturers will be more willing to produce/support high-quality linux drivers (preferably in the upstream kernel). -- Rex From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Jun 19 15:31:50 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:31:50 -0400 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? -- segment them in the RPM hierarchy (but that's all) In-Reply-To: References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <4676228C.80801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1182267110.4173.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2007-06-18 at 23:07 -0400, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > I think it is past due for Fedora to take at least a half-step and > segregate the non-free firmware into separate packages which can be > excluded at install time. > Doing so will not win Fedora any credit from the FSF, but it will do > nothing to harm the standing hardware compatibility and it will enable > those who care and who want to avoid that hardware to do so. > Increasing awareness is good for everyone. I'm not a big fan of these meta-discussions and debates. They sign-up developers with all sorts of non-sense that really doesn't do much for anyone. However, this is about the only statement I agree with in part. To refine it, I would state ... "Fedora's board should _consider_ mandating the segmentation of key, 100% redistributable, but non-free[dom] components into their own portion of the 3-tier RPM hierarchy. And if and when that mandate comes through, it's up to the board to set what release's development this will affect going forward." As far as adding an option to checkbox "exclude" all non-free[dom] components, I'll leave it to the Anaconda, YUM, et. al. maintainers to discuss the technical feasibility of such. Frankly, I think just segmenting those components into a Non-Free tier in the RPM hierarchy would do everything needed. Debian does this fairly well (although far from perfect). Since they are still 100% redistributable, that solves the indemnification issues, which should _always_ be the focus of Fedora IMPO. Things that aren't should be, for the same reason. > Really, I think it's quite unfortunate that the 'most free'/FSF > approved' distro is based on Ubuntu... a distribution which hasn't a > fraction of Fedora's commitment to freedom. .. but it is what it is. Some would and could take issue with certain aspects around the distro though. Others would argue Debian is just as good, and possibly even better in many regards. It all depends on the definition/context. But that just goes to my point, if people want to find something alleged "wrong" or "impure" around about any community endeavor, they will -- and utterly miss the real fact that there is a community that cares, despite the non-sense. As long as Fedora keeps its focus, as it has in the past, not only consumers but, more importantly, consumers with influence in major corporations continue to be able to deploy Fedora or even roll out Fedora-based solutions -- without any legal issues. That's unlike a lot of distros -- and the reason why Red Hat Linux (as well as Debian) have always been very popular. -- Bryan P.S. Congrats to the Fedora team for putting forth the efforts that have now allowed Red Hat to reach level 4 in the Common Criteria with RBAC and other capabilities. People have been lambasting SELinux, and Red Hat, for a long time. But it's the community efforts, like those in Fedora, that made it largely possible. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 19 15:39:15 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:09:15 +0530 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? -- segment them in the RPM hierarchy (but that's all) In-Reply-To: <1182267110.4173.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <4676228C.80801@fedoraproject.org> <1182267110.4173.48.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4677F8A3.7070607@fedoraproject.org> Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > As far as adding an option to checkbox "exclude" all non-free[dom] > components, I'll leave it to the Anaconda, YUM, et. al. maintainers to > discuss the technical feasibility of such. Frankly, I think just > segmenting those components into a Non-Free tier in the RPM hierarchy > would do everything needed. Debian does this fairly well (although far > from perfect). The line to draw is difficult to determine. Would that include documentation, fonts, images etc? > Since they are still 100% redistributable, that solves the > indemnification issues, which should _always_ be the focus of Fedora > IMPO. Things that aren't should be, for the same reason. Everything is 100% redistributable already and will always be. > P.S. Congrats to the Fedora team for putting forth the efforts that > have now allowed Red Hat to reach level 4 in the Common Criteria with > RBAC and other capabilities. People have been lambasting SELinux, and > Red Hat, for a long time. But it's the community efforts, like those in > Fedora, that made it largely possible. Absolutely. RHEL now has the highest possible security level certification that any operating system ever has got out of the box without the need for creating a separate fork. Without technologies like SELinux and the ability of a open community to merge these very disruptive changes fairly well that would be pretty much impossible. Rahul From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 21:46:40 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:46:40 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> Firmware IS SOFTWARE!! firmware = software The FSF considers firmware as software. If the firmware isnt free, the Fedora isnt FREE!! We can't change the firmware, then the firmware isn't FREE!! Where are the Infinite Freedom ? Freedom to change the Code, to change the firmware!! Please, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware "*firmware* is software" Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira www.projetofedora.org On 6/19/07, Rex Dieter wrote: > > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > > - FREE SOFTWARE DEFINITION - By Free Software Foundation > ... > > These firmwares below affect us directly, affect our freedom! > > software != firmware. > > The Board's current position is that firmware (that doesn't run on the > host > CPU) is a reasonable exception (to modifiability). It is our hope that > once these ground-rules are established and well understood, hardware > manufacturers will be more willing to produce/support high-quality linux > drivers (preferably in the upstream kernel). > > -- Rex > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Tue Jun 19 22:19:52 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:19:52 +0000 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com><3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I'll give you a "real world" example that binds companies. The US FCC, for regulator reasons, does *NOT* want WLAN cards to be reprogrammable to broadcast in other frequencies. This means that at least parts of *ALL* WLAN firmware these days is basically "closed" these days. >From Broadcom to Intel, this is the reality, sorry. This has been the case since the original Linux firmware tools were developed for the Intersil PRISM*1* cards. Furthermore, in many other cases, firmware is often *NOT* merely "source code." In many cases and significant portions, it's often pure machine code or other pure byte code, sometimes just binary data/values. Allowing users to tinker with this code leads to massive support issues (even beyond what they can already do with the loader already - which is a support issue). The Linux community has *NO* business dorking with the firmware logic othat drives the on-device intelligence. Linux only needs to know how to interface with the device, not how to change the device's internal logic. Anyone who knows the first thing about embedded or intelligent hardware device development knows this! It is *NOT* against the terms of the GPL license, and Linus himself has talked about this repeatedly. We're *NOT* talking about support functions in the Linux kernel itself (e.g., they are not the same as GPU memory functions, such as those from ATI or nVidia, that go in the kernel itself). It's gross ignorance and blanket statements like this that make us EEs and other hardware and device friver developers roll our eyes! Most of the time the "firmware update" option included in the kernel is just an "added option" in a kernel driver so you don't have to boot into DOS. The driver does *NOT* require it to function in Linux at all! Another example ... Linux talks to the uC/ASIC on a true hardware RAID card, like the PPC400 on the AMCC/3Ware products. The kernel has *NO* business changing how the on-board PPC400 uses it's memory and it's ATA channels. Linux *NEVER* communications directly to those components (except for DMA as setup by the PPC). So if you do *NOT* know the first thing of what I'm talking about, you have *NO* business talking about it from the standpoint of ignorance. Leave the legal debate to the sound, technically knowledgable developers who do. Otherwise, you're only going to mis-represent the issue - especially when it's often *NOT* a GPL issue either. -- Bryan *1*NOTE: I used to work with Mark Mathews and Brian Mathews at AVS. Brian Mathews (EE) helped develop the PRISM MAC hardware at Intersil. Mark Mathews (CS) developed the original tools for various PRISM functions, including firmware and other frequency support/modification. Many of these functions canNOT be open source because of FCC mandate. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Rodrigo Padula" Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:46:40 To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" Subject: Re: Infinite Freedom??? Firmware IS SOFTWARE!!

firmware = software

The FSF considers firmware as software.

If the firmware isnt free, the Fedora isnt FREE!!

We can't change the firmware, then the firmware isn't FREE!!

Where are the Infinite Freedom ? Freedom to change the Code, to change the firmware!!

Please, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware "firmware is software"


Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira
www.projetofedora.org

On 6/19/07, Rex Dieter <rdieter at math.unl.edu> wrote:
Rodrigo Padula wrote:

> - FREE SOFTWARE DEFINITION - By Free Software Foundation
...
> These firmwares below affect us directly, affect our freedom!

software != firmware.

The Board's current position is that firmware (that doesn't run on the host
CPU) is a reasonable exception (to modifiability).  It is our hope that
once these ground-rules are established and well understood, hardware
manufacturers will be more willing to produce/support high-quality linux
drivers (preferably in the upstream kernel).

-- Rex

--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list

-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 00:28:20 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:28:20 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> The question is not purely technique, is philosophical! The philosophy is the base of our work! If the Free Software Foundation says that the use of non free firmwares affect our freedom, us must take this in consideration when including this in the distribution. If the firmware isn't free or "modifiable", if we dont have this permission our freedom is not infinite, it is finite. I think that firmwares would not have to be distributed in fedora Medias (CDS, DVDS). We use the "Infinite Freedom" as slogan, we must follow the recommendations of the FSF, not including non free firmwares. Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira http://www.projetofedora.org On 6/19/07, Bryan J Smith wrote: > > I'll give you a "real world" example that binds companies. > > The US FCC, for regulator reasons, does *NOT* want WLAN cards to be > reprogrammable to broadcast in other frequencies. > This means that at least parts of *ALL* WLAN firmware these days is > basically "closed" these days. > >From Broadcom to Intel, this is the reality, sorry. > This has been the case since the original Linux firmware tools were > developed for the Intersil PRISM*1* cards. > > Furthermore, in many other cases, firmware is often *NOT* merely "source > code." > In many cases and significant portions, it's often pure machine code or > other pure byte code, sometimes just binary data/values. > Allowing users to tinker with this code leads to massive support issues > (even beyond what they can already do with the loader already - which is a > support issue). > > The Linux community has *NO* business dorking with the firmware logic > othat drives the on-device intelligence. > Linux only needs to know how to interface with the device, not how to > change the device's internal logic. > Anyone who knows the first thing about embedded or intelligent hardware > device development knows this! > > It is *NOT* against the terms of the GPL license, and Linus himself has > talked about this repeatedly. > We're *NOT* talking about support functions in the Linux kernel itself ( > e.g., they are not the same as GPU memory functions, such as those from > ATI or nVidia, that go in the kernel itself). > > It's gross ignorance and blanket statements like this that make us EEs and > other hardware and device friver developers roll our eyes! > > Most of the time the "firmware update" option included in the kernel is > just an "added option" in a kernel driver so you don't have to boot into > DOS. > The driver does *NOT* require it to function in Linux at all! > > Another example ... > > Linux talks to the uC/ASIC on a true hardware RAID card, like the PPC400 > on the AMCC/3Ware products. > The kernel has *NO* business changing how the on-board PPC400 uses it's > memory and it's ATA channels. > Linux *NEVER* communications directly to those components (except for DMA > as setup by the PPC). > > So if you do *NOT* know the first thing of what I'm talking about, you > have *NO* business talking about it from the standpoint of ignorance. > Leave the legal debate to the sound, technically knowledgable developers > who do. > Otherwise, you're only going to mis-represent the issue - especially when > it's often *NOT* a GPL issue either. > > -- Bryan > > *1*NOTE: I used to work with Mark Mathews and Brian Mathews at AVS. > Brian Mathews (EE) helped develop the PRISM MAC hardware at Intersil. > Mark Mathews (CS) developed the original tools for various PRISM > functions, including firmware and other frequency support/modification. > Many of these functions canNOT be open source because of FCC mandate. > > > -- > Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org > http://thebs413.blogspot.com > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Rodrigo Padula" > > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:46:40 > To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" < > fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com> > Subject: Re: Infinite Freedom??? > > > Firmware IS SOFTWARE!!

firmware = software

The FSF > considers firmware as software.

If the firmware isnt free, the Fedora > isnt FREE!!

We can't change the firmware, then the firmware > isn't FREE!! >

Where are the Infinite Freedom ? Freedom to change the Code, to > change the firmware!!

Please, read this > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware "firmware > is software"


Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira
www.projetofedora.org

class="gmail_quote">On 6/19/07, Rex Dieter > <rdieter at math.unl.edu> > wrote:
Rodrigo > Padula wrote: >

> - FREE SOFTWARE DEFINITION - By Free Software > Foundation
...
> These firmwares below affect us directly, affect > our freedom!

software != firmware.

The Board's current > position is that firmware (that doesn't run on the host >
CPU) is a reasonable exception (to modifiability).  It is > our hope that
once these ground-rules are established and well > understood, hardware
manufacturers will be more willing to > produce/support high-quality linux >
drivers (preferably in the upstream kernel).

-- > Rex

--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com
href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list"> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list >

> > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 20 00:42:44 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:12:44 +0530 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46787804.1080207@fedoraproject.org> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > We use the "Infinite Freedom" as slogan, we must follow the > recommendations of the FSF, > not including non free firmwares. Like I said FSF has endorsed several distributions which has such firmware in the kernel http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions We don't have any official slogans for Fedora either FYI. Our freedoms have always been finite. Rahul From sgk284 at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 00:45:29 2007 From: sgk284 at gmail.com (Stephen Krenzel) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:45:29 -0700 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa01fe80706191745x3cd4a617p84ce1fffb7bf27fa@mail.gmail.com> Hey Rodrigo, While your input and enthusiasm is appreciated and in the right spirit, I think in this instance you need to take a step back and realize the practicality (or lack thereof) of what you're suggesting. You've been told the current stance on the subject and given a good justification for why it is currently as such, so perhaps we shouldn't push the issue much further. Regards, Steve On 6/19/07, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > > The question is not purely technique, is philosophical! > > The philosophy is the base of our work! > > If the Free Software Foundation says that the use of non free firmwares > affect our freedom, us must take this in consideration when including this > in the distribution. > > If the firmware isn't free or "modifiable", if we dont have this > permission our freedom is not infinite, it is finite. > > I think that firmwares would not have to be distributed in fedora Medias > (CDS, DVDS). > > We use the "Infinite Freedom" as slogan, we must follow the > recommendations of the FSF, > not including non free firmwares. > > Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira > http://www.projetofedora.org > > On 6/19/07, Bryan J Smith wrote: > > > > I'll give you a "real world" example that binds companies. > > > > The US FCC, for regulator reasons, does *NOT* want WLAN cards to be > > reprogrammable to broadcast in other frequencies. > > This means that at least parts of *ALL* WLAN firmware these days is > > basically "closed" these days. > > >From Broadcom to Intel, this is the reality, sorry. > > This has been the case since the original Linux firmware tools were > > developed for the Intersil PRISM*1* cards. > > > > Furthermore, in many other cases, firmware is often *NOT* merely "source > > code." > > In many cases and significant portions, it's often pure machine code or > > other pure byte code, sometimes just binary data/values. > > Allowing users to tinker with this code leads to massive support issues > > (even beyond what they can already do with the loader already - which is a > > support issue). > > > > The Linux community has *NO* business dorking with the firmware logic > > othat drives the on-device intelligence. > > Linux only needs to know how to interface with the device, not how to > > change the device's internal logic. > > Anyone who knows the first thing about embedded or intelligent hardware > > device development knows this! > > > > It is *NOT* against the terms of the GPL license, and Linus himself has > > talked about this repeatedly. > > We're *NOT* talking about support functions in the Linux kernel itself ( > > e.g., they are not the same as GPU memory functions, such as those from > > ATI or nVidia, that go in the kernel itself). > > > > It's gross ignorance and blanket statements like this that make us EEs > > and other hardware and device friver developers roll our eyes! > > > > Most of the time the "firmware update" option included in the kernel is > > just an "added option" in a kernel driver so you don't have to boot into > > DOS. > > The driver does *NOT* require it to function in Linux at all! > > > > Another example ... > > > > Linux talks to the uC/ASIC on a true hardware RAID card, like the PPC400 > > on the AMCC/3Ware products. > > The kernel has *NO* business changing how the on-board PPC400 uses it's > > memory and it's ATA channels. > > Linux *NEVER* communications directly to those components (except for > > DMA as setup by the PPC). > > > > So if you do *NOT* know the first thing of what I'm talking about, you > > have *NO* business talking about it from the standpoint of ignorance. > > Leave the legal debate to the sound, technically knowledgable developers > > who do. > > Otherwise, you're only going to mis-represent the issue - especially > > when it's often *NOT* a GPL issue either. > > > > -- Bryan > > > > *1*NOTE: I used to work with Mark Mathews and Brian Mathews at AVS. > > Brian Mathews (EE) helped develop the PRISM MAC hardware at Intersil. > > Mark Mathews (CS) developed the original tools for various PRISM > > functions, including firmware and other frequency support/modification. > > Many of these functions canNOT be open source because of FCC mandate. > > > > > > -- > > Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org > > http://thebs413.blogspot.com > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Rodrigo Padula" > > > > Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:46:40 > > To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" > > > > Subject: Re: Infinite Freedom??? > > > > > > Firmware IS SOFTWARE!!

firmware = software

The FSF > > considers firmware as software.

If the firmware isnt free, the Fedora > > isnt FREE!!

We can't change the firmware, then the firmware > > isn't FREE!! > >

Where are the Infinite Freedom ? Freedom to change the Code, to > > change the firmware!!

Please, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware "firmware > > is software"


Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira
> href=" http://www.projetofedora.org">www.projetofedora.org

> class="gmail_quote">On 6/19/07, Rex Dieter > > <rdieter at math.unl.edu> > > wrote:
Rodrigo Padula wrote: > >

> - FREE SOFTWARE DEFINITION - By Free Software > > Foundation
...
> These firmwares below affect us directly, affect > > our freedom!

software != firmware.

The Board's current > > position is that firmware (that doesn't run on the host > >
CPU) is a reasonable exception (to modifiability).  It is > > our hope that
once these ground-rules are established and well > > understood, hardware
manufacturers will be more willing to > > produce/support high-quality linux > >
drivers (preferably in the upstream kernel).

-- > > Rex

--
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Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list

> > > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 02:50:49 2007 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:50:49 -0400 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <46787804.1080207@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <46787804.1080207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1182307849.3609.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 06:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > > We use the "Infinite Freedom" as slogan, we must follow the > > recommendations of the FSF, > > not including non free firmwares. > > Like I said FSF has endorsed several distributions which has such > firmware in the kernel > > http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions > > We don't have any official slogans for Fedora either FYI. Our freedoms > have always been finite. Exactly. For instance, you're not free to close the source if you redistribute the work. It would be great if contributors could continue to be as sensitive as possible to the danger in propagating unofficial slogans, as catchy as they might sound. Misunderstandings can often result. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Jun 20 02:40:11 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 02:40:11 +0000 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <46787804.1080207@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com><46787804.1080207@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1527065939-1182307224-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636739552-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Sigh. I'm tired of the gross ignorance on this subject. Furthermore, there are different types of "firmwares." Most are not only GPL compatible "bundlings," but 100% redistributable and compatible with Fedora's guidelines too. I deploy AMCC/3Ware true hardware RAID cards. 3Ware bundles firmware updates in its drivers. Before they did this, one had to boot DOS or Windows to update firmware. 3Ware's Escalade series was the first ATA RAID card to have a full GPL driver (in 2.2.15+). The Linux kernel doesn't use the firmware at all, it's for the on-board PPC400 of the hardware RAID card! So unless Fedora starts bundling a _full GCC _cross-compiler_ and related toolchain for a PPC4xx target (that'll add a few hundred MBs), one can_not_ build the firmware "from source" on a Fedora distro anyway! Same goes for many other "intelligent" firmware - even down to the on-board Intelligent Drive Electronics (IDE) of ATA/ATAPI devices (should hard drive/optical vendors ever start offering to bundle their firmware updates - especially for ATAPI DVD drives). After a few ARMs and other microcontrollers, you'd be talking a few GBs of toolchains! For those that disagree, are *YOU* going to maintain those? If not, who? Does Red Hat buy Montavista or TimeSys or some other company and basically _dedicate_ them to maintaining these toolchains? And who does the Q&A when the driver won't build because there's slight toolchain differences in various sev setups? Case-in-point: For those that are still against it, do you even _remotely_understand_ what I'm talking about? In not, don't try to say or otherwise promote what you think the FSF is saying. Don't bother to argue against what you don't understand. This issue is for kernel developers and their copyrights, companies and their hardware products, and countless other developers. Linus have repeatedly gone on record what is defined as a "derived work" of Linux as well as "bundled software" even outside of that. If the firmware works, unmodified, on another OS, it's not derived from Linux. If the firmware is not required for operation, then it's bundled. Hell, even the GPL has exceptions for basic hardware firmware. Otherwise the PC BIOS, Intel EFI and other components would have to be GPL. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Rahul Sundaram Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:12:44 To:For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Cc:b.j.smith at ieee.org Subject: Re: Infinite Freedom??? Rodrigo Padula wrote: > We use the "Infinite Freedom" as slogan, we must follow the > recommendations of the FSF, > not including non free firmwares. Like I said FSF has endorsed several distributions which has such firmware in the kernel http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions We don't have any official slogans for Fedora either FYI. Our freedoms have always been finite. Rahul From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 04:06:05 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:06:05 -0400 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > If the Free Software Foundation says that the use of non free firmwares > affect our freedom, us must take this in consideration when including this > in the distribution. We did. > If the firmware isn't free or "modifiable", if we dont have this permission > our freedom is not infinite, it is finite. ...says the person behind a gmail.com address. Please go complain to google, too. > I think that firmwares would not have to be distributed in fedora Medias > (CDS, DVDS). Thanks for your opinion. We disagree. From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Jun 20 16:09:35 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:09:35 +0200 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com><3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4679513F.9020007@kanarip.com> Bryan J Smith wrote: > [...] +1, *applause* Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 16:58:28 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:28 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Ok!!!! Reading the answers i see how the VOICE of the community is heard and is "very important" in the project! On 6/20/07, Christopher Aillon wrote: > > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > If the Free Software Foundation says that the use of non free firmwares > > affect our freedom, us must take this in consideration when including > this > > in the distribution. > > We did. > > > If the firmware isn't free or "modifiable", if we dont have this > permission > > our freedom is not infinite, it is finite. > > ...says the person behind a gmail.com address. Please go complain to > google, too. I had problens with my mail server projetofedora.org > I think that firmwares would not have to be distributed in fedora Medias > > (CDS, DVDS). > > Thanks for your opinion. We disagree. The FSF disagree of you! Ok!! Thanks! Fedora FINITE FREEDOM! "Voice of community" Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira http://www.projetofedora.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Jun 20 16:38:10 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:38:10 +0000 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <4679513F.9020007@kanarip.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com><3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4679513F.9020007@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <76019033-1182357503-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1339436451-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I tried to be nice in my first response, making a suggestion for consideration by the board. Technical feasibility, after redistribution and related indemnification issues, is the priority before we put philosophy in front of simple, GPL compatible bundling. But after that, and I have to apologize for sometimes being "blunt" in my use of the word "ignorant," I sometimes like (too much) to be that "outsider" (non-Red Hat employee, non-Fedora participant, nor any other "stakeholder") that just tells it that way. Which drove my 2nd/3rd posts, especially when someone tries to tell me - an unmentionable, mediocre EE and otherwise insigniciant embedded developer, but still someone who is remotely knowlegeable of microcontroller/ASIC programming and toolchains - what exactly the "absolute" or, worse yet, "assumed" stance of the FSF is on this. We're not talking about drivers and code like ATI's and nVidia's memory management to do software (I.e., Linux kernel) based GPU-CPU coherency (at least on Intel bus/single point of contention interconnects without on CPU-GPU I/O MMUs, something Intel itself won't GPL either and leaves out of their i8xx/9xx series kernel suppoert much to the piss-poor performance of their Linux GLX v. Windows ICD - all while holding the IP that prevents ATI/nVidia from opening theirs - nVidia did a partial code release back in 2.2 for XFree86 3.3 to no joy of Intel lawyers). And we're not talking about the drivers for software that Linux uses to drive the device itself. We're either talking about the on-hardware (system-updated) or shared memory (system-hosted) byte code that drives non-x86/host-platform microcontroller/ASICs. Things that won't build with the binutils, GCC and other "toolchain" components in virtually any distro (ansd variations in peripherals in various core-based instances will still differ for the "base" toolchain of any target for various hardware). So, again, if you're not following these concepts, it's best if you make no assumptions. Especially when the complexities of the arguments differ enough, but are often still allowed by the GPL or Linus' (among others) clear, legal-based statements on copyrights. There are bigger and better targets to point your finger at, which are actual GPL issues in the kernel. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Jeroen van Meeuwen Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:09:35 To:b.j.smith at ieee.org, For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: Infinite Freedom??? Bryan J Smith wrote: > [...] +1, *applause* Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 17:42:50 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:42:50 -0400 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4679671A.7020109@redhat.com> Rodrigo Padula wrote: >> I think that firmwares would not have to be distributed in fedora Medias >> > (CDS, DVDS). >> >> Thanks for your opinion. We disagree. > > > The FSF disagree of you! Do you represent the FSF? If not, please don't make such strong statements on their behalf. We agree with the FSF principles of freedom. We _also_ have a stance that firmware required to make hardware run is part of the hardware, even if not physically attached to the hardware. There are many reasons for this. Bryan explained it very clearly. For yet another example, the Cisco Aironet card has one of the best supported wireless drivers in the kernel. However, it requires firmware on the card to perform its wireless functions. It comes pre-loaded on the card so you are set and don't need to do anything to use it. However, if you want to update your firmware, you need to load up a closed-source application that AFAIK only works under Windows. With the Cisco card, you aren't required to have a "binary blob" on your computer but you can never update your firmware without booting into Windows and using a closed source application. Does that sound like more freedom to you? It really doesn't to me. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Jun 20 18:34:15 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:34:15 -0500 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com><3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4679513F.9020007@kanarip.com> <76019033-1182357503-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1339436451-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Bryan J Smith wrote: > I tried to be nice in my first response, making a suggestion for > consideration by the board. Technical feasibility, after redistribution > and related indemnification issues, is the priority before we put > philosophy in front of simple, GPL compatible bundling. An absolutely reasonable suggestion. As a matter of fact, the Board considered that initially, but opted not to separate this content over concerns of simply not identifying any significant justification/payoff (and not having the time to implement in time for F7 either). -- Rex From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 18:58:39 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Ok!!!! > > Reading the answers i see how the VOICE of the community is heard and is > "very important" in the project! Rodrigo, With all due respect, I think you're being a bit melodramatic. In the end, every project must come up with their own set of "official" policies. No one will *ever* agree with all of them. But remember this: one of the the biggest reasons for opening ALL of the production tools for F7 was to make it *as easy as possible* for people who disagree with the "official" policy to build their own versions of Fedora. What does this mean? It means that you, Rodrigo, can build your own version of Fedora that *does not* include the pieces to which you object. And if you submit this version for board approval as an "official" Fedora release, I'm pretty sure you'd get it. But you have to do the work of maintaining it... and you have to deal with the complaints when other people don't agree with *your* policies. :) --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 19:09:38 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:09:38 -0700 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 13:58 -0300, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Ok!!!! > > Reading the answers i see how the VOICE of the community is heard and > is "very important" in the project! Obviously the voice of the community is very important to Fedora. Do you agree? Or is the above a bit of sarcasm? If so, I'm sure we'd all like to hear how you feel the voice of the community is treated in Fedora. In this case, members of the same community as you have spoken up and explained the reasons why things are as they are. Thanks, folks. I trust these community voices more than I do Wikipedia. > The FSF disagree of you! I think it was pointed out a few times in this thread that it is not entirely clear what the FSF agrees to. We are all constantly in murky waters, trying to see together the right direction to swim. This includes the FSF. They are not dieties, not even Enlightened. They just have a nice, bright, clear light that helps us see the way. But it is not the only light, nor always the best one to pay attention to when swimming. - Karsten, hoping his swimming metaphor didn't lose any non-native speakers > -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 19:15:25 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:15:25 -0700 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1182366925.21966.507.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 14:58 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > And if you submit this version for board approval as an "official" Fedora > release, I'm pretty sure you'd get it. Who should actually approve different spins as being "Formally Fedora"? /me likes the audio pun in that title, and it is more accurate than the abused word 'official' I'll be honest -- I don't mind that there be a Board rubber stamp [Formally Fedora Spin], but it needs to be just that -- a rubber stamp approval on top of a recommendation from a group of people who can actually vet the individual distro. Perhaps I see a flood of such requests. Perhaps I personally fear the work of figuring out how to automate the testing of such requests. Based on the new understanding of the Board's role, shouldn't it be the Board says, "Fedora needs to formally recognize new community-sourced spins that are within Fedora guidelines," and FESCo makes it so? Presumably by firing up a SIG, modifying some build sys magic, and so forth. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Jun 20 18:40:12 2007 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:40:12 -0500 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Ok!!!! > > Reading the answers i see how the VOICE of the community is heard and is > "very important" in the project! Rodrigo, Actually... I'd like to thank you for speaking up, especially about something you are clearly passionate about. Just because not everyone agrees with you 100% doesn't mean that you aren't being heard. Please, keep up the good work (and the good fight)! -- Rex From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 19:10:51 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:10:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > But remember this: one of the the biggest reasons for opening ALL of the > production tools for F7 was to make it *as easy as possible* for people who > disagree with the "official" policy to build their own versions of Fedora. > > What does this mean? It means that you, Rodrigo, can build your own version > of Fedora that *does not* include the pieces to which you object. And if you > submit this version for board approval as an "official" Fedora release, I'm > pretty sure you'd get it. > > But you have to do the work of maintaining it... and you have to deal with > the complaints when other people don't agree with *your* policies. :) In fact... and sorry to expand on my own point... This is, in fact, an *extremely important freedom* that we're talking about here. I've been in the Fedora leadership for a long time now, and we've made decisions that even *I* disagree with. For what it's worth, I will *encourage* people to make their own versions of Fedora that adhere to *their* standards of what Fedora should and shouldn't be. And we let the Marketplace of Users decide. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 19:13:23 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <1182366925.21966.507.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366925.21966.507.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 14:58 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > >> And if you submit this version for board approval as an "official" Fedora >> release, I'm pretty sure you'd get it. > > Who should actually approve different spins as being "Formally Fedora"? The Board. And if it turns out to be more than The Board can handle, then The Board, in their Infinite Wisdom, can figure out a Better Way To Do It. > Based on the new understanding of the Board's role, shouldn't it be the > Board says, "Fedora needs to formally recognize new community-sourced > spins that are within Fedora guidelines," and FESCo makes it so? > Presumably by firing up a SIG, modifying some build sys magic, and so > forth. If The Board wants to delegate that authority to FESCo, so be it. But it seems that these decisions live more in the world of policy than in technology. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Jun 20 19:27:14 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:27:14 +0200 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <1182366925.21966.507.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366925.21966.507.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <46797F92.7050503@kanarip.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 14:58 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > >> And if you submit this version for board approval as an "official" Fedora >> release, I'm pretty sure you'd get it. > > Who should actually approve different spins as being "Formally Fedora"? > > /me likes the audio pun in that title, and it is more accurate than the > abused word 'official' > > I'll be honest -- I don't mind that there be a Board rubber stamp > [Formally Fedora Spin], but it needs to be just that -- a rubber stamp > approval on top of a recommendation from a group of people who can > actually vet the individual distro. > > Perhaps I see a flood of such requests. Perhaps I personally fear the > work of figuring out how to automate the testing of such requests. > > Based on the new understanding of the Board's role, shouldn't it be the > Board says, "Fedora needs to formally recognize new community-sourced > spins that are within Fedora guidelines," and FESCo makes it so? > Presumably by firing up a SIG, modifying some build sys magic, and so > forth. > > - Karsten > This is not a bad idea at all. I'd gladly volunteer for such a SIG. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 19:31:21 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:31:21 -0700 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1182367881.21966.517.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 15:46 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > In fact it is a 'problem' that should not exist at all. 3rd party > repositories should not need to exist for the distribution of > proprietary or patented (eg. non-free) software if only all software was > free. Fedora (or: Free Software) is exactly the solution to that > problem. Side-note: Of course 3rd party repositories can have a > different opinion on how stuff should be packaged or whether to allow > the most bleeding edge stuff, etc... They'd not become completely > obsolete in a free-software world. This is actually the real center of the discussion, if we realize it or not. There are practical reasons why to have >1 repo: * Want to package different versions * Stability v. latest/greatest * Personal, technical, social, political, legal reasons to package differently * Personal, technical, social, political, legal reasons to what can be included in the same repo * Don't control everyone And to me, the last is the most important. There is a reason we have a mix of personality types in a tribe. For the purposes of this, we'll call all of humanity one big tribe. Personality types evolved to support the tribe in different ways. It is necessary to have a large percentage of people be happy to remain settled -- otherwise, no one would stop long enough to build a house/town, farm the land, and have more babies. Throughout those people, many minds break the mold and look ahead -- from them come progress, inventions, first thoughts and beautiful poems, all the things that make the drudgery worth living. A small but notable percentage *must* hack new paths into the wilderness -- we need the stories and benefits gained from breaking new ground never even thought of before. A simple metaphor is, "Trail blazers hack the paths, pioneers move there first, settlers make it worth coming back to." When you have created a package repo that can support all those personality types, then you have a model for Utopia. - Karsten, pioneer with a machete -- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 19:33:31 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:33:31 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/07, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 13:58 -0300, Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > Ok!!!! > > > > Reading the answers i see how the VOICE of the community is heard and > > is "very important" in the project! > > Obviously the voice of the community is very important to Fedora. Do > you agree? Or is the above a bit of sarcasm? If so, I'm sure we'd all > like to hear how you feel the voice of the community is treated in > Fedora. I Agree!! I'm a brazilian voice, with bad english here! hehehe In this case, members of the same community as you have spoken up and > explained the reasons why things are as they are. Thanks, folks. I > trust these community voices more than I do Wikipedia. > > > The FSF disagree of you! > > I think it was pointed out a few times in this thread that it is not > entirely clear what the FSF agrees to. > > We are all constantly in murky waters, trying to see together the right > direction to swim. This includes the FSF. They are not dieties, not > even Enlightened. They just have a nice, bright, clear light that helps > us see the way. But it is not the only light, nor always the best one > to pay attention to when swimming. > > - Karsten, hoping his swimming metaphor didn't lose any non-native > speakers > > Thinking in Fedora 8, what will be made in this direction ?? It would be very interesting if firmwares was isolated in optional packages(intel wi-fi drivers and firmwares), becoming the images of fedora 100% free. Or, why not a Fedora Spin 100% Free ? My $0,02 Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira Brazilian Fedora Ambassador www.projetofedora.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 19:37:20 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:37:20 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3668180e0706201237v3ff751a4icd370089f609be8c@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/07, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > > But remember this: one of the the biggest reasons for opening ALL of the > > production tools for F7 was to make it *as easy as possible* for people > who > > disagree with the "official" policy to build their own versions of > Fedora. > > > > What does this mean? It means that you, Rodrigo, can build your own > version > > of Fedora that *does not* include the pieces to which you object. And if > you > > submit this version for board approval as an "official" Fedora release, > I'm > > pretty sure you'd get it. > > > > But you have to do the work of maintaining it... and you have to deal > with > > the complaints when other people don't agree with *your* policies. :) > > In fact... and sorry to expand on my own point... > > This is, in fact, an *extremely important freedom* that we're talking > about here. I've been in the Fedora leadership for a long time now, and > we've made decisions that even *I* disagree with. > > For what it's worth, I will *encourage* people to make their own versions > of Fedora that adhere to *their* standards of what Fedora should and > shouldn't be. And we let the Marketplace of Users decide. > > I am thinking about this. Create one Brazilian spin ! Thanks to all for the attention! Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira www.projetofedora.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 20 19:38:51 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:08:51 +0530 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Thinking in Fedora 8, what will be made in this direction ?? > It would be very interesting if firmwares was isolated in optional > packages(intel wi-fi drivers and firmwares), becoming the images of > fedora 100% free. > > Or, why not a Fedora Spin 100% Free ? Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% Free? It is just software or do you want to remove content which isn't modifiable including documentation, fonts, images etc. Note that Fedora has trademarked content which aren't modifiable either. Rahul From luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com Wed Jun 20 19:45:59 2007 From: luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:45:59 -0700 Subject: Linux.org: The Fedora 7 Year Itch Message-ID: <467983F7.2050003@thefinalzone.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 " A while back, after publishing a review praising a past version of Fedora Core, I was chided by a reader who objected to my referring to it as 'beta' software. In my mind, it was always understood that the Fedora project was the test bed for Red Hat Enterprise Linux , but with the latest versions, the project has been trying to get away from Fedora's being identified with the word 'beta'. Well, I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that I think Fedora 7 is clearly back to beta." http://www.linux.org/dist/reviews/fedora7.html Food for thought: Any operating system is in beta stage because they will never be complete. Luya -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGeYP1a10Jb0NOz+ERAn6uAJ9uf62Mysz5N3AkJcV2azPKBPXnNQCffOCV KqlSxFwAl3CUWRRYRWRRQ7c= =1MO7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Jun 20 19:52:05 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:52:05 +0200 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706201237v3ff751a4icd370089f609be8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706201237v3ff751a4icd370089f609be8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46798565.6000509@kanarip.com> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > On 6/20/07, *Greg Dekoenigsberg* For what it's worth, I will *encourage* people to make their own > versions > of Fedora that adhere to *their* standards of what Fedora should and > shouldn't be. And we let the Marketplace of Users decide. > > > I am thinking about this. Create one Brazilian spin ! > So, while you're thinking, you may come up with some questions. Don't hesitate and ask, drop me an off-list message or something. I'll be glad to help you do a localized, brazilian "100% Free Fedora" spin including the Live media. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 20 19:43:00 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Or, why not a Fedora Spin 100% Free ? > > Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% Free? > It is just software or do you want to remove content which isn't modifiable > including documentation, fonts, images etc. > > Note that Fedora has trademarked content which aren't modifiable either. Unless you make a spin that doesn't have that trademarked content, of course. Which is also (a) possible and (b) encouraged. We still haven't figured out what exact language we should be using to describe the relationship between Fedora and such a distribution -- but I'd like to see some test cases to help us figure it out. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Jun 20 19:53:32 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:53:32 +0200 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <467985BC.1000508@kanarip.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > >> Thinking in Fedora 8, what will be made in this direction ?? >> It would be very interesting if firmwares was isolated in optional >> packages(intel wi-fi drivers and firmwares), becoming the images of >> fedora 100% free. >> >> Or, why not a Fedora Spin 100% Free ? > > Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% > Free? It is just software or do you want to remove content which isn't > modifiable including documentation, fonts, images etc. > > Note that Fedora has trademarked content which aren't modifiable either. > Sounds like nothing more then a use case to me ;-) Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 19:54:42 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 16:54:42 -0300 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3668180e0706201254g2e95ff0fsfe0dd5b176b3b2d5@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > > Thinking in Fedora 8, what will be made in this direction ?? > > It would be very interesting if firmwares was isolated in optional > > packages(intel wi-fi drivers and firmwares), becoming the images of > > fedora 100% free. > > > > Or, why not a Fedora Spin 100% Free ? > > Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% > Free? It is just software or do you want to remove content which isn't > modifiable including documentation, fonts, images etc. > > Note that Fedora has trademarked content which aren't modifiable either. > > Rahul Remove non free firmwares from fedora packages and kernel! But it's only a idea! I have many extra work organizing Brazilian Fedora Project, spreading fedora, presenting lectures and events around Brazil, helping members of the Latin America countries, attending Brazilian Free Media Project and enlisting local collaborators! I have worked to make fedora one of the used linux distributions in Brazil. Here, we have big cases of use of Fedora. - Universities (Hundreds servers and workstations with fedora core 4,5,6) - Brazilian Armys (Hundreds servers and workstations with fedora core 5,6) - SERPRO (More than 8.000 workstations with fedora core 5, 6) - Hosting/Access/Mail Servers ( UAI ESTADO DE MINAS - 150 fedora servers) and many others.... The fedora is a great success here in Brazil, us has made a great work here! Thanks!!! Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Wed Jun 20 18:10:25 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:10:25 +0000 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? - the self-fulfilling prophecy of majority In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com><3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com><1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com><4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com><3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58348631-1182363039-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1806416493-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I'm going to shut-up after this. The voice of the community has a tendency to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's based on majority thought, which is fine for freedom and other social constructs, but not in technical and legal application. I.e., it quickly becomes a prophecy and religion based on the sheer majority over engineers and lawyers. And that can quickly and grossly proliferated by the community, often by even quasi-professionals (e.g., paralegals, not lawyers, including Groklaw most of the time, technicians, not technologists and engineers, etc...). As an example ... Unlike most people, who grew up on GNU/Linux in the mid-'90s doing web servers, I grew up developing on GNU/Linux - coming from GNU/Solaris host, GNU/VxWorks targets (in addition to Linux NIS, LDAP, Kerberos, Samba, NFS, AFS deployments before the "single-sign-on" buzzword came about). Now what did I use those things for? I worked on evolutionary defense systems that replaced and improved upon already existing systems." These new systems - strategically referred to as TMD - were PAC-3 and THAAD, which use HTK, which neutralize targets an order of magnitude better than proximity-fuse. Some of you may not know what those acronyms stand for, and I purposely did that for a reason. Because as long as I don't define those acronyms, and you don't know them, you don't have your 0-technical-based opinion. But the second I define those acronyms into Patriot Advanced Capability (PAC-3), Theater High Altitude Air Defense (THAAD) and Hit-to-Kill (HTK), I'll start getting opinions like ... - I heard hit-to-kill doesn't work - I heard Patriot never hit a single SCUD in the first Iraq war And if I further define their collective, strategic name - even though they are just advanced Surface to Air Missile (SAM) systems for shooting down aircraft., cruise missiles and other airborne targets, They are also capable of "last resort" Theater Missile Defense (TMD), I get all sorts of non-sense like: - The US wants to start a new cold war - The US is threatening the Russians and upsetting the balance in Europe - The US is violating the ABM treaty, etc... Even before the general W. or US bashing begins. I mean, I didn't even vote for W. and TMD was developed during, and the R&D funded by (including my paycheck), by the Clinton administration. But because people heard "missile defense" - like they do firmware - the go bonkers with 0 technical knowledge, Now I can't even begin to explain such technical things as ... - How TMD is the natural evolution of air defense and just a more capable SAM system of equal size - PAC-3/THAAD interceptors and their attributes don't even cross into the velocities of what the ABM treaty covers - TMD systems are merely improved, mobile interceptor and sensory (radar) systems of what is already deployed by NATO in Europe - And why we developed HTK, because Patriot did actually intercept, but it's proximity fuse would not neutralize And that's before we get to the fact that I was one of the engineering schmucks on the target systems, doing telemetry and other things I'm talking about, to verify PAC-3/THAAD intercept and effectiveness. I'm the guy that had to go home at night and here the blatantly incorrect statements from the media. I mean, ever wonder why NATO has or is deploying PAC-3 and THAAD (or Japan and Korea for that matter)? Ever wonder why *NOT* one single US engineer has ever "whistle-blown" that HTK and TMD doesn't work? Have you ever wondered what the *REAL*, technical details *ARE* of general air-space defense, and why it's not so "unnatural" to be able to obliterate and shred anything that flies through it? Same deal for "firmware"!!! It's funny, NASA (of which I've worked on the USAF portions, which I can't talk about), calls "hit-to-kill" something different. It's called "docking." Sure, it looks nice and slow on TV - but you don't get to see the closure prior to that at Mach 24. With TMD, we're talking sub-orbital and half to one-third that speed - we just do it in real-time today. Ignorance goes quite far with the majority, let alone people call me "biased" on firmware because I worked on "missile defense." Just like many non-developers complain I'm "biased" because I work for a client that selfishly sells, what appears to them to be an overpriced, $10,000 VoIP phone. And, therefore, I should have no say, since these people are obvious "less biased" as myself, and I'm just being "arrogant" when I say they have to be knowlegable and experienced in the filed to understand (I don't really care whether they have an EE degree or not, but experienced, yes). Now don't get me (or anyone in the IEEE for that matter), started on electric or fuel-cell (hydrogen) cars in the US. I mean, I've literally had someone saying they can "chuck big oil, coal, fossil fuels, etc..." and "save the planet" once they buy a new Honda fuel-cell vehicle and the home, hydrogen electolysis unit. Being the "dumber than them" electrical engineer I am, I can't help but ask them, "where do you get that electricity to drive than unit, and how much and what energies do you think are used to generate it?" Of course, that just gets me into another debate where I'm talking about real power systems and the need to renovate and really, feasinbly "clean" the US power grid (as you'll find 180,000 IEEE-USA members screaming for in every other Spectrum magazine), all while the other person, who I've stupidly tried to educate, screams at me about the tangable "renewable energies" that we stupid engineers won't design and build. Sorry for the tangent. It's just the story of those with the background and experience to deliver real solutions from those who "know better than us" and think we're wrong, let alone arrogant, when we tell them we're working on a feasible solution, but they won't stop to remotely understand it. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Rodrigo Padula" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:28 To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" Subject: Re: Infinite Freedom??? Ok!!!!

Reading the answers i see how the VOICE of the community is heard and is "very important" in the project!


On 6/20/07, Christopher Aillon <caillon at redhat.com> wrote:
Rodrigo Padula wrote:
> If the Free Software Foundation says that the use of non free firmwares
> affect our freedom, us must take this in consideration when including this
> in the distribution.

We did.

> If the firmware isn't free or "modifiable", if we dont have this permission
> our freedom is not infinite, it is finite.

...says the person behind a gmail.com address.  Please go complain to
google, too.

I had problens with my mail server projetofedora.org

> I think that firmwares would not have to be distributed in fedora Medias
> (CDS, DVDS).

Thanks for your opinion.  We disagree.

The FSF disagree of you!

Ok!! Thanks!

Fedora FINITE FREEDOM!  "Voice of community"

Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira
http://www.projetofedora.org
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 20 19:59:59 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:29:59 +0530 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706201254g2e95ff0fsfe0dd5b176b3b2d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706172147t1217181dmb87018115df1a5dd@mail.gmail.com> <3668180e0706191446o14d69a55uec78dfcc444a17fa@mail.gmail.com> <1212494086-1182291603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-751949991-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <3668180e0706191728t1527ad2dpac4450ddb4dd3408@mail.gmail.com> <4678A7AD.5070500@redhat.com> <3668180e0706200958w5c779d1dj58e36f921d71ab9b@mail.gmail.com> <1182366578.21966.501.camel@erato.phig.org> <3668180e0706201233x127a6a8dw1968e38c683de590@mail.gmail.com> <4679824B.2000702@fedoraproject.org> <3668180e0706201254g2e95ff0fsfe0dd5b176b3b2d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4679873F.4000801@fedoraproject.org> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > On 6/20/07, *Rahul Sundaram* > wrote: > > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > > Thinking in Fedora 8, what will be made in this direction ?? > > It would be very interesting if firmwares was isolated in optional > > packages(intel wi-fi drivers and firmwares), becoming the images of > > fedora 100% free. > > > > Or, why not a Fedora Spin 100% Free ? > > Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% > Free? It is just software or do you want to remove content which isn't > modifiable including documentation, fonts, images etc. > > Note that Fedora has trademarked content which aren't modifiable either. > > Rahul > > > Remove non free firmwares from fedora packages and kernel! Removing firmware outside of the kernel is easy. Removing kernel in the firmware is going to be difficult but you or whoever wants to drive such a effort can probably get in touch with gNewSense folks to coordinate the effort. If there is a real need for it someone should step up to it. Let's see if that happens. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 20 20:03:24 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:33:24 +0530 Subject: Linux.org: The Fedora 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <467983F7.2050003@thefinalzone.com> References: <467983F7.2050003@thefinalzone.com> Message-ID: <4679880C.4050800@fedoraproject.org> Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > " A while back, after publishing a review praising a past version of > Fedora Core, I was chided by a reader who objected to my referring to > it as 'beta' software. In my mind, it was always understood that the > Fedora project was the test bed for Red Hat Enterprise Linux > , but with the > latest versions, the project has been trying to get away from Fedora's > being identified with the word 'beta'. Well, I'm afraid I'm going to > have to say that I think Fedora 7 is clearly back to beta." > > http://www.linux.org/dist/reviews/fedora7.html > > > Food for thought: Any operating system is in beta stage because they > will never be complete. A cursor glance suggests half a dozen oversights or mistakes in the review. I will probably write a response when I find time. Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Jun 21 00:23:53 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:23:53 -0400 Subject: Infinite Freedom??? -- More Insignificant Wisdom ... Message-ID: <1182385433.3743.52.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> Now that I'm away from my Crackberry ... More Insignificant Wisdom ... On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 13:34 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > An absolutely reasonable suggestion. As a matter of fact, the Board > considered that initially, but opted not to separate this content over > concerns of simply not identifying any significant justification/payoff > (and not having the time to implement in time for F7 either). First off, by "suggestion," I merely meant, "okay, if this is what is to happen, here's one way it should happen." Not that I necessarily agree. Secondly, why doesn't this not surprise me that the Board already considered it? Everytime I make a suggestion, as a counter "due process" to what I consider to be -- oh, how can I put this, an "inconsiderate demand" -- it seems the Fedora Project already thought of it. Wow! Now does that mean I understand things, Fedora, etc...??? Is it that maybe my "screwed up" values are similar??? Hmmm, I won't think too long on that. Or maybe, just maybe, the Fedora Board is "Being Bryan Smith." ;) Oh yeah, no ego there (BTW, that's trademarked! Royalties bay-bee!) On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 01:29 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Removing firmware outside of the kernel is easy. Removing kernel in the > firmware is going to be difficult but you or whoever wants to drive such > a effort can probably get in touch with gNewSense folks to coordinate > the effort. If there is a real need for it someone should step up to it. > Let's see if that happens. At what point does this really cross into the kernel space? Or even beyond that, at what point does this cross into someone stepping forward -- outside of Fedora (even if they work on Fedora, for Red Hat, etc...)? A generic facility for user-space loading, update, initrd, etc... would be a nice facility, although I'm not sure it would be entirely feasible. But it would and could, possibly, address some issues. But one thing is for sure, I don't see this being an endeavor for Fedora at all -- at least not a consideration for the distribution. It's really a larger detail to be tackled outside of distribution tools themselves -- especially at the kernel level. Unfortunately, the "screaming experts" tend to cause this stuff to be non-PC, regardless of the legal and GPL compatible bundling or other details it may be. Not sure I want to touch this any further. On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 01:08 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% > Free? What the FSF does you fool! ;-> Seriously now, I don't know or think subjective -- or even if truly objective -- suggestions can and should be made outside of not just merely the Fedora board, but outside of many, community associations. And that includes maybe including this other entity ... like the FSF itself. ;-> What facilities, forums, etc... can Fedora advocates and/or contributors tap to get this discussion rolling? Especially in a more open, and probably more technical arena, to solve the real considerations that some people will have. I mean, even though I used the word "ignorant" -- and strongly feel it applies when I used it (despite the lack of tact) -- we can't ignore that there seems to be significant (majority?) of people who will feel this way. We need an avenue to better explain the issues -- especially since they go outside Fedora itself. In other words, get a crapload of smarter and more civil people than myself together and hash them out. There's got to be a series of both marketing and possibly even technical solutions. On Wed, 2007-06-20 at 13:40 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Rodrigo, > Actually... I'd like to thank you for speaking up, especially about > something you are clearly passionate about. Just because not everyone > agrees with you 100% doesn't mean that you aren't being heard. Please, > keep up the good work (and the good fight)! The great thing about Freedom is also its greatest downfall, especially in an ignorant majority. Not everything is about ignorant majority. Basic social constructs themselves are about majority. Unfortunately, technical specifics tend to be about the expertise that only applies to a minority, and the ignorant majority must be careful not to let their majority view become the self-fulfilling truth -- outside that expertise. I see it regularly with engineering and law myself. Freedom requires careful consideration, due process and analysis -- not merely from an outsider, but as an insider, a stakeholder, someone who has a point to make. We have to remain vigilant in not merely a "stance," but our utmost consideration for the technical _specifics_ and real issues -- from copyright to licensing to trademark to technical ability or even just technical feasibility -- to implement that stance, if possible. That's why it's very important not to merely say "the FSF blah" but to put forth the concerned, technical argument and -- most importantly -- technical _solution_ that implements it. If you cannot provide a technical _solution_, then you must be considerate of the processes _already_ in place to best deal with such consideration, such due process, such "expertise" in moving forward. And as it has been suggested in many ways in this thread now, if you do _not_ like that still, then you are also _free_ to install your own organization, your own due process, your own "expertise" into solving the problem outside these existing processes. Otherwise, you accept the existing processes as they are, and you either take the time and effort to involve yourself in them, and its solution, or you decide to trust those who have already taken your views -- which are rarely (if never) unique -- into account and tried to accommodate them best. On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 01:08 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Sure. Do you want to do it? can you explain on what you consider 100% > Free? What the FSF does you fool! ;-> Seriously now, I don't know or think subjective -- or even if truly objective -- suggestions can and should be made outside of not just merely the Fedora board, but outside of many, community associations. And that includes maybe including this other entity ... like the FSF itself. ;-> What facilities, forums, etc... can Fedora advocates and/or contributors tap to get this discussion rolling? Especially in a more open, and probably more technical arena, to solve the real considerations that some people will have. Especially since it touches core design and implements in the kernel itself, especially as how all parties address firmware updates, run-time, etc... in drivers today. I mean, even though I used the word "ignorant" -- and strongly feel it applies when I used it (despite the lack of tact in doing so) -- we can't ignore that there seems to be significant (majority?) of people who will feel this way. We need an avenue to better explain the issues -- especially since they go outside Fedora itself. In other words, get a crapload of smarter and more civil people than myself (since I'm the stupidest and most ignorant fool in the world -- let alone a very biased and land-locked/narrow-minded American engineer) together and hash them out. There's got to be a series of both marketing (and possibly even technical solutions) to address this. But as I've pointed out, this is hardly Fedora on its own. -- Bryan "really going to STFU now" Smith -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Jun 21 13:46:56 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:46:56 +0000 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch Message-ID: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> After 4 years, I've gotta say it. I understand there are some legal issues or tardemark concerns showing the lineage of Red Hat Linux to Fedora Core. Plus there are also marketing aspects on Fedora v. Enterprise. But the general ignorance of those who have never followed the Red Hat / Fedora development line, or left after Red Hat Linux 9, constantly want proof and debate me. We *NEED* Red Hat, or at least via Fedora, to put up a page - linked on the front page - that covers both the 2-2-2 month Rawhide/Development-Beta/Test-Release cycle, followed by the 6-6/6-6-6/6-6-6-6 month release cycler of community to enterprise release (every 2-4 community releases). This would include the full plot going back to Red Hat Linux 4.0, as well as the first Red Hat Linux 6.2E (retroactively called "Enterprise 1"), and how that *PROVEN* lifecycle of package, integration and post-release test has held up. Especially with the regular cycle of community I'm tired of having virtually *NO* pages but my own to refer to on this, to the point I've been writing a book on Enterprise Configuration Management: Fedora/Red Hat Linux (of which I've had not time to complete in the last 18 months worth of 60+ hour/weeks of consultant, not including travel and other time). I used to maintain an unofficial FAQ on this, and I should probably re-blog an update of it. Fedora Core is not more "Beta" than Red Hat Linux was before it. And until Red Hat clarifies that - Enterprise Linux marketing be damned - those who want to demonize it that way will continue, with nothing professionals like myself can point to - other than our own publications or blog articles on the matter. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile From cnegus at rucls.net Thu Jun 21 15:49:57 2007 From: cnegus at rucls.net (Chris Negus) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:49:57 -0500 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 13:46 +0000, Bryan J Smith wrote: > Fedora Core is not more "Beta" than Red Hat Linux was before it. And until Red > Hat clarifies that - Enterprise Linux marketing be damned - those who want to > demonize it that way will continue, with nothing professionals like myself can > point to - other than our own publications or blog articles on the matter. I agree. Fedora is a weird case where reality is better than perception. Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as having: * Stable desktop and servers * Three years of security updates * Branding program with hardware manufacturers I think you could bring back a lot of the independent consultants who went to CentOS or elsewhere after the transition from Red Hat Linux. It could also quiet people who say cutting-edge = never-better-than-beta. -- Chris Negus From nushio at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 21 16:11:44 2007 From: nushio at fedoraproject.org (Juan Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:11:44 -0500 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> Message-ID: On 6/21/07, Chris Negus wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 13:46 +0000, Bryan J Smith wrote: > > Fedora Core is not more "Beta" than Red Hat Linux was before it. And > until Red > > Hat clarifies that - Enterprise Linux marketing be damned - those who > want to > > demonize it that way will continue, with nothing professionals like > myself can > > point to - other than our own publications or blog articles on the > matter. > > I agree. Fedora is a weird case where reality is better than perception. > > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as > having: > > * Stable desktop and servers > * Three years of security updates > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers > > I think you could bring back a lot of the independent consultants who > went to CentOS or elsewhere after the transition from Red Hat Linux. It > could also quiet people who say cutting-edge = never-better-than-beta. > > -- Chris Negus > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > Wouldn't that be like using Fedora 4 with years of updates? Fedora 5 support is ending soon, which means that software updates are no longer being provided. Using a 3 year old Fedora + patches wouldn't make it secure, it would make it old. Just my 2 cents. -- Juan M. Rodriguez Moreno Freelance Software Developer & Designer Fedora Ambassador Key fingerprint = 6201 742D 1092 92BF FB1E 3310 4731 5C14 520E 0258 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Thu Jun 21 16:08:04 2007 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Chris Negus wrote: > I agree. Fedora is a weird case where reality is better than perception. > > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as > having: > > * Stable desktop and servers > * Three years of security updates > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers > > I think you could bring back a lot of the independent consultants who > went to CentOS or elsewhere after the transition from Red Hat Linux. It > could also quiet people who say cutting-edge = never-better-than-beta. Red Hat only has so many resources to spare for long-term maintenance. Why? Because, as it turns out, it's pretty hard to do well -- and for that exact reason, it's worth a lot of money to Red Hat to do it well. So we do it for RHEL, and we do it for big bucks. There's nothing wrong with someone deciding to offer that kind of support. That was actually the point of Legacy -- and with all the tools available, a reformed Legacy group might be able to do that pretty well. But here's the question: who would join that effort when they could just get the same benefits from CentOS? And the answer is, basically, no one. The emergence of CentOS, one could argue, was the final nail in the coffin of the Legacy project. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Jun 21 16:47:30 2007 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:47:30 -0400 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> Message-ID: <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> On Thursday 21 June 2007 11:49:57 Chris Negus wrote: > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as > having: > > * Stable desktop and servers > * Three years of security updates > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers We do, it's called Red Hat Enterprise Linux. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com Thu Jun 21 18:01:23 2007 From: luya_tfz at thefinalzone.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:01:23 -0700 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <467ABCF3.5030904@thefinalzone.com> Bryan J Smith a ?crit : > After 4 years, I've gotta say it. I understand there are some legal issues or tardemark concerns showing the lineage of Red Hat Linux to Fedora Core. Plus there are also marketing aspects on Fedora v. Enterprise. But the general ignorance of those who have never followed the Red Hat / Fedora development line, or left after Red Hat Linux 9, constantly want proof and debate me. > > We *NEED* Red Hat, or at least via Fedora, to put up a page - linked on the front page - that covers both the 2-2-2 month Rawhide/Development-Beta/Test-Release cycle, followed by the 6-6/6-6-6/6-6-6-6 month release cycler of community to enterprise release (every 2-4 community releases). This would include the full plot going back to Red Hat Linux 4.0, as well as the first Red Hat Linux 6.2E (retroactively called "Enterprise 1"), and how that *PROVEN* lifecycle of package, integration and post-release test has held up. Especially with the regular cycle of community > > I'm tired of having virtually *NO* pages but my own to refer to on this, to the point I've been writing a book on Enterprise Configuration Management: Fedora/Red Hat Linux (of which I've had not time to complete in the last 18 months worth of 60+ hour/weeks of consultant, not including travel and other time). I used to maintain an unofficial FAQ on this, and I should probably re-blog an update of it. > > Fedora Core is not more "Beta" than Red Hat Linux was before it. And until Red Hat clarifies that - Enterprise Linux marketing be damned - those who want to demonize it that way will continue, with nothing professionals like myself can point to - other than our own publications or blog articles on the matter. > > -- > Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org > http://thebs413.blogspot.com > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > I have already beat you with early post =p https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2007-June/msg00186.html From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Jun 21 17:28:30 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:28:30 +0000 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> Message-ID: <413459872-1182446922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-848796768-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I think it would be redundant and a side-track to offer such. RHEL offers SLAs and other options, options that go hand-on-hand with its approach. For those that don't need SLAs, CentOS becomes and option (with caveats). Fedora continues to offer, as did Red Hat Linux prior, the leading edge in community development. Some releases offer less changes than others, with more proven integration and stability. Others offer more radical changes, which are required to move the codebase forward. At the most, I wish Fedora would move back to the release numbering prior to Red Hat Linux 8. Bring back the dot (".") and the big-dot-oh (".0") warning that the wrench has been thrown. That's one thing I missed once Red Hat Linux 9 came out, and wasn't numbered 8.1. I don't care if NPTL killed some compatibility, the attitude has always been ... X.0, we changed a lot X.1, only a few things changed (less likely RHEL fork) X.2, we really like what we have (more likely RHEL fork) X.3, oh, we could use another, the new stuff ain't ready yet But other than that nomenclature/meta aspect, there is *0* I'd change. Maybe support the last revision longer than the others, but that's about it. In fact, this could be used to support .0 releases not as long, and support only things that are more stable, more proven longer. But RHEL (and CentOS) don't need to be duplicated. Red Hat is 100% correct on how the segmented the lines, because each cater to the needs better of those they target. Other than that, people didn't care about the trademarks issues then. So they aren't really likely to care about understanding anything now. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Chris Negus Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:49:57 To:fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com Subject: Re: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 13:46 +0000, Bryan J Smith wrote: > Fedora Core is not more "Beta" than Red Hat Linux was before it. And until Red > Hat clarifies that - Enterprise Linux marketing be damned - those who want to > demonize it that way will continue, with nothing professionals like myself can > point to - other than our own publications or blog articles on the matter. I agree. Fedora is a weird case where reality is better than perception. Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as having: * Stable desktop and servers * Three years of security updates * Branding program with hardware manufacturers I think you could bring back a lot of the independent consultants who went to CentOS or elsewhere after the transition from Red Hat Linux. It could also quiet people who say cutting-edge = never-better-than-beta. -- Chris Negus -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Jun 21 17:39:52 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:39:52 +0000 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> Message-ID: <38273303-1182447615-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-298429104-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> People don't realize that trying to maintain updates on a release that is made every 6 months is unrealistic. As I accurately tracked, when Fedora Core 1 was released, Red Hat was supporting 6 simultaneous releases! The same thing happened mid-RHL 6.x release - all the way back to 4.2. Companies "standardized" on Red Hat Linux 7.1 and "didn't want to move" to RHL 7.2 - causing more release support issues. That's not feasible. Furthermore, hardware and software vendors are unwilling to recertify every 6 month release. And they were the ones that pushed (as I understand it) for a Red Hat Linux 6.2"E" with SLAs. SuSE Linux Enterprise 7 followed that, then Red Hat with RHAS/RHEL 2.1 based on Red Hat Linux 7.2 - and the rest is history. Companies that want longer-term support have to share in the costs of that - especially for backporting changes to maintain ABI/API and avoid regressions or interface changes. Trying to maintain a community release cycle of 6 months more than a year is not realistic. However, clarifying some things about Fedora's development - including making those "taboo" references to Red Hat Linux's history, would go a long way to finally *Smashing* the non-sense commentary and demonizations. Using a release numbering with a bit more "warnings" would help as well, but I'm sure I'm asking too much. That's my point, nothing more. It would be redundant and a waste of Fedora resources. Other projects that have attempted such have found themselves over-whelmed. You need the complementary release approach. Especially for leveraging one as a profit model to support the other. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Greg Dekoenigsberg Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:08:04 To:For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Chris Negus wrote: > I agree. Fedora is a weird case where reality is better than perception. > > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as > having: > > * Stable desktop and servers > * Three years of security updates > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers > > I think you could bring back a lot of the independent consultants who > went to CentOS or elsewhere after the transition from Red Hat Linux. It > could also quiet people who say cutting-edge = never-better-than-beta. Red Hat only has so many resources to spare for long-term maintenance. Why? Because, as it turns out, it's pretty hard to do well -- and for that exact reason, it's worth a lot of money to Red Hat to do it well. So we do it for RHEL, and we do it for big bucks. There's nothing wrong with someone deciding to offer that kind of support. That was actually the point of Legacy -- and with all the tools available, a reformed Legacy group might be able to do that pretty well. But here's the question: who would join that effort when they could just get the same benefits from CentOS? And the answer is, basically, no one. The emergence of CentOS, one could argue, was the final nail in the coffin of the Legacy project. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From wilmer at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 21 22:20:09 2007 From: wilmer at fedoraproject.org (Wilmer Jaramillo M.) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:20:09 -0400 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> Message-ID: <2b26c4260706211520h3ea71f36l57b2d4c5c07e6807@mail.gmail.com> On 6/21/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thursday 21 June 2007 11:49:57 Chris Negus wrote: > > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as > > having: > > > > * Stable desktop and servers > > * Three years of security updates > > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers > > We do, it's called Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Red Hat is not doubt the leader, But you do not mention the cost. I'm going to mention some words of the writer very healthily: "Perhaps a lesson from the Debian project is in order: release no distribution before its time. Fedora 7 developers have released a distribution that's not ready for prime time." Debian provides this type of structure in its distribution, maintaining a unstable version, must understood like "unstable safe" or a "stable risk", at the same time its to stay in bloody line of the technology adding efforts in maintaining a version completelly "stable", this does not means that Fedora cannot be used in production environment, (sometimes Fedora is considering as a experimental distributions) but I must recognize that it constitutes a risk, a sysadm know that a package must be consider stable "with time in the market production", its RHEL and CentOS and is here where maybe the branch stable Debian version wins. Fedora need a official stable release (as Debian stable or CentOS for RHEL) matters only for security updates version of choice for networks and servers for those for whom dependability matters more than the latest software, and on one hand the already customary itch out releases. I believe that Red Hat I do not want to create a new competition of RHEL and this is the reason for which a branch stable of Fedora is impossible beyond of operative costs that imply to maintain it. -- Wilmer Jaramillo M. GPG Key Fingerprint = 0666 D0D3 24CE 8935 9C24 BBF1 87DD BEA2 A4B2 1E8A From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 21 22:49:11 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:19:11 +0530 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <2b26c4260706211520h3ea71f36l57b2d4c5c07e6807@mail.gmail.com> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> <2b26c4260706211520h3ea71f36l57b2d4c5c07e6807@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <467B0067.90303@fedoraproject.org> Wilmer Jaramillo M. wrote: > On 6/21/07, Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Thursday 21 June 2007 11:49:57 Chris Negus wrote: >> > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora >> > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as >> > having: >> > >> > * Stable desktop and servers >> > * Three years of security updates >> > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers >> >> We do, it's called Red Hat Enterprise Linux. > > Red Hat is not doubt the leader, But you do not mention the cost. > What cost? Rebuilds are available for gratis downloads. End users pay for support and services. Fedora need a official stable > release (as Debian stable or CentOS for RHEL) matters only for > security updates version of choice for networks and servers for those > for whom dependability matters more than the latest software, and on > one hand the already customary itch out releases. Common misconception is that RHEL updates are only security fixes. This is far from true. There are some selected features backported into major update cycles. For example, RHEL 4.5 added limited para virtualization support. > I believe that Red Hat I do not want to create a new competition of > RHEL and this is the reason for which a branch stable of Fedora is > impossible beyond of operative costs that imply to maintain it. If you mean "stable" as in relatively unchanging then Fedora isn't tied to that goal. The value of RHEL is precisely because there is some real costs in maintaining a commercial product with associated service level guarantees. Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Jun 21 23:06:51 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:06:51 +0000 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <467B0067.90303@fedoraproject.org> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net><2b26c4260706211520h3ea71f36l57b2d4c5c07e6807@mail.gmail.com><467B0067.90303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <511803571-1182467286-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1779363600-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I wish Debian users would stop and understand the reasons for the DCC release. Unchanging ABI/API and LSB run-time compliance for one. Kudos to the Debian project in general, especially since they support more than one ABI/API "set" per release (I.e., different GCC, GLibC, kernel, etc...). Of course, those decisions come with their own costs - both in workload, release cycle and compatibility. But the negatives are also a major, driving reason behind the DCC releases. I might be long removed from Debian now, and would not even attempt to dissect it. But one thing is the honest truth: the Fedora (and RHEL) and Debian (and DCC) release lifecycles are *NOT* even remotely comparable. In fact, as I detailed in my other post, Debian and many other distros have directly benefitted from RHL/Fedora by "waiting" on their "shake down." Now if you really want to talk about "different," we can start looking a "ports" distros instead of "packages" ones. E.g., Gentoo It even applies far less and cannot be compared at all, no matter how much people try to fit Portage into the comparison. When I want early/bleeding edge, source access, I'm at Gentoo - especially in initial development/adoption. When I want leading edge, but integration tested, software packages, I'm at Fedora - especially for core development/adoption. When I'm want proven, integration tested and regression and change avoidance, I'm at RHEL - especially for long-term release and support. Debian offers you more flexibility, but I've also been hit by bad, unforseen interface changes and regressions in package updates years after initial release. It's hard, damn hard, to balance new features against proven, fixed ABI/API standards. That's why the split lead-edge v. backport packages distros - like RHL/Fedora v. RHEL "just work." And when I need to get to pre-Fedora adopted (e.g., Rawhide-state or even earlier) source, then I have to hit the source, so I just go Gentoo. But only for select development systems or more embedded developments. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Rahul Sundaram Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:19:11 To:For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Subject: Re: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch Wilmer Jaramillo M. wrote: > On 6/21/07, Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Thursday 21 June 2007 11:49:57 Chris Negus wrote: >> > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora >> > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as >> > having: >> > >> > * Stable desktop and servers >> > * Three years of security updates >> > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers >> >> We do, it's called Red Hat Enterprise Linux. > > Red Hat is not doubt the leader, But you do not mention the cost. > What cost? Rebuilds are available for gratis downloads. End users pay for support and services. Fedora need a official stable > release (as Debian stable or CentOS for RHEL) matters only for > security updates version of choice for networks and servers for those > for whom dependability matters more than the latest software, and on > one hand the already customary itch out releases. Common misconception is that RHEL updates are only security fixes. This is far from true. There are some selected features backported into major update cycles. For example, RHEL 4.5 added limited para virtualization support. > I believe that Red Hat I do not want to create a new competition of > RHEL and this is the reason for which a branch stable of Fedora is > impossible beyond of operative costs that imply to maintain it. If you mean "stable" as in relatively unchanging then Fedora isn't tied to that goal. The value of RHEL is precisely because there is some real costs in maintaining a commercial product with associated service level guarantees. Rahul -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From b.j.smith at ieee.org Thu Jun 21 22:51:08 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (=?utf-8?B?QnJ5YW4gSiBTbWl0aA==?=) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:51:08 +0000 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <2b26c4260706211520h3ea71f36l57b2d4c5c07e6807@mail.gmail.com> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein><200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net><2b26c4260706211520h3ea71f36l57b2d4c5c07e6807@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <885465098-1182466683-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-376789722-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Sorry, FUD. 1. The Debian (and DCC) and Fedora (and RHEL) release models are not comparable. Some of us have been Debian maintainers and we'll be the first to tell you that. ;) 2. Fedora is quite stable for production use, especially in an environment with AFS or NFS and other UNIX infrastructure. A lot of that has to do with Fedora's focus on enterprise features. 3. The release model for Fedora was _already_proven_ by no less than 15 Red Hat Linux releases. It remains unchanged now. The "release often" model is not an issue, it's a requirement of the lifecycle. Why oh why do people have to compare Fedora to other distros? If you don't like the proven RHL/Fedora release model and lifecycle, at least stop to understand it. If you prefer Debian's lifecycle, by all means, go for it! But let us not forget these realities ... What distro put forth GLibC 2 (threaded libC)? What distro put forth GCC 3 (ANSI C++ compliance)? What distro put forth NPTL (various threading/compat)? What distro put forth SELinux (MAC/RBAC)? People talk about Red Hat Linux, then Fedora Core, "breaking things." People are still talking about how Red Hat Linux 5 "broke everything." Same deal for 7, 9 and Fedora Core 2, without stopping to wonder why. No one steps back to realize the _massive_effort_ it took to adopt these radical changes. They just look at Debian or some other distro some year or two later and say - "oh, we waited until it was stable." Um, no. Sorry. You waited until another distro adopted something, including redeveloping many core components, and then all other developers/maintainers had to accommodate, and reaped the benefits of that after-the-fact. All while blaming it on Red Hat Linux, now Fedora, two fold - complaining about the change and incompatibility, then hypocritically saying you waited on the compatibility. Sorry, putting something into Sid isn't the same as a major, refactored Red Hat Linux / Fedora release. It takes a crapload of effort to make massive, core changes, just to get to that release. And that still doesn't address the issues post-release of added software, which also has to be refactored. It's then, and only then, we get the necessary, concerted effort to "move forward." Not by sitting back and waiting for someone like Red Hat to force the issue and projects to accomodate. Also remeber the percentage of contributions Red Hat developers make to various projects, to help them refactor and redevelop after major changes. -- Bryan J Smith - mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Wilmer Jaramillo M." Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:20:09 To:"For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base" Subject: Re: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch On 6/21/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thursday 21 June 2007 11:49:57 Chris Negus wrote: > > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > > release every three or four releases? You could promote the release as > > having: > > > > * Stable desktop and servers > > * Three years of security updates > > * Branding program with hardware manufacturers > > We do, it's called Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Red Hat is not doubt the leader, But you do not mention the cost. I'm going to mention some words of the writer very healthily: "Perhaps a lesson from the Debian project is in order: release no distribution before its time. Fedora 7 developers have released a distribution that's not ready for prime time." Debian provides this type of structure in its distribution, maintaining a unstable version, must understood like "unstable safe" or a "stable risk", at the same time its to stay in bloody line of the technology adding efforts in maintaining a version completelly "stable", this does not means that Fedora cannot be used in production environment, (sometimes Fedora is considering as a experimental distributions) but I must recognize that it constitutes a risk, a sysadm know that a package must be consider stable "with time in the market production", its RHEL and CentOS and is here where maybe the branch stable Debian version wins. Fedora need a official stable release (as Debian stable or CentOS for RHEL) matters only for security updates version of choice for networks and servers for those for whom dependability matters more than the latest software, and on one hand the already customary itch out releases. I believe that Red Hat I do not want to create a new competition of RHEL and this is the reason for which a branch stable of Fedora is impossible beyond of operative costs that imply to maintain it. -- Wilmer Jaramillo M. GPG Key Fingerprint = 0666 D0D3 24CE 8935 9C24 BBF1 87DD BEA2 A4B2 1E8A -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From cnegus at rucls.net Fri Jun 22 14:53:29 2007 From: cnegus at rucls.net (Chris Negus) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:53:29 -0500 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1182440997.10033.121.camel@einstein> <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> Message-ID: <1182524009.10033.258.camel@einstein> On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 12:47 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thursday 21 June 2007 11:49:57 Chris Negus wrote: > > Has anyone on the Fedora project considered making one stable Fedora > > release every three or four releases? > > We do, it's called Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Yes, I should have expected that. Thanks Jesse ;-) I guess I overstated my case. As someone who actively promotes Fedora, I sometimes feel frustrated that the quality the Fedora project achieves (with most releases) is overshadowed by some people's beliefs that you shouldn't really try to do anything with Fedora since it's unstable. Maybe what I can do is write up a case study of what people actually have success doing with Fedora. Deployments in schools, homes or small businesses. In other words, Fedora project doesn't have to guarantee anything, but it can say what others have done. Perhaps someone could point me to some Fedora success stories to get me started. Anyway, thanks for other suggestions on this thread to create and support my own distro from Fedora. That is not the least bit likely (although I did make a pretty cool Fedora 7 8GB install DVD image with one pungi command... thanks again to Jesse). -- Chris Negus From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Jun 22 14:53:04 2007 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:53:04 -0400 Subject: Linux.org: The Feodra 7 Year Itch In-Reply-To: <1182524009.10033.258.camel@einstein> References: <2076823659-1182433631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1007000392-@bxe038.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <200706211247.30977.jkeating@j2solutions.net> <1182524009.10033.258.camel@einstein> Message-ID: <200706221053.04920.jkeating@j2solutions.net> On Friday 22 June 2007 10:53:29 Chris Negus wrote: > Maybe what I can do is write up a case study of what people actually > have success doing with Fedora. Deployments in schools, homes or small > businesses. In other words, Fedora project doesn't have to guarantee > anything, but it can say what others have done. Perhaps someone could > point me to some Fedora success stories to get me started. This would be helpful indeed. Many places refresh every 12 months or quicker anyway so Fedora provides them a very useful target. A place on the wiki to start gathering such success stories would go a long way I bet. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 20:14:50 2007 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:14:50 +0300 Subject: Fedora Project - Response to GITEX Questiionnaire Message-ID: <9d2c731f0706221314t18f7c05aj5c721174f93ce8d5@mail.gmail.com> Mr. Samer: Here is the Fedora Project's response to your questionnaire concerning our organization. I am the primary contact for the Fedora Project for this event. Please direct any future correspondence to me and I will be happy to handle any of your requests in preparation for GITEX. Best Regards, John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project 1. What does your company do? The Fedora Project (www.fedoraproject.org) is a collection of projects sponsored by Red Hat (www.redhat.com) and developed as a partnership between the open source community and Red Hat engineers. The goal of Fedora is the rapid progress of free and open source software (FOSS) and content. Public forums. Open processes. Rapid innovation. Meritocracy and transparency. All in pursuit of the best operating system and platform that free software (http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html) can provide. 2. What are your company's key product lines and services? Our key product is the Fedora Linux distribution. It comes out twice a year or so. It's completely free, and we're committed to keeping it that way. It's the best combination of robust and latest software that exists in the Free software world. Our mindset is Doing the Right Thing. To us, that means providing Free and open source software, at no cost, freely usable, modifiable, redistributable, and unencumbered by software patents. 3. Why is your company appearing at GITEX Technology Week? The Fedora Project is part of the free and open source (FOSS) movement, which is currently revolutionizing the way companies, large and small, do business using cutting-edge information technology. We want to encourage the use of FOSS products and approaches among the business community in the Middle East. 4. What products or services will your company be promoting at the show? The Fedora 7 Linux distribution is our primary "product". A full-featured operating system and suite of applications, Fedora 7 is also the basis for the award-winning Red Hat Enterprise Linux, the One Laptop Per Child OS, and various other Linux-based systems. Our "services" are enabling businesses to apply Linux and other open source products, like Firefox web browser or OpenOffice.org office suite, to solve their IT challenges, by developing and distributing a world-class operating system and collection of Free software. 5. What does your company hope to achieve by appearing at GITEX Technology Week? The Fedora Project hopes to promote the further adoption of Free and Open Source technologies in the enterprise business community in the Middle East. 6. How important is GITEX Technology Week to your company's success in the Middle East? GITEX Technology Week is important to us because it gives us the opportunity to meet a very significant cross-section of businesses in the Middle East region. 7. How does your company feel about the Middle East market and the opportunities it presents? The Fedora Project recognizes the tremendous growth of information and communications technologies (ICT) in the region. Free and open source software allow companies to optimize their IT expenditures and invest their budgets wisely. We also have a strong team focussed on internationalization (I18N) and localization (L10N) efforts to meet the needs of end users in this region. 8. What are your 3 strategic business objectives within the Arabian market for 2007? 1. To promote the adoption of Free, open source software and content in the Middle East region. 2. To promote greater awareness of all the options for implementing business solutions. 3. To encourage regional participation in the development of free and open source solutions. From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 02:06:54 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:06:54 -0300 Subject: LinuxMall Message-ID: <3668180e0706251906o4b6df557x692bc0dd026bcc11@mail.gmail.com> Hello Guys! Here in Brazil we have a Linux Mall http://www.linuxmall.com.br/ This site sell fedora itens like T-shirts, Caps, Pens and others, but, this site dont contribute with the community and i think, dont has permission to sell fedora itens Fedora is a trademark of red hat, so the site would need the Red hat autorization ? I'm right ? Rodrigo Padula http://www.projetofedora.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 26 03:09:30 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:39:30 +0530 Subject: LinuxMall In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706251906o4b6df557x692bc0dd026bcc11@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706251906o4b6df557x692bc0dd026bcc11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4680836A.8010500@fedoraproject.org> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > Hello Guys! > > Here in Brazil we have a Linux Mall > > http://www.linuxmall.com.br/ > > This site sell fedora itens like T-shirts, Caps, Pens and others, but, > this site dont contribute with the community and i think, dont has > permission to sell fedora itens > > Fedora is a trademark of red hat, so the site would need the Red hat > autorization ? > > I'm right ? Right. Contributing back to the community is not a trademark requirement but explicit permission for the logo is. It would be nice if they do contribute back as some percentage of their profits however. If you can, send them a polite mail and point them to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo (assuming they do use it). Rahul From rodrigopadula at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 03:42:47 2007 From: rodrigopadula at gmail.com (Rodrigo Padula) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:42:47 -0300 Subject: LinuxMall In-Reply-To: <4680836A.8010500@fedoraproject.org> References: <3668180e0706251906o4b6df557x692bc0dd026bcc11@mail.gmail.com> <4680836A.8010500@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3668180e0706252042o407cc413u297a8d8bd4cd193f@mail.gmail.com> How can i send a mail to this company with this solicitation? On 6/26/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Rodrigo Padula wrote: > > Hello Guys! > > > > Here in Brazil we have a Linux Mall > > > > http://www.linuxmall.com.br/ > > > > This site sell fedora itens like T-shirts, Caps, Pens and others, but, > > this site dont contribute with the community and i think, dont has > > permission to sell fedora itens > > > > Fedora is a trademark of red hat, so the site would need the Red hat > > autorization ? > > > > I'm right ? > > Right. Contributing back to the community is not a trademark requirement > but explicit permission for the logo is. It would be nice if they do > contribute back as some percentage of their profits however. > > If you can, send them a polite mail and point them to > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo (assuming they do use it). > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 26 03:57:16 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:27:16 +0530 Subject: LinuxMall In-Reply-To: <3668180e0706252042o407cc413u297a8d8bd4cd193f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3668180e0706251906o4b6df557x692bc0dd026bcc11@mail.gmail.com> <4680836A.8010500@fedoraproject.org> <3668180e0706252042o407cc413u297a8d8bd4cd193f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46808E9C.5090606@fedoraproject.org> Rodrigo Padula wrote: > How can i send a mail to this company with this solicitation? > They must have a contact address on their website. Just write a mail and inform them or were you asking a different question? Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 15:32:05 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:32:05 -0800 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <1182367881.21966.517.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> <1182367881.21966.517.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910706280832i575d288cy83200c62ab5a4816@mail.gmail.com> On 6/20/07, Karsten Wade wrote: > When you have created a package repo that can support all those > personality types, then you have a model for Utopia. But is it reasonable for people to expect Fedora to have a set of tools that let settlers feel like they are trail-blazers? To abuse your analogy for a few moments more.... brick and mortar trail-blazer know with intimate detail how difficult the environment will be on a daily basis... in fact they almost cherish the difficulty. brick and mortar settlers on the other hand want absolutely none of those very real dangers and difficulties.. but love to vacations and pretend to be trailblazers and pioneers... and they tend to need to sign liability waivers in case they get hurt while on vacation. I'm perfectly fine with trailblazer and pioneer repos, full of alternative builds or new things, that are intrinsicly more difficult to deal with. I'm not so fine with a set of tools aimed at settlers that encourages them to play in the more dangerous spaces without a liability waiver analogy. -jef"there is a reason that only 1 in 4 families who claimed land during the landrush of the mid-western united states were able to survive more than one winter."spaleta From b.j.smith at ieee.org Fri Jun 29 18:19:38 2007 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:19:38 -0400 Subject: 3rd party repositories vs the floppy disk In-Reply-To: <604aa7910706280832i575d288cy83200c62ab5a4816@mail.gmail.com> References: <4677CBC9.5050909@fxdev.com> <4677DE25.10900@kanarip.com> <1182367881.21966.517.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910706280832i575d288cy83200c62ab5a4816@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1183141178.3732.22.camel@portatux64.mobile.smithconcepts.com> On 6/20/07, Karsten Wade wrote: > When you have created a package repo that can support all those > personality types, then you have a model for Communism is an utopia. People forget that some of the best and greatest communist utopias -- city-sized/wide -- were founded in the US. Utopias work when everyone agrees and holds each other accountable. You don't need processes or rules or denials, because everyone just works together. For an engineer like myself, communism is the ultimate ideal and efficiency -- which is why, not surprisingly -- the Soviet Communist Party was dominated by engineers. And it utterly _fails_ when you have an organization large enough were personal accountability is not feasible, people _differ_ on goals. And that eventually results in another structure, be it of merit (meritocratic-republic) or majority (democratic-republic) or otherwise. And that's where others yet just won't deal with any "process" they consider is "wrong." How you address that, there's _no_ "silver bullet." In the US, we engineers studied microeconomics and its microcosm of technical feasibility, market aspects and various limits -- despite it's gross inefficiencies and sheer "unfairness" in comparison -- because we believe capitalism, and the efforts people put towards its incentives, is one way we know that works for us. Not that it's perfect. Not that it doesn't stomp on people. And Americans engineers will be the first to tell you that "freedom" isn't about "fair." I've had this argument with people in the CentOS project, various, major maintainers like DAG and others, who constantly complain about the "processes" and "inconsideration" that the Fedora Project imposes to be a contributor. But guess what? Debian has its "rules." Many other projects have their "rules" as well. And yes, it's driven somewhat by an agenda of -- ultimately -- Red Hat, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a "bad idea." Especially when it comes to not merely just package-level testing, but more importantly, integration testing and regression avoidance. Those right there are very, very important characteristics of a properly tuned engineering lifecycle. While it would be great if we could all work directly together like a single, engineering team -- and individual software projects and packages included by and for Fedora can do that -- it still doesn't solve the larger issues of integration testing and regression avoidance. So what is the "utopia"? I don't know, but I can tell you one thing for certain. When people _differ_ on what that is, it's a great sign that it's _not_ possible at all. So that's where the "rules" -- which we engineers call things such as "requirements" and "specifications" and "reviews" -- that matter. And yes, market considerations -- oh those inconsiderate, "evil enterprise" thoughts that Red Hat sometimes "pushes" on the "community" comes out as Red Hat employees work on Fedora, just like they do the kernel, GCC, GLibC, etc... -- are there, especially when people don't feel they don't represent "the will of the [Linux] people." But Fedora, like any other "community" project survives on its contributors. And those contributors have built a set of processes and requirements and foci base on their time, energy and efforts. If people who want to contribute, but claim they do not, because they claim "Fedora," or worse yet, "Red Hat doesn't care" -- then they are free to fork and do what they wish. And we have continually seen what happens in the majority of cases (although not all), those efforts die off. And the few that remain do remain because those contributors can work within a set of rules and realizations that there's a lot of effort required. "Utopia"? That term ranks up there with my other favorite, non-tangible term that people like to use as if it's a finite, discrete product or service -- "Renewable." On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 07:32 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I'm perfectly fine with trailblazer and pioneer repos, full of > alternative builds or new things, that are intrinsicly more difficult > to deal with. I'm not so fine with a set of tools aimed at settlers > that encourages them to play in the more dangerous spaces without a > liability waiver analogy. > -jef"there is a reason that only 1 in 4 families who claimed land > during the landrush of the mid-western united states were able to > survive more than one winter."spaleta Those who contribute and make Fedora are the ones who set the "requirements" and "reviews" to be in Fedora. They don't set those details lightly, and they don't set them to "control" the process without the utmost consideration for all. Everyone is "free" to contribute, as long as they respect those processes. Those who don't are free to consider other, alternative mechanisms and approaches outside of those processes. Some do, and they do a great job. I'll always appreciate those who have their own ways of making things work. But those who complain about the "control" on Fedora or -- more directly, Red Hat -- often use the same "it's not fair" I hear of so many processes and systems. It's _never_ been about "fair," it's only been about consideration for those who came before them, what they thought worked, and how they worked together -- "freely" not "fairly." Most people agree what "free" is. Few people agree what "fair" is. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance mailto:b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com -------------------------------------------------------- Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution